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Geek Culture / The Microsoft era is coming to an end

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Quik
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Posted: 7th Aug 2012 00:41
Quote: "But if you're doing financially well in this example, there is no need for greed."


How does it hurt anyone?

Quote: "Take for example Apple and Microsoft."

While they may be "greedy", look at all the softwares they have provided you with.



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ionstream
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Posted: 7th Aug 2012 00:47
Quote: "I was quoting jerichos post:
", or stolen keys and you own way to compile (maybe a compilation step isn't needed?), sign and push out the software."
And answering to that, not sure how you could've missed that but.."


Again, this makes no sense because you have absolutely no idea what you are talking about - it's not like a CD key. There are no "keygenerators" in digital signatures. There are the private keys (a long string), certificates, and the key signing software, which is typically OpenSSL. This kind of encryption is very secure and the only way to break it is to either get a hold of a private key, or exploit some bug in the hardware, PS3 style.

Indicium
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Posted: 7th Aug 2012 00:47
I agree with Jerico.

Quote: " Don't try to get more money unless you really do need it"


So you work hard for your money, and you want more, so you work longer and harder, that's greed? No.


They see me coding, they hating. http://indi-indicium.blogspot.co.uk/
Melancholic
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Posted: 7th Aug 2012 01:17
Quote: " Look at our economy..."


Most of the world’s economy is in a recession at the moment, it would be logical that to stop it receding output needs to increase, output can only increase if people buy more, more then they need. If you define greed as you have, as acquiring more than you need, then greed is positive for an economy.


I can count to banana...
Airslide
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Posted: 7th Aug 2012 01:39 Edited at: 7th Aug 2012 01:41
Unix may be more inherently safer than Windows, but until the major Linux distributions are *really* tested against the kind of malware Windows users face everyday, can we really judge it?

Quote: "Yes but there's no way it could harm a Linux system as badly as it can harm a Windows system. It wouldn't be able to access much without permission, and even if the user does "accidentally" give it permission, it's impossible for the malware to change any system files."


The most recent Linux distribution I have used was Ubuntu, and it supported system updates. Clearly it is possible for system files to be modified, and even if it would be extraordinarily difficult, someone may someday find a way to piggy back on the update process or trick the OS somehow to give it that sort of privilege.

Even if they couldn't, the real scary malware isn't what erratically destroys system files, but what harvests valuable information. Passwords, bank accounts, personal files. The operating system can be replaced, but identity theft is harder to deal with. And even if the OS restricts access to files through a sandboxing system - like Apple is pushing more and more - there's always the chance the malware will utilize an exploit in the OS to violate the rules.
bitJericho
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Posted: 7th Aug 2012 02:40 Edited at: 7th Aug 2012 02:44
Quote: "Again, this makes no sense because you have absolutely no idea what you are talking about - it's not like a CD key. There are no "keygenerators" in digital signatures. There are the private keys (a long string), certificates, and the key signing software, which is typically OpenSSL. This kind of encryption is very secure and the only way to break it is to either get a hold of a private key, or exploit some bug in the hardware, PS3 style."


Yes that's what I'm saying... The wait for finding some bug or determining the key would be very long. How long, for example, did it take to figure out the Wii signing key, the PS3 root key, etc. If we allow UEFI and eventually Windows restricts it so manufacturers are not allowed to provide new keys, disable secure boot, etc, we as hobbyists, enthusiasts, etc, will be very restricted.

Dark Java Dude 64
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Posted: 7th Aug 2012 02:43
Ok then... What would be one of you guy's definition of greed? Just curious.
Quik
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Posted: 7th Aug 2012 02:45
Quote: "Ok then... What would be one of you guy's definition of greed? Just curious."


Pretty much what you said there: Wanting more than you need.
But I do not see anything wrong with it



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Dark Java Dude 64
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Posted: 7th Aug 2012 04:06 Edited at: 7th Aug 2012 04:07
Meh... That's your opinion, I suppose. I dunno. I just don't think greed is always good! People who tend to be greedy come across to me as very dicky.
DeadTomGC
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Posted: 7th Aug 2012 05:55
The only reason I use windows is because there is already so much support for it. Support however, comes from people (developers to be specific). If more developers use linux, then I will too. (I hope there is a take over of some open source OS (obviously Linux is really the only one right now))


Aaron Miller
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Posted: 7th Aug 2012 06:02
Quote: "I've just about had it with Microsoft. Windows XP was a great experience and so was Windows 7, but Microsoft isn't a company driven by innovation, it's domination was driven by the company's alleged monopolistic and anti-competitive business practices which supposedly killed any competition and made it the market leader."

Hi! I like GNU/Linux and Windows NT.

Quote: "The future of computing almost certainly lies in open source software. Microsoft has seen this upcoming wave as well and is trying to counter it by forcing the manufacturers to lock the BIOS so it can only run signed operating systems, which pretty much means that your machine will only be able to run Windows."

(1) That's only true for ARM devices, which makes sense given the entire phone industry is locked down that way. (There are a few exceptions, but not many.)
(2) For x86/x86-64 UEFI developers don't have to force a lock in. They just have to support secure boot, and it can be turned on or off. It's a fringe benefit, but a giant inconvenience. Regardless, Ubuntu and Fedora will have their own keys. That doesn't tell me anything about a lock-in.
(3) I don't support secure boot, btw.

Quote: "Gabe Newell worked hard together with the open source community to crush these bugs and bottlenecks."

I'm not familiar with him working directly with the open source community. According to the original blog post:
Quote: "We’ve been working with NVIDIA, AMD, and Intel to improve graphic driver performance on Linux."

So not quite the open source community. Closed businesses communicating with closed businesses for proprietary products. But hey, everyone benefits from using proprietary drivers now. Except for, you know, that whole not being open source thing.

Quote: "Further, Gabe Newell referred to Windows 8 as a "catastrophe", driving Valve to embrace Linux"

He has opinions. So does everybody. One of the D.I.C.E. Battlefield 3 engine (Frostbite 2) developers (Johann Anderson, iirc; not bothering to find the tweet) said he liked Windows 8 because it was "closer to what a console offers."

Quote: "Guys, cross platform development is the future of game creation. Microsoft is sinking as we speak, it's time to jump ship and embrace the future."

Cross platform support is the now of game creation. Look at what everybody has been doing for years? Scrambling to get support for multiple platforms. Frostbite 2, id Tech 5, CryENGINE, etc, all support PC, PS3, and Xbox 360. That's cross platform. And, it's not like they get to use the same rendering API everywhere. (Though, there's an abstraction layer.) They have to write code for a PC API (GL or D3D), a PS3 API (PSGL or GCM), or a XB360 API (~D3D9). Then there's mobile phones. Supporting Android and iOS is an annoying thing, but at least OpenGL ES works, right? No. The core rendering API (so OpenGL ES itself) works, but how you actually create a context is different across platforms (and supporting the newest Android isn't always an option, so EGL can't necessarily be used for everything without extra code). But, I think what you're calling for is GNU/Linux support. I love the concept of GNU/Linux, but it never works. I've tried it on seven or eight different PCs, each with a different configuration. It never worked completely correctly for me (especially in the driver department). Same with a friend of mine, but it almost never works for him either. At one point, I switched to using only the terminal of GNU/Linux (no desktop manager or anything). I was able to play music, write code (emacs; can't stand vi), and do all sorts of things with the terminal... Except OpenGL.

The thing is, how do you expect to get any sort of profit on desktop GNU/Linux? Yeah, it's doable. But, you're not going to make a lot. (That said, supporting GNU/Linux is pretty a given if you're supporting OS X. They have most of the same underlying APIs. Just swap out Cocoa for X11/GLX.)

Quote: "Or, you can stay back on your restricted Windows machine with a horrible Metro UI and closed software."

Microsoft actually announced they're not using the name Metro anymore. They'll be making an announcement for its new official name soon (within a week; don't remember exactly when).

Quote: "I dearly hope TGC sees this opportunity and ports their products so they work with Linux, it would be a very wise move on their part."

AGK runs on Android, right? Android is powered by the Linux kernel. Ergo, they have support for "Linux." (Yes, I realize that's not what you meant.)

Quote: "Now I know that a huge discussion about "DirectX 11 vs OpenGL 3" is going to commence and before you say anything about that I'd just like to say that there's one big thing that DirectX doesn't have: It's an open source community. The potential of OpenGL is so much greater than DirectX, all it needs is a little push (which Gabe Newell has already done actually)."

(1) Direct3D 11 versus OpenGL 4.
(2) OpenGL is an old decaying API and Khronos didn't make any decent advances to it; only catch up. I'll elaborate my points below.

Feature Levels
D3D11 has feature levels, which lets the programmer use the same API to target different levels of hardware. The shading language is the same still. The bytecode is the same still. All the draw calls and everything is still the same. What's different is what's supported. e.g., D3D_FEATURE_LEVEL_9_3 (and below) doesn't have support for geometry shaders, or hull and domain shaders, but the D3D11 API can still be used to target that hardware. That's a very nice thing to have.

OpenGL has compatibility and core profiles. That's... just horrible. In a compatibility profile things will end up getting emulated (not that it doesn't happen with D3D11 feature levels, but it happens less there in my experience). And, the issue with GL there is that you have no idea what's getting emulated. Although the API "stays the same" (mostly), there's a huge mess of extensions to manage and it's just a tangled mess to manage. At least with D3D11 feature levels you have a decent idea of what the hardware is capable of because each feature level requires a set of minimum specs.

Bytecode Shaders
D3D11 has them. They make load times quicker. It decouples the compiler implementation from the driver implementation, thus reducing potential for bugs. (Implementing a C-like compiler for shading languages is a bug prone task. Much more so for an optimizing compiler, which is necessary for real-time apps.)

GL doesn't have them. At all. You have text-based assembly shaders, which aren't supported by anyone anymore except NVIDIA through specific extensions. Then there's GLSL. GLSL doesn't support a lot. No semantics and annotations like HLSL/FX (which allows for automating shaders across multiple engines). Instead all variables have to be named the same. (This can be annoying for people who have different naming conventions. e.g., "gVar," "g_var," "Var," etc.) Plus the GLSL has to be compiled. Much worse, it has to be compiled by the GL implementation.

Extensions
D3D11 doesn't really have them. You can use QueryInterface() on interfaces, but you would have to figure out what sort of interfaces you can query. This would be cool if Microsoft had an extension registry like the ARB. But they don't. With D3D9 you had the FOURCC formats for doing interesting things. Same with D3DRS_POINTSIZE (iirc). You could configure the hardware through these interfaces. Alas, there appears to be no trace of them. (If I'm wrong, someone, please, correct me. I would love to have access to some docs showing extensions for D3D11.)

GL has them. They're really handy. My favorite ones right now? GL_AMD_pinned_memory, GL_AMD_sparse_textures (for partially resident textures), GL_KHR_texture_compression_astc_ldr. (Oh, and GL_NV_uniform_memory_buffer~ and similar "bindless" extensions. Oh! And WGL/GLX_EXT_swap_control_tear.)

Programming against innovative extensions like this can really help out.

-------------------

Okay, all that said, I like OpenGL and Direct3D 11. But, managing OpenGL is horrible. D3D11 has a much nicer interface to me. Even id Software (they use OpenGL in their games) agrees that D3D11 is the nicer interface. Look at this from TGC's perspective though. OpenGL is inconsistent across different platforms. There will inevitably be a plethora of bugs to fix. And really, can you think of a reasonable way to replace FX files with GLSL shaders? (There's the Unity ShaderLab approach, which combines with Cg and GLSL and does some offline processing before feeding shaders to the game.) I wish OpenGL had evolved. :/

Cheers,
Aaron

ionstream
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Posted: 7th Aug 2012 06:08
@Jerico: You are right, I was responding to Quik though. He just had a quote of yours nested in his, so maybe it looked like I was responding to you.

DeadTomGC
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Posted: 7th Aug 2012 06:45
@Aaron Miller I do not know nearly as much as you about the DirectX vs OpenGL situation, but there is not doubt in my mind that if more people start using OpenGL, it will get better.


Aaron Miller
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Posted: 7th Aug 2012 07:18
One other thing: there's no OpenGL support in (what is formerly known as) Metro. Check the APIs; there's no way to create a context. (If anyone finds a way to do so, lot me know.)

Cheers,
Aaron

Kevin Picone
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Posted: 7th Aug 2012 07:56
Windows is dying a horrible death here. They've successful managed to segment up the platform, XP , Vista / Win7, (32bit / 64bit). Largely through failing to reinforce the real benefits to the great unwashed masses of the move up the tree.

I'll end up upgrading at some point, but in no hurry.

Aaron Miller
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Posted: 7th Aug 2012 08:35
Quote: "I'll end up upgrading at some point, but in no hurry."

Oddly enough, the developer preview worked on my machine (pretty well too!) but the consumer preview claimed I needed a "more powerful CPU." That irked me enough to put off upgrading as well. Granted, it is only like $40 or so to upgrade (as opposed to $100~$120+).

Also, the interface is horrible on a desktop. I can't stand it. I like the new "style" to the apps, but not how I have to interact with it. I feel like I'm staring at a web page or a toy, not an operating system. That's probably more so what the users want, but for me... That's a slap in the face.

Cheers,
Aaron

Quik
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Posted: 7th Aug 2012 09:19
Quote: "Meh... That's your opinion, I suppose. I dunno. I just don't think greed is always good! People who tend to be greedy come across to me as very dicky."

never said it was ALWAYS good, just that it isnt always bad.



Whose eyes are those eyes?
AngelTheKiller
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Posted: 7th Aug 2012 09:54
I liked windows 8 for like 2 days but it got harder to find files when there's no start menu. I think it can be alright for a tablet but for a computer? No. Wish they stayed with the normal design with the bar at the bottom.

Hello.
Aaron Miller
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Posted: 7th Aug 2012 09:58
Windows 8 does not make sense as a business OS. I mean, is this something you see secretaries and receptionists using? Is this something you see journalists using? This isn't something I see myself programming on. I'd probably just network it with a more usable desktop then cross compile like it's a phone or console (though, I've never developed for a console officially before).

Cheers,
Aaron

Quik
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Posted: 7th Aug 2012 10:07
Quote: " is this something you see secretaries and receptionists using?"


If you buy them touch screens then heck yeah



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Dark Java Dude 64
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Posted: 7th Aug 2012 11:09
Good points... It does look like a webpage... That just takes away from all of the professionalism. You said it's formerly called Metro, what is it called now?
Aaron Miller
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Posted: 7th Aug 2012 11:43
No idea, yet.

Quote: "If you buy them touch screens then heck yeah"

Okay, well yeah... But do you see that many businesses actually buying it for them? xP

Cheers,
Aaron

bitJericho
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Posted: 7th Aug 2012 11:47
The windows 8 style UI

And actually it very much is like a webpage cuz that's how you program the interface! It's fairly similar.

Quik
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Posted: 7th Aug 2012 12:11
Quote: " But do you see that many businesses actually buying it for them? xP"


It would very much depend on the buisness itself, and how well it's doing..


To be fair - Win 8 doesnt look BAD. It looks like a good system - provided you have a touch screen, otherwise it seems to be windows 7 with a metro system added. How is that a BAD thing? just stick with 7 and be quiet..



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Aaron Miller
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Posted: 7th Aug 2012 13:18
Quote: "just stick with 7 and be quiet.."

The thing is, programmers are expected to migrate toward it because consumers are expected to migrate toward it. And it's not simply "Windows 7 with Metro on top," it's "im in ur win7 with my metro." (And by that, I mean Metro is invasive: it's thrust upon you everywhere you turn. e.g., start menu, title screen, app launching, etc.) For consumers it's probably a good thing. For businesses it doesn't make much sense.

Cheers,
Aaron

bitJericho
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Posted: 7th Aug 2012 13:58
I dunno. DirectAccess looks extremely useful for businesses, windows to go as well. Metro isn't invasive, it's just different. I find the start screen is much simpler to use than the windows 7 start menu. Who here actually uses all programs anymore? I mean really? The start screen on 8 is far quicker than trying to find something with the start menu. As for metro apps, yeah what business will need that? But that just means they don't use it, it's not like just the fact that there's apps available that run in the metro interface means it'll get in the way.

Aaron Miller
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Posted: 7th Aug 2012 14:39
Quote: "Metro isn't invasive, it's just different."

I don't mean Metro itself. By invasive, I'm referring to it replacing components, while Microsoft has removed features (possibly not purposely) that would allow you to bring it back if you wanted it. I also think there are a lot of ways Metro should be improved (only able to view two things at a time? wtf?) but hasn't been. Then there's the lack of support for OpenGL via metro. Microsoft is pushing for adoption of the interface (which makes sense for them to do, obviously), yet the interface isn't (IMO) ready for "prime time."

Quote: "Who here actually uses all programs anymore?"

I've used it a few times today. There are a few apps I use commonly, but outside of those I have lots of odd ball apps I use from time to time. (But that's just to answer your question; not to say that's a good way to do things.)

----------

I'm not against Windows 8. I just think it should be improved and features should be added before it's sold. (Of course, I wasn't able to get the consumer preview working outside of virtualization, so perhaps the situation is different than what I experienced.) Anyway, just my opinion.

Cheers,
Aaron

bitJericho
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Posted: 7th Aug 2012 14:47
Quote: "I've used it a few times today. There are a few apps I use commonly, but outside of those I have lots of odd ball apps I use from time to time. (But that's just to answer your question; not to say that's a good way to do things.)"


Do you use all programs or do you type what you're looking for? Guess it is down to personal preference.

Of course I'm a bit biased. I've been using it exclusively at home almost since the consumer preview came out, so I'm really used to it and comfortable with it. I'm just shocked at the uproar every new windows release has. It seems to me that each release gets better and better, and as computer guys, depending of course on your exact field, we should be the early adopters so we can give a good opinion to people who need info about a new OS.

TheComet
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Posted: 7th Aug 2012 15:07
I use a lot of programs on my computer. I'll use all of the programs on my taskbar at least once a week.

Quote: "I'm just shocked at the uproar every new windows release has. It seems to me that each release gets better and better, and as computer guys, depending of course on your exact field, we should be the early adopters so we can give a good opinion to people who need info about a new OS."


I'm not saying that Windows 8 is bad or anything, there are 2 reasons why I've moved to Linux now.

1) Windows 8 is a nightmare for developing games.
2) My hunch that Linux is going to receive a lot more attention now that a lot of people have started porting games to it, thus making it the ultimate game development environment.

TheComet

Your mod has been erased by a signature, please reduce him [overall] to no larger than 120 kg please.
Quik
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Posted: 7th Aug 2012 15:51
When i'm looking for a program I usually just go at the bottom bar thingy, where you can pin stuff... otherwise it's easiest to look at (windowsbutton) -> search



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Dar13
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Posted: 7th Aug 2012 16:14
Quote: "One other thing: there's no OpenGL support in (what is formerly known as) Metro. Check the APIs; there's no way to create a context. (If anyone finds a way to do so, lot me know.)"

Talk about anti-competitive behavior. Not even Apple restricts what rendering API(except for D3D which is windows-only of course) you can use on their platforms.

Jimpo
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Posted: 7th Aug 2012 18:01
Quote: " I do not know nearly as much as you about the DirectX vs OpenGL situation, but there is not doubt in my mind that if more people start using OpenGL, it will get better."


It wont be as good as DirectX, because OpenGL is managed by a committee with conflicting interests. OpenGL progress is slowed by bureaucracy, leaving it constantly behind DX. If nVidia adds a cool new feature to their hardware that doubles the performance in all games, then they can't add it to OpenGL since Intel will come along and say "hey, our graphic chips don't support that, and we have no plans of adding it, so you can't put that in OpenGL." Meanwhile, Microsoft can add DirectX support as soon as they want, yet it could be years before OpenGL has it.

Seppuku Arts
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Posted: 7th Aug 2012 18:17
I like the look of Windows 8, but I still think it could be improved, there's things they've done wrong in my eyes. It still has potential for the right improvements before release, hopefully MS will do them.

At the moment I am updating my version of Ubuntu to version 12, which seems to be reviewed up alongside Windows 8 on some sites.

I think Linux still has a way to go to start competing with the top 2 OS's, but I am actually feeling fairly confident in its future, even if it still remains in 3rd place in the OS wars. These days it's a lot more user friendly. It still satisfies only a small market, but 2 announcements this year that would make me consider developing for Linux (even as a hobbiest who has never completed a project) is the fact Unity3D 4.0 will allow you to build to Linux and Steam is going Linux. Torque Game Engine has supported Linux for years, I've still got a copy of that myself . Some popular indie games have made their way over onto Linux like Bastion, Super Meat Boy and World of Goo. Spotify and Skype also have Linux support. Also, from reading an interview, it sounds like more computers will be shipped off with Linux pre-installed instead of Windows.

I don't think MS will fall, nor would I want it too (love Windows 7, but not tried 8, so I can't judge it yet), but I'd certainly want to see them face stronger competition from Linux.

the_winch
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Posted: 7th Aug 2012 18:46
Quote: "Windows is dying a horrible death here. They've successful managed to segment up the platform, XP , Vista / Win7, (32bit / 64bit). Largely through failing to reinforce the real benefits to the great unwashed masses of the move up the tree."


I think that's their biggest mistake. The PC market is becoming increasingly fragmented. Microsoft's solution to this is to continue trying to stretch windows over the whole market.

See their recent decision to ditch their mobile OS and replace it with one that uses the same kernel as win8. A decision that appears to have been made due to internal Microsoft politics not a market need.

When you make decisions from a position that insulated from the actual market that is buying your produces you are bound to get in trouble eventually.

By way of demonstration, he emitted a batlike squeak that was indeed bothersome.
bitJericho
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Posted: 7th Aug 2012 19:01 Edited at: 7th Aug 2012 19:02
Quote: "I think that's their biggest mistake. The PC market is becoming increasingly fragmented. Microsoft's solution to this is to continue trying to stretch windows over the whole market."


The whole reason XP still gets patches is cuz of business. If XP didn't get patches anymore it would be effectively dead.

They can't do that though because businesses would freak. Business does not ever want to update until it affects their bottom line.

With MS having enterprise editions, they should just phase out all others in a more timely manner. 10+ years support for an OS is crazy if they also want to release 2-3 new ones in that time.

Last I checked steam, it was what, 20 percent of gamers on XP? Time to move along people.

Aaron Miller
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Posted: 7th Aug 2012 20:20 Edited at: 7th Aug 2012 20:21
Quote: "It wont be as good as DirectX, because OpenGL is managed by a committee with conflicting interests. OpenGL progress is slowed by bureaucracy, leaving it constantly behind DX. If nVidia adds a cool new feature to their hardware that doubles the performance in all games, then they can't add it to OpenGL since Intel will come along and say "hey, our graphic chips don't support that, and we have no plans of adding it, so you can't put that in OpenGL." Meanwhile, Microsoft can add DirectX support as soon as they want, yet it could be years before OpenGL has it."

lolwut.

The core OpenGL system goes slowly. When NVIDIA (or AMD or Intel...) add a feature they specify an extension to OpenGL immediately (which is evident if you've looked through the extension registry). Microsoft doesn't have an extension mechanism for D3D11. So, D3D11 doesn't get those changes where as OpenGL has them available and queryable. Again: GL_AMD_pinned_memory (no current D3D equivalent), GL_AMD_sparse_textures (no current D3D equivalent; granted the extension itself has not yet made it into the registry), GL_NV_uniform_buffer_object (no current D3D equivalent), GL_NV_bindless_texture (no current D3D equivalent), etc.

Cheers,
Aaron

Benjamin
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Posted: 7th Aug 2012 21:41
Quote: "The Microsoft era is coming to an end"


Unlikely. I think MS will just go through a rough patch, but I can't see Linux taking over any time soon.



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Indicium
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Joined: 26th May 2008
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Posted: 7th Aug 2012 21:58
I tried to use Ubuntu a couple of days ago and it was just a total pain, I'll be sticking with Windows.


They see me coding, they hating. http://indi-indicium.blogspot.co.uk/
NIlooc223
14
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Joined: 27th Aug 2010
Location: Heaven
Posted: 7th Aug 2012 22:04
I agree I tried ubuntu yesterday... I hated it...
Dar13
17
Years of Service
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Joined: 12th May 2008
Location: Microsoft VisualStudio 2010 Professional
Posted: 8th Aug 2012 03:15
Quote: "I agree I tried ubuntu yesterday... I hated it..."

Try Linux Mint. The new Ubuntu uses Unity which is absolutely horrible for usability. Linux Mint uses a more traditional desktop environment similar to Windows.

Aaron Miller
19
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Joined: 25th Feb 2006
Playing: osu!
Posted: 8th Aug 2012 03:17
I quite like Linux Mint. Don't recall why I stopped using it.

Cheers,
Aaron

Seppuku Arts
Moderator
20
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Joined: 18th Aug 2004
Location: Cambridgeshire, England
Posted: 8th Aug 2012 14:10 Edited at: 8th Aug 2012 15:41
I've not tried using Linux Mint, but I can understand that some people won't like Unity in Ubuntu. It's a fairly new addition, kinda like Metro. In version 11 there was an option to go to 'Ubuntu Classic', which meant you didn't have to use Unity. In version 12 classic is gone, however, unlike with the artist formerly known as 'Metro', you can still get rid of Unity.

So Unity-hating Ubuntu users, here is your solution:

http://www.ubuntugeek.com/how-to-install-classic-gnome-desktop-in-ubuntu-12-04-precise.html

Easy as pie, in fact easier because pie isn't that easy to make, not like toast. So the phrase should be, "easy as toast".

I personally love Ubuntu and I don't mind Unity.
Ubuntu 12.04 Unity + App Store
Ubuntu 12.04 running with Gnome Classic instead
Although I've not tried metro yet, but Unity seems to be more desktop friendly. Saying that, I might be tempted to switch back to classic because it's a lot more familiar.

Libervurto
18
Years of Service
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Joined: 30th Jun 2006
Location: On Toast
Posted: 8th Aug 2012 19:15
Microsoft are trying to copy Apple's iStore. They're trying to run everything through their own store and have imposed ridiculous restrictions like all apps must load in two seconds or less. Their greed has lead them to commit suicide.
Hooray for Linux! long live Linux!

Shh... you're pretty.
bitJericho
22
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Joined: 9th Oct 2002
Location: United States
Posted: 8th Aug 2012 19:32
Quote: "They're trying to run everything through their own store and have imposed ridiculous restrictions like all apps must load in two seconds or less."


If your app hangs there for more than 2 seconds you're doing something wrong...

Quik
16
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Joined: 3rd Jul 2008
Location: Equestria!
Posted: 8th Aug 2012 19:34
Quote: "If your app hangs there for more than 2 seconds you're doing something wrong..."


True true, still extremely uncomfortable



Whose eyes are those eyes?
bitJericho
22
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Joined: 9th Oct 2002
Location: United States
Posted: 8th Aug 2012 19:38
I think tight restrictions in the app store are great. However, I don't think it's ok to make it the only way to get apps. If third-party repos or downloads can also be done, I'm on board. I don't think that's the case though with the whole code signing requirement for apps

Quik
16
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Joined: 3rd Jul 2008
Location: Equestria!
Posted: 8th Aug 2012 19:42
Quote: "I think tight restrictions in the app store are great."


Could you elaborate that?



Whose eyes are those eyes?
Dar13
17
Years of Service
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Joined: 12th May 2008
Location: Microsoft VisualStudio 2010 Professional
Posted: 8th Aug 2012 19:43
Quote: "If your app hangs there for more than 2 seconds you're doing something wrong..."

Microsoft's Visual Studio takes 30+ seconds to load properly on my machine and it's no slouch(i3, 4GB RAM, SATA III HDD). Their own apps can't even satisfy that requirement.

bitJericho
22
Years of Service
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Joined: 9th Oct 2002
Location: United States
Posted: 8th Aug 2012 19:52
It means we get responsive and stable software.

Quote: "Microsoft's Visual Studio takes 30+ seconds to load properly on my machine and it's no slouch(i3, 4GB RAM, SATA III HDD). Their own apps can't even satisfy that requirement."


Are loading bars and status indicators not allowed in metro? I think they are. I assumed the restriction is just if the app takes more than 2 seconds to do *anything*. And actually it's 5 seconds for launching.

http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-US/library/windows/apps/hh694083

Dar13
17
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Joined: 12th May 2008
Location: Microsoft VisualStudio 2010 Professional
Posted: 8th Aug 2012 20:01
Quote: "Are loading bars and status indicators not allowed in metro? I think they are. I assumed the restriction is just if the app takes more than 2 seconds to do *anything*. And actually it's 5 seconds for launching."

That's more reasonable, but Visual Studio would still fail. The splash screen doesn't even pop up til ~15+ seconds if at all.

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