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AppGameKit Classic Chat / A simpler more automated platform conversion is needed!

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The Daddy
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Posted: 16th Aug 2012 19:44
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Hi All,

Just been thinking about the processes involved in writing a game and then publishing a game. As we all know actually writing a game (in any language) is a challenge...(yes we can all code but how many coders finish a fully functioning game). Once this often mammoth task is complete we are left with publishing.

I have not yet completed any publishing but it seems to me that this, based upon reading manuals and posts, seems to be a hit or miss situation. To make AppGameKit a market leader, this process needs to be a far more automated process.

I have looked at the competition from the jungle and the process seems a lot more straight forward and far shorter? This tells me that 'they' have managed to automate this process better than the team here. This of course is my own opinion! I think AppGameKit is powerful and will only improve but a large chuck of work should be done on this back room code, yes it is not adding 3d or object orientation, or other 'surface sexy' attractions but what a pain it is having all the visually sexy things and you then have to spend a...g....e....s.. Trying to port to your choosing platform....food for thought!

Constantly seeking!
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DVader
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Posted: 16th Aug 2012 20:03
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Well, I agree it would be way better to have a nice build button for this sort of thing, but I would say once setup, the actual porting is fairly quick. You will probably have to spend a few hours the first time (if all goes well), but after that it takes just a few minutes to do. Still it would be nice as I have not tried other platforms than android myself yet. I expect each one would probably take as much setting up as android, and the prospect doesn't appeal much

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Ancient Lady
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Posted: 16th Aug 2012 20:28
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Setting up for Tier 1 in Xcode on a Mac (which is required if you want to publish for Mac or iOS) is not too bad.

We'd all like a much more automatic approach. Some of the non-Windows platforms just cannot be built on the same machine as a Windows app. The Apple ones are a good example. Apple is quite proprietary about how things are done for their 'stuff'.

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Ancient Lady
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Digital Awakening
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Posted: 16th Aug 2012 22:44
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Stating that it takes ages to port is quite the exaggeration. With Exlipse set up, it takes me a minute to produce a new .apk file for Android.

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Paul Johnston
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Posted: 16th Aug 2012 23:03
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I've done some research into Android APK files and I'm fairly confident that we can build and sign one (ready for uploading to the store) from tier 1 code without eclipse or the Android SDK installed, but it's still early days.

iOS on the other hand I can't see a solution yet, if anyone knows how to sign an IPA file without a Mac please email me!
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Impetus73
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Posted: 16th Aug 2012 23:06
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Woho Paul! If this is true, AppGameKit just jumped 10 places up on the list of the best programming solutions in the world!

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The Daddy
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Posted: 16th Aug 2012 23:17
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As impetus states,

This type of ease of use will make AppGameKit rocket commercially. This does not mean I do not think it will do well commercially as is however, simplifying this process, will put AppGameKit at the top of the list in sales due to a easy portability.


Just thinking of all those newb's facing the task, they are learning a new language and new concepts to create an app only to find the learning curve to deploy it is a heavy one.

Constantly seeking!
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bjadams
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Posted: 16th Aug 2012 23:38
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Paul, Adobe did it with their Flash exporter in the "old days" when Flash was still alive and kicking!
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JimHawkins
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Posted: 16th Aug 2012 23:40
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I do think a lot can be more automated. Monkey doesn't need Eclipse, because it uses the ant tool to build the apk files. AppGameKit for Pascal doesn't need Cygwin because it can make a few folders without needing a Linux distro. Apk files are only zip files with a few required manifests in, so that's not hard!

I think the wording of the Apple stuff needs careful examination. Is it that you must build on a Mac, or that you must upload from a Mac? Think before you jump!

-- Jim DO IT FASTER, EASIER AND BETTER WITH AppGameKit FOR PASCAL
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bjadams
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Posted: 16th Aug 2012 23:40
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I have nothing to complain about the publishing process.

It's quite straight forward for ios, android and blackberry.

However I can understand that there are people who don't like to be in control of every byte and option, and would like 1 click publishing!
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Ancient Lady
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Posted: 17th Aug 2012 00:29
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Apple will not accept anything not built with Xcode on a Mac. It is explicit in the agreement you sign up for when you get a license with them for iOS or Mac development.

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Ancient Lady
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Paul Johnston
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Posted: 17th Aug 2012 00:59
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Since the AppGameKit player is just an interpreter it is already compiled and the same for every app, it just needs the bytecode and media files adding to it and signing, which makes the whole process more feasible.

With Apple the final upload is done through a Mac only upload program that restricts this part to Mac only. However if we can skip the XCode compile process and automate signing, producing a ready to upload IPA, then it becomes a lot easier for users.
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Ancient Lady
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Posted: 17th Aug 2012 01:23
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As long as the packaging gets done properly, I suppose Apple won't care as long as everything it sees in the upload is correct.

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Ancient Lady
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LeeBamber
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Posted: 17th Aug 2012 05:01
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I have been digging around the issue of producing IPA files from scratch, and the process (though shrouded with mystery) is pretty straight forward and is slightly more proprietary process as producing an APK (which as is suggested are simply glorified zip files). As Paul mentioned, if anyone wants to do some digging and post links here around routines, command line programs and procedures to building an IPA from the raw binary files, a valid certificate file and provisioning file we would be inclined to make this a priority.

I am in complete agreement that the process of easy app creation should not end with the finished app running, and should continue through the production of installers and submission to the various stores. We are working hard to make this a reality and I am confident we will have something up and running before we run out of 2012.

A question; what is the preference for Windows installers? Are yo happy with an MSI, or would you prefer a lightweight EXE, or perhaps an export of an NSIS project complete with files and set-up. The last solution allows you to tweak and customise the installer, or just click Compile in NSIS and you have your Windows installer ready to sell/distribute.

Lead Developer of Dark Basic Pro, FPS Creator and AppGameKit (App Game Kit)
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MrValentine
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Posted: 17th Aug 2012 11:07
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Regarding AppGameKit export to Android Play Store... Has anybody thought about Dans TGC YouTube page video¿

Also

I think an installer for windows that allows for branding and control over registry and desktop and start menu shortcuts is a good one... But I think installing into Prog Files is a nono as we would likely require a method to elevate the application to admin... But maybe more debate over this is needed...

I have yet to toy with an installer but I do love msi installers they just work everytime I use them... {for other apps}

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JimHawkins
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Posted: 17th Aug 2012 11:48
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Personally I prefer MSI. It means university or college IT staff can customise it for their systems. But, obviously, this is not the main AppGameKit target!

-- Jim DO IT FASTER, EASIER AND BETTER WITH AppGameKit FOR PASCAL
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Mobiius
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Posted: 17th Aug 2012 12:23
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I'm using a password protected self extracting RAR archive for my windows installs without any problems. Granted it's not a proper installer but it's good enough. (Even creates an uninstaller too I believe.)

I live for video games! (And beers, and football, and cars!)
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JimHawkins
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Posted: 17th Aug 2012 12:30
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Advanced Installer (which we use) has a free version. Excellent program.

-- Jim DO IT FASTER, EASIER AND BETTER WITH AppGameKit FOR PASCAL
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Impetus73
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Posted: 17th Aug 2012 13:33
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For the windows files, I would prefer one lightweight .exe with all media embedded, that runs in it's own "virtual machine" in memory, just like when you pack it with the smartpacker program.

When it comes to the ios, here is a tip:

To make a IPA the easy way...........

Step 1. download winrar or winzip and install it
Step 2. download any IPA
Step 3. right click on your IPA and select properties
Step 4. change the (open with program) to winrar-winzip click ok
Step 5. dbl click your IPA
Step 6. delete artwork and replace with yours
Step 7. delete folder payload and replace with yours
Step 8. close IPA and change the open with program back to itunes
Step 9. rename your IPA the title of the program your installing - done

Don't know about the certificates though...

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CodeGit
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Posted: 17th Aug 2012 15:09 Edited at: 17th Aug 2012 15:14
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The news from TGC that the publishing process will be automated, is awesome news. I have continued using Monkey, even though I own both Monkey and AppGameKit because it is simpler to publish to Android with Monkey. I feel that AppGameKit has a lot to offer and I would really like to use all its features,I just cannot take the chance that I finish a game and then I'm unable to publish correctly.

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Ancient Lady
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Posted: 17th Aug 2012 16:58
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Impetus73, you might end up with something that has the right stuff in it, but it could not be put back up in the App store.

Apple insists on very specific signing certificates, generated by them, for all apps. And the certificates are created for specific games by specific developers (with Apple iOS/Mac Developer Licences).

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Ancient Lady
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Digital Awakening
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Posted: 17th Aug 2012 17:05
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An easier way to compile to various platforms are good for AGK. Using Daniel's video tutorial anyone can have Android set up in like 2-3 hours and then it takes a minute to use. Combined with the player it's not bad at all. But it probably scares away new users. Not having to bother with external programs is also convenient.

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erebusman
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Posted: 17th Aug 2012 17:12
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Quote: "A question; what is the preference for Windows installers? Are yo happy with an MSI, or would you prefer a lightweight EXE, or perhaps an export of an NSIS project complete with files and set-up. The last solution allows you to tweak and customise the installer, or just click Compile in NSIS and you have your Windows installer ready to sell/distribute."


Well I see folks asking for different options on windows and I tend to agree -- I've shopped products to different gaming portals a bit and even they have different choices or preferences some times.

I think having 3 options on Windows would suit my needs:

1 - able to build my project with just the regular executable (no installer)

2 - able to build with a lightweight exe installer
3 - able to build with a msi


The reason #1 remains important is I can then take this and package it in different ways as needed by companies I work with if 2 & 3 don't suit.

Thanks!
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bitJericho
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Posted: 17th Aug 2012 17:41
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msi is really the only standard choice on windows. Choosing any proprietary or third party solution would just be silly. Of course still offering a standalone (no installer) exe would be good.

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Ancient Lady
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Posted: 17th Aug 2012 17:56
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I kinda like the installer used for AppGameKit v1076. Except it didn't ask for the full version code and you needed to edit a file to enter the value.

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Ancient Lady
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pprem
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Posted: 17th Aug 2012 18:33
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I think Apple and iOS are not the problem. We need a Mac to upload to Apple, we can learn the 5 minuts settings to compil in it.
(copying AppGameKit files, copying media files from the Windows folder to the

The problem is with Android, Meego, AppUp and others who need we install other programs (Cygwin, Eclipse, ...) and all SDK (testing programs on each platform need all simulator).

By the way, Visual Studio Express is only for test and education. Using it to compile a commercial program is not allowed in their license.

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Ancient Lady
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Posted: 17th Aug 2012 18:37
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Quote: "By the way, Visual Studio Express is only for test and education. Using it to compile a commercial program is not allowed in their license."


Crap! I forgot about that. Okay, so I don't publish in Windows until my game(s) make enough in the Apple and Android markets to afford the pro version.

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MrValentine
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Posted: 17th Aug 2012 18:39
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AL... Thanks for refreshing my memory on that key thing it totally confuzzled me.. So I always installed erm 1074? Legacy first then 1076... Still not sure anymore how to install AppGameKit anymore...

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Ancient Lady
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Posted: 17th Aug 2012 18:40
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Okay, if/when I get the pro version, does AppGameKit compile with VS 2012?

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JimHawkins
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Posted: 17th Aug 2012 20:04
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It would be a lot better if AppGameKit could use GNU C/C++ - then that entire problem goes away. In fact, Eclipse can use GNU C/C++, so that would mean just ONE IDE.

-- Jim DO IT FASTER, EASIER AND BETTER WITH AppGameKit FOR PASCAL
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Dar13
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Posted: 17th Aug 2012 20:09
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Quote: "In fact, Eclipse can use GNU C/C++, so that would mean just ONE IDE."

That would be great except that Eclipse takes longer to load than VS 2010 Premium on my machine and runs slower with less features.

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Ancient Lady
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Posted: 17th Aug 2012 20:15
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This might be a dumb question, but can you produce a Windows executable from Eclipse? I've never tried.

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Ancient Lady
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JimHawkins
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Posted: 17th Aug 2012 20:41
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Code::Blocks includes G++ - so yet more integration!

I don't think there's a very simple answer for Android. Windoze is easy!

-- Jim DO IT FASTER, EASIER AND BETTER WITH AppGameKit FOR PASCAL
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Hodgey
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Posted: 18th Aug 2012 03:56 Edited at: 18th Aug 2012 03:57
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Quote: "By the way, Visual Studio Express is only for test and education. Using it to compile a commercial program is not allowed in their license."

Could you show/quote that part of the licence? I've found a few links suggesting that you can use VS 2010 express for developing commercial software.

http://social.msdn.microsoft.com/Forums/en/Vsexpressvc/thread/3030a179-f7be-4f40-84ff-debd6d290b2c
http://social.msdn.microsoft.com/Forums/en-US/vcgeneral/thread/116d435f-a30c-44f4-9afb-506028d3c0e5
http://social.msdn.microsoft.com/Forums/en/Vsexpressinstall/thread/0782e1b0-db87-4de3-b79d-ba56a481e750 - scroll down a few posts to Adrian Collier's second post.

Quote: "Okay, if/when I get the pro version, does AppGameKit compile with VS 2012?"

AFAIK, VS2012 is locked to developing metro apps, at least the express version is. If you read Lee's blog, this gave him a bit of trouble. I hope they 'unlock' it soon.

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Dar13
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Posted: 18th Aug 2012 05:13
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Quote: "AFAIK, VS2012 is locked to developing metro apps, at least the express version is. If you read Lee's blog, this gave him a bit of trouble. I hope they 'unlock' it soon."

It's not locked. Not in the slightest. They would immediately lose all customers if they locked it to Win8 Metro. What was locked was that VS2012 applications wouldn't run on XP, which will be fixed in a service pack or hotfix.

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Rampage
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Posted: 18th Aug 2012 05:35
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Quote: "By the way, Visual Studio Express is only for test and education. Using it to compile a commercial program is not allowed in their license."

I have no idea why people here keep saying this.
You can use express versions of Visual Studio for commercial use.

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Hodgey
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Posted: 18th Aug 2012 05:37
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Quote: "It's not locked. Not in the slightest. "

Including the express versions?

I might be getting muddled up with this.

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MrValentine
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Posted: 18th Aug 2012 05:43
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I think the confusion was over DGK in another thread recently which discovered that DGS did not carry a licence for it and VS got mixed up in that debate...

Either way I think it was resolved that it was commercial allowing... VS that is...

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Dar13
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Posted: 18th Aug 2012 05:58
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Quote: "Including the express versions?"

According to the VS2012 product page, Express is restricted to Win8 indeed. I won't be upgrading for a while I think. Not until I can get it through my school anyways.

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Rampage
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Posted: 18th Aug 2012 10:55
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Quote: "I might be getting muddled up with this"

You did read that thread right?
Somewhere in there is a link to a Microsoft announcement saying that they have unlocked restrictions for express users.
Quote: "According to the VS2012 product page, Express is restricted to Win8 indeed. I won't be upgrading for a while I think. Not until I can get it through my school anyways."

At release, when they unlock desktop development, Windows 7 will not be restricted.

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Hodgey
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Posted: 18th Aug 2012 12:46
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Quote: "You did read that thread right? "

Not all of it, only the first bit but after you pointed that out I looked through the rest of it and it's good to hear that they'll be adding desktop support to VS 2012 express.

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kamac
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Posted: 18th Aug 2012 21:41
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Quote: "iOS on the other hand I can't see a solution yet, if anyone knows how to sign an IPA file without a Mac please email me!"


Adobe AIR somehow does that. I've been able to package my ActionScript 3 things into IPA from Windows with few clicks. Not sure how did they accomplish that.

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