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Geek Culture / On Ultraviolence in Games, and the Lessons of Porn

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Aaron Miller
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Posted: 20th Aug 2012 02:43
http://www.whatgamesare.com/2012/08/on-ultraviolence-in-games-and-learning-the-lessons-of-porn.html
Quote: "In the Kano model of customer satisfaction there are three kinds of attributes: threshold (stuff that users expect to be there), linear (stuff that users consider useful, if predictable, improvements) and delights (stuff that users didn't expect).

Another way to think of linear attributes is the urge to be bigger, better, faster or harder. It's things like the the razorblade industry's push to have 3, then 4, then 5, then a strip, then 2 strips and so on on their blades. Bigger/better/faster/harder also represents the overwhelming tone of marketing in the PC industry, with numbers like processor speed and RAM and graphics chips and so on all buzzing about the vast majority of products. It's always about who has the biggest number.

The problems with linear attributes, however, are twofold. First: they often become threshold attributes. PC customers now expect a lot of functionality in baseline machines, which means that a manufacturer has a lot of bases to cover. Second: the numbers eventually become meaningless when the user cannot tell the difference. 6 razor blades and 3 strips is beyond the point of nonsensical, for example. And PC sales have stalled as users no longer really feel the difference between cheap and expensive products. When that happens, prices drop."


Personally I can't see Ouya as the future of consoles (as is suggested in the article), but there's always that possibility.

All of this applies to a lot of different industries, though the focus is on games.

Pincho Paxton
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Posted: 20th Aug 2012 11:54 Edited at: 20th Aug 2012 11:57
I don't know who wrote all that, but it is all badly written, I can't read it. Just this first line....

Quote: "In the Kano model of customer satisfaction"


... I mean I can't even read that! What's a Kano?

The first line in the link...
Quote: "Clockwork

The gaming sphere (myself included) debated about whether E3 had gone too far and had the ultraviolent kinds of game on show were representative of games any more. "


I can't read that either.

Aaron Miller
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Posted: 20th Aug 2012 12:03
I found it easy to read. Check out the link I gave, the article has its own set of links to the odd-ball stuff. For example, the "Kano model" is itself a link within the article. My quotation was only a snippet of the article to give an idea of what might be covered.

Pincho Paxton
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Posted: 20th Aug 2012 12:10 Edited at: 20th Aug 2012 12:13
Quote: "I found it easy to read. "


This...

Quote: "The gaming sphere (myself included) debated about whether E3 had gone too far and had the ultraviolent kinds of game on show were representative of games any more. ""


Should be...

Quote: "The gaming sphere (myself included) debated about whether E3 had gone too far, and were the ultra-violent games on show representative of games any more. ""


So how you find it easy to read, I don't know. And even correctly formatted, the question reads.. "Is an Ultra-Violent game, a game?" Which still doesn't make sense.

Aaron Miller
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Posted: 20th Aug 2012 12:28
The topic reads "On Ultraviolence in Games, and the Lessons of Porn." It's easy to see "ultra" and "violence" are two words, despite not being separated by a hyphen. Your "correctly formatted" version is just as "hard" to read to me as his version. Likewise, you gave one specific example but did not make claim that other such occurrences exist throughout his text. Even if they do, it's nothing to nit-pick about.

The article raises some interesting (albeit common sense) points. Do you agree or disagree with any of the points the article has made?

Pincho Paxton
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Posted: 20th Aug 2012 12:31 Edited at: 20th Aug 2012 12:36
Quote: "Even if they do, it's nothing to nit-pick about."


It's not nit picking, I actually can't read it. I didn't just change Ultra Violent, I changed many things in the one sentence.

Here's the second sentence...
Quote: "Many a journalist reflected on their personal feelings of depression in the wake of the show, thinking that for all the high talk games had not really moved on."


That also has many mistakes in it.

Then this...

Quote: "All fair points, but studios go to the extreme like that for a reason.

They need the coverage, even if bad, because obscurity is the enemy of all creative endeavour."


..maybe it's arty, but I can't read it.

Aaron Miller
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Posted: 20th Aug 2012 12:34
Huh. Well, I sincerely don't know how to help you there. I honestly thought you were just nit-picking, though I suppose not.

Anyone else have any opinion on the article?

TheComet
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Posted: 20th Aug 2012 15:17 Edited at: 20th Aug 2012 15:17
This thread isn't about being a grammar nazi, it's about the content of that article. That said, I was able to read it without a problem so I have no idea what's going on in your head, Pincho

The big problem of a "mega game company" is it lacks all innovation. They will stick to a formula that works for them and keep producing the same crap over and over again, squeezing a genre until it's just a drained pile of game creation citrus (if that makes any sense). As soon as their sales start dropping, they'll not know what else to do other than crank up what they've been doing all along. There's no way they will give something new a shot, no, they will desperately try to super-size their formula. This behaviour can only lead to failure in my opinion.

This quote struck me the most:

Quote: "To be at the front of the wave is to be risky, experimental, small and scrappy. The explorer game maker often does not have a big budget, and even if he did would not really know what to do with it. What he needs is room to feel his way into an idea, to be left alone to see where it takes him. He will often fail, but every once in a while (largely dependent on talent), he'll stumble into something amazing."


Most of the amazing games we see today come from this. If a mega company starts failing, this is what it should be doing, not produce more FPS games... Who here is sick of that genre btw?

TheComet

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Libervurto
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Posted: 20th Aug 2012 16:47 Edited at: 20th Aug 2012 16:50
I agree with Pincho, that article looks like it was written by a twelve-year-old. It's not just about punctuation: words are used out of context, stock phrases (that are intended to appear intellectual) do nothing but convolute an already messy article. The overall grammar and structure of writing makes it a chore to read, and I gave up half-way through the second section. However Pincho, Kano is obviously the name of the person who proposed the "Kano model", I don't know why you brought that up unless it was a joke.

Let's look at that first sentence again...
Quote: "The gaming sphere (myself included) debated about whether E3 had gone too far and had the ultraviolent kinds of game on show were representative of games any more."

I'm amazed that this has to be flagged up as poor writing but here goes.

First let's tackle the confusing terms.
What is "the gaming sphere"? Is he talking about gamers, game developers, game journalists, or the entire group? And why do we need "(myself included)"? It's obvious you are part of the debate because you're taking part by writing this damn article! Since this is talking about E3 I will replace the term with "Many attendees" as we can assume these are the specific people who have a valid opinion on E3 rather than the vague "gaming sphere". (Maybe the author didn't attend E3 and that's why he uses such a vague term. In which case why is he writing about something he has no personal experience of?)

Quote: "...debated about whether E3 had gone too far..."

Incorrect grammar again. You "debate about" a subject, but you "debate" an argument. "Whether E3 had gone too far" is an argument, not a subject. What does he mean by "gone too far"? What is he talking about? We later read he is talking about violence in games, but in what way is that related to E3? Are E3 misrepresenting games by promoting a disproportionate number of violent games? Are they encouraging the manufacture of violent games? Are they displaying violent material at their conferences? Are they punching people in the face? This statement has no meaning! We'll address that later when we have something resembling a sentence. I will add in "this year" as E3 is a yearly event and I assume this is the year they "went too far", whatever that means.

Quote: "... kinds of game..."

Pheasant? Rabbit? Deer? These are kinds of game, but we are talking about games, and we are not talking about different kinds of games, just the ultra-violent ones; so this pluralisation is completely the wrong way around: it should be "kind of games". And yes "ultra-violent" does require a hyphen, it's not a big deal to leave it out but it is incorrect.

The next error throws you off the rails when reading, but it might be hard to see where the problem is, so I'll remove the unconnected words.
Quote: "had the ultra-violent kind of games on show were representative of games any more."

Simplified:
Quote: "had x were x"

"Had" and "were" don't go together. Either change "had" to "if":
"if x were x", or change "were" to been: "had x been x". I don't know the terminology to explain why this is so, but I think you'll agree it is.
Since we've already used "had" in the same sentence before, I will change the second "had" to "if".

Now let's reconstruct the sentence and see what we have.
Quote: "Many attendees debated whether E3 had gone too far this year and if the ultra-violent kind of games on show were representative of games any more."

It still doesn't make any damn sense! Let's work on it a bit more.

Quote: "...E3 had gone too far this year and if the ultra-violent kind of games on show"

It's now clearer that these two points are actually the same point and shouldn't be separated by "and", the "and" should come after this section.
Now we can see that it's E3's focus on violent games that is related to "gone too far", not the type of games.

Quote: "Many attendees debated whether E3 had gone too far this year with their focus on ultra-violent games, and if the conference was an accurate representation of the games industry today."

I hardly need the quote tags any more, the only remaining text is that awful "gone too far" and I can't get rid of it because it doesn't mean anything. The entire sentence has changed so dramatically that I can't be sure whether I have the intended meaning or not, and that's the fault of the writer, and remember this is only the first sentence.

Let's have one last look at the original to compare.
Quote: "The gaming sphere (myself included) debated about whether E3 had gone too far and had the ultraviolent kinds of game on show were representative of games any more."


Shh... you're pretty.
Pincho Paxton
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Posted: 20th Aug 2012 16:49
Quote: "That said, I was able to read it without a problem so I have no idea what's going on in your head, Pincho "


Ok this is the third insult from you in a week now. It's getting annoying. You cannot write like this...

Quote: " "The gaming sphere (myself included) debated about whether E3 had gone too far and had the ultraviolent kinds of game on show were representative of games any more. """


whether, had, and were. Let me shorten it for you...

I wondered whether he had gone too far and had the game on show were games any more.

If that isn't strange to you, then it's not my head that needs fixing.

CoffeeGrunt
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Posted: 20th Aug 2012 17:18
To be fair, I agree with Pincho. It's hard to take the opinion seriously, because the sentence has no coherency. :/
Seppuku Arts
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Posted: 20th Aug 2012 17:47
Quote: "
The big problem of a "mega game company" is it lacks all innovation. They will stick to a formula that works for them and keep producing the same crap over and over again, squeezing a genre until it's just a drained pile of game creation citrus (if that makes any sense). As soon as their sales start dropping, they'll not know what else to do other than crank up what they've been doing all along. There's no way they will give something new a shot, no, they will desperately try to super-size their formula. This behaviour can only lead to failure in my opinion."


Totally agree. I recently read an article about the decline in interest of the MMO genre after seeing some of the decline with SW:TOR and as an MMO gamer and somebody who plays SW:TOR I felt the reason why SW:TOR wasn't as great as it could have been because it took an idea that would have worked well as an MMO (KOTOR) but instead of doing something different from the genre and making it a bit more unique, it took what I call the 'World of Warcraft model' (though probably doesn't originate from WoW) and tried improving it and admittedly, levelling up was a lot more interesting and the game involved you much more with the plot and characters, but in the end, you're basically playing the same game. It was successful for WoW and successful for other MMOs, but it seems some fail to realise that gamers don't always want to play the same game over and over.

Except maybe when it comes to a specific series, you expect Mario to be Mario, Zelda to be Zelda, Call of Duty to be Call of Duty, Battlefield to be Battlefield, Final Fantasy...well, that applied all the way up to Final Fantasy X, XI to a degree. I'd say, generally fans play a series because they enjoy that game and style of game play so much, they don't want to play it once, they want to play it several times over. And actually, if a Final Fantasy fan wanted to play a current gen Final Fantasy, they'd have to buy Lost Odyssey, because it was created by some of the original creators and remains more true to the series than where the series currently stands. To my mind, this is where repetition is best placed. New games I think should be new experience, even if you expect the odd clone here and there.

Heck (back to SW:TOR), I expected SW:TOR to be the MMORPGification* of KOTOR, which for an MMO, would have been different, but it was the KOTORification* of WoW. Unfortunately, people aren't willing to take a risk, they'd rather go with what they know works and makes money. Whilst it may work for certain gamers out there, but it will cause sales to dip. People like to try new things. But when you look at commercial markets in general, often or not people play it safe. I think to a degree that's understandable, because you've got a lot of money invested and an employee base to pay and lots of expenses to cover. But then, without innovation, there's the potential for it to fall. Not everybody's going to make an immortalised game series where you can use the same model over and over (lik Mario & Zelda) and still get a player base worth the investment.

But in all honesty, it is rare for me to get excited by a new game. Though, PSO2 is looking like it might be promising as an MMO, for one reason, it's not a WoW clone.


*Sorry for butchering the English language.

Quik
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Posted: 20th Aug 2012 18:54
Quote: "But in all honesty, it is rare for me to get excited by a new game."


I was REALLY excited for Darksiders 2 :3 and am REALLY excited about GW2... other than that, nooot so much...



Whose eyes are those eyes?
Seppuku Arts
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Posted: 20th Aug 2012 19:11
Two games that don't excite me. At the moment, I am looking for to PSO2, I know my friend will bug me to play it with him, but it's going to be F2P, which will be handy as far as my wallet is concerned.

And maybe the new FFXI Expansion (Seekers of Adoulin), if you were to count expansion packs.

Nothing non-MMO related. Perhaps Borderlands 2 because I enjoyed the first one. Most FPS games now seem to be a repeat of each other, Borderlands was a wee bit refreshing and I played it to death, so I might get the second.

TheComet
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Posted: 20th Aug 2012 19:34
Quote: "Ok this is the third insult from you in a week now. It's getting annoying. You cannot write like this..."


It wasn't meant to be an insult, I just wanted to say that I had no problem reading it and the fact that you're extensively complaining you can't read it because of the grammar is a bit silly. It's the content we should be discussing.

TheComet

"if you don't understand recursion than you probably don't understand recursion." ~Jerico2day
Pincho Paxton
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Posted: 20th Aug 2012 20:20 Edited at: 20th Aug 2012 20:25
Quote: "It wasn't meant to be an insult, I just wanted to say that I had no problem reading it and the fact that you're extensively complaining you can't read it because of the grammar is a bit silly. It's the content we should be discussing."


The content was unreadable, the words were wrong. I can understand babelfish better than that link. I said that I couldn't understand it, so how do I discuss the content? I can guess what he meant, but guessing is hardly going with the content. I went over the first three sentences 50 times, and had no clue what they meant. It would probably take me 4 hours to get to the end.

Aaron Miller
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Posted: 20th Aug 2012 21:24



Seriously, it's not hard to read. As humans we're supposed to be able to handle a margin of error. That post is within my acceptable threshold (as well as TheComet's). Look for the meaning, don't analyze the individual words.

Quote: "The big problem of a "mega game company" is it lacks all innovation. They will stick to a formula that works for them and keep producing the same crap over and over again, squeezing a genre until it's just a drained pile of game creation citrus (if that makes any sense). As soon as their sales start dropping, they'll not know what else to do other than crank up what they've been doing all along. There's no way they will give something new a shot, no, they will desperately try to super-size their formula. This behaviour can only lead to failure in my opinion."

I agree to an extent. The AAA developers do innovate in terms of technology, but not in game play. I loathe that most indie developers do little to innovate or push technology ahead. It's ironic that AAA developers push technology, but not game play, and that indie developers push game play, but not technology. That is, indie developers stick to what works too, just in a different way than how AAA developers do.

Indie developers will argue it's not necessary. Those who make that argument likely can't (either by lack of capability, or lack of care) innovate technology. (And that's painfully obvious in some cases.) Also, the counterargument can be made that innovating the story isn't necessary either. How many people actually care about innovating stories? A lot of people don't care about technology being innovated, but they'll buy a game if it looks fun. Part of what they expect from fun games is better graphics. I've seen die-hard Nintendo 64 fans say "I can't play this console (N64) anymore because the graphics look too bad." Likewise, a few of them say the same about the PS2 and Xbox. What I don't hear them complaining about is "I've seen this story too many times before, I can't play this game." Granted, I clearly haven't seen what is the whole representation of the market. (And to be fair, I tend to prefer playing original NES games over newer AAA games.)

In preparation for the inevitable "but Minecraft made it and it doesn't have fancy graphics or a major publisher" argument, there are always exceptions. There aren't many though. There are far more AAA games that have made it than there are indie games that have made it. Likewise, I honestly don't know of any indie game that has pushed gaming at all, except for perhaps the original Wolfenstein/DOOM. But even then, some might not consider that indie either. (Note also, that I'm not arguing that "fancy graphics" is all there is to AAA games, but it's a good assumption that's one of the reasons they do so well.)

Please excuse my incoherent rambling.

Quote: "I'd say, generally fans play a series because they enjoy that game and style of game play so much, they don't want to play it once, they want to play it several times over."

Yes, but why does that style of game play have to be limited to just that series? I personally enjoy to see similar game play to the other games. (Hey, I even enjoy blatant rip-offs if it means I basically get to play more levels.)

----

Anyway, that's all just my opinion.

TheComet
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Posted: 20th Aug 2012 21:45
Well put.

The only people I know that judge games solely based on graphics are 12 year olds. Of course cool graphics are great to have in a game, but in my opinion the most important thing is gameplay. You can have a game with good gameplay and horrible graphics, but you can't have a game with horrible gameplay and great graphics.

Story is of course also important, but again, you can have a great game with horrible story telling, horrible graphics, and fun gameplay. For example, the Mario games suck with story telling.

TheComet

"if you don't understand recursion than you probably don't understand recursion." ~Jerico2day
Pincho Paxton
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Posted: 20th Aug 2012 22:29 Edited at: 20th Aug 2012 23:06
Quote: "
Seriously, it's not hard to read. As humans we're supposed to be able to handle a margin of error. That post is within my acceptable threshold (as well as TheComet's). Look for the meaning, don't analyze the individual words."


Well, OK, so a game is it a game.. yes! The journalists who are depressed should try prozac, or something. The obscurity, of whatever sounds like a good thing. I like obscure games. If you're not remarkable then try to improve your talents.

Quote: " Ideally game makers would all love to be talked about for their design, technology or aesthetics, but those attributes are often unreliable. A splashy, gory, over-the-top video though? Money in the bank, or so they think."


I think that it means gore is money in the bank. Well lot's of games have individual attributes that make them popular, so I disagree with that.

Quote: "The problem is that that kind of extremity eventually gives way to apathy, and from there it's a short hop to commoditisation. The approach of being bigger/better/faster/harder than the other guy ultimately results in a bland white noise where even the most shocking act is no longer really that shocking. In this, the E3 games industry may find itself traveling down the same sorry path as the adult entertainment industry. "


No idea what that is about. Erm, I doubt I could even guess. Something to do with better faster, harder, and porn I think.

Quote: "Ethical debates about adult entertainment aside, one of the most interesting things about it as an industry is how often it has been at the forefront of trends that affect all other digital media. Its producers were among the first to figure out how to deliver video content online, how to monetise content, outsource and market it. The industry has proved endlessly inventive in how, where and by what means its content is delivered, and it tends to have a very bottom-line approach. In adult film it's all about user acquisition, retention and conversion to customers at every opportunity. "


Porn was the first to deliver video online? So what's that got to do with games?

Quote: "So in these times of analytics and measurement you would think that it's boom times. Not so. According to Louis Theroux, the adult industry is in dire straits, with many performers unable to find work and sales in many genres having collapsed. The problems seem to stem from three main areas: Over-supply (it doesn't cost much to produce a film), a lack of sociality (not many people really want to share their proclivities with their Facebook friends), and the proliferation of free sites."


Porn stars can't find work? Is it over-supply? Games are far more individual than porn films. Each film is almost identical to the last. These are not very intelligent people working on the films, they have no creativity.


Quote: "This last in particular is often blamed because it commoditised the product into a free video, which - when combined with oversupply - means that there is so much product available that nobody ever needs to pay. And they have no reasons to share. (This is also why many musicians are terrified of Spotify)."


Seems like 3 references to the same thing. Free leads to free, leads to free? OK?

Quote: "What always happens in any market where there is a glut of over-supplied average content is that some producers decide to try and differentiate. They look for an angle that will get them talked about, regardless of the tone of that coverage, so that they won't be invisible. That can take many forms, from the slow building of a tribe and a marketing story to the over-the-top push to extremity to try and create shock and awe. And this is largely where porn went."


Almost makes sense. Free leads to shock angle to make money. OK so that is true at last.

Quote: "Adult content today is much harder than it used to be, according to many former performers. It's meaner, more violent and brutal. It's also much more functional, with many of the pretenses of story (such as in the Boogie Nights era) washed away in favour of identifying the product by genre, act, performer and so on. The various genres have diversified and diversified some more, to the point that the product is thoroughly atomised. "


He took the red pill again. No idea. Functional, pretences.. err.. no I can't get the gist of that at all.

Quote: "And yet even despite all of that pushing to the edges and forking of content into sub-divisions, the industry continued to hollow out from within. In the end of the day even the most extreme content became freely available (legitimately and illegitimately) and the places where extremity could go ran out. And so the industry as a whole shrank. Porn (like games, music, books, movies etc) has never been more widely available, and yet has never been less valuable."


Makes sense, extreme porn became free too. Yeah, I thought that was Free, Free, Free in the first place.

Like I said, this will take ages. I give up with the rest.

Aaron Miller
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Posted: 20th Aug 2012 23:25 Edited at: 20th Aug 2012 23:25
Pincho, you've misunderstood the article. It looks like you're either missing details, or that English isn't your first language. Try again, you'll eventually get what the article means.

Quote: "Ideally game makers would all love to be talked about for their design, technology or aesthetics, but those attributes are often unreliable. A splashy, gory, over-the-top video though? Money in the bank, or so they think."

The author is referring to the fact that game makers like doing the research parts and the parts of making games they enjoy. For example, John Carmack enjoys programming graphics, networking, and taking on all sorts of technical challenges. The average gamer doesn't care about any of that though. Instead, the average gamer cares about having fun. Having fun tends to involve some form of extremity these days. For example, initially games didn't really have any blood splatter or gore. They were all (more or less) happy-go-lucky save-the-princess type games. As time went on, games that existed solely for the purpose of being violent and bloody expanded. Many of these games were purchased solely for that purpose. But then the market becomes saturated with games that are "ultra-violent." (The author defines ultra-violence as non-essential violence. e.g., like GTA. You can go around killing people in that game just because you want to.) Specifically, the quote mentions a video. He's referring to certain types of porn which are rather extreme.

Quote: "The problem is that that kind of extremity eventually gives way to apathy, and from there it's a short hop to commoditisation. The approach of being bigger/better/faster/harder than the other guy ultimately results in a bland white noise where even the most shocking act is no longer really that shocking. In this, the E3 games industry may find itself traveling down the same sorry path as the adult entertainment industry."

He's talking about market saturation. For example, imagine a world where pizza never existed. Now, lets say one guy comes along and makes and sells pizza. The world loves his pizza! Some guy now copies him and starts making pizza too. Let's say they're both making pepperoni pizza specifically. Now some other guy comes along and starts making pepperoni pizza too. And another guy... and another guy... etc. Now there are twenty people all making pepperoni pizza. The original guy no longer gets as many customers as he used to. Pepperoni pizza is now available everywhere. Who cares anymore? So, that guy decides "Hey! I'll put vegetables on the pizza!" And thus, now there's "supreme pizza." He now has something new and gets more customers. Then the other guys start copying him as well. The market is now saturated again with the same thing. Maybe his next idea is to add anchovies or some other topping on the pizza, or perhaps hamburger meat, or some other thing. Continuing along the pattern, eventually the guy makes cheese stuffed crusts and other features. The market is now no longer saturated. But, the other guys will just catch up soon, so what should he do? He should figure out something that would be difficult for the other guys to catch up to. That way people can be excited about pizza again!

Quote: "Porn was the first to deliver video online? So what's that got to do with games?"

He's suggesting that games should try to deliver themselves in more innovative ways. (He mentions Ouya in the article.)

Quote: "Porn stars can't find work? Is it over-supply? Games are far more individual than porn films. Each film is almost identical to the last. These are not very intelligent people working on the films, they have no creativity."

Okay, this is difficult to talk about and discuss without getting newbie-slapped. I think it's fair to simply state that there's over-supply (saturation as I'm calling it) in the game market as well. Porn was first to reach that saturation. Gaming isn't too far behind, because we can already see a lot of similarities between games now.

Quote: "Seems like 3 references to the same thing. Free leads to free, leads to free? OK?"

When things are free, it becomes a bit more difficult to make money. e.g., if there were a product just like Dark Basic available, was well documented, had Direct3D 9/10/11 or OpenGL (or whatever you desire) support, and had its own community too... wouldn't you have gone with them instead of paying? Many people would answer yes, I imagine. If not to that specifically, then to many other things. Essentially, a lot of people are quite cheap.

Quote: "He took the red pill again. No idea. Functional, pretences.. err.. no I can't get the gist of that at all."

Just read the last sentence in the quote: "The various genres have diversified and diversified some more, to the point that the product is thoroughly atomised." A synonym of "atomised" is "reduced." In the context, he's saying that the "product" has become split into many different parts.

Pincho Paxton
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Posted: 20th Aug 2012 23:48 Edited at: 21st Aug 2012 00:18
You are making up what he is talking about, that's why you think you understand it. None of your answers fit what the words say. Like this...

Quote: "Quote: "Ideally game makers would all love to be talked about for their design, technology or aesthetics, but those attributes are often unreliable. A splashy, gory, over-the-top video though? Money in the bank, or so they think.""


Doesn't match this...
Quote: "
The author is referring to the fact that game makers like doing the research parts and the parts of making games they enjoy. For example, John Carmack enjoys programming graphics, networking, and taking on all sorts of technical challenges. The average gamer doesn't care about any of that though. Instead, the average gamer cares about having fun. Having fun tends to involve some form of extremity these days."


You don't mention a video, you add John Carmack, and technical challenges. Nothing in the first part is in your second part, apart from at the end gore. Which I covered myself.

Oh, by video he means a game trailer? Because he is talking about porn, I related Video to an actual video.

Let's break this down...
Quote: "Quote: "Ideally game makers would all love to be talked about for their design, technology or aesthetics, but those attributes are often unreliable. A splashy, gory, over-the-top video though? Money in the bank, or so they think.""


Ideally game makers would all love to be talked about for their design, technology or aesthetics.


OK, well they are.

...but those attributes are often unreliable.

Well that could mean that they break, but most likely means unreliable for making money. Well those things do make money so it's wrong.

A splashy, gory, over-the-top video though? Money in the bank, or so they think.

Well, I thought the gist was to make money, but this seems to contradict that view, because it ends with a doubt. So the writer doubts that gore makes money, yet wrote a whole page about it making money?

RedneckRambo
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Posted: 21st Aug 2012 00:17 Edited at: 21st Aug 2012 00:19
Pincho go away. Stop saying you can't read it because if you can correct it than you can obviously read it.

Stop being a grammar nazi and leave the thread to its purpose. You are being annoying and of no help whatsoever. Congratulations, you found an article on the internet that is written poorly. I bet you are the first person to ever find something written poorly online! Now knock it off.

Words cannot describe my Greatness... But I'll give it a shot.

I am awesome....... Yeah, that works.
Pincho Paxton
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Posted: 21st Aug 2012 00:19 Edited at: 21st Aug 2012 00:19
Quote: "Pincho go away. Stop saying you can't read it because if you can correct it than you can obviously read it."


If I have to correct it, means that I have to guess what the writer is talking about. If we all guess, and get a different answer, then the page doesn't work.

Aaron Miller
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Posted: 21st Aug 2012 00:21
Quote: "that's why you think you understand it."

Every time you (I'm not referring to you specifically here, but just in general) read anything, you think you understand things. In reality, you are just interpreting something so that it fits in your own mental model. It's easy to misinterpret things. However, my statement is not meant to be used as a direct translation, but as an explanation (complete with an example; i.e., John Carmack). I believe you have misinterpreted what I have written, however. As such, I could've found a better way to write it. I'm sorry there's a communication breakdown between us. I have no idea how I would go about fixing it without wasting a bunch of time and bringing down the whole purpose of the thread, which is the idea behind the article.

I will attempt to correlate the quoted portions of my response though.

Quote: "game makers would all love to be talked about for their design, technology or aesthetics"

Which I matched with:
Quote: "game makers like doing the research parts and the parts of making games they enjoy"

Followed with the John Carmack example to illustrate my point in case it wasn't clear.

Quote: "A splashy, gory, over-the-top video though?"

Which I attempted to explain with:
Quote: "the average gamer cares about having fun. Having fun tends to involve some form of extremity these days."


Quote: "Money in the bank, or so they think."

I did not directly respond to that part of the quotation because it was leading up to something else. I explained that elsewhere.

Quote: "Oh, by video he means a game trailer?"

That depends on the context. He's probably referring to a game trailer though.

Quote: "I related Video[sic] to an actual video."

Quote: "vid·e·o/ˈvidēˌō/
Noun:
1. The system of recording, reproducing, or broadcasting moving visual images on or from videotape.
2. A movie or other piece of material recorded on videotape."
Game trailers and porn are both "actual videos." I'm not sure what you meant by that.

Pincho, perhaps you could simply provide your thoughts on whether large game companies are destroying or helping the indie market. It's not 100% on-topic, but it's close enough and somewhat related to the overall intention of this thread.

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Posted: 21st Aug 2012 00:35 Edited at: 21st Aug 2012 00:42
Quote: "Quote: "game makers would all love to be talked about for their design, technology or aesthetics"

Which I matched with:

Quote: "game makers like doing the research parts and the parts of making games they enjoy""



Which is a total guess. There is no mention of researching parts of the game which they enjoy making.

That's what I mean. We can all guess something different. But your guess has nothing to do with the words in the page. If I were to guess I would say that it is about money, not enjoyment. They would love to make money from the aesthetics, design, and technology... I think. That's why it leads to gore making money.

Pincho Paxton
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Posted: 21st Aug 2012 00:47 Edited at: 21st Aug 2012 00:55
Quote: "Pincho, perhaps you could simply provide your thoughts on whether large game companies are destroying or helping the indie market. It's not 100% on-topic, but it's close enough and somewhat related to the overall intention of this thread."


I like games that are aesthetic, well designed, with new ideas. I don't like games with gore, just to satisfy a blood lust. If games have to have more gore each time, and leads to a game like Saw, or Hostel, then the game still has to be fun. Kids will get fed up of gore games, and eventually enjoy the new games ideas that come out. The future of games is in Neural Networks. Games that are self intelligent, and able to be trained by the players. Imagine robots fighting on the internet that have been trained by the players, rather than controlled by the players. You then have live fights, and a leader-board, and an actual contest that is played as a new sport. You also have robot parts for sale as replaceable limbs. That is the future.

By the way, I don't mean actual robots, I mean 3D model Neural Networks.

Aaron Miller
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Posted: 21st Aug 2012 00:55
Quote: "Which is a total guess. There is no mention of researching parts of the game which they enjoy making."

Not true.
Quote: "game makers would all love to be talked about for their design, technology or aesthetics"

Where "technology" matches the technology of games.
Quote: "game makers like doing the research parts"

Technology is research. You don't advance technology unless you do research. Likewise, technology is built upon prior research as well. Hence my example with John Carmack.

Quote: "and the parts of making games they enjoy"

Given said example (the one of John Carmack), it's easy to see he (John Carmack) enjoys what he does. Read interviews or listen to his talks. You'll see that's true.

----

Quote: "Kids will get fed up of gore games, and eventually enjoy the new games ideas that come out."

I don't know if that's necessarily true. I think it would come in waves. Some generations like gore. Some don't. Still, thanks for your thoughts!

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Posted: 21st Aug 2012 01:12 Edited at: 21st Aug 2012 01:17
Quote: "Technology is research. You don't advance technology unless you do research."


I came up with Neural Network Robots as a natural progression of game evolution. Robot Wars was good, but too limited.

This bike evolution game...

http://megaswf.com/simple_serve/102223/

Could become a robot fighting evolution game. I didn't research these things, you just remember what has gone before. It's just a natural way to progress game technology.

So you train your robot to dodge, to punch, to use weapons, to pick up weapons, to be nimble, to jump, to roll, to get close, to move back. Buy weapons, and add-ons online. Then match your robot against someone else's robot. Have a World Championship for the top 10 robots, and watch it on TV.

Aaron Miller
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Posted: 21st Aug 2012 01:42
Quote: "I didn't research these things"

You did your own research.

Quote: "re·search/ˈrēˌsərCH/
Noun:
The systematic investigation into and study of materials and sources in order to establish facts and reach new conclusions.
Verb:
Investigate systematically."


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Posted: 21st Aug 2012 01:49
There's a difference between being a grammar nazi and simply being unable to comprehend something because it's so badly written. And if you're calling Pincho a "grammar nazi" why haven't you given me the same treatment when I was actually far more critical? Seems like this is more about attacking Pincho because it's Pincho.

Shh... you're pretty.
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Posted: 21st Aug 2012 01:49 Edited at: 21st Aug 2012 01:53
Nah, Robot Wars was on TV years ago. I didn't research it as part of a computer game for the future. And now we have HD, and better Neural Networks, faster Internet. Just the final could be in HD using a base computer with the same robot parts but High Poly.

Libervurto
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Posted: 21st Aug 2012 01:51
Quote: "The systematic investigation into and study of materials and sources in order to establish facts and reach new conclusions."

There's nothing systematic about vaguely remembering a TV show.

Shh... you're pretty.
Aaron Miller
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Posted: 21st Aug 2012 02:00
OBese, I was referring to you.

I just re-read Pincho's post. I was under the impression he had made his own game involving some sort of neural network (which I now realize he hadn't). Under that context, he would've done research. Since he hadn't, his argument doesn't apply because he didn't actually "advance technology," so to speak. He stated an idea, but he didn't do any research into actually applying it, then doing so. If he had, that would be systematic.

Quote: "There's a difference between being a grammar nazi and simply being unable to comprehend something because it's so badly written."

It's not difficult if you just read the article. I don't see any issues that are so bad that it can't be comprehended. I'm not sure if you're just trolling or not. I hope you are, for obvious reasons.

Again, I'm sorry that there's a communication breakdown here. It's unfortunate, but not the topic.

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Posted: 21st Aug 2012 02:08 Edited at: 21st Aug 2012 02:10
Quote: "It's not difficult if you just read the article. I don't see any issues that are so bad that it can't be comprehended. "


It is so bad it cannot be comprehended. Me, and OBese87 have pointed out that it has various meanings per sentence. It's like the lottery if you get most of it. You have missed the point yourself as far as I can tell. You seem to have associated research with technology, and I think that the point was money. So it's a lottery.

Libervurto
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Posted: 21st Aug 2012 02:14
What is the topic?
Are we talking about there being too much violence in video-games? Or that video-games are becoming less violent? Or specifically about E3 and whether it is out of touch with the gaming community? Or are game developers out of touch?

Shh... you're pretty.
Aaron Miller
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Posted: 21st Aug 2012 02:52 Edited at: 21st Aug 2012 02:55
Quote: "You seem to have associated research with technology, and I think that the point was money."

Research necessarily goes into technology before technology advances. It was a response to something else you said, not what I think the entire article is about. I didn't say anywhere that it is what the entire article is about either, so I'm not sure how you've inferred that.

Quote: "What is the topic?"

I suppose that would be better asked as "What are the topics?" There are mistakes in the article, and that may make it difficult to take it seriously. Still, I've interpreted the article as having a few different points. The main point is the arguments the article is making. Read my comment to Pincho:
Quote: "perhaps you could simply provide your thoughts on whether large game companies are destroying or helping the indie market. It's not 100% on-topic, but it's close enough and somewhat related to the overall intention of this thread."


The main point was to discuss the content of the article, but since that has proven too difficult, how about using the topic suggested in the quote above?

CoffeeGrunt
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Posted: 21st Aug 2012 02:59
@Obese

They also overlooked my "gramamr nazi" post. :/

To be fair, if someone walked up to you and said, "Hewwo, can ah hab a ten powm nott plees?" Well, you wouldn't treat them the same as other people. Grammar is the same, and when it gets to the point where I have to double-check the sentence - every sentence - to get its meaning, I decide that the author put as little thought into the content of the piece as he did the grammar.

And to be fair, everyone's just making this into that overdone, ten-a-penny, "mainstream devs have no imagination, money, yadda yadda, Y they no Indie?"

Also, I'm looking forward to Metro: Last Light. Releasing early 2013, and it looks promising for a slight breath of fresh air. Metro 2033 was very enjoyable for me, and the book was also good.
Quik
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Posted: 21st Aug 2012 03:02
Quote: "perhaps you could simply provide your thoughts on whether large game companies are destroying or helping the indie market. It's not 100% on-topic, but it's close enough and somewhat related to the overall intention of this thread."


I dont know really, I'd say they do put indies a bit in the shadows, but.. They bring a lot of good technology (UE engine, and I doubt Unity would exist if it werent for AAA market...)



Whose eyes are those eyes?
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Posted: 21st Aug 2012 11:53
The reason Pincho is the centre of attention is because he's spamming this thread with off topic material, aka "trolling".

Could we please get back on topic?!

TheComet

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Pincho Paxton
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Posted: 21st Aug 2012 15:52
Fourth insult in a week. The topic was the link. I already answered the second topic with my Neural Networks are the future.

TheComet
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Posted: 21st Aug 2012 19:18
Quote: "The content was unreadable, the words were wrong. I can understand babelfish better than that link. I said that I couldn't understand it, so how do I discuss the content? I can guess what he meant, but guessing is hardly going with the content. I went over the first three sentences 50 times, and had no clue what they meant. It would probably take me 4 hours to get to the end."


THEN DON'T POST! If you don't understand it, why even post about it? The most you can say is that you don't understand it, and that's pretty much what you've done! I don't go to the DBP board, open up some thread about "how to slice 4 dimensional space with a hyperplane" and let everyone know that I don't understand it. That would be stupid, and it clutters up the thread!

Quote: "[quote]Seriously, it's not hard to read. As humans we're supposed to be able to handle a margin of error. That post is within my acceptable threshold (as well as TheComet's). Look for the meaning, don't analyze the individual words."


Well, OK, so a game is it a game.. yes! The journalists who are depressed should try prozac, or something. The obscurity, of whatever sounds like a good thing. I like obscure games. If you're not remarkable then try to improve your talents.[/quote]

I hope I'm right about this. That comment was genius! It took me a while to notice you're being sarcastic and pointing out that one must look at what one writes.

Quote: "And to be fair, everyone's just making this into that overdone, ten-a-penny, "mainstream devs have no imagination, money, yadda yadda, Y they no Indie?""


Yes, there are of course exceptions, but they are too few in number. Such as this:

Quote: "Also, I'm looking forward to Metro: Last Light. Releasing early 2013, and it looks promising for a slight breath of fresh air. Metro 2033 was very enjoyable for me, and the book was also good. "


TheComet

"if you don't understand recursion than you probably don't understand recursion." ~Jerico2day
bitJericho
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Posted: 21st Aug 2012 19:44 Edited at: 21st Aug 2012 19:45
Because if a statement or article isn't written properly, it casts serious doubt on the originality of the idea or the validity of the underlying point itself.

Libervurto
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Posted: 21st Aug 2012 20:01
Quote: "THEN DON'T POST! If you don't understand it, why even post about it? The most you can say is that you don't understand it, and that's pretty much what you've done! I don't go to the DBP board, open up some thread about "how to slice 4 dimensional space with a hyperplane" and let everyone know that I don't understand it. That would be stupid, and it clutters up the thread!"

We are a community, and since this article has been brought into the community everyone is entitled and encouraged to give their opinion on it. I don't see why starting a thread on something you don't understand would be a bad thing, you might learn something from others. I don't think it would be of value to start a discussion on an article simply to criticise the author but that's not what happened here.

I think the vagueness and illiteracy of the article in question makes any conversation on this thread a convoluted mess. There's no clear point of discussion. If you want to have a discussion about the games industry that's great, but tagging an incomprehensible article onto the discussion is only going to disperse any meaningful stream of conversation.

Shh... you're pretty.
Aaron Miller
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Posted: 21st Aug 2012 23:28 Edited at: 21st Aug 2012 23:30
The article is written badly. That doesn't necessarily mean it's unreadable though. Try skim reading and just finding the appropriate ideas. Then evaluate the ideas yourself. If you're willing to take the time to comment about how bad of an article it is, I don't see why you wouldn't be willing to take the time to figure out what he's trying to say.

Quote: "Because if a statement or article isn't written properly, it casts serious doubt on the originality of the idea or the validity of the underlying point itself."

A few years ago I would've agreed with that. As time went on I realized how arrogant and ignorant that is though.

Quote: "To be fair, if someone walked up to you and said, "Hewwo, can ah hab a ten powm nott plees?" Well, you wouldn't treat them the same as other people."

Why not? The person may be new to the country, trying his (or her) best to learn English, and trying to integrate. Or, perhaps that person may have a legitimate speech impediment, possibly caused by an injury. Treating them differently (which I mean in a derogatory sense) because they don't speak well is wrong.

----

Quote: "Yes, there are of course exceptions, but they are too few in number."

It's interesting how there's almost always an exception to something.

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Posted: 22nd Aug 2012 00:39
Quote: "A few years ago I would've agreed with that. As time went on I realized how arrogant and ignorant that is though.
"


I've read enough of my fair share of bad books and articles. In fact I personally had no trouble reading this article. But the lack of grammar and spelling is a very good indicator on overall quality. I mean look at the whole point of this article. There's nothing original about it. It's an ok piece, but yeah I couldn't bother to read every word, it was just ok.

You wanna read something good? Try this article:

http://jeff-vogel.blogspot.com/2012/08/oh-god-my-face-my-horrible-horrible-face.html

Unintentionally, he makes a good counterpoint to the article this discussion's about. (it's all about having a game that's fun, interesting, and worth talking about at all).

Libervurto
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Posted: 22nd Aug 2012 01:19
Quote: "If you're willing to take the time to comment about how bad of an article it is, I don't see why you wouldn't be willing to take the time to figure out what he's trying to say."

I did but it's so ambiguous I can attach any meaning I like to it, so it's a pointless exercise.

Poor grammar indicates a lack of effort. There's a reason grammar exists and writers should take pride in making their work as fluent and enjoyable to read as possible. I wouldn't expect this of the average forum post but an article needs to be held to higher standards, even if it's just a personal blog. If you can't write with proper grammar you're a bad writer, and no matter what you have to say there are thousands of others with more original ideas and a better writing style. If you can't communicate your ideas they're worthless.

Shh... you're pretty.
Aaron Miller
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Posted: 22nd Aug 2012 01:30 Edited at: 22nd Aug 2012 01:30
Jerico, I appreciate your response (and the article was amusing, thanks!) but I still have to disagree to an extent. While in general articles it's likely you're right more often than not, in whitepapers and similar articles, that's less likely (in my experience). For example, reading some of the stuff from D.I.C.E. (and similar countries), which are written in English but have bad grammar, is usually nothing less than educational. The ideas they have are usually (always?) valid. So, in these cases, I try to look past bad language. I also have dyslexic friends who have great ideas. I don't judge them differently for how they write.

All I'm trying to say is that it's probably not the best method for judging content. Had the article used "txt speak" though, I wouldn't have posted it at all though. (i.e., it hasn't touched my own personal threshold of acceptability.)

Seppuku Arts
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Posted: 22nd Aug 2012 01:31 Edited at: 22nd Aug 2012 01:36
I don't think it's fair to discriminate based on use of language. Yes, it isn't very well written, but what that means is he's not going to publish his articles in a reputable media outlet, it might mean he doesn't have much of a writing career ahead of him. Maybe his blog is just a bit on the side. You might not be able to take him seriously as an editor or even a writer, but people whose grammar is below par aren't necessarily less intelligent nor does it mean lack of clarity of thought. They just lack the necessary skills to put it into a 100% clear way. I would expect what they've written to be readable, yes, but I wouldn't make a big deal out of it. If I can't read it, I'd either not read it and move on or not read it and leave a comment saying I couldn't read it and maybe offer some constructive crit to the guy specifically and leave it there (though with the number of followers he's got, it might be embarrassing and a bit of a d-bag move to do publicly).

Also, I understood the article. I just read it like somebody was speaking to me. As I suggested in the posting competition, a lot of grammatical errors are made because the way people often write is conversational. Speech is full of grammatical errors and regardless of that fact we are capable of understanding each other and we are able to put what people say into context. If you didn't understand it, fairdoes, but I think it should kinda be left there, but in good old TGC forums fashion there had to be a discussion about it.

Quote: "To be fair, if someone walked up to you and said, "Hewwo, can ah hab a ten powm nott plees?" Well, you wouldn't treat them the same as other people. "


I would. Like everybody else, unless I was close enough to them, I would say, "no, sorry mate, I don't have a tenner on me." If the guy was as well spoken as Stephen Fry, I still would say no, the suspicion is not caused by the fact they can't speak clearly, but by the fact that a stranger is asking me for money. Not all people with unclear speech are untrustworthy either. Generally the guy asking you for money in the street, unless they're a charity worker (heck, even then, they can be false), is somebody you're unlikely to trust, they could well be using that money for drugs and they don't have to look like or speak like a typical druggy.

Language? It's a difficult indicator, you'd need other signs - body language is usually a big plus in that respect. Some people who talk like a scrounger can be honest hardworking people. It's just the environment they've grown up in, or they think it's cool or it's the people around them or even, they've not received a very good standard of education in school to break them out of the habit (maybe they've chosen not to), but they might be fantastic at what kind of work they've trained themselves for or highly knowledgable in subjects they care about.




Anyway! In attempt to spin stuff in a more positive direction and get back onto the topic Aaron seemed to want to discuss (and by the way, no one person can be blamed for off topicness, it takes 2 to tango ). In essence this is about the future of gaming and the forumlaic approach to game making, at least based on a model the article writer referred to. I think to a degree, it's a good thing - as I said, in a game series you expect the next game to be a natural progression from the last game. I would not want to see Zelda suddenly become the beacon of innovation in modern video games. People play Zelda for Zelda.

But obviously we like to play something new, maybe something with more originality. I keep saying the same thing about movies too. I think occassionally there is a nice gem out there worth playing. Heck, I think a good game can take something cliched but do something different with it, something more original. In the current generation of games, there have been some out there like that. One for me was Nier, which, when you look at it, it doesn't seem original, heck it got bad reviews, but...well, if you're a JRPG fan, I would say play it, it makes itself a memorable experience. But I doubt it's everybody's cup of tea.

Although I agree with the general message of the article, I do think once so many concepts have been done, it's really hard to be original, because it seems like everything has been done before. But I do like games that try and do something that is different and I think they can make an impression.

I don't think 'indie' is the ultimate platform of new ideas, certainly there's smaller risks and I think indie games can be refreshing, but bear in mind also, indies do end up having to rely on a stable income as it is their primary source of income (at least, successful ones) and whilst their success might not affect as many jobs as say, EA, but I imagine (and kinda judging from comments left by tha_rami in another thread) that there is motivation for your game to be successful, at least enough to pay your way. Making risks can waste time and cost money (probably hence Rami's comment about the Ouya being too big of a risk). So I don't think indies are complete rebels to market trends. I also think to a degree, we expect indies to give us something quirky and they sell their games at such low prices, we're willing to make that punt. If it sucks, well, that's a money wasted that could have gone on a pint of beer.

[edit]
I've written a load of paragraphs and only 3 smilies. So please, read this post as something that was calmly written. I've been accused of being angry when I've had a low smiley to paragraph ratio before now.

Thank you.

Quik
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Posted: 22nd Aug 2012 02:03
Quote: "To be fair, if someone walked up to you and said, "Hewwo, can ah hab a ten powm nott plees?" Well, you wouldn't treat them the same as other people. "


when I was about 5-6 I met with a stranger (yes I was stupid, i was young.) who wasnt from sweden - he had VERY hard speaking even english - couldnt get a whole sentence right. He wanted to borrow a phone, i didnt have any on me - so after a while I did manage to understand him, and I took him home.

I didnt say: WHAHAH YOU CANT EVEN AHAHAH SPEAK ENGLISH?! AHHAHA

I would do the same today - well, maybe not bring him home but - I would treat him just like any other human being and try to help - try to understand.



Whose eyes are those eyes?
Slow Programmer
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Joined: 5th Apr 2006
Location: USA, Tennessee
Posted: 22nd Aug 2012 02:06
I just came to this thread to see the porn and all I found was a picture of Colonel Klink. You guys are a little strange

There are two kinds of computer users. Those that use Macs and those that wish they did.

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