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Geek Culture / Design of artificial intelligence must read

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angelangel
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Posted: 24th Apr 2013 03:04
Design of artificial intelligence must read

[1 paradox]Why 0.999... is not equal to 1?

Written in 2012

The current mathematic theory tells us, 1>0.9, 1>0.99, 1>0.999, ..., but at last it says 1=0.999..., a negation of itself (Proof 0.999... =1: 1/9=0.111..., 1/9x9=1, 0.111...x9=0.999..., so 1=0.999...). So it is totally a paradox, name it as 【1 paradox】. You see this is a mathematic problem at first, actually it is a philosophic problem. Then we can resolve it. Because math is a incomplete theory, only philosophy could be a complete one. The answer is that 0.999... is not equal to 1. Because of these reasons:

1. The infinite world and finite world.

We live in one world but made up of two parts: the infinite part and the finite part. But we develop our mathematic system based on the finite part, because we never entered into the infinite part. Your attention, God is in it.

0.999... is a number in the infinite world, but 1 is a number in the finite world. For example, 1 represents an apple. But then 0.999...? We don't know. That is to say, we can't use a number in the infinite world to plus a number in the finite world. For example, an apple plus an apple, we say it is 1+1=2, we get two apples, but if it is an apple plus a banana, we only can say we get two fruits. The key problem is we don't know what is 0.999..., we can get nothing. So we can't say 9+0.999...=9.999... or 10, etc.

We can use "infinite world" and "finite world" to resolve some of zeno's paradox, too.

2. lim0.999...=1, not 0.999...=1.

3.The indeterminate principle.

Because of the indeterminate principle, 1/9 is not equal to 0.111....

For example, cut an apple into nine equal parts, then every part of it is 1/9. But if you use different measure tools to measure the volume of every part, it is indeterminate. That is to say, you may find the volume could not exactly be 0.111..., but it would be 0.123, 0.1142, or 0.11425, etc.

Now we end a biggest mathematical crisis. But most important is this standpoint tells us, our world is only a sample from a sample space. When you realized this, and that the current probability theory is wrong, when you find the Meta-sample-space, you would be able to create a real AI-system. It will indicate that there must be one God-system in the system, which is the controller. Look our world, there must be one God, as for us, only some robots. Maybe we are in a God's game, WHO KNOWS?

相关阅读
★概率论:完全可能性的理论与现实图景
★悖论问题的统一解
★从延安文艺座谈会到人类社会的未来
★发现号航天飞机——自然算法伟大的飞矢变换
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★诸神之战在星际争霸1的实现[001]AI游戏的发端

More info, two other download points(written in Chinese):
(1)speedyshare.com/DQz9y/AiforSC.rar
(2)filerio.in/kw4cl2l2y3qi

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Phaelax
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Posted: 24th Apr 2013 05:25
Quote: "[1 paradox]Why 0.999... is not equal to 1?"


How is that a paradox? Of course 0.9 doesn't equal 1, it's only 0.9!

"You're all wrong. You're all idiots." ~Fluffy Rabbit
ionstream
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Posted: 24th Apr 2013 05:27
Actually it's been scientifically proven that 0.999~ = 1 because a wizard did it. QED.

Zotoaster
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Posted: 24th Apr 2013 05:33
I hope you realise the "..." after "0.999..." means that the 9 is recurring, which means that it does in fact equal 1. I posted a few proofs here: http://forum.thegamecreators.com/?m=forum_view&t=169651&b=2

I don't know what the rest of your post is supposed to mean, or how it related to recurring numbers, AI, or God.

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Chris Tate
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Posted: 24th Apr 2013 05:39
Looks we are talking to a bot

easter bunny
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Posted: 24th Apr 2013 05:48 Edited at: 24th Apr 2013 05:54
It's the same as how parallel lines meet at the end.

Another interesting paradox, although this one's actually just bad logic.
Not enough Pizza is bad for you.
TRUE!
reason.
It's a Tautological statement, the very definition of 'Not enough', is 'so little that it's bad for you'. which means that, in effect, I said: "If you have so little pizza that it's bad for you, then it's bad for you". Which if obviously true.
Now you may argue that because it's impossible to "Not have enough Pizza", then the statement ISN'T true, this is not correct. If I said "if I suddenly turn into a horse, then I'll be a horse", it's true, even though it's impossible.
Here's some other interesting things you can say, that are true,
Not enough Arsenic is bad for you (Suicidal people remember this one)
Not enough Homework is bad for you (teachers/parents remember this one)
Not enough gaming is bad for you (kids/husbands remember this one )

of course, you aren't actually proving anything, in fact your not even saying* anything, it just sounds like it

*Where saying is giving information.

Dark Java Dude 64
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Posted: 24th Apr 2013 06:04 Edited at: 24th Apr 2013 06:05
Very many neat points you made! I shall be intriguing my friends with this concept now.

http://www.google.com/
easter bunny
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Posted: 24th Apr 2013 06:20 Edited at: 24th Apr 2013 06:25
Quote: "angelangel
User

Joined: Wed Apr 24th 2013
Location: Cyberspace "

This is also his only post

Translation of Chinese
Related Reading
★ probability theory: completely the possibility of theory and realistic picture of
★ paradox Unified Solution
★ to the future of human society from the Yan'an Forum on Literature and Art
★ discovered the great Flying Arrow transformation of the space shuttle - natural algorithm
★ StarCraft AI design ideas: Terran start
Clash of the Titans ★ StarCraft achieve [001] AI game originator

Files are probably malicious

edit: both downloads require some sort or login/long wait, could be a way of trying to get more users for these sites.

mr Handy
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Posted: 24th Apr 2013 08:46
Disregarding first post,

@Zotoaster
Quote: "First proof:
1/3 = 0.333...
3 * 1/3 = 0.999...
1 = 0.999...
"

3*1/3=1
1/3 is NOT equal 0.333, it's ROUGHLY equal 0.333
It's proof that you missed math classes I guess.

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Dark Java Dude 64
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Posted: 24th Apr 2013 08:55 Edited at: 24th Apr 2013 08:56
Quote: "I hope you realise the "..." after "0.999..." means that the 9 is recurring"
He missed math class? No, I think you missed him saying that. One divided by three is zero point three repeating, that's what he's saying. Zero point three repeating is zero point nine repeating, but because any number, A, divided by another number, B, shall produce a quotient, C, that when multiplied by B shall produce A. Therefore, one divided by B then multiplied by B equals one, and in this case we came up with zero point nine repeating. This is therefore proof that zero point nine repeating is indeed equal to one.

You seem to be using a translator, so I assume that's causing the confusion. That's why I put everything into worded notation.

http://www.google.com/
mr Handy
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Posted: 24th Apr 2013 09:26
Yes, I heard about USA math... Now 0,999=1. Please, continue, it's very fascinating.

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Dark Java Dude 64
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Posted: 24th Apr 2013 09:35 Edited at: 24th Apr 2013 09:36
Can't tell if you're being sarcastic, and if so, I have really no clue what you aren't getting about it.

http://www.google.com/
mr Handy
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Posted: 24th Apr 2013 09:45 Edited at: 24th Apr 2013 09:49
Bot in the OP said that 1=0,999. I disagree, and obviously why.

Only one real paradox I know - it's the 32-bit float GPU math. We think that it is high precision, but it's not...

Also, take a calc and try to calculate 2+2*2

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easter bunny
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Posted: 24th Apr 2013 10:18
Quote: "Also, take a calc and try to calculate 2+2*2"

That's because it knows what you don't
you always do the +'s last
ie
2+(2*2)
You do the * first (2*2=4) then add the 2 (4+2=6)

mr Handy
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Posted: 24th Apr 2013 10:26
Oh that's great, everything's not lost yet!

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Phaelax
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Posted: 24th Apr 2013 18:11
I'm aware it was a repeating decimal. That still doesn't make it equal 1. It makes it infinitely close to 1. But no matter how many 9's you put after that decimal, it'll never reach 1.

"You're all wrong. You're all idiots." ~Fluffy Rabbit
Dark Frager
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Posted: 24th Apr 2013 18:34
Quote: "I'm aware it was a repeating decimal. That still doesn't make it equal 1. It makes it infinitely close to 1. But no matter how many 9's you put after that decimal, it'll never reach 1.
"


No offense to anyone, but this is the smartest thing I've read in this thread. 0.999... does not equal 1 for the simple reason that it is NOT 1.

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ionstream
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Posted: 24th Apr 2013 18:45
Dangit Phaelax you are trolling me hard! https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/0.999....

Dark Frager
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Posted: 24th Apr 2013 18:57
I refuse to believe 0.999... equals to 1. It just doesn't. Where is the whole "one" in 0.999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999?

Nowhere.

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Zotoaster
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Posted: 24th Apr 2013 19:18
0.999... (note the '...') shouldn't be thought of as a number, but more as a process or a function, who's result = 1. This isn't just "USA math", this is universal.

Let me use the geometric proof I used in the original thread. A geometric series, you'll hopefully remember from high-school/early uni, is defined as:

a1 + a2*r + a3*r^2 + a4*r^3 + ... = ar / (1 - r)

This is a process, not a number in itself, but you'll notice on the RHS of the '=' you can actually calculate what *actual* number the process leads to, if you continue for an infinite amount of terms.

In the 0.999... example, a=9, and r=1/10 = 0.1, so,

ar / (1 - r) = (9 * 0.1) / (1-0.1) = 0.9 / 0.9 = 1

This isn't just an estimation, it's a proof that works. Remember, 0.999... is not a number, but a function, and the value of that function = 1.

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Dark Frager
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Posted: 24th Apr 2013 19:35
Ok, but why are we bringing functions and weird calculations into simple numbers? Why can't people just accept that 0.999... is equal to 0.999... and not 1? Why over-complicate things that are initially simple?

To me 0.999 recurring stays as 0.999 recurring and nothing else.

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Chris Tate
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Posted: 24th Apr 2013 19:36
Are you 99.999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999% sure?

Insert Name Here
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Posted: 24th Apr 2013 19:39
Quote: "Ok, but why are we bringing functions and weird calculations into simple numbers? Why can't people just accept that 0.999... is equal to 0.999... and not 1? "


So basically, I see your proof but I want things to be simple so I refuse to try to understand.

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Posted: 24th Apr 2013 19:43
Quote: "So basically, I see your proof but I want things to be simple so I refuse to try to understand."


That's not my point at all. I understand the proof why it might (or does) equal 1, but I really don't see why people try to prove it does equal to 1, when logically, it does not.

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Insert Name Here
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Posted: 24th Apr 2013 20:03 Edited at: 24th Apr 2013 20:05
Quote: "I understand the proof why it might (or does) equal 1, but I really don't see why people try to prove it does equal to 1, when logically, it does not."


What? This is totally meaningless in every way. People try to prove it equals one when logically it does not because it does equal one (although some may argue that it's completely logical that it equals one). You can't ask for simple proof when the concept isn't simple to begin with.

As if it needed any more emphasis,
Quote: "Remember, 0.999... is not a number, but a function, and the value of that function = 1."


Edit: Also, we both still have Christmas hats. We look like two massively out of touch folks having a conversation

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Posted: 24th Apr 2013 20:04 Edited at: 24th Apr 2013 20:15
It's because some professors are too lazy to write down (or press on calc) all those 9's

And this proof like 1=3*1/3=3*0.333=0.999 is crap, because they use cheat - they state that 0.(3) is 0.(9)/3 when it does not.

Zadronov's mediocre jokes about US math are too real.

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Dark Frager
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Posted: 24th Apr 2013 20:15
Quote: "it does equal one"


No it does not. 0.999... as a number does not equal to 1 and I do not see any reason why someone would argue that it does. 0.99999 is not 1.0, no matter how many 9's there are after that decimal point.

I don't care about any functions or calculations. 0.999... remains as 0.999... and that's the way it is.

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Insert Name Here
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Posted: 24th Apr 2013 20:22
Quote: "I don't care about any functions or calculations. 0.999... remains as 0.999... and that's the way it is."




ionstream
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Posted: 24th Apr 2013 20:38
Goodness people. This is not something for which there is any debate among mathematicians. It has a myriad of proofs that exclusively use that crazy "logic" stuff, hence proofs.

Quote: "I don't care about any functions or calculations. 0.999... remains as 0.999... and that's the way it is."


I'd hate to see what you think about 0.5 + 0.5!

Michael P
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Posted: 24th Apr 2013 21:05
Its funny that such debate was started by a spam bot.

It is hard to accept but it is true that 0.9 recurring = 1.0.

I am not a maths expert but the way I see it, it is a problem with the way humans perceive infinity. For some reason, most people's minds get it wrong.

e.g. we have a frog and a lake. The frog wants to get to the other side of the lake. It can jump half the distance between it and the other side of the lake in one time step. Given infinite time, will it ever reach the other side of the lake? I think the answer is yes.. but most people would assume that it never reaches the other side but get very close.

Alternatively I could be talking complete nonsense :p not sure..

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Posted: 24th Apr 2013 21:30 Edited at: 24th Apr 2013 21:42
0.(9) is the largest value less than 1. It will infinetely moving to 1 but will never reach it.

If some of US minds need Pi to be 3,2 - it's their right.
We are democratic union, we accept and tolerate all delusions without any proofs.

Everyone that writes again that 0.(9) = 1 is a fat troll.

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Dark Frager
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Posted: 24th Apr 2013 21:59
Quote: "I'd hate to see what you think about 0.5 + 0.5!"


It equals 1, whereas 0.999 recurring does not.

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Matty H
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Posted: 24th Apr 2013 22:00
0.(9) or 0.999... = 1

Quote: "No it does not. 0.999... as a number does not equal to 1 and I do not see any reason why someone would argue that it does. 0.99999 is not 1.0, no matter how many 9's there are after that decimal point."


You are right in a way, no matter how many 9's you add it will never equal 1. But if you add an infinite amount of 9s then it does equal 1.

This can't be visualised or imagined since we can't comprehend infinity as such.


Quote: "e.g. we have a frog and a lake. The frog wants to get to the other side of the lake. It can jump half the distance between it and the other side of the lake in one time step. Given infinite time, will it ever reach the other side of the lake? I think the answer is yes.. but most people would assume that it never reaches the other side but get very close."


This.

mr Handy
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Posted: 24th Apr 2013 22:12
Matty H is a fat troll. Ok. Who else? Gentlemen, get in line.

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The Zoq2
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Posted: 24th Apr 2013 22:21
Im not realy seeing the logic here... why would 0.9 become one because you add another .9 to it. If you have the number 0.9999 and add another one to it, you will get 0.99999. It's closer to one than before but you can still add another 9 without it becomming 1. It is true that 0.999~1 but it isn't realy one.

If 0.9999 is so close to being one that it becomes one, dosn't 0.9999...8 become 0.999.... because it's realy close to it. But since 0.999999.... = 1, 0.9999...8 will also equal to 1. And in turn 0.999...7 = 0.999...8 = 0.9999... = 1. That would make all numbers the same value and I don't think any of you would argue against the fact that 1 != 2
Michael P
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Posted: 24th Apr 2013 22:30
You can't add another 9 to the end of an infinite sequence of 9's.

The proof for it is essentially that if 0.3 recurring is one third, three thirds is 1.

The underlying point is that infinity isn't a number.

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Posted: 24th Apr 2013 22:44
This all makes absolutely zero sense. At what point in the massive string of 9's does it get the 0.00000000(...)0.1 to make it equal 1? If it doesn't, then clearly it can't equal one.

Come at me with your theories and advanced calculations, bros.

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The Zoq2
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Posted: 24th Apr 2013 22:44
Quote: "The proof for it is essentially that if 0.3 recurring is one third, three thirds is 1."


When you put it that way, it makes a lot more sense
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Posted: 24th Apr 2013 22:45 Edited at: 24th Apr 2013 22:46

16-36=25-45
(4)^2-2*4*(9/2)=(5)^2-2*5*(9/2)
(4)^2-2*4*(9/2)+(9/2)^2=(5)^2-2*5*(9/2)+(9/2)^2 ... a^2-2*a*b+b^2=(a-b)^2
(4-9/2)^2=(5-9/2)^2
4-9/2=5-9/2
4=5... 2+2=5

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The Zoq2
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Posted: 24th Apr 2013 22:54
Actually, isn't there a diffirence between 0.999999... and 0.3333333... * 3

The proof that (1/3) * 3 = 1 also means that 0.333... * 3 = 1. That means that 0.333... * 3 or (1/3) * 3 can't also = 0.999999....

Is 0.3333.... actually even the same as 1/3? If you have an infinite number of 3's, you can allways add one more 3 to make it more precise. Isn't 1/3 = 0.3333... just an estimation? However close 0.33333... gets to 1/3, it won't actually reach 1/3.
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Posted: 24th Apr 2013 22:57 Edited at: 24th Apr 2013 22:59
Quote: "Is 0.3333.... actually even the same as 1/3?"

Yes it is, fat troll.

Also, anyone dowloaded those files in OP?

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The Zoq2
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Posted: 24th Apr 2013 23:17
Im not trolling, it is a legitimate thought...
Michael P
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Posted: 24th Apr 2013 23:18
0.9 recurring is different from 0.999.. with as many 9s as you want. If I say that there are infinitely many 9s in 0.9 recurring, then you can't possibly add another nine to the end of that, because there are already infinitely many.

0.9 recurring is the decimal result of 0.3 recurring * 3.

We can say:
1 = 0.9 recurring
and
0.9 recurring = 1

So we can therefore say:
1/3 * 3 = 1
and
1/3 * 3 = 0.9 recurring

Quote: "Is 0.3333.... actually even the same as 1/3?"

0.3 recurring = 1/3, but 0.333333 with any number of 3s is less than 1/3.

Dark Frager
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Posted: 24th Apr 2013 23:20
So there is an infinite amount of 9's, which means it is infinitely close to 1? That makes slightly more sense now.

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Michael P
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Posted: 24th Apr 2013 23:24 Edited at: 24th Apr 2013 23:25
Yeah exactly, see my frog example earlier.

See the frog example I posted earlier:
Quote: "e.g. we have a frog and a lake. The frog wants to get to the other side of the lake. It can jump half the distance between it and the other side of the lake in one time step. Given infinite time, will it ever reach the other side of the lake? I think the answer is yes.. but most people would assume that it never reaches the other side but get very close."


So I think to be infinitely close to something is to be in the same place as something. Its just our brains automatically wrongly equate 0.9 recurring to = 0.99999999 (with a large number of 9s).

ionstream
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Posted: 24th Apr 2013 23:25
I find it completely silly and baffling that people can be presented with a series of completely logical and sound proofs and still be in disbelief because it doesn't "feel" right. I also feel silly harping on this subject because its been discussed at least 3 times on this board alone, and discussed on the internet approximately infinity times.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/0.999...#Skepticism_in_education
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/0.999...#In_popular_culture

Quote: "At what point in the massive string of 9's does it get the 0.00000000(...)0.1 to make it equal 1?"


What massive string of 9's? It's an infinitely long list of 9's. It does not end. There is no "point" at which it becomes 1. The sum of 0.9 + 0.09 + 0.009 ... and so forth ... is 1.

Let's divide 1 by 9. Doing this the long division way, 9 goes into 1 0 times. .9 goes into 1 once, leaving 0.1 as the remainder. 0.09 goes into 0.1 once again, leaving 0.01 as the remainder. So far we have .11, with 0.01 as the remainder. Continuing this indefinitely, we will keep adding 1's to our number. For shorthand, lets just call this 0.111~. Since 1 over 9 is now 0.111~, we have our equation:

1/9 = 0.111~

Multiplying both sides by 9 is trivial. 1/9 times 9 is 1. What about our shorthand 0.111~? Assuming we have been to elementary school, we know that we simply multiply each digit by 9. Starting from the left, 0*0 is 0, 1*9 is 9, 1*9 is 9, 1*9 is nine. So now we have 0.999. Continuing this multiplication indefinitely will just yield more 9's, so lets make a new shorthand for this number. Are you ready for it? Get ready for it.

0.999~

This is middle school level math.

If 0.999~ is not one, then 1 - 0.999 would be some real number. You might be tempted to say that this number is "infinitely close to 1" and present a number like 0.000...1. Since this number says "add an infinite number of zeroes, then add 1", it is effectively saying "never add a 1" because there will be no point where the infinite number of 0's ends, allowing for a 1. Since this number is now just zero, 1 - 0.999~ = 0. Therefore they are equal.

mr Handy
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Posted: 24th Apr 2013 23:27 Edited at: 24th Apr 2013 23:32
@Michael P
Another fat troll, welcome!

Maybe you will be so kind to explain, how can 0.(3)*3=1 AND =0.(9) at the same time?

@Dark Frager
Quote: "So there is an infinite amount of 9's, which means it is infinitely close to 1? That makes slightly more sense now."


mr Handy
Posted: 24th Apr 2013 22:30 Edited: 24th Apr 2013 22:42
Quote: "0.(9) is the largest value less than 1. It will infinetely moving to 1 but will never reach it."


Tonight I learned that people outside of russia can't count to 1.
Right now I learned that they can't read either.

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Michael P
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Posted: 24th Apr 2013 23:33
@ mr Handy
That's what my post explains.
and many other posts on this thread.

Take a break from the thread and think about the maths. It is simple mathematically but difficult conceptually.

and stop calling everyone fat trolls

rolfy
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Posted: 24th Apr 2013 23:35
I am definitely s fat Troll

reductio ad absurdum

I don't trip over...I do random gravity checks.
Seppuku Arts
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Posted: 24th Apr 2013 23:41 Edited at: 24th Apr 2013 23:42
Quote: "@Michael P
Another fat troll, welcome!

Maybe you will be so kind to explain, how can 0.(3)*3=1 AND =0.(9) at the same time?
"


Just because you either don't agree with something or don't understand something doesn't mean they're trolling. Unless you're in fact trolling them by calling them trolls, in which case, it's trollception and nobody should take anything you say seriously.

Yes, last time this thread came up, I did argue against it, but I was at least more respectful and was more willing to listen so that I may learn than to ignorantly assume people were trolling or BSing me or had missed math class. It's not a case of American maths (for example, Zotoaster is Scottish), rather it is something that is more widely accepted and it's not accepted to try and dumb down maths.

A resource and some proofs have been explained to you, so you do have a starting point for trying to understand the argument.

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