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Geek Culture / Design of artificial intelligence must read

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mr Handy
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Posted: 29th Apr 2013 00:57 Edited at: 29th Apr 2013 01:02
Quote: "A lot of your posts are incredibly snarky and sarcastic as well."

That's true.

Quote: "I've found a picture accurately reflecting where this thread is heading."

I'm the boy in blue shirt

P.S.
Quote: "You can also write it as "one", "1.0", "0.999...""

I have 0.(9) fathers! Oh lord, there is corpsman again! Gotta run!

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Chris Tate
DBPro Master
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Posted: 29th Apr 2013 00:58
This thread was started by a bot, and is continuing to waste your time; please bury the hatchet and save the environment by expending less electricity debating whether 0.999999999 is not the same number as 1; use the earths resources for something more useful please.

or perhaps accept that 0.99999 is actually zero; or perhaps 2, who cares about people who think 0.9999999999 is not one.

mr Handy
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Posted: 29th Apr 2013 01:05
Quote: "use the earths resources"

What resourses? Electricity? When electricity ends, will we find an alternative? I don't want all miners in electricity mines to loose their jobs!

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rolfy
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Posted: 29th Apr 2013 01:07 Edited at: 29th Apr 2013 01:10
Actually believe this thread was started not by a bot but by the ultimate Troll, if it gets this kind of reaction whenever its posted on any kind of discussion boards then he's sitting back and laughing his socks off.
Wouldn't be surprised if it was someone around here using a duplicate account, given the mentality of certain folks

Paradox to Paranoia...time for the torches and pitchforks methinks...gotta love it

I don't trip over...I do random gravity checks.
mr Handy
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Posted: 29th Apr 2013 01:15
Quote: "What you are more likely arguing is that "0.999..." should be redefined to mean a number different from "1"."

I did not mean it that way...

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Neuro Fuzzy
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Posted: 29th Apr 2013 02:29
Quote: "I can post this too: you are wrong."

SO YOU DECIDE TO RESPOND TO THE SHORTEST LEAST THOUGHT OUT POST AND IGNORE EVERY SINGLE ONE OF MY POINTS? I EVEN TYPED OUT A GIANT HUGE ESSAY AND SHOWED WHERE THE IDEA OF INFINITESIMALS CAN HAVE VALUE. ARGHARGHAHJAGHAGKHAJWH

But seriously, you should consider that you don't know as much as a mathematician does about fractions. I'd type more but at this point you've given me no reason to think it wouldn't be wasted effort. (because all my posts so far directed towards you have been wasted effort, apparently not even considered by you -.-)


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ionstream
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Posted: 29th Apr 2013 03:58
That's a pretty interesting proof Diggsey, and one I haven't seen before!

Mr Handy, you start the thread off on some anti-American rant by posting a bill from 1898, then you get on INH and Darkbasic dude's case when they call you out for it, then you insist on calling everyone a "fat troll" that provides evidence that 0.999 repeating is 1 - what would you call it? Calling it how I sees it hardly invalidates any of my proofs, unless you're going for the ad hominem argument. Wouldn't put it past you.

Quote: "You are the universe and anything you say is a fact."


If there is a problem with my proofs then show me, otherwise then yeah they're sorta facts. Proven facts, you might say. Not that I came up with them myself, they're around online and in books. Again.... look at the 80 million proofs about this that either myself or someone else has brought up.

Quote: "Either way, this is the longest most unproductive argument I've participated in on this forum.

Which broadly goes like:
mr Handy: blue is green
person A: blue is blue
person B: blue is blue
person C: blue is blue
mr Handy: no, blue is green
person D: blue is blue
person A: blue is blue
person C: blue is blue
mr Handy: no, blue is green"


This made my day.

mr Handy
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Posted: 29th Apr 2013 08:55
@ionstream
Quote: "When a person runs out of arguments, he starts a personal offence."

Conversation is over. Forever.

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Burger
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Posted: 29th Apr 2013 15:23
Quote: "Conversation is over. Forever."


Not. Quite.

Quote: "Which broadly goes like:
mr Handy: blue is green
person A: blue is blue
person B: blue is blue
person C: blue is blue
mr Handy: no, blue is green
person D: blue is blue
person A: blue is blue
person C: blue is blue
mr Handy: no, blue is green""


ahhahaha lol had to laugh at that, or maybe:

Quote: "Which broadly goes like:
mr Handy: blue is green
person A: blue is blue, here's proof
person B: blue is blue, here's proof
person C: blue is blue, here's proof
mr Handy: no, blue is green
person D: blue is blue, here's proof
person A: blue is blue, here's proof
person C: blue is blue, here's proof
mr Handy: no, blue is green""




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mr Handy
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Posted: 29th Apr 2013 15:30

Quote: "Which broadly goes like:
mr Handy: blue is red, here's proof
person A: blue is green, here's proof
person B: blah blah blah
person C: pwnt!
mr Handy: no, blue is green, here's proof
person A: green is blue, here's proof
person B: blah blah blah
person C: pwnt!"


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BiggAdd
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Posted: 29th Apr 2013 17:03
@mr Handy - If you want to be part of discussions on this forum I would suggest in future that you do so in a mature fashion.
From viewing your debates in other threads and this one, I'm disappointed by your passive aggressive nature, as it often leads to upsetting other members and derailing the thread with flames (whether it was meant intentionally or as a bit of harmless fun).

Cheers,
BiggAdd

mr Handy
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Posted: 29th Apr 2013 18:22 Edited at: 29th Apr 2013 18:23
@BiggAdd
I thought you'd come earlier. At least you have written exactly as I expected. Flight of ideas is not provided by the system, stereotypes and opinions are set in advance, demagogy in its infancy. In general, sadly there with you all. I mean the Geek Culture board.

Quote: "If you want to be part of discussions on this forum"

Not the GC anymore, but the other boards - yes.

Cheers, man.

edit: typo

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ionstream
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Posted: 29th Apr 2013 19:27
I think expansion of ideas are pretty well supported in this forum, they just have to be supported by stuff like, evidence, a reason to have the idea, any shred of a coherent thought process at all, things of that nature.

A demagogy in its infancy! That's classic. BiggAdd must be reeling that you figured out his scheme.

Insert Name Here
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Posted: 29th Apr 2013 19:37
Quote: "A demagogy in its infancy! That's classic. BiggAdd must be reeling that you figured out his scheme."


I always find it funny when people expect an internet forum, owned by a company, and 'policed' by volunteers, to be entirely democratic.

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BiggAdd
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Posted: 29th Apr 2013 19:38
@mr Handy
Grow up, otherwise you'll learn pretty quickly how little patience I have for people like you.

Norion
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Posted: 29th Apr 2013 20:56 Edited at: 29th Apr 2013 20:56


Nec Temere Nec Timide
Neuro Fuzzy
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Posted: 29th Apr 2013 23:16 Edited at: 29th Apr 2013 23:17
@mr handy, This had EVERY chance to turn into a productive interesting discussion -.-

Just to remind you, I'm angry because you ignored & didn't respond to my posts, which I did in fact put effort into. Even if you're arguing against an army of bigoted people who will never admit you're wrong, you don't actually have to start insulting them. Open conversation is a possibility!
---------------

Just for summary's sake, my real analysis take [ie, what I'd write if a math professor asked me to give a watertight proof]:
- The decimal number 0.(9), (denoting 0.99... repeating) represents the real number which is the infinite sum of {0.9,0.09,0.009,0.0009,...}.
- Infinite sums are defined as the limit of the sequence of partial sums.
- The sequence of partial sums is {0.9,0.99,0.999,...}
- The limit of this sequence is 1.
[
Proof that the limit of the sequence is 1: Denote L=1. The definition of a limit of a sequence A(n) is, "A(n)->L as n approaches infinity means that for any e there exists an N such that all n>N have |A(n)-L|<e". This states that A(n) gets arbitrarily close to L, for sufficiently large n.

Let e be arbitrary and let A(n) be the nth term of (0.9,0.99,...}, with A(1)=0.9. Clearly A(n)=1-10^(-n). If we choose any integer N with N>-log(e), we see that n>N has |A(n)-L|=|1-10^(-n)-1|=10^(-n)<10^(-N)<10^(-(-log(e)))=10^(log(e))=e, so that |A(n)-L|<e for sufficiently large n.
]
QED.
---------------



I have a feeling that if you understood that proof, you'd say, "Oh, well, that's the definition I meant", to which I'd say, I'd love to see your definition, but note that that's the definition that massive, massive fields of mathematics are based on.

I could also write a similar proof that there exists no largest number less than one. But one could say, "those properties you're using aren't properties of numbers I know of", but you have to realize that questions like these were really heavily thought out by Cauchy and Weierstrass and Bolzano and so many people, and these were the definitions they converged on, so their merit might not be easy to see.


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ionstream
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Posted: 30th Apr 2013 01:00
Very interesting Neuro, that proof really gets to the heart of it. I believe I need to brush up on my limits.

TheComet
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Posted: 30th Apr 2013 01:21
Neuro, I'm bookmarking your post for future arguments about 0.(9) = 1.

TheComet


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Neuro Fuzzy
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Posted: 30th Apr 2013 02:00
8D
Glad to be of use.

(Not that I would stop posting if I wasn't)

But yes! That's the proof/definition. For the most part I dislike specific limit proofs and they seem annoying and dense. Choosing a specific value (finding N) and then showing that the inequality is true... I don't think I've ever got any enjoyment out of that process xD


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Libervurto
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Posted: 30th Apr 2013 03:08
Quote: "Flight of ideas is not provided by the system, stereotypes and opinions are set in advance, demagogy in its infancy."

I agree. 0.999... = 3


rolfy
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Posted: 30th Apr 2013 05:13 Edited at: 30th Apr 2013 05:38
Neuro Fuzzy Thats the most elegant proof shown and I think you win this hands down. Its a pity that you weren't being listened to earlier but there were 'distractions'.


Sorry

I don't trip over...I do random gravity checks.
Dark Java Dude 64
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Posted: 30th Apr 2013 06:42
Ya, I honestly felt bad skimming over that essay of a post you wrote, especially knowing most were likely doing the same.

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easter bunny
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Posted: 30th Apr 2013 07:15 Edited at: 30th Apr 2013 07:16
this entire argument basically the same as this one:
if you take 1/2 + 1/4 + 1/8 + 1/16 + 1/32 + 1/64th ETC, will it eventually = 1?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1/2_%2B_1/4_%2B_1/8_%2B_1/16_%2B_%C2%B7_%C2%B7_%C2%B7
this page explains it very simply and concisely, unlike much of the repeating decimal arguments, mainly because it's so short

here's an extremely interesting one, because it's obviously not true, but it seems to be perfect maths:

Achilles and the tortoise
In a race, the quickest runner can never overtake the slowest, since the pursuer must first reach the point whence the pursued started, so that the slower must always hold a lead. – as recounted by Aristotle, Physics VI:9, 239b15

In the paradox of Achilles and the Tortoise, Achilles is in a footrace with the tortoise. Achilles allows the tortoise a head start of 100 metres, for example. If we suppose that each racer starts running at some constant speed (one very fast and one very slow), then after some finite time, Achilles will have run 100 metres, bringing him to the tortoise's starting point. During this time, the tortoise has run a much shorter distance, say, 10 metres. It will then take Achilles some further time to run that distance, by which time the tortoise will have advanced farther; and then more time still to reach this third point, while the tortoise moves ahead. Thus, whenever Achilles reaches somewhere the tortoise has been, he still has farther to go. Therefore, because there are an infinite number of points Achilles must reach where the tortoise has already been, he can never overtake the tortoise.

discuss, wait, no DON'T, we'll have another flame war P-

Libervurto
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Posted: 30th Apr 2013 10:41 Edited at: 30th Apr 2013 10:44

I don't like this paradox much, it artificially divides the process into arbitrary steps. All that's happening is that you are looking at shorter and shorter distances, not actually affecting the distance travelled. The only reason the process becomes infinite is that you've chosen an infinite series of distances to examine.

Maybe it's just the context that doesn't seem right to me, I'll try to write a different context without losing the paradox:

The Bloodhound is on its land-speed record attempt. It reaches a maximum speed of 1000 mph (which they think they can do!) before the parachutes are deployed. Out of respect for simplicity these parachutes slow the speed of the Bloodhound by half every five seconds. How long does it take for the Bloodhound come to a complete stop?


mr Handy
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Posted: 30th Apr 2013 14:36 Edited at: 30th Apr 2013 16:24
@NeuroFuzzy
Quote: "This had EVERY chance to turn into a productive interesting discussion"

I don't think so. Blue=blue, we could only try to get fake proof that blue=red.

My role here was a guy who can't believe that 0.(9)=1
My goal was to make out a strategy to confuse a math guy.
How can I reflect your heavy artillery? You should be proud, your post was the best here.

I confused some guys in the Tech College, but that's not it. No "brain explosion" and then "I got ya".

By the way, here is one of those fakes (I posted it earlier), it is enough to prank some people:

16-36=25-45
(4)^2-2*4*(9/2)=(5)^2-2*5*(9/2)
(4)^2-2*4*(9/2)+(9/2)^2=(5)^2-2*5*(9/2)+(9/2)^2 ... a^2-2*a*b+b^2=(a-b)^2
(4-9/2)^2=(5-9/2)^2
4-9/2=5-9/2
4=5... 2+2=5


EDIT: Also BiggAdd is a really nice guy with his patience; russian forums a too "democratic", where "you are retarded cucumber" is a polite argument. Bad experience is experince too.

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Indicium
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Posted: 30th Apr 2013 16:31
Wait - people actually understand fuzzy's proof? I can't make heads or tails.


They see me coding, they hating. http://indi-indicium.blogspot.co.uk/
Seppuku Arts
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Posted: 30th Apr 2013 18:59
Quote: " russian forums a too "democratic", where "you are retarded cucumber" is a polite argument"


To be fair to you, a lot of places on the internet are like that, you only have to view the comments section of YouTube for your brain to explode .

The thing I like about the TGC forums is that it's respectful the majority of the time and mods tend to stamp out disruptiveness, but generally reason first (or let members do so), warn second and ban if need be, meaning people at least have a chance. As a result I feel the forum is a lot more chilled that why. Prolly why I've been a member for so long XD.

mr Handy
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Posted: 30th Apr 2013 19:52 Edited at: 30th Apr 2013 21:52
Quote: "the comments section of YouTube"

Nah, that's overkill even for russian forums!

Russian forum mentality is different to TGC forum, so that's why
Quote: "I'm disappointed by your passive aggressive nature, as it often leads to upsetting other members and derailing the thread with flames (whether it was meant intentionally or as a bit of harmless fun)."

happens. It's just different.
Quote: "people at least have a chance"

As a minority here, I need to be more careful.

UPDATE: just saw this banner:

what means mental instability?!

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Neuro Fuzzy
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Posted: 1st May 2013 00:26
Forum relationships are built on trust, this is a slippery slope :o

@indicium,
first you need to understand how the definition is a good definition of a limit.
"A(n)->L as n approaches infinity means that for any e there exists an N such that all n>N have |A(n)-L|<e"

It's structured like this: "FOR ALL e>0, THERE EXISTS an N, such that FOR ALL n>N, the distance between A(n) and L is less than e." So to prove a statement of this form, you'd let e be an arbitrary number greater than zero, then pull an N out of thin air (this is the part where the work is), then let n be arbitrary with n>N, and THEN show that, for this N you chose, |A(n)-L|<e, which involves manipulating some inequalities.

Another way of phrasing the limit definition is, for any e, all but finitely many A(n) are within a distance e of L.


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Insert Name Here
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Posted: 1st May 2013 01:14
Quote: "
UPDATE: just saw this banner:

what means mental instability?!"


I made this banner. I don't know, probably anger or fear or something. It just fitted with the rhythm of the sentence.

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ionstream
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Posted: 1st May 2013 02:06
Is Mr Handy trying to pretend like he was playing a joke the whole time and secretly knew that 0.9 repeating is 1, or am I mistaken on that?

@Indicium, There's a good explanation of limits and limits of sequences on Wikipedia here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Limit_%28mathematics%29#Limit_of_a_sequence. The definition listed there says:

"For every real number e > 0, there exists a natural number N such that for all n > N, |a(n) − L| < ε."

So if you let L be 1 and you pick a number for e like 0.01, there is a particular element in our infinite sequence of { 0.9, 0.99, 0.999, ... } where the difference of every element after it and L is less than 0.01. For example:

A(1) = 0.9
A(2) = 0.99
A(3) = 0.999
A(4) = 0.9999

When e is 0.01:

1 - A(1) = 1 - 0.9 = 0.1, which is greater than e,
1 - A(2) = 1 - 0.99 = 0.01, which is equal to e,
1 - A(3) = 1 - 0.999 = 0.001, which is less than e
1 - A(4) = 1 - 0.9999 = 0.0001, which is also less than e.

So you can see that if you take any element in the sequence after A(2) and get its distance to L (by subtracting it by L and taking the absolute value), then it will be less than our e, 0.01. Therefore when e is 0.01, our N is 2.

The goal after that is to show that for any number greater than 0 for e, you can find an element in our sequence that , where the distance of every element after and L is less than e. This is a proof of convergence, which is fairly well explained here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Convergent_series. Feel free to correct me if I'm mistaken anywhere here.

mr Handy
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Posted: 1st May 2013 12:53
Quote: "Is Mr Handy trying to pretend like he was playing a joke the whole time and secretly knew that 0.9 repeating is 1, or am I mistaken on that?"

Concerned person would not respond "naturally".

Only one thing I real want to know: why DBP shows two different numbers, when they both*3 gives 1 in the end?
a as double float
a=1.0/3.0
print str$(1.0/3.0)
print a

0.333333342267
0.333333

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Libervurto
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Posted: 1st May 2013 19:55
Quote: "As a minority here, I need to be more careful."

Why would you say that? Why would you need to be more careful because you are Russian? Stop poking at the mods for a reaction.

The difficulty in learning is not acquiring new knowledge but relinquishing the old.
mr Handy
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Posted: 1st May 2013 20:15 Edited at: 1st May 2013 20:26
Quote: "Why would you need to be more careful"

You have read it wrong. A minority in mentality.
As I said before, our forums are too democratic and allow to "insult" each other just for fun. And it is fun, believe me

And please stop discussing my personality

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Seppuku Arts
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Posted: 1st May 2013 20:35
I think what Mr Handy means is that the forums he's used to have lot more anarchy, and attitudes are generally different. At least typically on Russian ones. Whereas here we're more of a tight ship, we respect respect. We like it to be a safe and comfortable environment. We are basically Switzerland.

mr Handy
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Posted: 1st May 2013 20:39
@Seppuku Arts
This.

Also I still would like to get comments on my two math questions above (those with numbers).

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Dark Java Dude 64
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Posted: 2nd May 2013 01:38
Quote: "And please stop discussing my personality"
Hard when you behave like you did... But okay.

http://www.google.com/
Neuro Fuzzy
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Posted: 2nd May 2013 03:37
Quote: "Only one thing I real want to know: why DBP shows two different numbers, when they both*3 gives 1 in the end?
"

probs just print and str$() behaving differently, in terms of the number of digits they print out.

And division by zero to the other one ;D

(guessing, didn't go through it :p)


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mr Handy
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Posted: 2nd May 2013 13:39
Okay, and what about 2+2=5?

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Libervurto
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Posted: 2nd May 2013 14:17
Quote: "You have read it wrong. A minority in mentality."

You were talking about Russian forums and then stated that you need to be careful on this forum because are a minority. I don't think the misreading is entirely my fault.

The difficulty in learning is not acquiring new knowledge but relinquishing the old.

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