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Geek Culture / Vlambeer victim of game "cloning"

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Green Gandalf
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Posted: 26th Apr 2013 13:55 Edited at: 26th Apr 2013 13:57
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It was a bit of a curate's egg to me.

Edit But on a happier note I've now spotted the yeti twice in Yeti Hunter . Still haven't caught it though.
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greenlig
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Posted: 26th Apr 2013 14:02
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@Jeku - I'm not sure how much of Luftrausers is cloned, but Ridiculous Fishing certainly was, so Vlambeer would understandably be worried about it happening again. When you are small, and your livelyhood depends on the traction you get with good games, having the rug pulled out from under you is a horrible thing. Then again, putting out flash prototypes opens you up to that. There's a difference between imitation and cloning, although it's a blurry line to be sure.

ZacDuff.com
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Libervurto
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Posted: 26th Apr 2013 14:20
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Quote: "I think imitation is a form of flattery. Since nothing was ripped off or stolen, there's no law that's broken."

The law is a pretty lousy moral compass. Shouldn't the law protect innovative game developers? There's a huge difference between adopting a mechanic and wholesale cloning a game. If we didn't allow developers to use and adapt mechanics from other games then we wouldn't have genres or many games at all, but surely there's a point at which it stops being inspiration and starts being plagiarism. Defining that point is another matter.


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Van B
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Posted: 26th Apr 2013 16:49
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Well it's kinda the way of things nowadays. The indie marketplace is attracting mindless clones because they appear to make money, and a big team of lowly paid coders will be able to churn this stuff out quickly.

As for being a proper indie game studio - well if you make games, sell games, then make that you job, surely that's enough to qualify. Besides the fact that Notch once said Vlambeer is saving the indie game scene... well that kinda makes the whole question kinda moot.

The whole point of indie development is that you do things your own way - and ignore other peoples expectations and ideals.

I got a fever, and the only prescription, is more memes.
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KeithC
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Posted: 26th Apr 2013 17:43
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Please stay on topic.

-Keith

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xplosys
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Posted: 26th Apr 2013 18:50
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I thought I had the whole cloning thing solved. I thought... If you never create anything, no one will copy it. Brilliant! As it turns out though, there are a lot of people not creating anything now, so my whole idea was copied anyway.

Unless someone clones your media or code, I don't think you can have any expectation of maintaining rights over a games concept or idea. It's just the nature of the business, and the reason why many titles are rushed to market.
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The Zoq2
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Posted: 26th Apr 2013 19:21
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Normaly I agree with you, but in the case of that flying game, it seems like they litteraly copied it, they took the artstyle and gameplay and changed the brown color to blue... Other than that, it looks like the same game.
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CoffeeGrunt
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Posted: 26th Apr 2013 21:26
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To be fair, there's an entire era of 2D platformers that seemed like reskins of each other.
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TheComet
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Posted: 26th Apr 2013 21:27
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^That's a valid point.

TheComet


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mr Handy
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Posted: 26th Apr 2013 22:22
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Happy Farm anyone?

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Green Gandalf
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Posted: 26th Apr 2013 22:53
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You've just justified the use of the word "practically" in this extract from Wikipedia:

Quote: "As of 2012, it had practically vanished."


Did you write that?
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Jeku
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Posted: 27th Apr 2013 05:15
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Quote: "but surely there's a point at which it stops being inspiration and starts being plagiarism. Defining that point is another matter."


Exactly. If there's a problem that can't be fixed by way of a black/white rule set, then it's a moot point. I don't mean to sound harsh because I met Rami and he is a really nice guy.

But think how many Tetris clones were released! How many games ripped off Breakout? How about Match-3 games? Bejeweled definitely wasn't the first match-3 game. Zuma definitely ripped off gameplay from earlier games like Puzzloop, and Popcap made a fortune and a name for itself based on its clone!


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Blobby 101
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Posted: 27th Apr 2013 11:55
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I think there's a slight difference between a tetris clone and a game that plays 100% identically and even looks almost exactly the same (the only difference being the colour of the background). And then actually releasing it BEFORE Vlambeer had the chance to finish theirs?
It's just flat out mean spirited, and I hope there is something they can do about it.

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Libervurto
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Posted: 27th Apr 2013 23:30
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@Jeku is right though, the best that can be done is to make people aware of what's happening and let them judge for themselves. Like I said, the law is a lousy moral arbiter.


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Jeku
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Posted: 28th Apr 2013 06:53
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Quote: "I think there's a slight difference between a tetris clone and a game that plays 100% identically and even looks almost exactly the same (the only difference being the colour of the background). And then actually releasing it BEFORE Vlambeer had the chance to finish theirs?"


We must be looking at different screenshots and gameplay videos. It doesn't look exactly the same with a different colour background. And you can't steal gameplay code. Last I checked Vlambeer's code wasn't stolen, so the cloners had to recreate the code themselves.

Also, Tetris clones pretty much look exactly the same as the original, with updated graphics. What's the difference here?


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mr Handy
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Posted: 28th Apr 2013 12:37
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Quote: "Also, Tetris clones pretty much look exactly the same as the original, with updated graphics. What's the difference here?"


The court says there is no difference See upper.

But I know a tetris on NES that uses triangles not squares! LOL.

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Libervurto
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Posted: 28th Apr 2013 15:23
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I wish there were a system to reward developers for innovative game design. If a developer spawns an entire genre they should be rewarded. I'm sure there must be industry awards that support innovation, and give cash prizes not just a trophy. Wouldn't it be great if we could support innovators while at the same time release their work for everyone to use and expand on!


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mr Handy
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Posted: 28th Apr 2013 15:28
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OBese87
http://www.interactive.org/

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Libervurto
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Posted: 28th Apr 2013 15:58 Edited at: 28th Apr 2013 16:03
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Quote: "Role-Playing/Massively Multiplayer Game of the Year

Mass Effect 3"

What? Why is RPG and MMO the same category? Mass Effect is not an MMO.

I'm quite disappointed looking at that list. The majority are sequels of established AAA franchises, and everything else is won by Journey or The Walking Dead. Really? Were there no other games that deserved credit?

Is this one of those things where only a handful of developers are eligible or something? No, there seems to be quite a lot of nominations from a range of developers. Odd that all the prizes went to very few games.


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tha_rami
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Posted: 30th Apr 2013 14:16 Edited at: 30th Apr 2013 14:18
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Please make games instead of patenting them.

I'm not getting back into the cloning argument. Long story short: Ninja Fishing was a clone morally, Skyfar used a bunch of our assets besides being a clone morally. In both cases, the similarities are so overwhelming that anyone (but game developers who disagree cloning is an issue) recognizes it as a clone.

Was fun running into you, by the way, Jeku. PAX Prime again this year?

Related for those who want to know what I'm up to nowadays:




You can read the full articles being Cloned at Birth and We built a booth here at www.polygon.com/human-angle

Business guy and developer at [url]www.vlambeer.com[/url] - bringing back arcade since 1956.
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Libervurto
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Posted: 30th Apr 2013 18:03 Edited at: 30th Apr 2013 18:06
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@rami - Those videos were really nice. I'm glad this whole fiasco hasn't been as damaging for you as I feared. Maybe people are more conscious of this sort of thing happening nowadays. I thought for a second that Cloned at Birth was the title of your next game. Now that would be funny!

I guess the problem with copyrighting game design is that there are many ways of producing the same game. It's not like building a car, there is only one design for that car, you can't design the same car in a different way because all cars have to work within the same reality with the same physics and chemistry. You cannot patent the concept of car spoilers but only a specific spoiler design. By the same token, you can copyright your version of Ridiculous Fishing but there is nothing to stop someone making the same thing by a different path. Kinda sucks.

Or have I gotten that totally wrong? Out of interest what did these "legal people" say about it? Did they give you any advice for the future?

The difficulty in learning is not acquiring new knowledge but relinquishing the old.
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Jeku
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Posted: 1st May 2013 03:40 Edited at: 1st May 2013 03:41
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Quote: "Was fun running into you, by the way, Jeku. PAX Prime again this year?"


Yah that was great last year. My friend and I are driving down there again this year for the full 4 days! We should definitely go out for beers this time!

We are working on our own game using Haxe, so eventually it would be cool to get some tips in person


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tha_rami
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Posted: 4th May 2013 22:28
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@OBese87 Nope, you're exactly right. The line is moral rather than legal. We're happy that the industry and community seem increasingly opposed to the practice and hope we've made a bit of a contribution there.

Business guy and developer at [url]www.vlambeer.com[/url] - bringing back arcade since 1956.
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