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Geek Culture / Optical Illusions

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Neophyte
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Posted: 9th Dec 2003 08:37
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@Exeat

"I swear you could've just said the text wasn't the same colour."

I think I did.

Sorry I caused any confusion. Lets just drop this now. the_winch posted one that had the text fixed and I acknowledged that it worked in a previous post at the top of this page some where. As far as I'm concerned this should have been a non-issue 24 posts ago.
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Pincho Paxton
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Posted: 9th Dec 2003 10:48
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You were talking about the text? ???

What's the text got to do with it?

There could be a difference in the Anti Alias, but really, I can't see how anyone would be concentrating on the text. The letter B probably uses more pixels than the letter A, and that would make the B square a slightly different overall light reading to A. But the optical illusion does say the word 'Square' which refers to the actual square itself, not the letter.

Pincho.
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Neophyte
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Posted: 9th Dec 2003 11:17
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@Pincho

"You were talking about the text? ???"

::sigh::

Quote: "
Except in this case the A and B really are two different colors.
"


"What's the text got to do with it?"

I've already explained this what must be a million times. It is part of the square. All other variations on this puzzle include the text or something other than the squares(IE the ChessBase example above).

"The letter B probably uses more pixels than the letter A, and that would make the B square a slightly different overall light reading to A."

Not if they are the same color. Which they are suppose to be if it weren't for the JPEG screwing it up.

Look at the image at the top of this thread. The text there looks a different color but it is infact identical.

"But the optical illusion does say the word 'Square' which refers to the actual square itself, not the letter."

The letter is part of the square! Is not above it. It is not below it. It is in it! It is part of the square and part of the illusion. ARGGGHHH!!!
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las6
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Posted: 9th Dec 2003 11:31
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no it isn't, if it's not meant to be so. It could be the same, and the illusion would work. But it's not. so quit whining because you're wrong.
without the text, it would be quite impossible to know what tiles we should compare anyways...

Quote: "How am I suppose to notice them? What magical way am I suppose to decifier what is a compression artifact and what is an original pixel?"


if you zoom even a bit, it should be VERY clear. the solid base color is the same, but areas where there are differently colored pixels next to each other, (like tile edge) the jpeg compression algorithm tries to fool the eye using less colors. Looks fine in normal view, but it's clearly visible when you zoom in. And separating those artifacts from the original color isn't hard at all.

Keyboard not detected. Press F1 to continue.
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Dave J
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Posted: 9th Dec 2003 11:51
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I agree with Las6, notice in the Chess example the horse and tiles are the same colour. However, in the original example they are not, hence why the text is not part of the 'illusion'. Furthermore, if the text were to be the same colour, that must be that it would have to be the grey colour making the text impossible to read in the 'A' square.


"Computers are useless they can only give you answers."
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Neophyte
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Posted: 9th Dec 2003 12:06
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@las6

"no it isn't, if it's not meant to be so."

What isn't? What part of my post are you responding to?

"It could be the same, and the illusion would work. "

What could be the same? Again, you aren't being clear here.

"But it's not. so quit whining because you're wrong."

I think the only whining here is from you. Did you even bother to read the rest of this thread? I said the text was the same and that the illusion was fine like 30 posts ago when the_winch posted that modified one that highlighted the illusion happening on the text. Why do you even care? This is a non-issue. It is over with. I don't care at all about the illusion anymore. Stop being a prick about it.

"without the text, it would be quite impossible to know what tiles we should compare anyways..."

No it wouldn't. A red outline could be used to highlight the two, arrows could point to them, even text based description would suffice like:

Look at the Light Square and in the cylinder's shadow and the Dark Square Outside of it. They are the same color.

"if you zoom even a bit, it should be VERY clear. the solid base color is the same, but areas where there are differently colored pixels next to each other, (like tile edge)"

Again, I'll ask how is one suppose to tell that those pixels are due to JPEG compression artifacts and not the paint programs software? Any number of tools could have caused those pixels.

"the jpeg compression algorithm tries to fool the eye using less colors. "

Most lossy compression algorithms do.

"Looks fine in normal view, but it's clearly visible when you zoom in. And separating those artifacts from the original color isn't hard at all."

But determining that those are compression artifacts or sloppy work is another matter entirely. Bad ray-tracing software can just as easily make those pixels. Besides, the entire text was effected on both tiles. I can't just ignore an integral part of the illusion.

But, back to my main point. The text is part of the square and is part of the illusion. Someone screwed up and used a JPEG which ruined the text. I pointed this out. We debated. the_winch understood what I meant and posted a fixed one that used the two B tiles. One in its original place, the other in place of the blurry A. The B on top looked darker than the B on bottom even though they were the same color. The illusion was what it was suppose to be. I said as much in a post at the top of this page and I thought the issue was over.

Unfortunatly, certain posters decided to bring the issue up again(::shakes fist menacingly at Divide By Zero: and this whole fiasco started again. Why, I don't know.

I've seen these before and the text has always been a part of the illusion(or at least something other than the squares, ie the ChessBase example posted above). If nobody wants to agree with me about this fine. I've lost my patience trying to explain my point of view and if someone doesn't agree with me by now there is no point continuing, because there is no way they'll agree with me at this point.
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Neophyte
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Posted: 9th Dec 2003 12:10
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@Exeat

"notice in the Chess example the horse and tiles are the same colour. However, in the original example they are not,"

Yes I see that.

"hence why the text is not part of the 'illusion'."

Is this because of the compression artifacts or intent? I'd say compression artifacts because there is always something other than the squares that are a part of the illusion(once again, the chessbase example). But thats just me.

"Furthermore, if the text were to be the same colour, that must be that it would have to be the grey colour making the text impossible to read in the 'A' square."

Look at the example at the top of the page. Those two Bs are the same color but they are quite legiable.
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Dave J
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Posted: 9th Dec 2003 12:46
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What two B's?


"Computers are useless they can only give you answers."
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Neophyte
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Posted: 9th Dec 2003 12:48
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@Exeat

"What two B's?"

I'm refering to the image posted at the top of page 3 by the winch.
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Dave J
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Posted: 9th Dec 2003 12:58
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Oh sorry, I have my options set to 100 posts per page so I couldn't find it.

With that example the illusion doesn't work nearly as well as the original with the tiles.


"Computers are useless they can only give you answers."
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Neophyte
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Posted: 9th Dec 2003 13:03 Edited at: 9th Dec 2003 13:05
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@Exeat

"Oh sorry, I have my options set to 100 posts per page so I couldn't find it."

I see. So this is where the confusion is arising from. I have mine set to 40. I'll keep that in mind next time I reference something in a thread.

"With that example the illusion doesn't work nearly as well as the original with the tiles."

Why not? If anything it works even better because the contrast between the two is more sharp making them look even more different even though in reality they are the same.

[edit]I'm going to hit the sack now so it will be a while before I can respond to anyone's posts.
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Dave J
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Posted: 9th Dec 2003 13:22
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But the contrast isn't sharper! The contrast between a white A on grey tile is much sharper then the contrast of a grey A on a grey tile!!!


"Computers are useless they can only give you answers."
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Sly D
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Posted: 9th Dec 2003 15:27
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Quote: "I got 35, can I have a cookie now"


I ran out of cookies but you can have one big WHITE dot!

A cute looking koala with a WHAT!? THEY can't use Kalashnikovs, can they?
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Ian T
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Posted: 9th Dec 2003 18:20
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It is not about the bloody text, all the sites say it isn't, it's about the tiles, jeez!

This illusion I made demonstrates the same principal, less effectively (I'm no expert at this). All the brown squares are the same color.



--Mouse: Famous (Avatarless) Fighting Furball

A very nice %it, indeed.
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Chris K
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Posted: 9th Dec 2003 21:12 Edited at: 9th Dec 2003 21:12
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Neophyte :

- Open the picture in paint.
- Grab the main colour from either SQUARE A or SQUARE B.
- Using this colour, paint over all of both squares (paint over the letters)
- The squares do not look the same colour.

Happy?


...and like that; he's gone...
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Scraggle
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Posted: 9th Dec 2003 21:33 Edited at: 9th Dec 2003 21:40
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Neophyte :

Why can't you just accept that you are wrong!!!

GOD exists and his name is Jonny Wilkinson

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Easily Confused
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Posted: 9th Dec 2003 22:06
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Oh well, I thought the link I provided would have been enough to settle the argument.

Surely this thread is not heading towards being a flamebait just because of one illusion, is it?

Why not post more illusions instead, hmmm?

Programming anything is an art, and you can't rush art.
Unless your name is Bob Ross, then you can do it in thirty minutes.
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Chris K
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Posted: 9th Dec 2003 23:07
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How dare you refer to it like that.

That "one illusion" is a god among regular illusions.


...and like that; he's gone...
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Pincho Paxton
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Posted: 9th Dec 2003 23:16
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It's an interesting thread!
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HZence
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Posted: 9th Dec 2003 23:41
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Quote: "Why can't you just accept that you are wrong!!!"


I think he's known he's wrong for quite a bit now and is just trying to be a pain in the arse for you guys. Frankly I'm proud of him, it seems to be working, LOL

Team EOD :: Programmer/Storyboard Assistant
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Chris K
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Posted: 9th Dec 2003 23:43
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Quote: "It's an interesting thread! "


And its my first red one.

Yay! I rule.


...and like that; he's gone...
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Sly D
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Posted: 9th Dec 2003 23:44
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Anyways, back on topic:

How many faces do you see?



Is the following object physically possible?


A cute looking koala with a WHAT!? THEY can't use Kalashnikovs, can they?
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HZence
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Posted: 9th Dec 2003 23:46
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I see two faces.

As far as the cube...well make a 3D model of it and then make a program where it's rotating. Then we'll see how possible it is...lol.

Team EOD :: Programmer/Storyboard Assistant
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Chris K
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Posted: 9th Dec 2003 23:49
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I never really liked those ones.
They're pretty clever though, I think it works because all lines in isometric are at the same angles so you can just line them up with each other in weird ways.


...and like that; he's gone...
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Ian T
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Posted: 9th Dec 2003 23:51
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1- I see two faces.

2- No, it's not, Escher loved that kind of thing (may have invented the cube actually).

--Mouse: Famous (Avatarless) Fighting Furball

A very nice %it, indeed.
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Sly D
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Posted: 9th Dec 2003 23:52
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The third face is not so obvious...

A cute looking koala with a WHAT!? THEY can't use Kalashnikovs, can they?
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HZence
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Posted: 9th Dec 2003 23:53
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Oh, I just saw the third face hehe...

Team EOD :: Programmer/Storyboard Assistant
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Pincho Paxton
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Posted: 10th Dec 2003 00:09
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How do you invent a cube? Ever seen pyrite?



There are lots of cubes in nature.

Pincho.
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Ian T
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Posted: 10th Dec 2003 00:14
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There's a lot of everything in nature. I wouldn't be surprised if some protiens had cube structures...

--Mouse: Famous (Avatarless) Fighting Furball

A very nice %it, indeed.
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Pincho Paxton
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Posted: 10th Dec 2003 00:27
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Quote: "Escher loved that kind of thing (may have invented the cube actually).
"


Then I must have misunderstood your quote! You must have meant the funny shape in the picture.
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Ian T
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Posted: 10th Dec 2003 02:35
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I meant the whatchamacalit cube ... no, Escher was a fairly modern artist

--Mouse: Famous (Avatarless) Fighting Furball

A very nice %it, indeed.
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Dave J
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Posted: 10th Dec 2003 02:42
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Quote: "How many faces do you see?"


3 - The Young Women, Old Women, and (Scottish?) Guy. That's a variation of the image with just the Young and Old women. Never seen that one with 3 before.


"Computers are useless they can only give you answers."
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Pincho Paxton
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Posted: 10th Dec 2003 02:48
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It's like the 6th Sense! 3 yeah! I see 3 people! I watched 12 monkeys the other day and Bruce Willis said "I see dead people" in that film. He must have a computer generated script writer! lol!

Pincho.
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Ian T
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Posted: 10th Dec 2003 02:53
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'3 - The Young Women, Old Women, and (Scottish?) Guy. That's a variation of the image with just the Young and Old women. Never seen that one with 3 before.'

Uhhh, I only see the Scottish guy

--Mouse: Famous (Avatarless) Fighting Furball

A very nice %it, indeed.
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Neophyte
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Posted: 10th Dec 2003 03:59
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@Exeat

"But the contrast isn't sharper! The contrast between a white A on grey tile is much sharper then the contrast of a grey A on a grey tile!!!"

???

[img]
http://www.posergallery.com/wip/20031204-CK154622.jpg[/img]


@Mouse

"It is not about the bloody text, all the sites say it isn't, it's about the tiles, jeez!"

What sites? I've been over this a million times. I consider the text to be a part of the illusion. All the other variations on this theme had something other than the tiles that were a part of the illusion. All I've been saying is that the text was messed up, and therefore part of the illusion. the_winch posted a fixed .png one that included the illusion of the text being a different color. I SAID THAT IT WORKED NOW. Case closed. End of Story. The illusion was fixed. Why must you drag this on?

"This illusion I made demonstrates the same principal, less effectively (I'm no expert at this). All the brown squares are the same color."

Yes they are the same color.

@Chris Knott

"Neophyte :

- Open the picture in paint.
- Grab the main colour from either SQUARE A or SQUARE B.
- Using this colour, paint over all of both squares (paint over the letters)
- The squares do not look the same colour.

Happy?"

I'm fully aware that the color of both tiles is the same. Hell, I've been over it so many times that I have it memorized. But, that is not what I've been talking about. I've been talking about the text being off color when it was suppose to be the same? the_winch posted a fixed one that of also linked to in this post. The text looks different even though it is the same. The illusion was fixed. I said as much in a previous post and subsequnent posts several times.

@Scraggle

"Neophyte :

Why can't you just accept that you are wrong!!!"

BECAUSE I AM RIGHT!!!

@Easily Confused

"Oh well, I thought the link I provided would have been enough to settle the argument."

As did I. But even though I've referred to it several times through the argument it seems to have no effect. ::sigh::

"Surely this thread is not heading towards being a flamebait just because of one illusion, is it?"

Ironically, I thought that heartbone's post about the 9/11 "hoax" would have illicted more response. It appears that I was wrong.

@HZence

"I think he's known he's wrong for quite a bit now and is just trying to be a pain in the arse for you guys."

Actually, I really do believe that I am right.

" Frankly I'm proud of him, it seems to be working, LOL"

Glad to hear someone is on my side(sort of).

@Cyber_Freak

Thank you for trying to bring this back on to topic. It is greatly appreciated.

"How many faces do you see?"

3

"Is the following object physically possible?"

Yeah, actually I think that I saw one of these in real life before. It was by some magician guy. Speciallized in optical illusions like these. He built one in his front yard or something. You had to look at it from a certain angle for it to work, but once you did it was pretty cool.

@Everyone

Since I haven't posted any illusions yet I'd thought I'd give it a try.

Make sure you are relaxed. Keep your eyes on the lighter areas where the black lines intersect. You should probably notice circles coming from the center of the design.



This illusion is similar to the young girl - old woman illusion. How many animals do you see?



Are these two line the same size?



This should be a little familar. Count the number of Ts.



This one really does a number on your eyes.



Schroder Stairs-In this illustration, the stairs should turn upside down during a steady gaze. The wall with the floating glass sphere will shift from the foreground to the background. Of course, if you originally saw the background as the foreground, you will notice a change from the background to the foreground.



The Zoeller Illusion-Are these lines parrell?



I think that this should be enough for now.
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HZence
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Posted: 10th Dec 2003 04:16
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dude, that stairs one is so wierd, i saw it, but then i moved the mouse and suddenly it'd be back to normal! lol!

got all of them, though.

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Dave J
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Posted: 10th Dec 2003 04:18
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The "A Bird In The The Bush" illusion is actually supposed to work in that you show someone the image then take it away and ask them to write the sentance. Most people don't recognise the second 'The' and write "A Bird In The Bush", but of course, that's incorrect.


"Computers are useless they can only give you answers."
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Kharnor
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Posted: 10th Dec 2003 04:30 Edited at: 10th Dec 2003 04:32
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I know you all want to drop the subject of the text-on-squares thingy, but i just have to add my two pesos.

The whole point of the illusion is that one square looks light, and the other looks dark. Logically, if you want something to stand out on a dark surface you use a light color, and vice versa. The letters are different colors simply to help the illusion along by fooling the viewer into thinking that a dark letter has been used because the square is light.

Anyway, back to the task at hand:

"Count the number of Ts"
There's no Ts in "A bird in bush". Or maybe, just maybe, there's some more words there that my brain just can't process?

"Are these two line the same size?"
Which two lines? I see eighteen. They are not all the same size.

"Are these lines parrell?"
Again, which lines? Some may be parallel, but most of them are at right angles or 45-degree angles to each other.

Always cool, Farmboy Kharnor was seen walking around with a long string of toilet paper stuck to his foot.
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Dave J
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Posted: 10th Dec 2003 04:39
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Quote: "Logically, if you want something to stand out on a dark surface you use a light color, and vice versa. The letters are different colors simply to help the illusion along by fooling the viewer into thinking that a dark letter has been used because the square is light."


Yeah, that's exactly what I meant when I said the text made it have a higher contrast.


"Computers are useless they can only give you answers."
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Kharnor
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Posted: 10th Dec 2003 04:41
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Hey look! I have no signature!

|
|
V

OF OF OF OF OF OF OF OF OF OF OF OF OF OF OF OF OF OF OF OF
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Neophyte
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Posted: 10th Dec 2003 06:03
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@HZence

"dude, that stairs one is so wierd, i saw it, but then i moved the mouse and suddenly it'd be back to normal! lol!"

Yeah, they did that to me too.

@Exeat

"The "A Bird In The The Bush" illusion is actually supposed to work in that you show someone the image then take it away and ask them to write the sentance. Most people don't recognise the second 'The' and write "A Bird In The Bush", but of course, that's incorrect."

Yeah, your right. That is how it should work but I couldn't figuare out how to do that on-line at the time so I thought maybe it would work like the F one. Guess, I was being too optimistic.

@Kharnor

"I know you all want to drop the subject of the text-on-squares thingy, but i just have to add my two pesos."

Fire away. Everyone else has.

"The whole point of the illusion is that one square looks light, and the other looks dark."

Yes, I know that. Its just that there is usually something more than just the squares that is part of the illusion. In this case, I consider the text to be a part of the illusion. Guess, not too many people agree with that though.

"Logically, if you want something to stand out on a dark surface you use a light color, and vice versa."

Agreed.

"The letters are different colors simply to help the illusion along by fooling the viewer into thinking that a dark letter has been used because the square is light."

This is where I disagree with you. The letters can still be the same color and the illusion would work. Take a look at this fixed one:



The B on top looks much darker than the B on bottom but in reality they are the same color. Notice how they are both quite legiable and distinct from the squares they reside on. This is what the illusion should have been like if the JPEG hadn't screwed it up and that is what I was originally pointing out.
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Neophyte
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Posted: 10th Dec 2003 06:06
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@Kharnor

"There's no Ts in "A bird in bush". Or maybe, just maybe, there's some more words there that my brain just can't process?"



"Which two lines? I see eighteen. They are not all the same size."

I should have been more specific. I meant the vertical lines in both pictures. Or, alternatively, the diagonal lines in both pictures.

"Again, which lines? Some may be parallel, but most of them are at right angles or 45-degree angles to each other."

The thick yellow lines that are traveling diagonally. Not their little lines that are coming out of their sides.
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Dave J
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Posted: 10th Dec 2003 06:14
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Quote: "This is what the illusion should have been like if the JPEG hadn't screwed it up and that is what I was originally pointing out."


The JPEG didn't screw that up though. The text was always that colour, the JPEG didn't affect it's overall colour at all.

We're making the point that although we agree that it CAN work where the text is the same colour, it's more effective when they're inverted colours for reasons Kharnor said above.


"Computers are useless they can only give you answers."
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Neophyte
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Posted: 10th Dec 2003 06:42
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@Exeat

"The JPEG didn't screw that up though. "

How do you know this?

"The text was always that colour, the JPEG didn't affect it's overall colour at all."

No, the JPEG really did affect its color. The more that I look at it the more that I come to the conclusion that the text is just to small to not be modified by the JPEG.

"We're making the point that although we agree that it CAN work where the text is the same colour, it's more effective when they're inverted colours for reasons Kharnor said above."

Then I'm afraid we are just going to have to agree to disagree, because I think that it works better the other way. Since we are both stating opinions and not facts, there really is no point in arguing this any further. Opinions just can't be proved, or at least not satisfactorly to either party if they are strongly held. Lets just drop this and be done with it.
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Dave J
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Posted: 10th Dec 2003 08:00
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Quote: ""The JPEG didn't screw that up though. "

How do you know this?

"The text was always that colour, the JPEG didn't affect it's overall colour at all."

No, the JPEG really did affect its color. The more that I look at it the more that I come to the conclusion that the text is just to small to not be modified by the JPEG."


Okay, let's do a test then. Take the PNG The_Winch posted and then save it as a JPEG. I guarantee it won't change the 'B' up the top to a white colour. I guarantee it.


"Computers are useless they can only give you answers."
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CattleRustler
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Posted: 10th Dec 2003 08:04
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can anyone say "Rods and Cones" ?
The two colors are the same, the shades-of-gray thing is what screws us all up (as humans) as our brains can't process the contrast differences simultaneously, plus our brains are geared for color not grays - we are predators. Just have faith in the fact that we are so smart that our eyes/brains become stupid with sh*t like this. My cats are laughing at all of you - in little to no light a cat can see a scenery change of 1/16th of an inch at 100 yards! not to mention their hearing, and believe it or not, cats have a greater sense of smell then almost all canines. Then there is the whole jungle thing, where we all know that felines rule!

<damned hyeinna(sp) scavenger mutt - get you gone!>

-RUST-

VB.NET makes me all goose-pimply!
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Posted: 10th Dec 2003 08:32
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@Exeat

Quote: "No, the JPEG really did affect its color. The more that I look at it the more that I come to the conclusion that the text is just to small to not be modified by the JPEG."
"


"Okay, let's do a test then. Take the PNG The_Winch posted and then save it as a JPEG. I guarantee it won't change the 'B' up the top to a white colour. I guarantee it."

So are you're agreeing with me that the JPEG modified its color, but are saying that it couldn't have modified it that far apart?

Since the .PNG the_winch posted is just the modified version of the already fixed JPEG doing that would be pointless, because A) I would have to know the original pixel values of the entire image and B) I would have to know at what compression setting the JPEG was set to. Neither of which I know, but allow me to elaborate.

JPEG is lossy compression, meaning that the original values are lost. It also determines when a pixel gets modified and when it doesn't based on the values of the pixels surronding it and what compression setting is used. Since the B was originally in the bottom square it was modified to account for the surronding color of the nearest tiles and the shadow from the cylinder while A took into account different values(it not being in the shadow and being next to a giant block of pure white really contributed this). Also, lets not forget that the rest of the image was modified as well, including the squares that A and B resided on(which will be of coarse be taken into account by the JPEG compression routine once again).

To summarize, I don't have the original values of the image pre-JPEG so I can't draw the same effect it had on the text. Modifing any of the values in a major way(which is what the JPEG compression did to it the first time around) will change the out come of the compression routine. It is a non-reproducable phenomenon if one doesn't have the original values. Its like trying to solve the equation X - Y = 4 for X. It can't be done.
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Posted: 10th Dec 2003 08:34
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@CattleRustler

Interesting tidbits about cats.

I never knew that cats had a superior sense of smell than dogs.
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CattleRustler
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Posted: 10th Dec 2003 09:09
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@neophyte

not all dogs but most of them.

-RUST-

VB.NET makes me all goose-pimply!
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TKF15H
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Posted: 10th Dec 2003 10:42
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And pigs have a greater sense of smell that either. I still prefer having a dog.

Morfy's Law - Enythink thet ken go rong willll.
Cole's Law - Thinly sliced cabbage.
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