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Geek Culture / [LOCKED] Stop the coup

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David T
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Posted: 29th Oct 2004 03:57
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I can't believe the US stand on gay marriage - I think Bush even condemned it? IMO people should be able to do what they want.

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Ian T
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Posted: 29th Oct 2004 03:59 Edited at: 29th Oct 2004 04:01
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Quote: " I can't believe the US stand on gay marriage"


Support for it borders on ~40%. I'm afraid that's a rather gross generalization.

Furthermore, you might want to do a little more research into why the 60% think that. It doesn't make them all mindless or selfish.

Edit- By the way, yes, Bush has said he thinks it's wrong. Personally, while I disagree, I think he's got guts to say what he believes, instead of avoiding the issue like Kerry. He disagrees with it, but whenever he has the opportunity, instead of saying what he thinks he says what other people think about it. Take the incident where he used Cheney's daughter and the gay community as a weapon against Bush in the 'debate'.


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David T
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Posted: 29th Oct 2004 04:05
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Well, whatever the 60% think my personal feelings are people can do what they want.

On a differnet note I found this on BBC, it's about how US expats find the election coverage in the UK

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/magazine/3956061.stm

Quote: "'Definite slant'

Whatever their differences, the Republican and Democrat campaign teams are agreed on one thing - the British media.

"The press is definitely more pro-Kerry than pro-Bush," says Sharon Manitta of Democrats Abroad UK.

"We get to see more news stories that have a definite slant than the right wing, sadly, mainstream media in America."

It's not just that President Bush is frequently portrayed as a figure of fun that is important to the two camps, but that they also see the UK media as being more likely to be critical of the Iraq War. "


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bitJericho
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Posted: 29th Oct 2004 04:14
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@Pricey...

Exactly why should there be any rights to be given to an unborn child? I'm not for killing a fetus that's developed enough to be able to think and feel.. But I am not against abortion when it comes to a life that hasn't started to live yet.. why bring a baby into this world if the parents don't want him? Ye in a perfect world they would give him up for adoption.. but in this world that is not always the case..

And let's not get into stem cell research and those benefits..

Bahh.. I think you said that just to piss me off..

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bitJericho
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Posted: 29th Oct 2004 04:16 Edited at: 29th Oct 2004 04:17
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Quote: "Furthermore, you might want to do a little more research into why the 60% think that. It doesn't make them all mindless or selfish."


Gee, coincidence that bush outright says he's against it?

And yes, it does make them mindless and selfish. Who are they to tell ME who I can love?

[sorry for the double post]

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Ian T
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Posted: 29th Oct 2004 04:17
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Quote: "

Exactly why should there be any rights to be given to an unborn child? I'm not for killing a fetus that's developed enough to be able to think and feel.. But I am not against abortion when it comes to a life that hasn't started to live yet.. why bring a baby into this world if the parents don't want him? Ye in a perfect world they would give him up for adoption.. but in this world that is not always the case.."


From the first instant it is concieved, it qualifies as life by every standard of biology. From the first day a child is concieved it has a body and a mind. Who are we to say it doesn't have a soul? Just because it can't feel pain or understand danger and death?


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Ian T
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Posted: 29th Oct 2004 04:18 Edited at: 29th Oct 2004 04:19
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Quote: "And yes, it does make them mindless and selfish. Who are they to tell ME who I can love?"


You don't understand the Christian stance on the issue. Look at it their way-- who are you to tell them their God is wrong?


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bitJericho
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Posted: 29th Oct 2004 04:22 Edited at: 29th Oct 2004 04:28
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Who is the gov't to tell me that my personal beliefs are wrong.. because of religious reasons? This is not supposed to be a christian government.

So how many bugs have you killed mouse? How many life forms have you ever killed in your past. What makes other life so much different than a child who will live it's life in a living hell?

I don't believe it's right to kill a child for *personal and selfish* reasons. But if that childs going to live in an earthly hell, then why would you want to bring him into this world in the first place?

Just because abortion would be outlawed.. that does not mean every person who doesn't want a baby, or can't take care of a baby will give it up for adoption. This is a cruel world and I'm sad to say it

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Ian T
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Posted: 29th Oct 2004 04:27 Edited at: 29th Oct 2004 04:28
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Quote: " Who is the gov't to tell me that my personal beliefs are wrong.. because of religious reasons? This is not a supposed christian government."


I completely support seperation of church and state, but since when was this about the government? I'm talking about individuals.

Quote: "So how many bugs have you killed mouse? How many life forms have you ever killed in your past. What makes other life so much different than a child who will live it's life in a living hell?"


Fetuses are not bugs. They are human beings. Just because they have not yet become the greatest they will be, just because we cannot see them or recognize in full their humanity, does not make them any less human. It is wrong, very wrong to put limitations on what makes a human being. It is unconditional.

Quote: "I don't believe it's right to kill a child for *personal and selfish* reasons. But if that childs going to live in an earthly hell, then why would you want to bring him into this world in the first place?"


That's a good question, and that's why it's so important that birth control and ECPs are properly advocated and used. But once the child exists, that argument no longer applies.

Let's take a hypothetical situation: A young mother and a five-year-old are living a very bad life on low wages she gets from two full time jobs. She hardly ever gets to see him and can barely pay for the daycare.

Does killing him fix the situation?

No, it doesn't... now tell me, what's the big difference between a baby one day from birth and a newborn? What is it that makes it not a human being when it's inside the womb?


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JoshK
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Posted: 29th Oct 2004 04:33 Edited at: 29th Oct 2004 04:34
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Abortion, John Kerry, and religion are irrelevant. This is about a revolutionary power seizing control. Just watch the next few days. These guys will stop at nothing to transform our country into a dictatorship.

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bitJericho
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Posted: 29th Oct 2004 04:35
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It makes it not a human being by the fact that it has no recognition, no brain, no heart.. For the first few weeks it's just a parasite attached to a host.. (No I'm not calling a baby a parasite.. I mean it functions in a similar manner)

And no I do not mean to compare a baby to a bug by virtue of importance. I am human I want the human race to continue.. It's evolution. But why is an ant in every respect less worth than a human being?

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Kentaree
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Posted: 29th Oct 2004 04:41
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Quote: "No, it doesn't... now tell me, what's the big difference between a baby one day from birth and a newborn? What is it that makes it not a human being when it's inside the womb?"


Scientifically speaking, when there's no brain activity in a person, he's clinically dead. Wouldn't the same be true for a baby? I think jerico has a point, I know people who've had children when they didn't want to, but couldn't do anything about it. These people have had both their, and their child's lives ruined, all because of a religious thing, which science contradicts. I believe in science over religion.

Also, I must say, who are you to say whether a bug is more or less than I human? We are all animals of some sort, so I don't think we have to right to judge others like this. That said, I wouldn't go around saying animals are more important than humans eithers

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Kentaree
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Posted: 29th Oct 2004 04:43
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Quote: "Support for it borders on ~40%."


Quote: "Furthermore, you might want to do a little more research into why the 60% think that."


Once again, its people's opinions. What they think mighn't apply to my viewpoint. Also, might I add that these numbers would add up to around 105%-110%. And no, not because of bad math on my part, but because there's always going to be people who have "no opinion".

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David T
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Posted: 29th Oct 2004 04:47
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Quote: "(No I'm not calling a baby a parasite.. I mean it functions in a similar manner)"


Biologically, a baby is a parasite. Miscarriages can occur when the right hormone isn't produced in enough quantities by the placenta, and so the mother attacks the fetus.

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bitJericho
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Posted: 29th Oct 2004 04:49
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Quote: "I completely support seperation of church and state, but since when was this about the government? I'm talking about individuals"


i could care less what individuals think, until it starts to effect me and what I want to do, that's why I'm referring to the government, who does have an effect on my life.

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Rob K
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Posted: 29th Oct 2004 04:50 Edited at: 29th Oct 2004 04:51
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Quote: "From the first instant it is concieved, it qualifies as life by every standard of biology"


Does it? That is a question with a far from clear cut answer. For example, according to the Chuch of England, a human is not alive until it has developed certain body organs to a certain stage.

Quote: "I completely support seperation of church and state, but since when was this about the government? I'm talking about individuals."


Individuals with political influence who would impose their morals on other members of society?

On that note I'd like to say that George Bush isn't a Christian, so it does seem funny that he places such emphasis on faith.


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JoshK
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Posted: 29th Oct 2004 04:53
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Oh, and don't try to out-offend me over 9-11, when you support a politician who used footage of a flag-draped coffin in his political commercial.

I didn't say Bush DID let it happen. That's another discussion. I said that if he said that he did, you would twist your morals so that they could still support him, rather than relying on any real value system, other than god vs. the liberal devil.

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David T
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Posted: 29th Oct 2004 04:54
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Quote: "On that note I'd like to say that George Bush isn't a Christian"


I thought he was a devout Christian? I seem to remember seeing something on tv (as you do) about that and how WHite House workers who don't go to bible class are frowned upon.

Odd, I know.

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Jimmy
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Posted: 29th Oct 2004 04:55
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Regarding gay marriage, it turns out Bush is for civil unions, so stop whining you stupid homo babies.

Quote: "But why is an ant in every respect less worth than a human being?"


Because ants can't vote.

Quote: "Scientifically speaking, when there's no brain activity in a person, he's clinically dead. Wouldn't the same be true for a baby?"


Scientifically speaking, dead people no longer have the potential to live. Fetuses do. It doesn't matter what they are at the time of abortion, what matters is what they will become.

If people have babies and can't handle it, then they put them up for adoption. It's their fault for getting pregnant, they need to assume responsibility. In the end the child is better off.


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bitJericho
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Posted: 29th Oct 2004 05:00 Edited at: 29th Oct 2004 05:03
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Quote: "Regarding gay marriage, it turns out Bush is for civil unions, so stop whining you stupid homo babies"


That's not what was said a few weeks ago out of his own mouth. And no I am not a "homo" thank you. But I'm also not closed minded.

I could care less about the abortion stance of these politicions. I really don't care either way. What I'm against is bush and his policies on stem cell research. He wants it stopped, he doesn't even want fetuses who *have* to be aborted due to medical problems where the child would never have lived anyway to be used for stem cell research

*WOAH WOAH* Did he actually say that?? That makes perfect sense.. now that the gay marriage amendment was recently voted down in the senate..

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Jimmy
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Posted: 29th Oct 2004 05:03
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He wants embryotic stem cell research stopped.

He is against gay marriage, but not civil unions. Go figure. I hate him now.


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Kentaree
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Posted: 29th Oct 2004 05:03
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Quote: "Quote: "But why is an ant in every respect less worth than a human being?"

Because ants can't vote."


Well, that only takes one small amendment to the constitution to make iy equal, doesn't it Which shows, how one twisted person could pretty much change everything for a country, whether he is fit to or not.

Quote: "It doesn't matter what they are at the time of abortion, what matters is what they will become."


Okay, let me speak in the same way as you do. If they're aborted, they wont have the potential to become anything. When aborted, they ARE nothing.

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Ian T
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Posted: 29th Oct 2004 05:05
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Quote: "Abortion, John Kerry, and religion are irrelevant. This is about a revolutionary power seizing control. Just watch the next few days. These guys will stop at nothing to transform our country into a dictatorship."


Well at least this is amusing.

The only evidence supported so far?

A young Bush giving you the finger.

Fear.

Quote: "i could care less what individuals think, until it starts to effect me and what I want to do, that's why I'm referring to the government, who does have an effect on my life."


But you said earlier...

Quote: "And yes, it does make them mindless and selfish. Who are they to tell ME who I can love?"


When talking about non-government related individuals...?


And really, what does the fact that a baby's biologically a parasite have to do with anything? I really don't follow how that connects to the argument that they're not human beings. Is the argument that until they leave the womb they're a parsite that has no human rights? Or was that just a side-ntoe...


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bitJericho
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Posted: 29th Oct 2004 05:07
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Quote: "He wants embryotic stem cell research stopped."


That's what I meant, embryotic stem cell research.. But on a fetus that could never have lived? Why let it die in vain?

And like I said above, he's probably changing his stance to accomadate the homosexual voters..

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Ian T
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Posted: 29th Oct 2004 05:07
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Quote: "Okay, let me speak in the same way as you do. If they're aborted, they wont have the potential to become anything. When aborted, they ARE nothing."


Er...

Same logic:

A human being has no life once he's killed. When he's killed, he has no life.

Does this justify murder?

Again I just don't follow

Quote: "On that note I'd like to say that George Bush isn't a Christian"


Yes he is.


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Jimmy
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Posted: 29th Oct 2004 05:09
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Tell me, what is the difference between killing a Fetus and a newborn?

The newborn knows nothing, has no personality and is of absolutely no use to society at that point.

Would you agree to the killing of a newborn?


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bitJericho
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Posted: 29th Oct 2004 05:12
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Sorry mouse, what I mean is that they function like parasites, they really aren't human yet or life for that matter.. they don't think, they don't have a heart beat.. If you have no brain you are not a life form.. Ever known life form has a brain in one way or another..

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Posted: 29th Oct 2004 05:12 Edited at: 29th Oct 2004 05:12
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Quote: "George Bush IS a Christian"


And a damn good one at that[/sarcasm]

I agree mouse, what I said makes no sense, but I'm just doing a bad impersonation attempt of jimmy, the ONLY person on this forum who'm I've never seen having a decent conversation/argument because he's so narrow-minded, and plain full of himself.

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Posted: 29th Oct 2004 05:12
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Quote: "Quote: "The president really has NO SAY weither we go to war,"
Quote: "yes its his idea"

This is a contradiction, is it not?"


no it is NOT. if you dont know how the US government works, dont post like you do.
let me tell you again
Bush SUGGESTED to go to war, he gave the idea to the senate, who MUST pass this suggestion before war starts. the SENATE PASSED it, the SENATE allowed the war, the SENATE STARTED THE WAR. if you HATE this war, HATE the PEOPLE who VOTED FOR IT, ie the SENATORS (JOHN KERRY DID VOTE FOR THE WAR)

Quote: "These guys will stop at nothing to transform our country into a dictatorship."

are you stupid or just plain retarded, the presidents absolutly CANNOT transform our country into a dictatorship, it wont happen as long as we have the other two branches of the gov. which are still working as they should be. NEITHER people running for office WANT a dictatorship, so you saying that, only shows your ignorance.


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bitJericho
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Posted: 29th Oct 2004 05:13
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Seriously? I don't think the human race will die off soon. I am not concerned with the death of an unliving fetus.

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bitJericho
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Darwin, Kerry voted to go to war because he, along with the american public was misinformed, and in my opinion, intentinally, by Bush.

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Eric T
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@ Gay Marrige - I do not agree with the gay lifestyle, BUT I belive they should have the same rights that we do in getting wed. Id they want to, let them.

It's brining Religion into goverment, and religion controlling goverment. Hmmm if i recall correctly, that isn't supposed to happen.

@ Abortion - Oh, hell. It's not born, is it gonna pop out and say "Don't kill me, i don't wanna die?". Half of the time the baby isn't alive yet. Why not stop there, how about *18+*
Anyway, thats a touchy subject, so i'll drop it.

@ 9-11 - That was a complete F*ck-up by the Bush Administration not listening to the info the Clinton boys gave them when the "Regimes Changed". My personal opinion is that it coulda been stopped, but now it is in the past, and i don't really wanna hear about 911 anymore.

@ Kerry - IF he would ever STFU about vietnam for a few minutes and talk about his stance on things, people might take him serious. The ONLY thing he did better in those debates was he did not stutter. When I look back on it, he was very jumpy.

This tw*t also changes his mind too much. Hell we could be attacked by, say the canadians, and then we'd do our counter attack, but right before we started, he'd call all of troops back to base. This is where my most hate towards him comes from.


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Kentaree
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First of all, about the dictatorship thing, might I first bring up that as far as I know, the senate consists of party members from either of the president's parties (and others of course) so there's going to be a slight bias there anyway.

The president really has NO SAY weither we go to war

Wrong, if he didn't propose it to the senate, it wouldn't have happened. Also, how many of those senators who voted for it, stand under his leadership?

Quote: "NEITHER people running for office WANT a dictatorship"


I agree. They just want the priveledge of being the most powerful man in the world. Whether it is for the right or the wrong reasons remains to be seen.

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JoelJ
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if i recall, they have found that the little babies inside their mommy's tummy DO have life up to a few weeks.


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Eric T
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Posted: 29th Oct 2004 05:17
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Quote: "Bush SUGGESTED to go to war, "


No, he suggested that he had evidence of enough WMD's as to cause war.

Which there was maybe 1.


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Ian T
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Posted: 29th Oct 2004 05:18
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Quote: " Hell we could be attacked by, say the canadians"


They do owe us one unprovoked invasion .

Quote: "Sorry mouse, what I mean is that they function like parasites, they really aren't human yet or life for that matter.. they don't think, they don't have a heart beat.. If you have no brain you are not a life form.. Ever known life form has a brain in one way or another.."


Okay, I see your argument now.

Quote: "I agree mouse, what I said makes no sense, but I'm just doing a bad impersonation attempt of jimmy"


Heh


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bitJericho
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Posted: 29th Oct 2004 05:19
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Quote: "but right before we started, he'd call all of troops back to base"


that's just plain rediculous and unfounded. Tell me, have you never changed your mind when the FACTS changed?

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Rob K
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Posted: 29th Oct 2004 05:20 Edited at: 29th Oct 2004 05:21
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Quote: "Yes he is."


I disagree. Pacifism is one of the pillars of Christianity, one Dubya doesn't seem to know much about, and Jesus was effectively a liberal socialist. Christianity promotes tolerance, whilst Dubya is busy trying to ban gay marriage.

What a world eh?


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Ian T
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Posted: 29th Oct 2004 05:20
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Quote: "No, he suggested that he had evidence of enough WMD's as to cause war.

Which there was maybe 1."


If you look at the evidence, it was actually pretty major. That's alongside Saddam Hussain boasting about uranium enrichment technology in the past and his use of biological warfare in the past. I'm not suggesting it alone justifies the war, but if the guy didn't have WMDs it damn well wasn't for lack of trying .


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Ian T
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Posted: 29th Oct 2004 05:21
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Quote: "I disagree. Pacifism is one of the pillars of Christianity"


I'm afraid that's at direct contradiction with pretty much all of the Old Testament and a good deal of the things Jesus said too. If you want, I'll dig through the Bible online and pull up evidence, but really you just have to start reading it. Heck, the first mention of an angel says he's carrying a flaming sword, that sound very pacifistic to you ?


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Jimmy
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Posted: 29th Oct 2004 05:22
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Kentaree, did I strike a chord because you're a homosexual? I'm sorry.

Here have a pink donkey. His sweater has a rainbow on it and he loves you.


Remember, Jimmy still loves you.
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Eric T
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Posted: 29th Oct 2004 05:23
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Quote: "that's just plain rediculous and unfounded. Tell me, have you never changed your mind when the FACTS changed?
"


We all saw the same evidence about the WMD's and i said not to go in. Have i changed my mind about that yet?



When your the god for f*ckin saken leader of the United States, the Commmander in Chief of the biggest army of the world, changing your mind is not something to want to be prone to do. That will lead to low troop morale, and other sh*t that just ain't right.


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JoelJ
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Posted: 29th Oct 2004 05:23
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Quote: "Darwin, Kerry voted to go to war because he, along with the american public was misinformed, and in my opinion, intentinally, by Bush."


oh, so who's fault is it that he didnt look into it? Kerry can pull up a web article just as easy as i can, or you can, or even 'narrow-minded' jimmy can. He also as MORE access to MORE records than we do being on the senate. HE could've looked into it before he voted.


<[jimmy]> pulling nose hairs is the worst pain in the world
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Ian T
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Posted: 29th Oct 2004 05:24 Edited at: 29th Oct 2004 05:24
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Jimmy, I have no choise here as a mod but to say you have got to stop trolling here. There is no reason this thread should be locked just because of this. The abortion argument is pretty much settled now anyways. Leave it.

(Eric makes a great point above. Level-headed guy)


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JoelJ
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Posted: 29th Oct 2004 05:25
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Quote: "I disagree. Pacifism is one of the pillars of Christianity, one Dubya doesn't seem to know much about, and Jesus was effectively a liberal socialist. Christianity promotes tolerance, whilst Dubya is busy trying to ban gay marriage."


while the Bible CLEARLY states that gay marrages are wrong, and the Bible is of Christ. how does banning gay marriages go against Christ now?


<[jimmy]> pulling nose hairs is the worst pain in the world
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Rob K
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Posted: 29th Oct 2004 05:32 Edited at: 29th Oct 2004 05:33
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Quote: "while the Bible CLEARLY states that gay marrages are wrong"


So is shaving, being born out of wedlock or taking a paycheck within a year of marriage according to the same passage in the Bible. Answering your parents back is also punishable by death according to the same authority.

Read this: http://www.whosoever.org/seeds/letter84.shtml.

Funny how people love to quote the Bible for their own ends and ignore anything which disagrees with them.


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bitJericho
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Posted: 29th Oct 2004 05:34
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I'm sorry to say but the US government is not *all* about going to war. There are far many more issues that need to be resolved, and I have complete faith that Kerry can hold his own in the middle of a war.. Why would he back down, just because he's willing to change his opinion. So we later find out that the blasts had indeed not came from Canada.. Would you still want Kerry attacking canada? It's okay to change your mind.

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JoelJ
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Posted: 29th Oct 2004 05:35
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yeah, i think so to, because when christ came, he clearly said that the Law of Moses has been fulfilled, so now that you are quoting the Law of Moses, dont you think thats kinda Archaic(sp?)?


<[jimmy]> pulling nose hairs is the worst pain in the world
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Eric T
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Posted: 29th Oct 2004 05:36
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Quote: "while the Bible CLEARLY states that gay marrages are wrong, and the Bible is of Christ. how does banning gay marriages go against Christ now?
"


Can't trust the bible, Theres more then one.


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David T
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Posted: 29th Oct 2004 05:38
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What does the Bible have to do with Law anyway? Not all Americans are Christian.

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