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Dark GDK / Dark SDK

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Gervais
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Posted: 17th Nov 2004 03:45
Big question regarding the "Dark SDK" what is included, when will it bee ready and how much will it cost.

This look like a cool product it will be great to be able to use an object oriented language like C++ and have access to the Dark Basic command to crate game.
Mike Johnson
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Posted: 17th Nov 2004 04:04
More info will be released as soon as possible

Mike
CattleRustler
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Posted: 17th Nov 2004 04:50
O.o



DBP_NETLIB_v1.4.3 DarkTOPIA site coming soon!
IanG
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Posted: 17th Nov 2004 05:50
is it going to be comercial or freeware

Used to be Phoenix_insane registered in september 2003 despite what the date says to the left <--
PC - amd athlon 2.0ghz, 512mb, GeForce FX 5200 128mb, 200gb, xp pro sp2
David T
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Posted: 17th Nov 2004 07:28
Grab IanM's version off his web site - its great stuff, and free

Although he'll be taking it down when DarkSDK is released

Get 15 new commands, all the date / time commands left out of DBPro for free!
DOWNLOAD PLUGINS HERE: http://www.davidtattersall.me.uk/ and select "DarkBasic"
Cian Rice
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Posted: 17th Nov 2004 07:32
When was this annoucned?

There is only one way to package shaolin: Shaolin Soccer...
roujesky
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Posted: 17th Nov 2004 07:58
Dark SDK has not been a secret, but it does not appear to have been talked about much. I ran across it in the dev diaries. I am also VERY excited about it! I would love to be able to use VC++ because I am MUCH more comfortable with C++ than BASIC... I also know that the Visual Studio debugger works. I am still miffed that version 1.057 of DBPro broke the debugger. I wonder if all the drawing will be done in the engine itself? Single-stepping while drawing is always an adventure
I also wonder if my newly purchased expansion packs will work with dark sdk....
Reading today's dev diaries made it sound like development is moving real fast. I wonder how far away it is from shipping...
CattleRustler
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Posted: 17th Nov 2004 09:54
hopefully this will be free for DBP owners.


DBP_NETLIB_v1.4.3 DarkTOPIA site coming soon!
APEXnow
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Posted: 17th Nov 2004 10:39
David T, Ian's version has or will be discontinued.


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Nicholas Thompson
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Posted: 17th Nov 2004 10:44
Anyone got a link for IanM's one? Wouldn't mind tryign it before it gets discontinued...

Philip
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Posted: 17th Nov 2004 19:58 Edited at: 17th Nov 2004 19:59
@Cattle

From discussions at the Con, I don't believe that the SDK will be free. Thats the reason why TGC has asked, and IanM has agreed, to take his interface library down from his site.

@All

I remain a bit puzzled by the marketing logic behind the SDK. My understanding, and possibly this is wrong, is that TGC hopes the SDK will be used/adopted by professional games companies. I certainly hope that would be the case as it'd be great to see the community expand into professional companies. However, given that there is still a plethora of bugs in important DBPro commands, some of which are fairly critical, sadly I still don't think DBPro is in a stable enough state where a professional games company would use it for more than prototyping. So my guess is that the SDK is likely only to be bought/used by people already in the community or C bedroom coders who were interested in DBPro but didn't want to mess about with basic syntax, which is another limited market.

Of course, even if I am right, this should change once all the outstanding bugs (now numbering in excess of 90) are fixed. But, in the meantime, I remain puzzled. I think if I were Lee I would have asked Mike to spend time fixing all outstanding bugs rather than work on the SDK. But, then, I'm not.

As my good friend Winnie the Pooh once observed, I am but a bear of little brain.



Philip

What do you mean, bears aren't supposed to wear hats and a tie? P3.2ghz / 1 gig / GeForce FX 5900 128meg / WinXP home
Ianhfar
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Posted: 17th Nov 2004 20:28
I have to agree with Philip here, I wish TGC would concentrate on fixing the outstanding bugs....

Focus... Thats what we need, but typical developers , they don't want to fix boring buggy code, but venture onto more exciting stuff. ( aren't we all like that!)

just my 2 pence worth
roujesky
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Posted: 17th Nov 2004 23:40
I am VERY new to DBPro, so I feel like I am on the outside looking in. That being said, I see the SDK as a new direction for the engine. I do not know why/how, but the engineer that wrote the editor for DB is no longer there. It has been stated that the editor would not be fixed. The IDE looks OLD and CLUNKY. Overhauling it would require a lot of work. Why not piggy-back onto Visual Studio? You get a good IDE (with a working debugger) and the staff can concentrate on the engine itself. Beside that, the flexiblity is there. You like C++, OK, use it. If you like VB, go ahead and use it. C#, same.
The only downside is that not everyone has Visual Studio and it can be pricey.....

thanx
Shadow Robert
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Posted: 17th Nov 2004 23:47
Philip, i've been under the impression that the SDK will be free for those who are developing for DarkBasic Professional. Yet under a License scheme, meaning you have to purchase for projects outside of DBP needs (ie TPC).

Could be wrong though, if it is pay to use even under DBP that is going to hit some DLL developers hard.


Rob K
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Posted: 17th Nov 2004 23:57 Edited at: 17th Nov 2004 23:57
Quote: "Could be wrong though, if it is pay to use even under DBP that is going to hit some DLL developers hard."


Possibly, although a few of us have other tricks up our sleeves.


BlueGUI:Windows UI Plugin - All the power of the windows interface in your DBPro games.
Philip
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Posted: 19th Nov 2004 09:02
... and RobK has very big and long sleeves.

Philip

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walaber
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Posted: 19th Nov 2004 10:52
I sure hope it doesn't cost much, as it will affect my Newton wrapper if I have to pay some kind of license just to make the wrapper use DBP commands (right now I'm using the amazing C++ interface)...

Go Go Gadget DBPRO!

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waffle
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Posted: 19th Nov 2004 12:33 Edited at: 20th Nov 2004 11:10
edit: removed ramblings. where is that delete post button?
David T
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Posted: 19th Nov 2004 15:55
Quote: "David T, Ian's version has or will be discontinued."


I said that, didn't it?

Get 15 new commands, all the date / time commands left out of DBPro for free!
DOWNLOAD PLUGINS HERE: http://www.davidtattersall.me.uk/ and select "DarkBasic"
OSX Using Happy Dude
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Posted: 19th Nov 2004 16:04
I thought it was going to be free...

Walk softly... and carry a big gun...
Dave J
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Posted: 19th Nov 2004 16:24
I also had the impression it would be free as well.


"Computers are useless - They can only give you answers."
David T
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Posted: 19th Nov 2004 17:05
Just wondering - why is IanM revoking his interface? He did do it first, after all..

Get 15 new commands, all the date / time commands left out of DBPro for free!
DOWNLOAD PLUGINS HERE: http://www.davidtattersall.me.uk/ and select "DarkBasic"
Mike Johnson
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Posted: 19th Nov 2004 19:24
The SDK is going to be aimed at a wide range of people and developing this is most beneficial to DB Pro. While I have been working on this I have also had the opportunity to resolve several issues within the DB Pro source code. I haven't updated anything on the bug forum as of yet but as soon as I have tested everything I will do.

The SDK will not be free as it's a brand new product. It is based on the DB Pro engine but it's set up in a completely different way. For those who purchase the SDK you will receive include and library files and you can link into these to use the commands. It works in a similar way to the DirectX SDK. If we were to give this away then we might as well start letting everyone download DB Pro for free as well.

Mike
Philip
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Posted: 19th Nov 2004 19:34
Right. I said it wasn't going to be free. After all, why else would IanM be asked to remove his C++ interface library?

Anyway, I can understand TGC's position on the SDK. I don't see why it should necessarily be free. As Mike is spending a lot of time on it, its only fair TGC should be paid for this work. If you want a freeware equivalent, download IanM's library.

@Mike

Good to hear bug fixes are happening at the mo - I thought they had been postponed until FPSC came out. Do you think all the multiple camera issues (about 7 at last count) will be fixed in the next update? I know we all have our favourite bug and you can't fix everyone's bug, but I'm hopeful. Plus, I'm prepared to try bribery if necessary!

Philip

What do you mean, bears aren't supposed to wear hats and a tie? P3.2ghz / 1 gig / GeForce FX 5900 128meg / WinXP home
Mike Johnson
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Posted: 19th Nov 2004 20:00
The camera problem with multiple terrains is next on my hit list. I'm adding the code into the SDK so it's a perfect opportunity for me to fix this bug and others to do with the terrain

As for the other bugs I need to arrange the ones on the bug forum into some kind of priority so the most important are fixed first.

Mike
OSX Using Happy Dude
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Posted: 19th Nov 2004 20:02
Quote: "Right. I said it wasn't going to be free"

Indeed you did... Mustn't argue with a bear again...

Anyhoo, any idea as to the cost ?

Quote: "why is IanM revoking his interface? He did do it first, after all.."

Unfortunately his has one major problem - when the executable is run, all the DBPro DLL's are made availiable - what Mike is doing is making sure that doesn't happen...

Walk softly... and carry a big gun...
Mike Johnson
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Posted: 19th Nov 2004 20:10
Price information will be released soon.

The SDK isn't so bad after all. I have been able to fix another bug while working on it - http://forum.thegamecreators.com/?m=forum_view&t=41313&b=15

Mike
OSX Using Happy Dude
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Posted: 19th Nov 2004 20:27
Good-oh...

Walk softly... and carry a big gun...
CattleRustler
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Posted: 19th Nov 2004 21:49
if its not free then do registered dbp owners get some sort of uber discount? I dont think I can justify buying DBP twice, especially when an sdk is a group of dll's for developers to use from a different programming langage and ide, taking even more focus off of DBP's broken bits.


DBP_NETLIB_v1.4.3 DarkTOPIA site coming soon!
roujesky
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Posted: 19th Nov 2004 22:57
I really do not have a problem with the Dark SDK being considered a different product, thus not free. I don't work for free either
Can anyone speclate whether the expansion packs (EZRotate and Enhancements) will be 'visible' through the SDK? Also, please tell me that it is compatible with Visual Studio! Does it look much like IanM's interface? I have not looked at it, but if it is similar, I might download it if I can find it.

thanx
roujesky
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Posted: 19th Nov 2004 23:02
OK, just a little more on the subject.... Will I be able to go into Visual Studio, and have a new choice of creating a 'Dark SDK' project and it would do all the dirty work of setting up the program for me.... That would be fantastic.
OSX Using Happy Dude
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Posted: 19th Nov 2004 23:03 Edited at: 19th Nov 2004 23:04
Quote: "Visual Studio!"

Should be with V6 - dont know about 2003 .Net yet...

Quote: " Does it look much like IanM's interface"

No - each command has db in front of it.

Quote: "and have a new choice of creating a 'Dark SDK' project and it would do all the dirty work of setting up the program for me"

Doubt it - it probably be a .LIB file

Walk softly... and carry a big gun...
Mike Johnson
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Posted: 20th Nov 2004 00:08
It is compatible with Visual Studio and there is an option in Visual Studio to create a new program to get you started which gives you a basic template.

Expansion packs will be available in the future for the SDK.

Mike
IanG
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Posted: 20th Nov 2004 00:13
but will people who have dbpro be able to get a discount or get it for free?

Used to be Phoenix_insane registered in september 2003 despite what the date says to the left <--
PC - amd athlon 2.0ghz, 512mb, GeForce FX 5200 128mb, 200gb, xp pro sp2
Shadow Robert
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Posted: 20th Nov 2004 00:55
Make sure you make it as a .Net Control/Managed DLL, would be a pain in the ass trying to convert just to suit Visual C#.

This said, it is a backward decision to sell it rather than License it. While you can say 'yeah, but we might as well give away DarkBASIC Professional for free if this is the case'

I don't see how this would be so given how everything is setup.
If you look at it, if anyone wants DarkBASIC Professional for free, they just have to download the Trial.. there is a common way once the trial end to cleanly remove it and use it again.

They would have the watermark, though.

I'm not saying you should add a watermark or anything like that, but MANY professional middleware companies DO NOT charge for people to use thier software. They charge for them to COMMERCIALLY use thier software.

This means that anyone can try out what they need to, and if they wish to retail thier product; then they would have to pay a license fee to do so. Usually some things are also cut down in the free versions; like a Physics Engine will remove the enhanced Rag-Doll stuff, which are functions that just make creating Rag-Dolls and utilising them easier.. meaning longer development time.

You want to give developers incentives to use the DarkSDK Middleware, further more I agree with above; that I don't want to have to have spent £50 on DarkBASIC Professional, just to have to spend another £50 to get the SDK to develop for it.

And infact if you set a license scheme you could make ALOT more, the trick would be to simply undercut competitors. Also offering an X-Box solution version would extend the useability of the SDK.


Mike Johnson
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Posted: 20th Nov 2004 01:19
There have been a few comments about IanM's library and why we have asked him to take it down. The reason for this is that it is reverse engineering of the software and it's not really the thing to be doing. We have always had the intention of developing this SDK but because we haven't worked on it until recently we had no problem with IanM's library existing. Now however there is a conflict. Nothing against IanM at all but his library interface is not legal.

The SDK isn't going to be given away for free. There will be a price to pay for it. As for the pricing I think it will work out well but wait and see until things are sorted for definite.

There are no DLLs with the SDK - it uses library files and includes.

Raven - which companies give away game engine SDKs for free? GarageGames, Cipher, Power Render - none of them. The list goes on. There's nothing wrong with a trial / demo version but to give away a full SDK for free just wouldn't work. I don't see the logic behind that.

Mike
Kevin Picone
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Posted: 20th Nov 2004 02:04
For what it's worth, I don't see any reason why DBpro users should expect DarkSDK as part of their Dbpro purchase (It's not an update). Although, I can certainly see their been room for a update plan for existing Dbpro owners, whom may not be very Basic orientated, but certainly not free.

Kevin Picone
[url]www.underwaredesign.com[/url]
Play Nice! Play Basic - Next Generation Basic (Release V1.03 Out Now)
Neofish
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Posted: 20th Nov 2004 02:27
When is it going to come out? (I would quite like it for Christmas (if it's compatible with DevC++ or has it's own IDE))

[center]int N30F15H,a=1; do { N30F15H++; } while (a==1);
[center]
Mike Johnson
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Posted: 20th Nov 2004 02:29
Will be out before Christmas. Going to be looking at DevC++ next week so we can ensure it works fine with it. Can also look into other compilers.

Mike
IanM
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Posted: 20th Nov 2004 02:47 Edited at: 20th Nov 2004 02:50
Quote: "reverse engineering"


Erm, no ... all of the calls made by the interface library are calls to existing public routines hald within the DLLs. All my interface does is provide a linking call to these public routines using routines I invented myself. There is no reverse engineering in my code at all, and therefore no law broken ...

Anyway, the reasons that the interface library is being discontinued are:
- The TGC developers have to earn a living
- I have no interest in competing against them
- I'm a nice guy

... not necessarily in that order.

EDIT: As agreed, the interface library has finally been withdrawn from my site. It is no longer available to anyone beyond myself.

I am looking into creating a header file for those who have existing interface library code in existence so that you can recompile without code changes.

*** Coming soon - Network Plug-in - Check my site for info ***
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Philip
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Posted: 20th Nov 2004 02:52
Really? In that case let me kill one debate right here.

If what IanM says is true, his interface library is not any breach of copyright.

Philip

What do you mean, bears aren't supposed to wear hats and a tie? P3.2ghz / 1 gig / GeForce FX 5900 128meg / WinXP home
Neofish
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Posted: 20th Nov 2004 02:53
Quote: "Will be out before Christmas. Going to be looking at DevC++ next week so we can ensure it works fine with it. Can also look into other compilers."


Woo great. Now to hope it comes in at under £30

[center]int N30F15H,a=1; do { N30F15H++; } while (a==1);
[center]
Shadow Robert
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Posted: 20th Nov 2004 02:56 Edited at: 20th Nov 2004 03:01
Renderware, Tokamak, Ogre3D, etc.. provide you with free trials.

Renderware requires you to mail in an application first, but I'd rather spend 3-4days waiting for an application reply rather than paying just to view what something is like.

Quote: "For what it's worth, I don't see any reason why DBpro users should expect DarkSDK as part of their Dbpro purchase (It's not an update). Although, I can certainly see their been room for a update plan for existing Dbpro owners, whom may not be very Basic orientated, but certainly not free."


Currently we're using DarkSDK 1.2 with DBP to create TPC DLLs.
That is what the help file calls the GlobStruct.h

I believe taking away a server they've provided free, for so long is taking the cake a lil. Also I could be wrong, but I believe before DBP was released we were promised the FREE ability to create extensions for the language.

I don't give a damn what the DarkSDK is used for outside of DBP or how much they charge for it.. but I don't think we should be charged to use it FOR DBP.

On the other hand, I don't really care. Completed work on my .Net Control DLL version of the DBP Interface; if i need to create anything I'll use that instead. There's nothing illegal about using exposed engine functions within the bounderies of the DBP EULA.

Of course they might change this in later versions, but I'd see that as a little petty and vindictive.

[edit.post]

Quote: "If what IanM says is true, his interface library is not any breach of copyright."


IanM did not edit the DLLs, disassemble, etc.. He simply read the *publically exposed* Resource Table, and prototyped the functions into a Namespace Class.

Then when building the classes, allowed C++ to create the linker libraries.

With my C# Control Library, I've not even needed to create any 3rd Party Libraries or such.. it just accesses the functions directly.

Microsoft's EULA on Dynamic Link Libraries notes that you are allowed to use freely exposed functions. If TGC don't want them used then they should encrypt the Resource Table


David T
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Posted: 20th Nov 2004 02:57
I do think it is a bit dodgy to allow Ian to release the library, then as soon as you release a product which is the same you then object to him having the library.

Also Ian - it says in your site you removed it of your own free will. Why did Mike then say that they asked you to take it down?

Get 15 new commands, all the date / time commands left out of DBPro for free!
DOWNLOAD PLUGINS HERE: http://www.davidtattersall.me.uk/ and select "DarkBasic"
Mike Johnson
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Posted: 20th Nov 2004 03:00
Raven - I think you're getting confused with what the SDK is. The Dark Games SDK contains everything you need to develop DB Pro applications in C++. It contains all of the DB Pro commands e.g.



The TPC SDK is something completely different. Creating extensions for the language is not related to the Dark Games SDK.

Mike
Shadow Robert
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Posted: 20th Nov 2004 03:05
Unfortunately your not seeing the point in having IanM's Interface for developers such-as Walabar is.
If you charge then either he will have to go against your wishes of using the Interface.. OR start charging to recoup losses.

I don't feel that is fair. And seriously, the TPC (which has DarkSDK 1.2 put underneath the help title) SDK is pathetic.
Lee had said it was a stop-gap measure until the full SDK was developed. Didn't know that ment 'until something is made we can charge for'


IanM
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Posted: 20th Nov 2004 03:09
Here is the excerpt from my MSN log, just so that you can all see that there is nothing dodgy going on here

Quote: "08/10/2004 18:38:33 Mike IanM basically it works the same way, probably very similar to your interface library
08/10/2004 18:38:52 Mike IanM there is one thing with your interface library, you can probably guess what I'm going to say
08/10/2004 18:39:49 IanM Mike You would like me to discontinue it?
08/10/2004 18:39:57 Mike IanM yes please
08/10/2004 18:40:07 Mike IanM I'm sorry for all your work done on it but there's a conflict "


It's only an except because we discussed other stuff in there too. As you can see, I had already guessed that this was coming, and had previously decided to drop the interface library if I was asked.

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Neofish
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Posted: 20th Nov 2004 03:18
Quote: "it says in your site you removed it of your own free will"


he did. They didn't force him to.....just asked politely

[center]int N30F15H,a=1; do { N30F15H++; } while (a==1);
[center]
Tartopom
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Posted: 20th Nov 2004 03:35
Hello,

So I presume that using DarkSDK is faster and greater than using Dbpro. So Now, What about Dark Basic ... Obsolete ?
Kentaree
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Posted: 20th Nov 2004 03:47
DBP is a language, DarkSDK is a library for another language. As they'll most likely be using the same underlying engine, they'll both be updated together I would think.

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