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Geek Culture / Hillary Clinton bashing the electronic media industry

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Jimmy
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Posted: 12th Apr 2005 14:50
Way to go mouse, you dragged Neo into this.

*runs for the hills*

Ian T
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Posted: 12th Apr 2005 14:52 Edited at: 12th Apr 2005 14:53
Big Monster Post Warning

I'll dig up a list of the ridiculous things taxpayers are paying for here in NH in a bit, with sources. I have notes for that somewhere. It's been bothering me more lately as since Lynch was elected he's been, as any fimrly democratic politician, working towards making taxes higher and making the government control more organizations.

Quote: "The government's job is to merely protect our rights and that is it. It is not a force for corrective social good. Merely, an impersonal body guard."


Yes-- for two simple reasons:

1. If a government is given power as a corrective social force, that power will lead to corruption. It is quite simply inevitable-- as long as there is a system where organized group of represenitives have any strong position of power, that power will be abused for the common benefit of that group. Case in simple point, the degredation of both major US parties as the country have veered further toward the left in recent decades (if you wish to debate that last point, we could pursue that too, but I'm not sure if you would agree with me or not).

2. Force of good is relative. (and corrective is a very dangerous term, but that's a tangent to this topic.) As long as a democratic government is trying to be a force of good in people's lives rather than a force that protects their liberties, it will be manaing the popular idea of good. To some, for example, the war on drugs is an excellent cause. But they're only looking at it from a moral point of view, considering their own perception of it, rather than also an ethical point of view, considering how they should apply their own morals to others. An ethical individual respects other people's opinions and allows them to live their own lives-- an ethical government should do the same. But as long as the government is trying to maintain good in society, it will only be enforcing a single worldview upon people who have a right to live their lives their own way. How can this be seen as ethical? Why should the majority have the power to correct the minority

Is that not a deeply unsettling concept? It's already in action all over America and has been for quite a while. 51% vote for water flouridation and 49% of the state are forced-- effectively, at gunpoint-- to recieve a medication they have no interest in, in a dose they can not control, in an amount they can not measure. 51% vote for gun registration because they don't feel safe with firearms around them and 49% are now less capable of defending themselves.

Perhaps it would strike home a bit more if I used examples more at odds with (what I believe to be, I may be wrong ) your own worldview. Should a Catholic majority be able to enforce their religion upon a religiously diversified minority? Should a firearm-bearing majority be able to enforce their opinion that owning guns is safer upon a minority, forcing them to own guns?

These may seem unlikely but if history has proven one thing, is that if a tool to do evil is available, it will be used. The downhill slope from a government that does "reasonable" things like preventing 12 year olds from buying alchohol, driving trucks or buying firearms to a government that utterly controls and restricts everyone's life is one without a single place to stall or stop, and there sure as hell isn't any way to turn around. We're heading down that slope right now.

The point I am ultimatly making is that if a democratic government is used as a "corrective social" force, there is no controlling how far it will go, no controlling how fair it will be, and no controlling how much harm it will do. A government that, as you put it, is "merely an impersonal body guard", on the other hand, has a strict and irrefutable set of guidelines holding it in place. It does not exist to tamper with the social climate and thus it can not be used as a tool to harm it.

Now I'm not saying I believe that the other extreme must be ideal either. I think there's a line somewhere, a line between preventing kids from buying vodka and preventing adults from buying beer; a line between enforcing mental care for a completely insane individual and enforcing mental care for anyone who scores lower than 90 on a government enforced IQ test. I'm not sure just where that line is. I do know we would be far worse off if the government did not take some effort to act as a social force-- in that, I suppose, I'm not completely libertarian. The problem is, once it starts, it won't stop, and it can't be stopped. As far as I'm aware a government that started sliding in the direction of social control has never stopped in even vaguely recent history. There is no way at all of enforcing that line.

I'm rambling more than a little bit here. To sum up what I'm saying: There are big problems; the far right, in terms of a government that does not touch socail issues at all, is not an answer, but actively moving further to the left is only going to hurt the situation more and more.

(chuckle. so much for the 'simple reasons' part )

Perhaps there is no answer and it boils down to the fact that every good government will eventually erode, degrade and ultimatly collapse, through explosion or implosions. History certainly provides a nice case for that.

billy the kid
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Posted: 12th Apr 2005 15:25 Edited at: 12th Apr 2005 15:47
Quote: "but there's a very clear and simple violation of rights going on when a single mother can't afford to buy healthy food for her children because a large piece of her tax dollar is being used in institutions that not only have no relationship to the purpose of a government, but have no affect on her quality of life or even that of her neighbors."


Sorry didnt see that. You do have a point, but Im not sure lowering taxes would exactly solve this problem.

Quote: "Opinions are useful in a debate when they're backed up by facts. For example:

Quote: "Quote: "This is a very foolish statement to throw around."

Subjective, opinionated... "

I backed this up with a full argument supporting my case. You however offered nothing but the term "wasted" with no reasons given."


LOL!!! No actually you backed up your opinion with more opinions, not facts.

Quote: "refuse to supply sources for your arguments"


Well except for the gun stuff, you have not provided any sources whatsoever. And 2 out of 4 sources you provided are not credible. And 2 out of 4 sources are the same source. So that means 66% of the sources you provided are not credible. And unfortunately I dont have the luxury of being able to verify the NRA's sources. Or the Handgun Control group either for that matter. But I figure both sources use facts from credible sources however dont show facts that can hurt their cause.

Quote: "But aside, what the hell does that matter? Last I checked popular opinion didn't define reality."


It is not popular opinion, its popular economist opinion. As in they spend their lives studying the economy therefore have some expertise on the subject. I trust Greenspan and other economists much more than you or anyone else when it comes to the economy. So Im not really "appealing to false authority" here. But remain ignorant if you wish.

And since you insist on sources which you rarely give, here are some for the national deficit stuff:
http://money.cnn.com/2004/11/19/news/economy/fed_greenspan/?cnn=yes
http://www.cbc.ca/story/business/national/2004/05/06/green050406.html
http://post.economics.harvard.edu/faculty/rogoff/papers/US_Deficit_Problem_Not_Only_A_Domestic_Issue.pdf (not sure how credible though economists from harvard and berkley plus a little cryptic)
http://www.mises.org/freemarket_detail.asp?control=435&sortorder=articledate (same comment about previous source except economist is from auburn)

Is that enough sources to prove my point? It really is common knowledge for anyone who follows the economy closely. BTW I didnt even mention the trade deficit stuff, but it is just as troubling. Possibly more troubling since its larger I believe.

EDIT:
Oh and Bush "wasted" the surplus because he could have kept the momentum rolling and vastly reduced or eliminated the national deficit thus increasing the value of the dollar and making the economy stronger. His tax cut did make the economy stronger I think, but short-term. Fixing the deficit is a long-term way to strengthen the economy. But there should have never been a tax cut. You NEVER cut taxes when you go to war. Thats partly the reason he increased the deficit so much and wasted the surplus. And although he was trying to cut taxes before 9/11, he could have stopped his silly tax cut campaign afterwards. His tax cut helped him garner votes, helped stimulate the economy short-term, however has probably led to more problems long-term. But we wont know for sure for awhile. Though I do give credit to Bush for his campaign to fix social security, one of the contributors to national deficit.
Ian T
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Posted: 12th Apr 2005 15:34 Edited at: 12th Apr 2005 15:34
Quote: "It is not popular opinion, its popular economist opinion."


You know what? I give up. You win. Could you please stop now?

billy the kid
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Posted: 12th Apr 2005 15:44 Edited at: 12th Apr 2005 16:11
woot!!!

EDIT:
Even though Ive already won, I just wanted to point out that you are more the culprit of ad hominen fallacies aka personal attacks, not me. But I am guilty of such fallacies too. And I could see how you think the economist stuff could be an ad populum fallacy however the majority in this case are experts. So really there is no fallacy.
Mattman
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Posted: 13th Apr 2005 07:10
I think it's that kids don't care anymore. If my parents ground me from computer for a week, so what, I still have my guitar...

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Jimmy
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Posted: 13th Apr 2005 07:11
I'm going to ground my kids from the toilet.

That'll teach em.

Lost in Thought
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Posted: 13th Apr 2005 09:30
I wouldn't do that Jimmy ... unless you have alot of newspapers around on the floor

dugzilla
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Posted: 13th Apr 2005 21:52
No,Jimmy's right.

This is hard to say...Your Wrong!
Matt Rock
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Posted: 16th Apr 2005 06:24 Edited at: 16th Apr 2005 06:27
I've been working a lot lately and completely forgot about this thread... go me. I love how a thread about Hilary Clinton morphed into a debate about gun control!

First off, I totally agree with Jeku and everyone else who said we shouldn't elect Hilary as president in 2008. Being a firm liberal dem, I refuse to vote for someone with a conservative republican agenda. While Hilary Clinton "claims" she's a dem, she's against abortion, video games, and just about everything else that Republicans are against. Looks like our pickings in 2008 are going to be slim.

Secondly, I agree with Billy... we need to strengthen enforcement of the ratings systems. What I keep hearing from politicians is that games should be made more "morally outstanding" and the such... I'm a 25 year old adult, so I play adult games that carry the "M" label.

Side note: One thing I found hilarious about Clinton's speech, she claims there's no ratings system for games. Uh, what's the ESRB then? It's on every game I've seen on store shelves since around 1997, give or take a year, and I don't understand how Clinton could say something that silly.

Thirdly, lastly, about gun control: You all know me as a liberal, and I have a tendency to spark arguements, so I'm going to keep this rather simple, but, I agree with Billy and the gun-control side of this debate. I'm not going to bother going and getting statistics and all that. It just makes sense. It worked in England... they watched violent crimes drop rapidly and significantly. NRA buffs chant this rediculous rhetoric about "freedom" and "constitutional rights..." well, lets look at that, shall we?

Quote: " [from the US Constitution]
Amendment II - Right to bear arms. Ratified 12/15/1791

A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed."


Look at the date it was ratified! This bill was written at a time when those pesky indians were being problematic (before the white folks nearly genocided them off, with guns I should add). We were burning people on stakes, and I'd guess that about 9/10'ths of the populace were still farmers who needed to hunt for food and all that. NO ONE needs guns anymore. Sorry, but if someone were breaking into your house, isn't it easier to call the police? If you shoot them and they live, even on your private property, they can sue you, and if you shoot them and they die, no matter what they stole or what laws they broke, you still go to prison for 2nd degree murder, and that's a fact. If you own a gun, I think of you as a criminal... well, criminally ignorant anyway. I've seen statistics that swing both ways, but at the end of the day, common sense (something that gun nuts don't seem to have much of) dictates that if we allow people to have guns, then we're allowing them to shoot people. You don't have to protect yourself from ANYONE... that's what the police are here for, and the last I checked, they do a very good job in every jurisdiction within the United States of America. By using your firearm to "protect" your family, you're stooping just as low as the criminals. And by the way, I've never met a single proponent of the 2nd amendment who lived in a heavily populated area... I think it's fair to say that 90% (this is a guess, not a statistic, so keep your heads screwed on) of the gun nuts live in Arkansas and Tennessee and places like that. The NRA is sick, gun nuts are sick, and I think anyone who agrees with those lunatic extremists is sick. And FACT: I challenged a member of the NRA to a fist fight, live and on the air at my college radio show, and he very fearfully declined. We then had three of our female panelists agree to look at his, um, "stuff" on the air, and he bashfully declined that too. My thesis on the air that night? Gun nuts are people with inferiority complexes. It was a pretty funny episode that night

- Matt Rock

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Megaton Cat
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Posted: 16th Apr 2005 06:33 Edited at: 16th Apr 2005 06:33
The "Violence in video games affecting kids" is an endless debatable loophole. Yes you can argue it to death but it will keep poping up over and over again by the same ignorent people.

I find it's better just to turn a deaf ear...
(I'm speaking as someone who wrote countless "violence in games" essays & articles not to mention argued with about 700 people on the topic)

My cat! My cat is on fire! Dear god someone help!
Benjamin
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Posted: 16th Apr 2005 06:35
Quote: "Sorry, but if someone were breaking into your house, isn't it easier to call the police?"

You're being sarcastic, right?


"Lets migrate like bricks" - Me
Ian T
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Posted: 16th Apr 2005 07:16 Edited at: 16th Apr 2005 08:42
Quote: "It worked in England... they watched violent crimes drop rapidly and significantly."


No, they didn't. Violent crime has grown progressively worse and continues to do so every time they put through another law banning some form of defense (in a few years it's going to be illegal to poke a rapist...)

Quote: "NRA buffs chant this rediculous rhetoric about "freedom" and "constitutional rights..."


You think those things are ridiculous?

Quote: "And FACT: I challenged a member of the NRA to a fist fight, live and on the air at my college radio show, and he very fearfully declined."


Gee, that proves they're all sickos doesn't it!

Lost in Thought
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Posted: 16th Apr 2005 07:40
Quote: "Looks like our pickings in 2008 are going to be slim."


Our pickings have been slim for some time now.

Jeku
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Posted: 16th Apr 2005 07:50
Quote: "she's against abortion, video games, and just about everything else that Republicans are against."


Please clarify--- isn't Lieberman a Democrat?

Quote: "Gun nuts are people with inferiority complexes."


Watch what you say. I don't have an inferiority complex. Just because someone doesn't want to show you their "package" doesn't mean they have a complex. Hell, I wouldn't show you my package or have a fight with you either--- does that mean I have a complex?

Matt --- Since you seem to be more of an intellect than some of the other people I disagree in this thread (honestly), can you just answer this one question for me? If they ban guns, do you really think "the bad guys" will hand over all their weapons? Just answer me that.


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the_winch
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Posted: 16th Apr 2005 08:53
Quote: "No, they didn't. Violent crime has grown progressively worse and continues to do so every time they put through another law banning some form of defense (in a few years it's going to be illegal to poke a rapist...)"


Tell me how many guns the tightening of the laws removed from the public. There where so few people with a gun in the first place trying to say it made a difference isn't a convincing argument.

Quote: "this is not a quote"
Ian T
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Posted: 16th Apr 2005 10:40 Edited at: 16th Apr 2005 10:44
Quote: "Tell me how many guns the tightening of the laws removed from the public. There where so few people with a gun in the first place trying to say it made a difference isn't a convincing argument."


So now minorities don't matter any more?

Besides, you didn't even address what I mentioned, the tiny issue of more people being killed, raped and robbed.

But instead of considering that giving the people liberty to actually defend themselves when they're attacked might help the situation, the government there simply continues to put more and more restrictions on any kind of potential violence, which, as any basic application of common sense (or the statistics themselves) reveal, only the law abiding citizens follow in the first place. And it just keeps getting worse.

You can see the same trends in cities like New York here.

(Also see http://www.homeoffice.gov.uk/rds/recordedcrime1.html)

Jimmy
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Posted: 16th Apr 2005 10:46
Guns don't kill people.

Kids who play GTA kill people.

Ian T
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Posted: 16th Apr 2005 10:47
And kangaroos. Those kangaroos are lethal. It's the reason nobody ever messes with Australia: they have too many kangaroos.



Jimmy
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Ian T
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Posted: 16th Apr 2005 10:49
Having been outkangarooed, I will take a little bow and walk out the side exit.

Benjamin
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Posted: 16th Apr 2005 10:52 Edited at: 16th Apr 2005 11:17
Seeing as I couldn't really be bothered to post anything more than a single line, I'll say something now.

Quote: "Sorry, but if someone were breaking into your house, isn't it easier to call the police?"

No, no its not. Personally, I would rather arm myself(not necessarily with a gun) and fend the person off, than to wait half on hour for the cops to arrive(and by that time be dead). The idea of just running to the phone doesn't quite make sense, because it won't help you unless the cops can get there in like 2 minutes, which is unlikely.

Really Matt, you should learn to respect other's opinions rather than insulting anyone who doesn't agree with you. Saying something like "Gun nuts are people with inferiority complexes" really gives the impression that you think people with opinions different to yours are automatically wrong.


"Lets migrate like bricks" - Me
Ian T
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Posted: 16th Apr 2005 10:54
Benjamin has a powerful point.

Quite frankly I find it disturbing that people these days are so indoctrined with pacifict propaganda that they would rather be, and let their friends and family be, raped and/or murdered than give them the power to defend themselves.

UnderLord
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Posted: 16th Apr 2005 15:24
No. No one gets it do they? you think that they give a damn about video games? or movies that kill people? they act hurt when one family has a loss and its all over the news it is called politics and i don't care for it. Politics are for people who can't make it in the real world i wish they'd do away with it...they think games are the evil here? maybe they should take a step back loosin that tie and look at them selfs in the mirror.

I am not anti-government at all i just think government would be a whole lot better if they didnt have to pretend to like someting they don't or care about something they don't care about...instead of trying to tell people how to raise there own kids why don't they mind there business and raise theres?

But thats just me...i hate politics and thats where i stand...someday politics will not affect our life as much or even at all it will just be a understatement in the human races evolution to something better...but preferrably i'd like to do away with it because all politics does is hurt all of us and hold us back.

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the_winch
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Posted: 17th Apr 2005 03:29
Quote: "So now minorities don't matter any more?"


If virtually nobody owned a gun before and practically nobody carried one. How could the tightening up the laws have that much of an effect? Crime is a complex issue and you are just ignoring all other influences to justify your opinion.

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Matt Rock
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Posted: 17th Apr 2005 05:17
Jeku, I agree with you that bad guys won't hand over their guns, but the point would be, new bad guys won't get guns, and that, I think, would reduce crime. And Mouse, I sort of resent your claim that I fell for "Pacifist Propaganda." Let me explain why:

I grew up in Binghamton, New York... it's one of the biggest cities in New York State, and ironically, the least famous. Being that we're only about 1.5 - 2 hours from NYC, we have a lot of gangs around here. Constantly on the news I see violence tearing up my local community, and the number of gun crimes has tripled in the past few years. I for one can tell you without question that these criminals don't always use automatic weapons, and can't in a city like this, where the police response time is under 4 minutes. Instead, they tend to use shotguns and pistols, all of which can be (and probably have been) legally purchased at gun shows. I'm not a pacifist... I don't hug or even like trees (when I'm not using Treemagik ), I love red meat, I think greenpeace is silly and my favourite sport is Boxing (I'm still a Roy Jones fan, something for a different debate I'm sure). Granted, this isn't L.A. or Brooklyn, where they use AK-47's and whatever else, but here, in my own town, I've seen over-the-counter weapons account for almost every murder in Binghamton.

The one thing no one addressed: if you use a weapon, you go to jail. The law says you can bear arms, but doesn't say you can use them lawfully and not go to prison. If someone were breaking into your house, calling the police would be the SMART thing to do, as shooting them can get you sued or landed in the slammer with a 400-lb serial rapist named Bubba. Can you protect your property, loved ones, or even yourself, while doing time? I think not.

Why do you need an assault rifle to go hunting? Someone answer me that

And Mouse, in regards to the NRA buffs and their persistant ranting about freedom and constitutional rights, yes, I think it's VERY silly. The freedom to shoot someone IS NOT FREEDOM. Like I said before, the 2nd amendment was written a very long time ago, when people actually needed weapons to protect themselves. Nowadays, we have police in every location within the juridiction of the United States of America, from Alaska to Wyoming, and even in Puerto Rico, which isn't quite a state yet but probably will be relatively soon. My point is, the second amendment is a relic from a candlelit era when it was a risky venture to live in the United States and not relatively close to civilization. An era when wolves were more of a threat than criminals. And if the founding fathers were magically brought back to life and given control of this country, I'd bet every penny in my bank account that one of the very first things they'd do would be to repeal, or at least re-word, the second amendment. When they see all of the school shootings (yes, most school shootings happen with legal firearms), and the hunters using uzi's, and when they sit down to talk to a member of the Michigan Militia, who will actually tell you that by not owning a firearm you're a traitor and "un-american," I doubt it would be a very difficult decision for them.

I can't rightly say that I'm sorry for the inferiority complex comment, because it's my belief that guns don't make an ounce of sense. I dare someone, anyone, to give me one good example of a positive thing that ever happened thanks to guns. And don't say "Well, we killed the Nazi's," because if the nazi's didn't have guns in the first place WWII wouldn't have happened. Anyway, my point is, I say they have an inferiority complex because they feel they need a weapon to protect themselves. I don't need to tell any of you this statistic, as I'm positive you know it already, but do you know how often a burglar or a rapist uses a weapon? Hardly ever. And unless you walk to work with your shotgun or hunting rifle, don't tell me you need your weapons for protection. Seven of my relatives and four of my friends have had their houses broken into. One of them, my cousin Judiah, was stabbed when he attempted to attack the burglar. What was he stabbed with? A knife... HIS knife. The burglar had no weapon on his person, and my cousin was stabbed with the very same knife he attacked the burglar with. The burglar WAS NOT charged with assault, or attempted murder, or anything else other than the larceny count. Why? Because he was defending himself. And that, my friends, is a fact. So yes, I'm sorry if I truly offended people as that wasn't my purpose. It was just a statement, and in that fashion I will not retract it... it's something I've said a thousand times and will continue to say until I'm shown a single positive effect that guns have.

Quote: ""From my cold dead hand"... well, if that's what it takes."

- Method Man

I've seen statistics that claim crime is rising because of tightening gun laws, and I've seen statistics that say it's falling. It just depends on whose side of the fence you're standing. I've never seen a statistic from someone biased, and I doubt I ever will, because this is a subject that everyone seems to have an opinion about.

- Matt

"Hell is an Irish Pub where it's St. Patrick's Day all of the time." ~ Christopher, *The Soprano's*
RalphY
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Posted: 17th Apr 2005 05:54
Quote: "give me one good example of a positive thing that ever happened thanks to guns"


The invention of computers spawned from war, so guns... ?

Jimmy
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Posted: 17th Apr 2005 06:07
Computers are bad.

They turn kids in to homicidal robots.

Matt Rock
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Posted: 17th Apr 2005 08:06 Edited at: 17th Apr 2005 08:08
Quote: "The invention of computers spawned from war, so guns..."


Computers were invented by Konrad Zuse in 1936 to help him with lengthy engineering calculations. Most militaries looked at Computers as big silly machines with no practical use, until Edwin Link came along, which I'll get to in a minute. Their first widespread use was when IBM (international business machines) invented a now-archaic version of an electronic cash register. Computers first started to get involved with the war effort when Edwin Link, the inventor of the simulator, found applications for combat pilots. I know this stuff because my city, Binghamton New York, is home to both IBM's first office and Edwin Link (plus Rod Serling, the inventor of the Twilight Zone... something useful if you're ever on a TV game show, hehe). Computers were not invented for war, although they've obviously helped the progress of military invention.

- Matt

"Hell is an Irish Pub where it's St. Patrick's Day all of the time." ~ Christopher, *The Soprano's*
Jeku
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Posted: 17th Apr 2005 08:45 Edited at: 17th Apr 2005 08:49
Quote: "new bad guys won't get guns"


The same way new drug addicts won't get heroin? They banned heroin, didn't they? Then tell me what the black market is?

Just because a country declares itself "gun-free" (with much tree hugging and frolicking, no doubt) does not mean the other nations in the world will give a lick.

Quote: "because if the nazi's didn't have guns in the first place WWII wouldn't have happened."


Well in that case we might as well go even further back. If the Chinese didn't invent gunpowder, then they'd be shooting arrows. But let's go even further back then that. Or let's go back to the metal manufacturers who manufactured parts for tanks. A drunk driver in my town ran over two kids and drove away. Maybe we should look at banning vehicles? Don't listen to those car nuts, they're all the same.

You *do* know that Hitler was pro gun-control, right? Yet they still had guns. You *can't* get rid of them... PERIOD. The black market exists by selling illegal goods.

And your history of computers doesn't go far back enough. It's debateable Zuse was the first computer pioneer, as that's just like saying Nolan Bushnell (founder of Atari) is the inventor of the videogame.


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Jeku
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Posted: 17th Apr 2005 08:48
Sorry for the double post, but

Quote: "One of them, my cousin Judiah, was stabbed when he attempted to attack the burglar. What was he stabbed with? A knife... HIS knife. The burglar had no weapon on his person, and my cousin was stabbed with the very same knife he attacked the burglar with."


So you think phoning the police and waiting 10 minutes for them to arrive would have saved him from getting stabbed? Listen, I don't *care* if I get charged and go to jail for shooting a burglar. It won't stop me from protecting my wife, my future kids, or myself. I'd rather go to prison than have someone I love get stabbed like your cousin. (is he okay by the way?)


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billy the kid
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Posted: 17th Apr 2005 08:53
Quote: "So you think phoning the police and waiting 10 minutes for them to arrive would have saved him from getting stabbed?"


It may have. His cousin was stabbed with the knife he used to attack the burglar. As in the burglar took the knife away and stabbed him. At least that is my interpretation of what Matt said. Now yes, maybe the burglar would have still stabbed him if he found him in the house. But no one can know that for sure.
Ian T
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Posted: 17th Apr 2005 09:31
Quote: "And don't say "Well, we killed the Nazi's," because if the nazi's didn't have guns in the first place WWII wouldn't have happened."


That's got to be the single most backwards, ridiculous statement ever made. How the hell would American pacifism prevent Germany from making guns? The whole world isn't going to suddenly be sunlight and light because we stop defending ourselves. If the good people stop taking a stand, the bad people don't put their weapons down-- they win. That's how the world works.

Jeku
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Posted: 17th Apr 2005 12:31
Quote: "Now yes, maybe the burglar would have still stabbed him if he found him in the house."


Well I don't know how you were raised, but I was raised to protect my family the best way I could. Waiting to see whether a burglar decides to harm my family or myself does not seem logical, especially for a programmer (which I assume you are as you are a member of this forum). But whatever floats your boat. Who knows, maybe the burglar would rather just hang out and drink tea with you?


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Benjamin
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Posted: 17th Apr 2005 12:34
I totally agree with Jeku.


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billy the kid
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Posted: 17th Apr 2005 12:44 Edited at: 17th Apr 2005 16:13
Jeku - Like everything else, it depends on the situation. It MAY have been better if his cousin and family (though it doesnt say his cousin had a family) just hid, and maybe not. You dont know the details nor do I. There is no absolute right or wrong for this situation especially given the details arent known. That is the logic of a true programmer.

P.S. I just threw in the programmer crap because you felt it necessary to put it your post. I think most programmers would actually pee their pants and faint. lol

EDIT:
I was raised to use my head in all situations so I didnt get myself or loved ones hurt. That could mean fighting, running, hiding, calling for help, or a combination.
Matt Rock
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Posted: 17th Apr 2005 19:15 Edited at: 17th Apr 2005 19:16
Quote: "You *do* know that Hitler was pro gun-control, right?"


Hitler wasn't really pro- gun control, he was just avidly against non-party citizens from owning guns, or weapons of any kind.

How can you protect your family while you're off in prison? Did you ever watch the show Oz? If so, remember what happened to Beecher? That in itself would deter me from shooting someone.

My cousin is fine, and he didn't have a family... he was still in college. But it certainly kept him from acheiving his dreams, which is the saddest part of the story: he wanted to tryout for the olympics as a track star, but missed his opportunity because he was in the hospital. Sucks, but what can you do. To make a long story short, he was asleep, was woken up when the burglar broke the door's lock in the kitchen, he ran in, saw a guy, grabbed a knife, the rest is history.

The burglar had a history of breaking-and-entering and a few car thefts, but no violent crimes. Because he was hardly slapped on the wrists, my family made sure they found out his criminal history in case he was a screwball who'd come after Judiah (my cousin) again. The burglar was so petrified after stabbing him, he actually called the police himself, from a pay phone several blocks away. He was arrested a few weeks later, and almost a year later at the trial when asked about the stabbing his comment was "I saw some big black guy coming at me with a knife." He was charged with a few larceny charges, but nothing in lieu of the attempted murder. Go figure.

I think we're sort of beating this debate dead, the gun control thing I mean. All of us have our own opinions, none of us will respect anyone elses opinions That's how it seems to always go on here. So here's something new to argue about: I just heard from a friend of mine that the President said something about "the evils of video games" and is expected to join the anti-gaming debate with Hilary. Any comments on that? (waits patiently for a two- paragraph Mouse reply )

- Matt

PS - Thanks for your concern about my cousin, by the way

"Hell is an Irish Pub where it's St. Patrick's Day all of the time." ~ Christopher, *The Soprano's*
RalphY
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Posted: 18th Apr 2005 02:03
@Matt Rock: When I mentioned computers I was referring to the one designed by Tom Kilburn (I think – afraid we beat you yanks to it ) during WW2... an English invention I believe - was on a program by that guy from Top Gear (forget his name), anyway he was going through important inventions, wish I could remember what it was he was saying now. Anyhoo the point that I was trying to make is that, true computers and many other inventions weren’t originally created by the military or due to war, but there development sure has been sped up by things like war. Think of it like a catalyst.

I'll leave now...

Ian T
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Posted: 18th Apr 2005 02:04 Edited at: 18th Apr 2005 02:05
Quote: "I just heard from a friend of mine that the President said something about "the evils of video games" and is expected to join the anti-gaming debate with Hilary. Any comments on that? (waits patiently for a two- paragraph Mouse reply )"


I heard from what I consider to be a moderatly reliable source that Bush enjoys video games and plays them for an hour or two on weekends.

I guess we'll see.


I'd also like to thank everyone involved in the gun debate (including me, I just rock ) for not turning it into a flamefest

bitJericho
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Posted: 18th Apr 2005 08:14
Quote: "A knife... HIS knife. The burglar had no weapon on his person, and my cousin was stabbed with the very same knife he attacked the burglar with. "


So if your cousin had a nice little GUN I'm sure the burgler woulda backed his arse out.. you can't steal a weapon from somebody when they're across the room


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Ian T
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Posted: 18th Apr 2005 08:53 Edited at: 18th Apr 2005 08:53
Especially if you've got a bullet in your leg, and are halfway across the room

Benjamin
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Posted: 18th Apr 2005 09:26
And also if you haven't got any legs.


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Ian T
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Posted: 18th Apr 2005 09:43
Or if there was a massive steel barricade in the middle of the room staggered with gun turrets and grenade launchers.

Matt Rock
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Posted: 18th Apr 2005 10:15 Edited at: 18th Apr 2005 10:17
Quote: "So if your cousin had a nice little GUN I'm sure the burgler woulda backed his arse out"


Yeah, true, he wouldn't have been stabbed by a knife, but he probably would have been stabbed by something else while he was in prison (hyuck hyuck). What good are your valuables when you're locked up? And another thing, my cousin was sued... someone looking over my shoulder reminded me to mention that. The burglar lost the case, but still, if you're attacked by someone you can sue, no matter whose house your robbing. I'm not really saying that in support of my anti-gun opinion, just making a point about "the system" I suppose.

I dunno Mouse, that's just what I heard, about the president. According to my friend Amber, the Prez is going to join the anti-violent games debate... something she picked up from the news or something. I can't imagine Bush playing video games... if he gets ticked off at Big Smoke, does he order the Coalition to bomb Los Santos? And I bet I can guess how he beats Civilization III What sort of games do you think Bush plays? That's a question for everyone, hehe.

And btw, here-here! My first thread labeled as flamebait and no one flamed... rock on Perhaps there's hope for peace in our little community yet! (This is the part where everyone takes turns flaming me until I'm burnt to a crisp)

- Matt

EDIT: My apologies if my "prison love" joke offended anyone... unless of course you'd assumed I meant "shanked." In which case, um, yeah, I meant shanked

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Ian T
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Posted: 18th Apr 2005 10:22
Quote: "
Yeah, true, he wouldn't have been stabbed by a knife, but he probably would have been stabbed by something else while he was in prison (hyuck hyuck)."


Last I checked the US wasn't quite insane enough yet to send someone to prison for using a firearm to defend themselves .

Quote: "What sort of games do you think Bush plays? That's a question for everyone, hehe."


Honestly? E-rated racing and fighting games-- fun but simple stuff that doesn't take a lot of time. Besides, being from Texas, he probably follows Nascar.

I can't believe I just spent time thinking about that

Jeku
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Posted: 18th Apr 2005 13:29
Quote: "What sort of games do you think Bush plays?"


http://www.gamespot.com/pc/strategy/politicalmachine/review.html so he can relive beating Kerry in the election... again and again

Either that or Command and Conquer.


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Matt Rock
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Posted: 18th Apr 2005 20:24
Well mouse, if they don't shoot at you first, you go to prison no matter what they stole from you or did to you prior. That's the point I was trying to make anyway

We need to find a picture of Bush playing Tekken... I wonder what he acts like if he loses

Question, off topic: Have any of you had any problems ordering stuff from TGC? I dropped almost $400 this past weekend on software and Chris Bamber sent me an e-mail a short bit ago telling me there was authenticity problems he said this happens a lot, but we didn't have a problem before. Just curious.

- Matt

"Hell is an Irish Pub where it's St. Patrick's Day all of the time." ~ Christopher, *The Soprano's*
bitJericho
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Posted: 18th Apr 2005 23:08
Quote: "And I bet I can guess how he beats Civilization III "


Why would he play Civ 3? The man's living it!

Quote: "Well mouse, if they don't shoot at you first, you go to prison no matter what they stole from you or did to you prior. That's the point I was trying to make anyway "


I dunno where you've heard this but it simply is not true.. If you've probably cause then you're fine..


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Ian T
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Posted: 19th Apr 2005 00:25
Isn't true, shouldn't be true, never has been true.

I knew a man who had shot a burglar when the latter entered his shop and pointed a (loaded) gun at his wife-- no charges were ever filed.

And if you ask me that's how it should be

billy the kid
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Posted: 19th Apr 2005 00:32
I think the horse died days ago.

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