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Geek Culture / Sex (& Violence) in Games rant

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The 1nteger
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Posted: 19th Apr 2005 23:39
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This rant or opinion came about from the following post so please feel free to read it for background

http://www.garagegames.com/mg/forums/result.thread.php?qt=18194

and i thought it might be interesting to give some food for thought regrading sex and violence in games and a few things for people to think about, consider and discuss.

It comes in two parts, but it's well worth the read in my opiney , enjoy

Part 1/2

Sex will often bring up ethics and morals more then the standard violence where exposed to everyday.

But then again, a kid can't buy a porn mag (legally) but they can happily buy a paper for a fraction of the price and see a womans mah-jong's in the same way?

So i don't know if sex gets that real a hard deal in terms of ethics and morals in these times.

But none the less, there is a lot of hypocrisy when it comes to violence and sex.

The funny thing is, people are always quick to say that good causes, charity events and educational things have a positive affect on people, but when it comes to violence/sex or general commercial endevours, it's nothing to do with them, it can't have a negative effect, it's up to the parents to be parents and not the adults making the stuff blah, blah, blah. i also find this hypocritical, so i guess it works both ways! The ways of the world are generally hypocritical, that's why i say be 'in the world' and 'not of it'

Regarding porn of any form as a medium (games, mags, videos etc), it's not something i try to watch or advacate. Why not, because i'm a nun, no, because i'm really feminst chick pretending to be a male, nop

just because i wouldn't want my little sis (10 years old now, getting big fast) exposed to it or doing it as a so-called career, nor my mum, older sister, younger cousins, aunties or any female i know and love.

In this respect, i therefore can't enjoy and/or represent it just because it's (hopefully) people i don't know and love, as i would be the hypocrite i mentioned above, no?

Also, my goal (or one of them) is to make a fairer playing field and have more females in gaming, and research as well as chats with women i've had shows that these kind of fhm content in game, as well as other similar content, puts other females off games.

I think women have something special to open & reveal for the industry. A new perspective on an overly male industry that we haven't/don't see yet.

Leroy Frederick - Director / Lead Designer - ETERNAL SYNDROME™ ONLINE: www.ETERNALSYNDROME.com ETERNAL SYNDROME™ - “Play Your Emagination!”™
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The 1nteger
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Posted: 19th Apr 2005 23:40
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Part 2/2

Regarding adult games, speaking from a (good for the industry) standpoint (although there are others) if any1´s been reading/noticed all the uproar games (past & present) like gta, postal, manhunt etc has caused, i´ll goals should be providing gameplay intensive games (while they can challenge in their subject) that don´t provide blatant ammunition to the press/media to damage the game industry that we love´s image.

Forget the age censorship/consent stuff, for example, it is well documented by the media (to marketing level, at least in the UK) that kids easily get games like gta3+ in the major stores without id or checks, they even showed a documentary where half a whole primary school had owned/ played manhunt/gta.

But let me put this to you, what i´ve come to accept as far as morals and ethics go, and creating multimedia of any kind,

NO KIND OF CENSORSHIP will work in terms of keeping it out the hands of all people under 18, so if you want to/are selling 18+ content, you might as will give it to one 14 year old directly, because i can promise you at least 1 person will get their hands on it whether it was your intention or not, and for some, that´s too much.

Basicially, unless you are willing to watch a porn movie with any (even 1) 14 year old or borrow them a porn movie, or directly sell them one, you can´t honestly say you can happily make one to sell for adults only. This goes for senseless violence of (virtual) human beings also.

So for me, i will only make things that i can happily have girls, boys, men & women play and/or view. It doesn´t mean i´m stuck with making mario games and cute platformers, it just means (for me personally), i don´t have to worry about lawsuits, morals and ethics of my media.

I don´t provide ammunition for people/press and i give parents/adults ´piece of
mind´ regarding their kids and their upbringing.

If you make something, and you have to worry about the ethics and morals (unless based on life/a true story/dealing with racism/sexism or a game where your a prositute trying to get out that life etc) your problay doing something wrong in the first place

Besides, it´s more challenging to do a game that breaks the entertainment industry showbiz mold of sex and violence sells, select naked chick and kill, kill, kill! I remember a hollywood industry rep telling a journalist that there´s a difference between ´guns, and glamourious guns´, what? Oh, so as long as your gun has versace all other it, feel free to kill people with it, otherwise you bad taste is wrong?

Where already becoming more & more like the film industry (realistic this, visual that), who in-turn are becoming more & more like the porn industry (a film recently given general release that has it´s actress giving real oral sex, i want say the name, that would be free marketing ).

I´m not trying to tell any1 what to do some much, or turn every1´s attitude in one post, but i think you have to accept that you can´t sell fire without seeing the smoke, kids will, kids have, kids do and kids are getting their hands on and exposed to unsuitable content, some even subject to it (child porn etc).

So in conclusion, if you want to get your message/product to as much people as possibly (it's called multimedia), you have to face the fact that you can and will affect people positively or negatively. So more then others, and you can't have 100% control of where and who the message get's to if you want to reach as many people as possible (as is the case with entertainment/showbiz), therefore all we can do is send out a positive (even if strong or real) message that when it does (and it will, believe me) get to a child, it's a good one!

Because, we don't need to have kids to be parenting kids, we don't need to be with are kids for them to learn and be influenced. We have a responsibility not just as game/would be game developers, musicians, actors, filmakers, writers or even as adults, but as (so-called) human beings!

Leroy Frederick - Director / Lead Designer - ETERNAL SYNDROME™ ONLINE: www.ETERNALSYNDROME.com ETERNAL SYNDROME™ - “Play Your Emagination!”™
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Hawkeye
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Posted: 20th Apr 2005 00:31
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My thoughts exactly I once got incensed over a newspaper article that failed to present a clear minded view on the subject and wrote a 2 page essay basicly saying just what you did.

I agree %100 with you mate. and I wholeheartadly wish there were more people like you in the game industry

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The 1nteger
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Posted: 20th Apr 2005 01:09
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Thanks Hawkeye

Leroy Frederick - Director / Lead Designer - ETERNAL SYNDROME™ ONLINE: www.ETERNALSYNDROME.com ETERNAL SYNDROME™ - “Play Your Emagination!”™
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Peter H
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Posted: 20th Apr 2005 01:24 Edited at: 20th Apr 2005 01:25
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Yeah, i agree with you to...

I can accept some violence in games...(like say cow abductor...) but games like...oh...Hitman, Manhunt...ect are just gross

and as far as the whole "hey let's put some naked chics in here so we can get some more sales" ...well...let's just say that's one of the few things that make me feel like using violence to using violence to slap some sence into the game developers...(if that didn't make sence to you, no i don't at all agree with doing such things) Creating models (or textures) that aren't exactly "nude" but still scantily clad, falls into the same category for me...

"We make the worst games in the universe."

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The 1nteger
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Posted: 20th Apr 2005 03:47 Edited at: 20th Apr 2005 03:47
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Thanks Peter_, cause these guys aren't getting me at all!
http://www.gamedev.net/community/forums/topic.asp?topic_id=314396

In fact, they seem more worried about spellings, thesis and structure???

WARNING, If you plan to reply to the above or any post in gamedev.net, make sure your spellings, structure and grammer are A** perfect (their mad about that @ gamedev.net!?)

Leroy Frederick - Director / Lead Designer - ETERNAL SYNDROME™ ONLINE: www.ETERNALSYNDROME.com ETERNAL SYNDROME™ - “Play Your Emagination!”™
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Ron Erickson
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Posted: 20th Apr 2005 04:24
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I didn't read your links, but basicly I disagree with you.

I have three kids of my own. The problem is LAZY parenting, not the media. Adults use video game systems and TV's as babysitters for their kids. That is where the problem is. Parents just aren't involved in their kids lives. Instead of being influenced by parents that are to busy for them, kids are influenced by "bad" media. When something goes sour, those same parents turn against their babysitting toys. It is the "games" fault, right? After all, they didn't learn those "bad" things from their parents. How could they? The parents weren't around to teach them those "bad" things.

Give me a break. If you want to talk about being responsible, be involved as a parent. When my kids are old enough, I'll be playing "bad" games like GTA and Hitman with them. There is nothing wrong with them in the context of what they are supposed to be: FUN. Not a "keep my kids busy" tool.

WOLF

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The 1nteger
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Posted: 20th Apr 2005 05:19 Edited at: 20th Apr 2005 05:21
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@ WOLF: I agree about it being the responsiblity of parents also, there are far too many parents that don't know much about what their kids are viewing/playing but i think's it's ridiclous to say it's "not the media", sure it's not all the media, but of course it adds to it. Maybe even 50/50 (you can't be everywhere your childs at). But it's not realistic to say the media have nothing to do with it.

If TV can be used to educate and charity/fund raising events can be used to benefit and influnce, if celebrities can be used to sell things because of the influence and status as role models (whether they like it or not) and following, if the usa army are wise enougth to figure out they can get recruits and teach about the army though a game, then how can negative media not affect kids negatively.

E.g. the 'america's army' game without the reason or ethics for killing (whether you agree with their reasons or ethics is another subject).

Of course, their will of being many other factors leading to kids doing crimes/bad things, but isn't it media (people/adults) responsiblity as parents/pontential/future parents to make life easier/aid parents in our childrens and future adults upbringing?

Leroy Frederick - Director / Lead Designer - ETERNAL SYNDROME™ ONLINE: www.ETERNALSYNDROME.com ETERNAL SYNDROME™ - “Play Your Emagination!”™
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Hawkeye
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Posted: 20th Apr 2005 05:19 Edited at: 20th Apr 2005 05:21
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Ya know wolfy that's gotta be the most enlightened parental view on the subject I've heard in a long time. It's a game for crying out loud.

BUT I'm never going to play gta3 or postal. Why? Because it gloryfies violence in a REALISTIC manner. Now take the Jetz series (Jetz4 being my fav). You're this dude with a jetpack who goes around with unbelieably powerful weapons (chainsaw, proton grenades, etc.) trying to complete (very hard) missions. The destruction that comes out of that is part of the game, and besides it's not realistic.

Take, on the other hand, Madness Combat. I used to play that all the time, but now.. nah. I'd rather play something else. Why? because I got tired of the endless and quite realistic violence. http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v474/Hawkeye73/madness_combat.jpg

The movies I can forgive tho--because they're not as realistic (whoever heard of jumpuing backwards to avoid a Stega? ) I watch the JoeZombie flash vids all the time--sure there's some (moderately) bad language, some violence, but IT'S FUNNY AS H***! You just gotta hear the cop say "their brains. are gone." in this aweful speech simulation, and the awesome neo-esque actions of joe rombie (now zombiefied)


Violence is OK with me. But if it gets too main-stream in the game I'll quit playing it. Sex is a diffrent matter--that is NOT OK WITH ME IN THE LEAST BIT!!!!!1!!1111 The way I consider it, imagine if that was your sister you see someone banging on or whatever. How'd you feel? yes?

Pretty p***ed off I'd imagine.

Besides, it's unethical. M rated games are going to fall in underage hands. Take, for example, my big brother (age 40 I'm 15, if you can belive it)'s youngest son. Sitting there, playing Halo 2 without a care in the world. I personaly don't really have a serious problem with it, but think about it.

6 year old.

Playing a M rated game.

Halo 2 is rated M, but it's not THAT gorey (especialy when it's played on a low-res TV I mean com'on you can't even see your ammo bar)

Postal 2, if my memory serves me right, is also rated M (it might be AO, I'm not sure, but I don't think so)

Manhunt is rated M.

gta3 is rated M.

Pretty scarey, eh?





That's all I have to say for now


edit:
Quote: "there are far too many parents that don't know much about what their kids are viewing/playing"

D*** stright. I played DOOM for a while back when I was, oh, 13 I think. Scared the pants off of me, deleted it stright away. But mom never knew

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Ron Erickson
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Posted: 20th Apr 2005 06:23
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Censorship is NOT the answer.

Quote: "(you can't be everywhere your childs at)"

I understand that. I embrace it. If I instill the morals in my child that he needs, then a violent game will not effect him negatively. It can, in fact, be an outlet for him. If I play those games with him and he understands that it is "just a game" then he will be well enough adjusted to handle seeing similar things at his friends house. Don't get me wrong, I'm not going to play GTA with my 4 year old. There is a time and a place for everything.

In a sense, I DO understand what you are saying. I could be the best parent in the world and my kid could have no problem with seeing things like that. I can't control what other parents and their kids are doing though and that can, in fact, be a problem. Still, the ROOT of the problem is the way our society raises their children today. It's not content that we are exposed to. That is a cop out. It's an easier answer than the shock and horror of actually spending some time with your children and being involved in what they are interested in.

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Briere
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Posted: 20th Apr 2005 06:24
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a mon avis,

sex in games = no way.

violence= hell yes!

besides if we took away volilence, like 75% of the market for games would be banned lol.
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Phaelax
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Posted: 20th Apr 2005 06:59
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Quote: "Sex (& Violence) in Games"

you can never have enough!

We can show rated R movies of ppl getting bloody arms ripped off at the sockets, but we show some pixelated blood in a game and ppl get concerned. My thoughts are, if you don't like the graphics, don't play it. If you can't comprehend the difference between video games and reality, you're a lost cause anyway. Like Wolf said, its lazy parenting. When I grew up, my mom would turn the tv off and kick me outside if I watched too much. I wasn't even allowed to own a video game system. (except the intellivision system(its like atari))

Quote: " imagine if that was your sister you see someone banging on or whatever. How'd you feel? "

oh, he'd be a dead man.

But for the same reason I don't think like that is the same reason I can laugh at Amityville Horror when the lady takes an axe to the gut, I realize it's not real. I can differentiate between fantasy and reality.

grr, i have to stop there. another college just called me and i have to leave for school now anyway. blah

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The 1nteger
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Posted: 20th Apr 2005 07:19
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@WOLF:
You make some good points, but don't underestimate game/content/media influence

@Fixxer:
I don't think any1's saying remove all violence from games, just that theres a difference between 'america's army with objectives, reason and violence' and 'america's army with just violence' (again, using that game as a reference to the admission of influence that media can have by the army themselves )

It's not about intention (i'll make this explicit game, and hopefully, fingers crossed, some kid will kill somebody), it's about translation (how their mind is, and what it means in the indiviudals mind) + end result (what they do with the translated information) in my opinney.

Leroy Frederick - Director / Lead Designer - ETERNAL SYNDROME™ ONLINE: www.ETERNALSYNDROME.com ETERNAL SYNDROME™ - “Play Your Emagination!”™
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Eric T
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Posted: 20th Apr 2005 07:43 Edited at: 20th Apr 2005 07:53
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I say we should have more violence in video games. Why stop there though... thats too easy. More realistic violence in video games... thats what I am talkin bout!

And if some middle class kid decides to go ape sh*t and kill 14 kids and a clown by chainsawing them in the way they saw Vercetti do in Vice City, lets not blame the industry. blame the parents for not watching their children like they should be.

Edit: And the parents should be punished, not the kid. Well, maybe a spanking for the kid.

Edit2: Thanks go to my friend who shall remain anonymous for this:

Quote: "I think we should cencor words like "morals" and phrases like "violence in games causes violence in the real world" by placing a picture of a naked woman in front of the person's mouth who says it

and replace the beep with "S***"

or "F***"

or "THIS PERSON IS A PRETENTIOUS a******""


Sigs blow.
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Ron Erickson
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Posted: 20th Apr 2005 08:09 Edited at: 20th Apr 2005 08:12
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You can look at it like fighting a disease. What parents are doing is not providing their children with a proper imune system. There are 2 solutions to the problem. I believe you should take the maybe harder road and povide your kids with a good imune system. Or, we could do as you suggest and all live in a bubble.

You know, I can't stand shows like Power Rangers. My kids love them. I have a couple of choices. The first is not allow them to watch the shows. They are violent after all. The second choice is to let them watch them. Who cares, they are happy and I can get some stuff in my all so busy life done. The third choice is to suck it up and watch it with them. While I don't enjoy the shows and it is a pain is the butt for me, it is the BEST option for my kids. Either way, they will just end up watching it at a cousin or a friends house. The last option gives them the "immune system" that they need to take it for what it is: Fun!
The hard road can suck sometimes, but it pays off in the end.

WOLF

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Ace Of Spades
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Posted: 20th Apr 2005 08:41
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Games and Sex
Games and Violence
Games and Homophobic Axe Murdering Prostitutes

Games are simply games, nothing more. People who view games as a tool of evil, or say they are there to inspire violence, are complete morons. Games are for fun, for pleasure. I say, sit your 3 year old kid down with a violent, gory, blood shooting, video game involving sex-addicted prostitutes. If the kid thinks its "icky" or "gross" then the kid will avoid it, if the kid thinks "awesome!" then just let him enjoy it. No harm will come to him/her for playing a game seen as "adult only". In fact, there is very little evidence supporting the fact that games have ANY impact on kids. More violent behavior comes from kids who were spanked when they were little than from kids who played "kill the bad guy and watch his blood spill" type of games.
I understand the fact that some parents will refuse to accept video games other than asteriods and pacman, but these parents haven't figured out that times have changed and kids deserve the right to explore these new games on their own. If you have a five year old kid who likes to watch naked women on tv, then hell, encourage him...it's better than watching him go in the other direction.

GAMES = GAMES
SEX GAMES = GAMES
VIOLENT GAMES = GAMES
GAMES = FUN
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BearCDPOLD
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Posted: 20th Apr 2005 10:13
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I'm with Wolf on this.

Kids need guidance, not censorship. I love playing Grand Theft Auto, love Painkiller, can't find Postal/2 anywhere unfortunately, but the fact is I play these games but because my folks raised me with proper values I'm more docile than people I know who don't even play games.

And of course, boobies are not for little kids. My folks only started letting me watch certain 'R' flicks once I got to be 8-10 years old.


That said, in the event that I pursue a career in game development, there is a good chance I will not make these types of games. Maybe something with the amount of violence mounting to HalfLife or similar games, but not much more than that, simply because that's not what gets my creative juices flowing. Go ahead and let other people make this stuff, cover the little ones' eyes when appropriate, and we'll all live together peaceably.

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Flindiana Jones
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Posted: 20th Apr 2005 11:25
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well...i really agree with the 1nteger, the amount of adult material out there is disgusting. while yes, cencorship is the primarily the parents job, it is hard for the parent to be every where. for instance, my mom totally freaks out about gore in games. so, no FPS for me. except of course at my friends houses, where i can play them till i collapse. (I dont though...that would be rude.)
so, my conclusion: parents cencorship is the best, but there should be some sort of standards to keep this stuff out of the hands of your kids and/or their kids.

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Ian T
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Posted: 20th Apr 2005 13:52
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Parents have a responsibility that's being ignored. On the other hand, that does not excuse the fact that PR companies are allowed to market extremely adult material to children (in the US)-- there is simply no excuse for that, and as has been mentioned before, the parents cannot be there all the time.


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BearCDPOLD
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Posted: 20th Apr 2005 14:20
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Perhaps though with proper teachings it wouldn't matter if the kid was exposed to it while the parent wasn't there. Suppose the kid does what his parents tell him (because they know how to parent him properly) and asks them about such and such an ad he saw that day. Of course things like that will alter kids' perceptions on things, but if parents are instilling values at an early age there will be less of a chance of the offending piece of marketing having a major effect on the kid.

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Ian T
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Posted: 20th Apr 2005 14:41
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Yes-- and if children are taught not to talk to strangers they are less likely to disappear, but does that make stalking them any more acceptable?


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BearCDPOLD
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Posted: 20th Apr 2005 15:06
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No, because you can physically force a child unwillingly into your car.
Media affecting children is a completely psychological process.

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Ron Erickson
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Posted: 20th Apr 2005 17:51 Edited at: 20th Apr 2005 17:52
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Companies should be responsible and not market adult material to children. Im with Mouse on that. The answer is to enforce some of the rules and guidelines that are already existing. Maybe even make a few more along those lines. Censorship are NOT the solution.
Video games are taking the heat these days because they are still relatively new and generaly not played by our peers that write and enforce our laws. It wasn't too long ago that listening to the Beatles was ruining the world OR playing dungeons and dragons would turn you into a murdering devil worshiper. The peers of those eras didn't understand the media and it was an easy "blame" for them. That is why movies don't generaly take the same heat as games do. They could be just as violent but the media is understood and embraced by our peers. That makes it ok. Wait a few more years. Video games will be just as ok.

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The 1nteger
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Posted: 20th Apr 2005 21:54
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@WOLF: I can't remember it fully, but there was a dude that killed his friends/member of family because he believed that a character from dungeons & dragons was telling him to kill 'em

@All:

Most of the mainstream media know little, if any, about the games industry other then the money it´s making or rockstar (insert controversial game here) and they act like their warning parents, but a lot of time their just giving them (devs/publishers in question) free marketing.

It's true that some people shift blame or look for others to look after them and their affairs too often.

One point I wanna make though is it´s a nonsense to do 18+ stuff and say that your concerned about kids and parents (which you obviously have to be to some degree, otherwise you wouldn´t put/have to put age and warnings of any kind)

You can´t do 18+ and say how can i stop kids from getting it (if they want it, they always will get). Your either bothered (and if you are, the only real way of making sure is don´t make/sell em) or not, in which case fine, but i don´t think you can be both.

Other then that (i know many others don´t agree) i believe that while my first paragraph is true, it is my responsibility as much as parents or government or anyone to react positively to what people are concerned with (you have to decipher lack of knowledge, media hype or general real concern) and make life a little bit easier. It´s a cop out and uncool to do a corporate and say "not our problem"

I get the picture that most developers/publishers/gamers don´t see it as their problem and will do people no favours other then age/warnings (avoid lawsuits and legal hassle), fair enougth, i think parents should understand this, and hopefully be a bit more careful/smarter about what they let their kids obtain/view.

I guess i´ll (and a few others) will be breaking the "your problem, not mine"/corporate mold alone in the minority (i´ve read articles of other developers that agree with my view, and are thinking about what they make, assuming that it will get in kids hands, regardless of their intention/intended audience), but a worthwhile challenge in my opinney .

Leroy Frederick - Director / Lead Designer - ETERNAL SYNDROME™ ONLINE: www.ETERNALSYNDROME.com ETERNAL SYNDROME™ - “Play Your Emagination!”™
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Ron Erickson
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Posted: 20th Apr 2005 22:58
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Quote: "@WOLF: I can't remember it fully, but there was a dude that killed his friends/member of family because he believed that a character from dungeons & dragons was telling him to kill 'em"


Maybe, just maybe, the guy was crazy to begin with. Do you really think playing a game of D&D pushed him over the edge? It is the same with video games. Maybe in some cases it is the straw that breaks the camels back. Just because it is the FINAL straw does not mean that it the the root source of the weight. There is a BIGGER underlying problem that needs to be taken care of.
Say for instance they ban all violence in video games. I would be willing to bet that the drop off in teen violence would be insignificant. The blame would be shifted to something else. Movies? TV shows? Music? Something else would become the new target. Are you going to ban that too?
If you want to look at the real issues that are causing our kids to become aggressive, stressed and less moral, start at home. Over the years look at the percentages of single parent homes OR percentages of kids in daycare that maybe see their parents for 2 to 3 hours per day (and that is time together NOT time actually well spent together). We are letting society, media and businesses raise our children. Obviously, those things are not doing a good job. So we must hold them accountable, right? Since those things are raising our kids, it is their fault, right?
I say no. If you want to help kids, just simply spend time with them. Don't blame others for doing a poor job of something that you are responsible for.

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BatVink
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Posted: 20th Apr 2005 23:29
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1. Parents should be responsible. But parents don't go to school, or kids clubs, or friends houses. My 8 year old has learned far more than I would want him to have to deal with at his age from older kids in the playground, and from friends with older siblings.

You can't let kids play violent/sexual games without teaching them social and moral responsibilities first. If a 16 year old can play GTA without simulating it, but then lets his 10 year old brother play it, he is just as immature and irresponsible.

2. Personally, I don't make games with violence or weapons. And I have no end of ideas, I'm not limited by my beliefs. I entered the Alienware competition, my game involved sapping energy from the alien spaceship until it was rendered inoperable. I entered the last compo, and chose Snake. The snake "dazed" itself, which looks better in cartoon format than death. I have 2 more projects now, neither of them involve death, sex, guns or violence.

Violence, in my opinion, is the easy option.

There are plenty of very successful alternatives:

The Sims
Sim City
Rollercoaster Tycoon etc...
Racing games

And if you like war games, there are plenty of RTS style games that avoid the gore and glory, and far enough removed from real-life to be a game rather than a simulation of reality.

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Hawkeye
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Posted: 21st Apr 2005 00:02
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Quote: "far enough removed from real-life to be a game rather than a simulation of reality"

Which is why Liero on %500 blood is laughable It's just halirious to see the screen covered in blood disprotinate to the worm.

worm:
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bleeding worm::
|___
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........................... .............
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.................................... ............
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...............................................

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The 1nteger
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Posted: 21st Apr 2005 00:19
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@WOLF:
Don't get me wrong, i'm not saying that he was/wasn't crazy to begin with, or that other influences didn't affect him (friends, parents, tv, food, childhood etc), but the point is you can't be sure either way (not that i consider d&d a menace to society).

For the best part, i agree with you that good parenting shouldn't be underestimated, but still, it doesn't look good when something bad happens (games/films whatever form of media) and there's a genuine possibility an entertainment product (or otherwise) influence/instigated it, and peeps do a corporate and say "This was intened for adults, i play these games everyday, and i've yet to kill anyone, blame the parents, i'm not in their household", because while the parent might of been dumb/irresponsible to think all games are mario or still just kids stuff, people still need to be providing things that parents have to warn them about in the first place.

And yes, i know and agree you can't keep kids in a bubble, but still, society and every adult is responsible to some degree in such cases.

@BatVink:
Couldn't agree more if i said it myself

@Mouse:
"Yes-- and if children are taught not to talk to strangers they are less likely to disappear, but does that make stalking them any more acceptable?"

lol

@All: There seems to be 2 differect views on this.

1. It's the parents responsibility, simple as.
2. It's the parents and game devs, movies, music, publishers, stores & media responsibility

The problem is parents can't be everywhere and have varied tastes and views and game devs/publishers/music etc don't wanna compromise or limit creativity/choice/market/money (not neccesarily in that order)

My theory is it's about balance, context and reason. It's not a case of their shouldn't be any violence in games (that's like saying you can't be a (Good) cop when your older), but rather how much your doing, what your doing, why your doing it.

I mean, people can use their imagination, but with visuals in games being the priority more & more, that opportunity is becoming a distant memory

Leroy Frederick - Director / Lead Designer - ETERNAL SYNDROME™ ONLINE: www.ETERNALSYNDROME.com ETERNAL SYNDROME™ - “Play Your Emagination!”™
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Drew Cameron
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Posted: 21st Apr 2005 00:35
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Quote: "I can accept some violence in games...(like say cow abductor...) but games like...oh...Hitman, Manhunt...ect are just gross "


I agree, totally - Manhunt really annoys me because it is a weak game without the violence. Violence should be used only as neccesary.

Anyways, please consider this:

Let's say that violence in video games does cause a handful of deaths from murder etc... (I think that that recent one was because of Manhunt personally - the murder was inspired by the game and the kid was apparently pretty normal anyways) ... it is a small price to pay for the bigger price we'd pay if violence in games were banned. Consider the money lost in the industry if games all became kid friendly - consider companies and brands of games like GTA, shutting down, hardcore gamers becoming depressed, employees and families becoming broke, related suicides, depression in many gamers and people who lost their jobs - it would be a huge dent in a large economy and would affect many people involved and indirectly involved as well.

Cars crash - people die, It is a fact, yet cars are still made.

Games probably cause some murders, but they are candidly insignificant compared to the many people the industry supports.(dev company employees etc... as mentioned above) This industry also provides alot of enjoyment for many people.

My two cents, feel free to challenge it.

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Ron Erickson
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Posted: 21st Apr 2005 01:09
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There are a couple of things that we agree on:
-Media CAN have an influence on people.
-Parents can NOT be with there children 100% of the time.

Because parents can not be with their children 100% of the time, I think it is important as a parent to explore some of the things that your kids will run into WITH THEM. Understanding the influences that your kids are seeing helps to prepare them properly for those influences.
My problem with censorship is where does it stop? Censorship turns into a scapegoat. I GAURUNTEE you that the blame would fall to music or movies simply because there would be no significant change in youth violence. In EVERY single GTA bashing article that I've ever read (or listened to) I've heard the SAME thing: "You get points for killing prostitutes". These people have obviously NEVER played or seen the game. There are plenty of BAD things in the series, yet an exaggeration that is completely untrue is the only comment I ever hear.
The media DOES need to be responsible though. It NEEDS to market things properly. There should be penalties for doing otherwise. Stores should NOT sell M rated games to kids. Why does a Dad hide his porn movies from his kids but let them play games with graphic content in them? Does he let the neighbor kids watch his porn movies? No. Does he let the neighbor kids play M rated games with his own kids while he is no where in sight? Yes. Why?
It isn't a question of censorship. It is a matter of responsibility. THAT is where things need to change.

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Megaton Cat
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Posted: 21st Apr 2005 01:16
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To be completly honest, I've never played a mainstream video game with sex in it.

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The 1nteger
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Posted: 21st Apr 2005 01:26 Edited at: 21st Apr 2005 01:34
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Not making a point here or anything, although feel free to coment on this, but it's interesting looking at the different ESRB ratings http://www.esrb.org/esrbratings_guide.asp , what they classify as what, and it's meanings. But it's pretty clear.

EDIT: The "ESRB Helps Parents Choose the Right Games for Their Families" is interesting too.

(Slighty off topic, but interesting none the less )
Out of interest, do films have a Mature (17) rating and do you think music needs a similar system (they only have that parental advisory thing to my knowledge)?

Leroy Frederick - Director / Lead Designer - ETERNAL SYNDROME™ ONLINE: www.ETERNALSYNDROME.com ETERNAL SYNDROME™ - “Play Your Emagination!”™
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Ron Erickson
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Posted: 21st Apr 2005 01:57
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Quote: "But it's pretty clear."

I agree.

Films do have a mature rating.
G - All ages admitted.
PG - Some material may not be suitable for children.
PG13 - Some material may be inappropriate for children under 13.
R - Under 17 requires accompanying parent or adult guardian.
NC17 - No one 17 and under admitted

Music ONLY has the "Parental Advisory - Explicit Content" warning label.

If we can do a decent job following a rating system for movies, why can't we do it for games?

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Ace Of Spades
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Posted: 21st Apr 2005 05:21
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Quote: "why can't we do it for games?"


Most games(at least in USA) already have a full rating system.

E - Everyone
T - Teen
M - Mature
AO - Adult Only

Those are the only ones I can think of, but there are more.
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Hawkeye
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Posted: 21st Apr 2005 05:44
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Yeah but nobody (i.e. cashiers) enforces them My friend walked in and bought the Diablo 2 battlechest (rated M) and got through no problem. He, I should mention, was 14 at the time.

'Nuf sed.

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Ron Erickson
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Posted: 21st Apr 2005 05:49 Edited at: 21st Apr 2005 05:49
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Quote: "Quote: "why can't we do it for games?"

Most games(at least in USA) already have a full rating system.

E - Everyone
T - Teen
M - Mature
AO - Adult Only

Those are the only ones I can think of, but there are more. "


Quote: "
Yeah but nobody (i.e. cashiers) enforces them My friend walked in and bought the Diablo 2 battlechest (rated M) and got through no problem. He, I should mention, was 14 at the time.

'Nuf sed."



That is what I was referring to. I KNOW games have a rating system. I was replying to the other post. My POINT is why are the rating systems NOT enforced. Read back a couple of posts and you'll see what I meant.

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Ace Of Spades
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Posted: 21st Apr 2005 05:53
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Quote: "
If we can do a decent job following a rating system for movies"


Well I assumed you would believe game system as you believe the movie system. When I was 14,15,16 I got into R rated movies without a problem, anywhere I went. Sure you will find a few people who enforce it...but the movie ratings really aren't any stricter than the games.
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Briere
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Posted: 21st Apr 2005 05:54
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what do u think is worse, a kid playing a crazy kid playing a game with some violence, or a crazy kid getting made fun of in school everday.

there are much more important things to worry about, if you have to worry about something.
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Megaton Cat
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Posted: 21st Apr 2005 05:55 Edited at: 21st Apr 2005 05:58
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Movies have a rating system, but unlike games, no one bothers to enforce them.

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billy the kid
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Posted: 21st Apr 2005 06:46
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You sure about that? In the US, movie ratings are enforced usually. However game and music ratings are not enforced, though more and more stores are enforcing such ratings. Maybe it is different in Canada.
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Dazzag
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Posted: 21st Apr 2005 07:00 Edited at: 21st Apr 2005 07:03
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We enforce it in the UK, but generally people are more laid back once it's out of the shops.

Although you have to love different cultures. Once, while on holiday at a friends in Germany, we went to a video shop. Downstairs was just like UK, but in german. We went upstairs to the the english section. Through an archway there was the adult section. No problem there apart from totally obvious posters on the wall (both inside the area - viewable from our area - and outside) of some of the films. Now in the UK hardcode porn is not allowed to be sold in shops. But this place not only had hardcore porn (not illegal in germany - even the adverts had naked women at 3pm - tops) but the posters were hardcore. ie. there you were looking at the english version of French Kiss (confess I love Meg Ryan and romantic films comedies) and then you notice some poster of a fat bird in a leather outfit giving *ahem* some oral pleasure to some old dude. Erm. Didn't help my friend is a bird. Totally irish sheltered upbringing bird. Talk about embarressing.

Made my excuses (newspaper joke) and went back with French Kiss (Meg Ryan one!!!). Really like Meg...

Oh, and this was like a Blockbusters, not a red light district effort. Heh, been there (Amsterdam), and it is pretty eye opening. Burger King one side, massive porn effort on the other.... Nice market place with usual stuff, tum te tum, oh, hardcore porn by the cheese counter... right.... cheeky postcards.... erm, hardcore postcards... right.... won't send that through the postal system to my mum then...

Cheers

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bitJericho
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Posted: 21st Apr 2005 13:34
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Quote: "I've heard the SAME thing: "You get points for killing prostitutes"."


I've noticed this at well.. There's two problems with this idea though.. Number one, you get only a healing reward for it (you get the money that you gave her back and you get health) but the only reason you find out you get your money back is killing the prostitute to begin with!

I remember the first time I played gta and picked up a hooker... I ran her butt over to see if I'd get my money back It's called entertainment, you wouldn't believe how funny it was the first time you do it to see what happens

As for picking up and murdering real life hookers.. I'm sorry but I don't feel any more compelled now to take the life of anybody hooker or otherwise, then when I was a "game hooker killing" virgin.


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BatVink
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Posted: 21st Apr 2005 17:50
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Quote: "I don't feel any more compelled now to take the life of anybody hooker or otherwise, then when I was a "game hooker killing" virgin"


I don't think the argument is that everyone will be affected. There are 2 questions:

1. If one person commits an immoral act as a result, should the game have been made available?

2. Who should take responsibility?

It could be argued that many things can be attributed to playing a game, such as falling off a motorbike, or crashing a car. That's why it's such a highly debated topic.

One of the UK's constabularies is looking into using game technology to teach young offenders the rights and wrongs of wreckless driving. Should be interesting to see what they come up with.

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The 1nteger
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Posted: 21st Apr 2005 20:13 Edited at: 21st Apr 2005 20:23
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It's definetly not enforced (games) in the UK. Like i mentioned earlier, a documentary showed some of the biggest stores (Game, Currys, Virgin, Woolworths etc) allowing kids of around 14 years old to buy manhunt & gta vice city

Maybe they think (cashiers/staff) it's part of the box design , perhaps someone should tell them it's an age rating , although telling them this might be as controversial as the aforementioned games!

EDIT: Blooming heck, i didn't even realise we were on a second page, i was there looking for my post on the first page, only to see a 2 drop box!

Quote: "I don't think the argument is that everyone will be affected. There are 2 questions:

1. If one person commits an immoral act as a result, should the game have been made available?

2. Who should take responsibility?"


Exactly, people keep saying "i ain't killed no-one yet, so whats the problem?", problem is, everyone's different and everyones mind state isn't always the same, or strong enougth to handle everything life offers, entertainment or otherwise

@Dazzag: Yes, i can believe that, you'll find the laws regarding violence (and especially porn) is much more loose then here (UK) and the states.

Leroy Frederick - Director / Lead Designer - ETERNAL SYNDROME™ ONLINE: www.ETERNALSYNDROME.com ETERNAL SYNDROME™ - “Play Your Emagination!”™
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Ron Erickson
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Posted: 21st Apr 2005 22:22 Edited at: 21st Apr 2005 22:24
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Quote: "1. If one person commits an immoral act as a result, should the game have been made available?"


See that is the thing though. If something like a game or a movie could push a kid over the limit, isn't he a ticking timebomb anyway? If he is THAT close to the edge, it is just a matter of time even if he doesn't play a violent video game. Don't you think that there is probably another root cause to his problems? As I said before, you can't just blame the final straw that breaks the camel's back. There is probably in every case much more baggage than a game.

Using that same logic, we should ban peanuts because some people are alergic to them.

Oh, and they enforce movie ratings pretty tightly where I am from. Enforcement of video game ratings isn't quite as strict, but it is getting much better. Now, parents just need to follow through.

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Peter H
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Posted: 21st Apr 2005 23:28 Edited at: 21st Apr 2005 23:28
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@Wolf- i completely agree with you...my previous post i was just saying that i don't agree with putting in excess violence/sex just to sell a game...because most parents just leave their kids to play whatever they want without paying attention to them...

Now i don't really think excess violence is much of a problem if you are playing the game with the kid (even if you only play it with him half the time he plays) when you play it with them they are interacting with you more then the game...


Quote: "See that is the thing though. If something like a game or a movie could push a kid over the limit, isn't he a ticking timebomb anyway? If he is THAT close to the edge, it is just a matter of time even if he doesn't play a violent video game. Don't you think that there is probably another root cause to his problems? As I said before, you can't just blame the final straw that breaks the camel's back. There is probably in every case much more baggage than a game.
"

One thought on this though is that if we treat all 542 "straws" as the "last straw" then we will never get rid of any of them...

Me being a christian i think that violent video games aren't at all the problem...it's that these kids are empty, and sometimes they just give up hope...sometimes they take it out on themselves...sometimes they go ballistic on their schoolmates...

If i didn't know about/believe in Jesus i would probably do the same thing...

anyway my incomprehensible babbling is over...

--Peter

"We make the worst games in the universe."

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Fallout
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Posted: 22nd Apr 2005 00:37
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I believe people who are adversely affected by video games are already mentally unstable/ill. If a guy kills someone after seeing a similar act in a computer game, he is mentally unstable.

The question presented then is, do we take away all the things that entertain 99.9% of the population because it might be the straw that broke the camels back for the 1/1000 person who's mentally unstable?

The problem isn't computer games. It's how these people have been treated throughout their lives that puts them in a certain state of mind. The computer game might be the icing on the cage to little jonny's killer rampage, but I'd imagine the bullying, child abuse, lack of parental guidance etc. that made him emotionally disturbed in the first place probably plays just a little bit more of a role than a couple of hours on a computer game.

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Dazzag
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Posted: 22nd Apr 2005 09:06
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Quote: "I believe people who are adversely affected by video games are already mentally unstable/ill. If a guy kills someone after seeing a similar act in a computer game, he is mentally unstable."
Exactly. The same person could lose the plot over something as random as speed cameras, for example. ie. they are nutters, and you prob couldn't guess what could make them loopy. We should learn to understand what troubles each one, but seeing as that would be impossible, then we lock them away forever basically.

Actually that example wasn't that great. The person responsible for speed cameras should be shot live on TV for the entertainment of the nation, for example

Cheers

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leanep
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Posted: 22nd Apr 2005 11:04
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regarding gun control:

gun control is a joke and its unconstitutional, knives are used just as often in muggings and intimidation and fights as guns are (if not more) and you dont see them putting a ban on knives

thats because even though thugs still kill people with knives, all it takes is 1 kid to find daddys pistol and shoot himself, which is both the fathers fault for not keeping it locked and the kids fault for being dumb enough to play with it

you never hear about a kid who accidently killed himself with a knife, so the politicians never have to look like their acting

also, i always thought the people had the right to keep and maintain a well armed militia... right, i want the militia in my town to be armed with baseball bats because our stupid government and power hungry goons like Hilary Clinton took all our guns away



as for kids killing people because they did it in video games, that arguement is completely unproven and unsubstantiated

a heavy dependance on video game killing has never ONCE been the SOLE factor of a killing spree, theres ALWAYS other factors, ie: the kid is bullied at school, on drugs, his parents abuse him, things like that

think all violent games do is cause kids to kill? look at me, ive been playing video games since i was 4 (starting with mario on NES since i didnt have to know how to read to play it) and eventually others

im 16 now and ive been playing FPS's for like 8 years, for hours a day, and ive never killed anybody

that arguement is completely stupid and wrong and is being made by 50 year old people who grew up laughing at Ole Joes Wild West Bonanza in black and white, they grew up in a time when on Leave it to Beaver they didnt have a toilet in wally and beavers bathroom because they thought it was too nasty

they worlds a different place, theyre on a worthless crusade, and every person i know who plays computer games/console games/FPS's and is knowledgable about them hates those politicians

yay
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Ace Of Spades
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Posted: 22nd Apr 2005 13:16
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Quote: "You sure about that? In the US, movie ratings are enforced usually. However game and music ratings are not enforced, though more and more stores are enforcing such ratings. Maybe it is different in Canada."


Games are harder to get than high rated movies for me!

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