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Geek Culture / Sex (& Violence) in Games rant

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bitJericho
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Posted: 22nd Apr 2005 17:01
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Quote: "Me being a christian i think that violent video games aren't at all the problem...it's that these kids are empty, and sometimes they just give up hope...sometimes they take it out on themselves...sometimes they go ballistic on their schoolmates...

If i didn't know about/believe in Jesus i would probably do the same thing...

anyway my incomprehensible babbling is over..."


:/ why can't you have a set of morals and not believe in Jesus x_x

There's a fresh topic for you

As for the topic we're on, I agree completely that you should play these games with your kids... When you run over the hooker and steal her money, you can laugh it off and say something like 'only in the games' or something They're gonna see it anyway, at least now you can separate fantasy and reality, and hopefully they'd notice...

At the same time, my mother never played these games with me, I mean, games like MK3 and stuff, bloody and violent, would play for hours at a time with my brother.. Even imitate the violence at times! But at the end of the day we never slaughtered eachother... So perhaps it's something that needs to be set at an even younger age than what we're discussing..

Now, I wouldn't recommend letting your 5 year old play just because you're there with them, that's far too young for them to even enjoy a game like gta, when they'd be far more interested in colorful imagery and silly sounds


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Flindiana Jones
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Posted: 23rd Apr 2005 01:19
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Quote: ":/ why can't you have a set of morals and not believe in Jesus x_x"

no one ever said that you couldn't... it's just that if you're not christian (or sometimes if you are ) you're morals may not be the most best morals for surviving in society.

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bitJericho
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Posted: 23rd Apr 2005 15:31
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Quote: "it's just that if you're not christian (or sometimes if you are ) you're morals may not be the most best morals for surviving in society."


You have no idea how much that thought scares the crap out of me.

Are you saying that if I don't believe what you believe I will not succeed and/or get lynched?

Another checkmark for why I will *never* be a christian.


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Eric T
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Posted: 23rd Apr 2005 15:37
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1- "Do you belive in god?"
2- "No"
*BANG*
1- "Do you belive in god?"
3- "Yes"
1- "Do you belive in my god?"
3- "No"
*Bang*
1- "My god has a bigger dick then your god!"

HEHE

Sigs blow.
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BearCDPOLD
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Posted: 23rd Apr 2005 16:06
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Quote: "no one ever said that you couldn't... it's just that if you're not christian (or sometimes if you are ) you're morals may not be the most best morals for surviving in society."


Now I'm Catholic, and I don't believe that. Our priests have had problems, and the last protestant church I went to gave me a lot of grief because I played Dungeons & Dragons - what a wonderful show of morals by both groups.

Here's my set of morals, five bucks to anyone who can identify what they're from:
Trustworthiness
Loyalty
Helpfulness
Friendliness
Curteousy
Kindness
Obedience
Cheerfulness
Being Thrift
Bravery
Cleanliness
Reverence(have some kind of philosophy/respect for a diety)

Crazy Donut Productions
Current Project: A Redneck game
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Mentor
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Posted: 23rd Apr 2005 20:33
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imo it`s the same with games as it is with movies, but I always say (cue meaningfull quote type voice )

"you can offend many people by swearing or using obscene imagery or violence, but I never heard of of anyone getting upset by the absence of bad language, sex or violence, you might get someone saying it lacks realism, but they don`t get upset"

with the potential for harm to peoples lives that you have with graphic depictions of unsavoury acts (kids who grow up thinking bondage and whips are preferable sexual behaviour or that running amok in a street with a pump action not only cures your problems but makes you a hero for example), you will have a percentage, maybe only a very small percentage, but a percentage non the less, of people who end up living unhappy or confused lives, I think it indefensible to say that those unhappy people are acceptable because IT MAKES A PROFIT, thats the worst excuse for destroying somebodys life I ever heard.

you only have to look into the pshycology of fetishism for example, some stimulus aquired in childhood can become a life warping obsession, and if those stimulus are potentialy harmful to other people, then you have problems for all of us, not just those people who would have lead relativley normal lives if left to develop without being exposed to extremes of behaviour.

my point is that we had perfectly good movies without "graphic" violence, rape and torture (implied was often more frightening than vivid depictions anyway), we had perfectly good games before they offered rape and murder as incentives, I have no issue with killing Stroggs, they don`t reason and they are cannibals (and worse) and the setting is fictional, I do have problems with killing a person in a normal setting for points and a health bonus before stealing a car and killing a pedestrian, it all screams "hey! I have no values and don`t need em!" all over the place.

the reason why violence is so popular with game/film makers is that it is an easy fix for their customers, without the murder and the rapes all you have is the plot, and if you strip the action and sex out of say "matrix reloaded" then what you have is a few minutes of badly presented psuedo philosophy, what the makers avoid of course is work, you can make anything watchable with enough CGI action, any game initialy interesting with enough voilence or eye candy (another of my pet hates), but you can never make it GOOD.


Mentor.

PC1:XP, P4 3ghz, 1gig mem, 3x160gig hd`s, Radeon 9800pro, 6 way sound.
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Three Score
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Posted: 23rd Apr 2005 23:16
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i have heard from somewhere(dont remeber where) that they say porn is the most addictive thing yet and passes acholhol and stuff and i think like 9 out of 10 people get addicted to it

but anyway im going to control myself and read the posts before i start saying things

X-Patch x-patch.exe(gui):75% make.exe:5% x-patch.dll(runtime dll):0% developed on win xp home sp2
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bitJericho
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Posted: 24th Apr 2005 04:49 Edited at: 24th Apr 2005 04:50
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Quote: "you can offend many people by swearing or using obscene imagery or violence, but I never heard of of anyone getting upset by the absence of bad language, sex or violence, you might get someone saying it lacks realism, but they don`t get upset"


You can say that for just about anything x_x

But the fact is people do want blood and gore.. Yes I do like mowing people over and then stopping to pick up their money in GTA.. it's a GAME, not real life.. I would be terrified if I'd ever hurt somebody with a car in real life. Prolly my biggest fear in fact is hitting somebody with my car.... However if there's a guy crossing the road while I'm flying from the police IN A GAME, I've no qualms not letting him slow me down

Ah yes, this comes back to your 'well some people are mentally ill' debate.. Yes well, let's ban anything that the abusers will use against us/themselves.. All over the counter medication that could be lethal, all weapons like knives and whatnot, I mean, we can't have them killing themselves with knives because they heard about somebody else doing it...


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Flindiana Jones
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Posted: 25th Apr 2005 06:10
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i meant, that if youre not christian, youre morals miht tend towards "hmmm, that guy ticks me off. I'll go and punch him." or "he shot my mom, so I'll shoot his mom, dad, and little sister." which are both unacceptable in our society. I'm not saying that you can't have good morals: i'm not even saying that most people who are non christian will have non acceptable morals. I am merely saying that Christianity will not get you in trouble in the U.S, or other Civilized nations. at least, not legal trouble.

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The 1nteger
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Posted: 25th Apr 2005 21:51 Edited at: 25th Apr 2005 22:00
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I understand what Flindiana is saying and i don't think what Peter_ said came across as 'if your not a CHRISTtian (as i like to call it), you don't/can't have valid/any morals', but then, i'm bias.

Although i did expect somebody to translate it like that or react to it. I've seen some nasty posts in my time because someone typed the word christian. It gave persecution a new meaning (I'm not saying that's what's happened here).

Anyway, back on subject, i think that a lot of developers might not see themselves as having to watch what they create to the degree that people might want them to, because for the best part, game developers are faceless (unbelievable) in the mainstream media, thus don't really feel that pressure as direct role models as you might have with musicians/actors (although they don't seem that bothered either). What do you think?

Also, what do you guys think of the facelessness (is that even a word) of game developers, such as an article that came out a few months ago about a game developer that works for sony not being able to get into a sony party but Tara Reid just walking in no problems (or something like that, you may of read it).

I think it's pretty sad that the industry/publishers don't look after talent like hollywood and the music industry do. I'm not saying i wanna see game developers walking up and down red carpets all day, or being the 15th person to date the latest hot thing, but man, i keep reading about stuff like the aforementioned article and publishers buying or/and screwing over studios and it's so uncool, especially when you consider us game devs work harder then any musician/actor for the best part (i remember a script writer or something saying making a script for 1 game was like making for 3 movies!), yet still the mainstream media think it's childs play or the industry revolves around controversy.

Leroy Frederick - Director / Lead Designer - ETERNAL SYNDROME™ ONLINE: www.ETERNALSYNDROME.com ETERNAL SYNDROME™ - “Play Your Emagination!”™
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Hawkeye
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Posted: 25th Apr 2005 22:52
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You know what, I have some very insightful and provoctave thoughts about that, but unfourtinately I'm in school But yes that is SERIOUSLY uncool..

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bitJericho
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Posted: 27th Apr 2005 13:47 Edited at: 27th Apr 2005 13:48
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Quote: "he shot my mom, so I'll shoot his mom, dad, and little sister."


So where exactly is "an eye for an eye" written..

That's very much a Catholic concept, though it's being phased out by modern society's beliefs. I can come up with countless other examples similar to that too.. I mean seriously, Christians don't have the best of beliefs around Christ? Ye maybe, dunno never met the guy, but certainly not some modern day Christians..


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BearCDPOLD
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Posted: 27th Apr 2005 15:02 Edited at: 27th Apr 2005 15:02
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Hey, I was raised Christian, converting to Catholic because I just like the way they do things better. If we want to point out generalities, a Christian church I came from was full of Christians that thought they were modern crusaders or something and I mention a little thing here and there about Dungeons & Dragons or Doom, or Pokemon and they get all whacked out. I can't say that about everybody though, I've many Christian friends in school who will only start talking in that sense if you bring it up and start being a pain about it. Heck, I'm even still Christian and I don't follow the stereotype (pro-evolution/natural selection baby, but let's not talk about that).

Who else? Muslims. People here in the United States can get bent out of shape over Islam because of what's going on in recent years, but I know some kids at school who are Muslim, and they're the most peaceable people I know.

Do people need to even follow a religion to have values? No. Sure, as you're saying it helps to have been exposed to religious ideas since birth, but to exclude non-religious folks from the category of being principled is a shame.

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bitJericho
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Posted: 27th Apr 2005 15:51 Edited at: 27th Apr 2005 15:54
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well stated!

I know a lot of Christians who are nice people.. sure.. But some of the beliefs held by those in spiritual power, I guess if that's what ya call em, are very poor beliefs, and unfortunately, in the sense of mass public religion.. The beliefs of those who are the deciders of such things trickle down to most others...

Seems silly... Why can't you believe in God or even Christianity without believing what your priest/cardinal/pope/president has to say on any given topic?

Like a highschool click... Can't you have your own beliefs and say 'screw you' to whoever says you're wrong (of course, in a respectful "I'll believe what I believe" way)? I think it's human nature to be in a click.. and unfortunately religion is the largest and possibly most powerful set of clicks to be in.

Or *gasp* even being a sheep. Not even forming an opinion to begin with until you hear your "whoever you look upto"'s opinion.

*Forget that, I got my own brain, I'm my own click, babeh*


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The 1nteger
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Posted: 27th Apr 2005 22:33
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Hey you guys, stop this, back on subject, look, i'm a CHRISTian and someday I'd like to have a beard like Moses and the wisdom of Solomon, but that's another subject and this ain't the place to talk about that, do I have to put you in seperate rooms, make you face the wall, write forum lines?

Quote: "Anyway, back on subject, i think that a lot of developers might not see themselves as having to watch what they create to the degree that people might want them to, because for the best part, game developers are faceless (unbelievable) in the mainstream media, thus don't really feel that pressure as direct role models as you might have with musicians/actors (although they don't seem that bothered either). What do you think?

Also, what do you guys think of the facelessness (is that even a word) of game developers, such as an article that came out a few months ago about a game developer that works for sony not being able to get into a sony party but Tara Reid just walking in no problems (or something like that, you may of read it).

I think it's pretty sad that the industry/publishers don't look after talent like hollywood and the music industry do. I'm not saying i wanna see game developers walking up and down red carpets all day, or being the 15th person to date the latest hot thing, but man, i keep reading about stuff like the aforementioned article and publishers buying or/and screwing over studios and it's so uncool, especially when you consider us game devs work harder then any musician/actor for the best part (i remember a script writer or something saying making a script for 1 game was like making for 3 movies!), yet still the mainstream media think it's childs play or the industry revolves around controversy. "


Leroy Frederick - Director / Lead Designer - ETERNAL SYNDROME™ ONLINE: www.ETERNALSYNDROME.com ETERNAL SYNDROME™ - “Play Your Emagination!”™
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Van B
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Posted: 28th Apr 2005 01:07
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It's easy to point the finger at GTA and Manhunt, because they're deliberately violent, but really I've never been offended, or very concearned about letting my son play them.

He plays Fable a lot too, and Dog Life, both these games have obscure gameplay facets that should'nt really be in kids games - so where's all the negative press about them?

In Dogs Life, you play a dog (duh!) but you can squeeze out a turd, chew it, throw it, eat it or leave it on a car bonnet if you like. That's some pretty sick visuals for a game aimed at kids.

In Fable, there's a few bits I imagine, but the gay pre-school teacher and the kids all looking worried and saying 'this is wrong' - personally I thought that was just unnecessary political correctness, but it seems to have worked in reverse.

In the sims, you can lock people in the bathroom and let them die.

At least Manhunt and GTA don't hide behind marketing - you know already what your buying, it's upto parents to decide whether their kids can play these games, the blame for these so called 'related' killings is about million miles from RSN's doorstep.


Van-B

Quote: "How could I condescend you?, you don't even know what it means!"

Van-B's mom.
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geecee3
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Posted: 28th Apr 2005 22:17
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RSN are pushing the bounderies of ADULT VIDEO GAMING.
they don't make games for kids. and when THE WARRIORS game is released, it's going to make everything they have done before look rather TAME.

ROCKSTAR also make films, just check out THE FOOTBALL FACTORY.
NOT A MOVIE FOR KIDS.

It's time to start SLAPPING THE PARENTS for letting their kids play these kinds of video games. As the hardware becomes ever more advanced we are more likely to see games that involve more explicit scenes of sex and violence.

even the WAR games these days are starting to develop a more adult theme by the addition of swearing during play, But then soldiers probably do swear a lot when getting shot at. it's just more atmosphere and added realism.

kids games = crash bandicoot, spyro, mario and the likes

adult games are a different kettle of fish entirely, and as such should only ever be sold to adults. the THINK 21 scheme should be introduced to stores supplying video games. if you don't look 21 then you can't buy an adult game.

this may cause a problem for the 18 year olds who look a bit younger. but i'm sure the benifits of a system like this will far outweigh the cons.

I want to see video games progress and grow, just as they have been doing, a few controversial games is not really a problem, considering that they are meant to be played exclusivley by adults.
and these games are technically very good and well thought out.

It's just a matter of time before the technology becomes so advanced, that evil people will be able to make games like child abuse smulators or rape simulators and this is where companies like TGC in my opinion are making a wrong move. by providing tools that are so simple to use, any evil person can abuse them, FPSC is a prime example. Once you can script scenes and events with extreme ease, the amount of subversive titles will increase at an alarming rate. this will happen because the evil people will not have to PROGRAM their game from scratch. if they can imagine it, they will make it. these things are coming and there is nothing anyone can do to stop them.

you'll look back in 10 years and say "why do we not make games like san andreas anymore, what happened to DECENT computer games?"
because in 10 years time the technology will be as good as real life in graphical and physical simulation terms and will further cloud the minds of already polluted kids. it's like gaming nowadays is almost SOCIAL PROGRAMMING of sorts. my m8 let his 6 year old son play GTA-SA, but it was'nt the 6 year old who started swearing, it was the 2 and a half year old who was watching his brother play the game. even the slightest exposure to some of these titles is a bad thing for kids.

regards, geecee3.
PS. it's just my opinion, i'm not looking to start a fight!!!
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Poik Spirit
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Posted: 7th May 2005 09:26
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It's time to slap the KIDS for watching these things. It isn't always the parents fault, or the medias. Somethings the kids take all the blame. They find a way to see the things they want to see. I did and I know it wasn't right. But eventually everyone does it. It's not a perfect word, there isn't a solution for everything. But still I agree that they should enforce the ratings a little more.
And these are my opinions too. You can disagree with me if you like, but this is how I think it is.
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