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Geek Culture / Anti-game Bill

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Phaelax
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Posted: 30th May 2005 08:34
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http://www.gamedev.net/community/forums/topic.asp?topic_id=321813

PETA - People for the Eating of Tasty Animals
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KYP
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Posted: 30th May 2005 08:35
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first person ever to view this!!!!!!!!!! 0 views on the thingamajij.

program 'till your butt falls off, and never give up.
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Dark Flame
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Posted: 30th May 2005 08:39
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I viewed it...

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KYP
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Posted: 30th May 2005 08:46
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when i viewed it, it said 0 views.... hhhhmmmmmm.....

program 'till your butt falls off, and never give up.
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Ace Of Spades
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Posted: 30th May 2005 08:47
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That bill is a buch of <insert large scary curse word>!!! Good thing I don't live in CA


Im only "Apolloed" In Spirit
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Phaelax
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Posted: 30th May 2005 08:48
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that means you need to get offline for awhile and go play outside

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adr
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Posted: 30th May 2005 09:27
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Seems like a lot of the posts are in favour of the bill. Admittedly, the one downside to this bill is, as Adraeus says, it legitimises the media-grabbing theory that violent games churn out violent killers. The only games which would really fall foul of this bill would be "softer" fighting games, like Tekken or Dead or Alive. While people don't die, you could argue that the objective of the game is to pound the crap out of human-like characters. Also, you could consider some of the costumes in DoA sexually depraved

Me? With my reputation?
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Hamish McHaggis
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Posted: 30th May 2005 09:39
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And? In Britain all forms of media with an age rating aren't allowed to be sold to people under the specified age. I'd say I have to agree with the bill if at the moment Californian 5 year olds can buy GTA . Or maybe I'm misunderstanding...

More tea Vicar?
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Megaton Cat
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Posted: 30th May 2005 09:44
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I saw the manager at my locale Microplay sell SanAndreas to an 8 year old.

It's M-E-G-A-T-O-N. NOT MEGATRON.
DON'T MAKE ME GET THE RABBIT.
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soapyfish
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Posted: 30th May 2005 11:14
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The bit I found odd was "custom warning labels" why not just create a set design that all retailers use?

Whatever happens, it won't be 100% successful. This problem has been brought to public attention more recently in the UK because newspapers have a massively one sided arguement (violent games are bad) before that people bought games they were too young to buy and they still do now, it just ain't as easy.




Formely play2kill

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Megaton Cat
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Posted: 30th May 2005 11:22
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Who cares what bill they pass. If you want to buy a game, ask a random adult shopper to buy it for you. Tis how I got Diablo II when it came out.

(Not like it's asking to buy Beer. The store clerk didn't mind)

It's M-E-G-A-T-O-N. NOT MEGATRON.
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Dave J
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Posted: 30th May 2005 13:52
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And guess who has to sign this bill for it to pass, the one governor who currently has a violent video game on store shelves!

Having said that, I see nothing wrong with the bill anyway.


"Computers are useless, they can only give you answers."
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Lost in Thought
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Posted: 30th May 2005 15:16
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What's wrong with the bill? It says it is illegal to sell it to minors not that it is illegal for your parents to buy it for you. This just helps make sure the parents have more of a say so in what you should and should not do. Keeps kids from saving up and buying stuff their parents don't want them to have.

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Raven
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Posted: 30th May 2005 15:21
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I dunno what the hell the belly aching is about, the bill is just not to sell games of a violent nature to minors.

Doesn't mean you can't import them. It's like a gun, you can't legally buy one in California until your 21, however there is no law against you owning one before that. So it's quite easy to go to Arizona or Nevada buy a gun and come back.

It's the same deal, and at the end of the day.. the Certifications haven't stoped under-aged gamers purchasing them in the past, or owning them. So quite frankly I don't see a problem.

All this will really stop is Development Companies being liable for legal action over the content of thier software. Honestly I don't see the bad side.

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Ace Of Spades
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Posted: 31st May 2005 01:17
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Quote: " I dunno what the hell the belly aching is about, the bill is just not to sell games of a violent nature to minors."


Well let's take a look at exactly what the hell I am belly aching about...

First of all, who is the one to decide what "violent" is? Say Mario shoots Yoshi with a fireball...does this make it violent? The description they have of violence is way to open-ended. Everyone has a different opinion on violence, so it just doesn't make it fair. First off, I think children SHOULD have access to violent video games, but at least it is understandable why they are not supposed to be allowed to buy certain games such as GTA: SA, but still, this bill is not just limiting the sale of games that have the "M" or "AO" ratings, it is limiting the sale of any game that some jackass decides. I wouldn't exactly mind a bill that stated children can not buy any games with "real" nudity or with "realistic-blood"(although i wouldn't like it much), but the current bill that is going to be decided upon is just stupid. However, with all the close-minded parents out there, it will most liikely pass anyway.


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David R
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Posted: 31st May 2005 01:24
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Quote: "The description they have of violence is way to open-ended"


Your description of an open-ended description is way-too open ended

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Ace Of Spades
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Posted: 31st May 2005 01:32
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Quote: "Your description of an open-ended description is way-too open ended"


That is very...Un-American of you to say such a thing.(which I guess makes sense).


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David R
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Posted: 31st May 2005 01:35
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Yeah... your right. Just talking crap.

I get your point with the open-ended description thing though.

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Sephnroth
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Posted: 31st May 2005 01:50
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I also dont see the problem with this bill, it works for me. At the end of the day the definition of violance itself doesnt really matter. The bill would stop the kids from being able to decide what the definition of "excessive violance" is and then the task lays on the parents to buy it, this is how it should be. Even if the "official" description of violance is generally considered wrong/open ended/whateverthehell it doesnt matter because the parents are the one who can buy the game and they are the ones who will decide if its within THEIR definition of too much violance or not.

I think this kind of bill is good. People always arguing about wether or not violance and crap effects people - the answer is simply that yes it effects some, SOME, people. Everyone gets effected by a multitude of things in totally different ways, usually unoticiable in a single incident but this is how your personality and self are shaped by everything in life. Different people may react different to different things (violance in games for this example) and this is how your personality in life is made unique.

Thus is stands to reason that people gotta stop bitching about what effects what on a per media basis and started considering it on a per person basis instead. This is a task belonging to parents, is the right and DUTY of a parent, and we need bills like this to stop kids from being able to say "I dont care what my parents say because I can buy it myself anyway".

Briefly, the points that article lists are often utter crap and then contridict themselfs later. Example:

First point: "No other entertainment industry's products are ..."

then later: "The bill not only regulates video games but also indirectly regulates the film and music industries ..."

Make up your mind damn it.

This bill does not infringe free speech, it just draws the line at where someone is responsiable and its their freedom of choice that wins through. I'm sorry kids, free speech is wonderful and all but we have parents for a reason and you cant pull that card until your old enough to understand the spin off from it.

Just my two hundread and thirty three pounds nintey six pence.

[07:16:59-pm] « Sephnroth » you were dreaming about lee...
[07:17:13-pm] « Mouse » stfu
[07:17:22-pm] « Mouse » he was hanging himself lol
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Ace Of Spades
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Posted: 31st May 2005 01:53
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Quote: "People always arguing about wether or not violance and crap effects people - the answer is simply that yes it effects some, SOME, people."


There is no concrete evidence linked directly to video games causing violence in kids. In fact, "spanking" your kids will have a MUCH greater chance of causing them to be violent than any video game.


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3DGIRLX
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Posted: 31st May 2005 01:58
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games are like real life


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Sephnroth
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Posted: 31st May 2005 02:06
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There is no concrete evidence that it doesnt either - so after the hammer falls all thats left is common sense, and yes there are multiple cases of people who have been effected by MANY things and many people who HAVNT - thus you need to judge it per person not per media and the ONLY people in a position to do that are the parents of the person in question (if hes/shes young) and this bill gives them the chance to do this.

You would have to be very naive indeed to think that violent games and films and music do not effect people in any way and you would also need to have a complete lack of understanding of the human psyche.

Ever since we were children we would often see our favourite show on tv then go and play afterwards pretending we were in the show - many times I was a Ninja Turtle! This is innocent and fine child make belive and even I would say nessiary for complete mental devlopment - but it can swing too far in both directions on a per person basis and thats what the parents must be able to monitor and stop. If I had picked up a fire poker and started bneating my sister with hit saying "hiiiiiYAH!" after watching the ninja turtles do their stuff there would of been some serious issues, I should hope my mother would of spotted me before I had even finished picking it up and explaining why you dont play with blunt objects.

That may seem irrelevent, but it was an example of how innocent things effect people innocently and it happens every day. Music, another powerful medium, has spawned ENTIRE CULTURES within other cultures - moshers, rappers, hiphop rockers, etc. Often the groups dont get on and whatnot, its a perfect example of "something that has no proof" clearly effecting large groups of people in the extreme, I think you will find most of us on this board are effected by it to at least some state.

The bill doesnt prevent these games from being sold to people old enough to decide for themselfs. It doesnt erradicate games or music or films from our culture. It just stops the kids, who are scientificly know for FACT to be alot more impressionable then someone already up into their late teens (at which point you are most likely damn stubborn already, thus the phrase "the mind of a child"), from over ruling their parents decision on the matter.

The sooner people online and everywhere stop talking crap like "OMGZ U GOT NO PROOFS" and "VIOLANCE IS GOOD AND FUN IT DOESNT EFFECT US SHUTUP OR I KILL YOU" and realise there IS an issue and that it ISNT a hugely seriously one but it has POTENTIAL to be if people faff around with it then the sooner we can reach a set of rules which dont stop us from having the games, dont stop people from making the games, but protects those most vunerable to the influence of fantasy worlds and situations and gives parents the firmer control of their parents that they deserve and need.

[07:16:59-pm] « Sephnroth » you were dreaming about lee...
[07:17:13-pm] « Mouse » stfu
[07:17:22-pm] « Mouse » he was hanging himself lol
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Raven
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Posted: 31st May 2005 02:39
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Stop crying and ask your mom or dad to buy that new game for you.
If the laws were even half as strict as they were here conserning the ratings, then there wouldn't be any possibility of such a bill even needing to be passed.

Might help if your culture wasn't so hell-bent on passing blame to every damn thing you can in order to take it away from yourselves.

Not that the UK is that much better, but at the end of the day we're still a good decade behind your culture in 'blame something else than take responsibility'. (thank god)

Hope that this sue everything else culture is just a fad that passes.

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Ace Of Spades
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Posted: 31st May 2005 03:23
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Quote: "You would have to be very naive indeed to think that violent games and films and music do not effect people in any way and you would also need to have a complete lack of understanding of the human psyche."


I have a very good understanding of the human psyche. Just aced my fourth psych class in school, and in many cases, this topic WAS covered. Learned that the was no factual evidence directly linking the two.


Quote: " Stop crying and ask your mom or dad to buy that new game for you."


Im plenty old to buy the games myself, I just think that it is unfair.

Quote: "Might help if your culture wasn't so hell-bent on passing blame to every damn thing you can in order to take it away from yourselves."


Yea, I'll have to say, the states are pretty damned stupid...but hey, it just how it is.

Quote: "Hope that this sue everything else culture is just a fad that passes."


Nope, it shall never pass.


Im only "Apolloed" In Spirit
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David R
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Posted: 31st May 2005 04:24
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A bit like indegestion.... it'll never pass (through your ass)

[Random useless rubbish again]

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Sephnroth
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Posted: 31st May 2005 05:18 Edited at: 31st May 2005 05:19
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Quote: "
I have a very good understanding of the human psyche. Just aced my fourth psych class in school, and in many cases, this topic WAS covered. Learned that the was no factual evidence directly linking the two.
"


Not to offend or anything, but that really doesnt mean alot to me. Some of the best scientists in the world have been wrong on subjects before, a school psych class holds little water. Seriously, this isnt an attempt to put you down! I'm just not going to let that mean its inarguable

To start with I dont trust half the things taught in schools these days. Alot of things seem to take the approach of "logic will fix it" and then they completly miss the differance between logic and common sense which are rarely the same thing.

As I said, there is no evidence that they are connected and there is no envidence that they arnt. I say you would have to be naive because all you really have to do is open your eyes and take a look at everything around you and you can see how EVERYTHING effects people regardless of tests and surveys, games is no exception and as quite a powerful and engrossing media I would say its quite high on the list of suspects.

[07:16:59-pm] « Sephnroth » you were dreaming about lee...
[07:17:13-pm] « Mouse » stfu
[07:17:22-pm] « Mouse » he was hanging himself lol
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Jeku
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Posted: 31st May 2005 05:22
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Quote: "However, with all the close-minded parents out there, it will most liikely pass anyway."


You really can't talk unless you have kids of your own.

I think the bill is okay. I mean, you can't just walk into a movie theatre here and buy a ticket for an 18A film if you're underage.


--[R.O.B.O.I. and FireTris Coming Soon]--
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Ian T
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Posted: 31st May 2005 05:31 Edited at: 31st May 2005 05:32
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Zerp.

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Ace Of Spades
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Posted: 31st May 2005 05:54
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Quote: "You really can't talk unless you have kids of your own."


So is that admitting parent are close-minded...or....saying parents can't think logically when dealing with their kids...or...

anywho, even if I were to be a parent, i don't see myself restricting my kid from certain said "violent" video games. It will help them be exposed to such violence and learn that it is only a game. Unlike the kids who are never exposed to violence and think its normal or good. Idk, i think I just confused myself...

Final Stance: I think the bill is just stupid and their is no changing my mind on it


Im only "Apolloed" In Spirit
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Sephnroth
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Posted: 31st May 2005 06:07
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anywho, even if I were to be a parent, i don't see myself restricting my kid from certain said "violent" video games. It will help them be exposed to such violence and learn that it is only a game.
"


I had a long list of things to say about this. But I think I can sum it all up quite nicely with..

:/

[07:16:59-pm] « Sephnroth » you were dreaming about lee...
[07:17:13-pm] « Mouse » stfu
[07:17:22-pm] « Mouse » he was hanging himself lol
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David R
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Posted: 31st May 2005 06:12
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Quote: "anywho, even if I were to be a parent, i don't see myself restricting my kid from certain said "violent" video games"


You'll have horrible s*** holes for kids then - believe me. Discipline (sp?) damn you!

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Ace Of Spades
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Posted: 31st May 2005 06:33
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Quote: "You'll have horrible s*** holes for kids then - believe me. Discipline (sp?) damn you!"


Never said ANYTHING about discipline. That's like say "What? You let your kids watch tv!? Discipline damn you!"

I just feel kids need discipline for different things. Wanting to play a particular video game isn't one of them(unless they piss me off about it).


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David R
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Posted: 31st May 2005 06:41
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Allowance -> Reaction -> Response -> Behaviour -> Discipline -> Obeyance of commands -> Allowance


The chain goes on. Basically, everything comes ina total circle; I'm not saying that games necessarily have a negative effect on children, but children react upon the differences on their own upbringing compared to the 'standard' ruleset for other children.

In this way, if a child believes that they are 'getting it differently' from other kids, then they'll try and differ other elements of their life - and the first to go is behaviour!!

Who's in control? You or the child?
("Wanna know more? Do physchology!")

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Raven
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Posted: 31st May 2005 07:22
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Quote: "Who's in control? You or the child?
("Wanna know more? Do physchology!")"


Depends.. if it's a boy, Me. if it's a girl, Her.
Hypotheticals for like a few years time though, heh

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Eric T
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Posted: 31st May 2005 08:59
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Am I the only one seeing something good coming outta this? I think we should have sh*tloads of warning labels on the cases. Hell, I think the case itself should be a warning label. The game titles should be changed too. Instead of "Grand Theft Auto", it should be "Hey mom! A game that I steal cars and bang hookers, then murder them and get my money back".

If that were to happen, then all the lawyers in the world, and all the "mom activists" couldn't shift blame to the Developers. All blame would be on the stores, and themselves.

The key is, to not think outside of the box, but to think on the outside edges.

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qwe
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Posted: 31st May 2005 09:12
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perhaps banning and making such a big deal out of blood/violence makes the blood/violence more popular

if people saw what violence in war and such was realy like, ie, blood and guts flying everywhere, no heroic deaths, only nasty deaths, seen realistically in all the video games and movies, people would be much more opposed to war and violence???

or perhaps the government would rather desensitise us to violence by showing us there isnt that much blood, people can say heroic things as they die, and dying is just a bullet going into you, you dont get mutilated at all

look at swear words. they are the only slang (or some of hte only) that have survived for centuries! the more something is prohibited by society, the more appeal it will have to certain sections of that society. if you think abuot it, it doesnt matter if someone says a swear word, it's just a word. it's only bad if you say it's bad. if you uncensored them all and basically loosened up, they wouldnt be used. people would try to find other "naughty" things to say, and say those repeatedly

personally i think truth and free speech/expression should reign over censorship. i think the constitution supports me here...
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Ace Of Spades
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Posted: 31st May 2005 09:48
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Quote: "
personally i think truth and free speech/expression should reign over censorship. i think the constitution supports me here..."


Finally, someone with sense.


Im only "Apolloed" In Spirit
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Dave J
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Posted: 31st May 2005 10:15
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Yeah, 'free speech', isn't that the biggest cliche the world has ever seen.


"Computers are useless, they can only give you answers."
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Jeku
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Posted: 31st May 2005 15:12
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Quote: "personally i think truth and free speech/expression should reign over censorship."


Sorry but that doesn't fly with me. What about censorship of child pornography? Isn't that infringing on the creators' rights? You can only use the "free speech" blanket so much.


--[R.O.B.O.I. and FireTris Coming Soon]--
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Perokreco
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Posted: 31st May 2005 21:23
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Just to say something about this.When iwas 6 I played Castle Wolfstein.When i was 6 I played DOOM and when I was 7 I played Duke Nukem.Now i am completely normal person and i have never hit anyone in my life.I am also pacifist and straight A in school.So tell now who did playing violent games affected my life(And also i have seen hundreds of films which would be classified in US as not allowed for under 18 which had scenes of volence sadism and rape and how did it exactly influenced me)
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David R
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Posted: 31st May 2005 22:21
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Its not the medium that effects children. It is the reaction of other people around them affects their veiw and behaviour on the content

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Peter H
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Posted: 1st Jun 2005 05:05
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i think violence in games is good if it's in there correctly...

problem is most games glorify violence...like all the games about wars...they make you feel like a hero and don't really go into things like how it feels to watch your buddy get shot or have to make eye contact with a person you are about to kill...ect

and of course they show it that way...people will pay for that stuff...so it's not all the developers fault...

"We make the worst games in the universe."

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qwe
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Posted: 1st Jun 2005 06:30
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Quote: "Sorry but that doesn't fly with me. What about censorship of child pornography? Isn't that infringing on the creators' rights? You can only use the "free speech" blanket so much."


child pornography involves sexual acts with people when non-consenting children. it's not exactly censorship, it's illegalising sexual acts with non consenting people, which means you cannot film child pornography

violence in video games is something completely different

as i said in my original post, if blood wasn't taken out, etc, people would see how horrible violence can be. right now, kids playing war games don't see anything disgusting. they may see an inch long spray of "blood." this is even worse than glorifying war, it's just lying to ourselves about what war is. showing it truthfully would probably be a good incentive to hate war
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Lost in Thought
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Posted: 1st Jun 2005 06:33
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This seems more of a bill to give parents more rights to decide what their kids should and should not be playing. If they don't mind you playing it, let them buy it for you. If not, then you don't need to be playing it anyway. It should, in the end, all come down to the parents' choice anyway. I am not against violent video games and I am also not against this bill. I do agree though they should make a standard label to put on them instead of everyone making their own

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Ace Of Spades
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Posted: 1st Jun 2005 06:38
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Quote: "It should, in the end, all come down to the parents' choice anyway."


I disagree. I myself am not a parent so I don't have the views of a parent, but im just sick of people saying kids aren't smart enough to make decisions for themselves. The whole "parent knows best" theory is just crap. In some cases, yes, parents do know best. However, in many cases, the children have first hand experience with the issue and THEY know best. I have never been under the belief that parents should "own" their kids. I think once a kid turns 13, he should fully be able to make his own decisions. If the kid makes a bad decision, there will probably be a bad consequence and he/she will learn from it. All in all, parents should not have dictator right even over their own children.


Im only "Apolloed" In Spirit
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Jeku
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Posted: 1st Jun 2005 06:55
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Quote: "The whole "parent knows best" theory is just crap. In some cases, yes, parents do know best. However, in many cases, the children have first hand experience with the issue and THEY know best."


Oh my--- I feel really bad for your parents. You're so foolish as to believe a child who is 13 has equal or *more* knowledge than an adult? Wow--- you are too much.

Quote: "I think once a kid turns 13, he should fully be able to make his own decisions."


Well, when you're a parent you'll understand. That's all I can say, right? I'm not a parent and even I understand. I would think that 99.9% of the rest of the world would agree with me that a 13 year old knows squat about the world. They *think* they know everything--- hell, 17 year olds think they know much more than they do. It's when they actually go out into the real world and live life on their own do they realize how little they knew.

(Of course I'm referring to 13 adn 17 year olds who still live with their parents--- if you're 17 and have been living on your own, paying bills, working full-time etc., then you are an exception.)


--[R.O.B.O.I. and FireTris Coming Soon]--
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Lost in Thought
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Posted: 1st Jun 2005 06:55
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LOL I would wager most non-parents say that. If your parents tell you not to do something you should not do it. You should however use your own judgement in extreme cases (life and death/ very wrong sort of thing) because some parent's aren't good. But which video game to play and not play is not one of those cases. It's not a matter of thinking that kids aren't smart enough to make their own decisions. Nor is it that most parent's don't trust kids in most cases. What it all comes down to at the end of the day is, your parents ... not you, are responsible for your well being until you are grown. The ones responsible for your actions in the eyes of the law is your parents not you.

Quote: "
I think once a kid turns 13, he should fully be able to make his own decisions. If the kid makes a bad decision, there will probably be a bad consequence and he/she will learn from it. All in all, parents should not have dictator right even over their own children.
"


Then said 13 year old should move out and get a job to support/ be responsible for them selves, if this is what they want. I would move to a different country first where this sort of thing is legal and 13 year olds also have babies

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Ace Of Spades
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Posted: 1st Jun 2005 07:10
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Quote: " if you're 17 and have been living on your own, paying bills, working full-time etc., then you are an exception."


Guess im an exception

Seriously though, just because kids don't have as much knowledge as their parents doesn't mean they will make bad decisions. Even kids should have the right to control their own lives. When it comes to certain things such as cleaning up, doing chores, or whatever, the kid should do them when asked as long as he lives with his parents, but shouldn't be so restricted so that he can't make his own decisions. Honestly, I moved out of my parents house at a rather young age, because I simply could not take it anymore, and I haven't regretted the decision one bit. Everything has worked out just fine for me, and my life is great. Have my own income, my own place, I control my life and I think that it should be that way for all kids. Obviously, if a kid can't understand the concept of responsibility, then he shouldn't make his own decisions, but I believe most kids CAN understand that. Ok, I will shut it now.


Im only "Apolloed" In Spirit
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Ace Of Spades
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Posted: 1st Jun 2005 08:08
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Quote: "And really, parents think whats best as them. They don't think of the child who was left out, they think of what, as a parent, they need as a child. Indirect experiance, and all their child hood memorys over wrote with adult rationalism...why do you think we spend more money on tried and true games? WE DON'T KNOW ANY BETTER BECAUSE OUR EXPERIANCE TELLS US THAT THERE IS ONLY 3 GAMES...Violence, Simulators, Boring as Crap for 13+ and 7+ (if they only knew better).
"

Thats mostly true. As for everything else you said in your post, that's a bit extreme. I don't think that parents are totally clueless, I just think they might not know enough about their child's life to make rational decisions for them.


Im only "Apolloed" In Spirit
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Jeku
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Posted: 1st Jun 2005 08:33 Edited at: 1st Jun 2005 08:34
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Quote: " @jeku
Hey...you really are single minded now are you."


Well I do have just a single brain, so yes, I must be single minded.

Quote: "You honestly believe that parents, clingers of times old and gone, are better cope to live in this world."


Yes. Anyone with half a brain can tell you that an adult is better able to cope in this world by themselves than a 13 year old kid. You're arguing against this?

Quote: "In real life, if someone takes out a knife and threatens you with it, you have every right to defend yourself, however in parents land, they say, just sit there and don't do anything physical, you might bleed to death but you won't have gotten in trouble."


Not any parents I know. My dad taught me how to fight when I was 11. Not everyone grew up as sheltered as you obviously did

Quote: "Sure, video games influence peoples lives. But if as many people who buy FPS' lived it out, we would be a big heap of steaming dead bodies. And no one has any chance in hell of acheiving any of the 'moves' in fight games, they might hurt themselves, but they will learn."


I'm not disagreeing with you about video games, that's the funny part. I was playing violent video games at a young age too. Wolf3D came out when I was 11 or 12, and I didn't shoot people.

Quote: "Really all this is the parent's fault for being incompetant or not giving, either one works. The fact is that most parents have little understanding of things. They see something diffrent and freak out. Heck some parents believe video games to be the 'root of all evil'."


Ah, another one of those "blame the parents" advocates. Your arguments are very tired. And yes I agree that some parents believe video games are evil. My friend wasn't allowed to watch Tom & Jerry when he was in high school because of the violence! I don't agree with that, BUT as long as you're under your parents' roof, you should respect them enough to do what they say. No matter what you say, you really can't change my mind about parents being smarter than their 13 year old kids... no point in arguing it :-P

Quote: "And really, parents think whats best as them. They don't think of the child who was left out, they think of what, as a parent, they need as a child. Indirect experiance, and all their child hood memorys over wrote with adult rationalism...why do you think we spend more money on tried and true games? WE DON'T KNOW ANY BETTER BECAUSE OUR EXPERIANCE TELLS US THAT THERE IS ONLY 3 GAMES...Violence, Simulators, Boring as Crap for 13+ and 7+ (if they only knew better)."


I *kind* of understand where you're going with this, but the sentences don't make a whole lot of sense to tell you the truth. Anyways, I can only use my own parents as examples as obviously they are my only set of parents. If I had a problem at school with, say, a girl that wouldn't call me back, I would talk to my dad about it and he would relate a story about himself that followed along the same lines as my own problem. It helped me to see that ALL of my problems are normal humanhood problems that ALL kids go through. You see, his "wisdown", although maybe not apparent at the time, is incredibly showing now when I think back on it.


--[R.O.B.O.I. and FireTris Coming Soon]--
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