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Geek Culture / [LOCKED] Americans: you were lied to - lets forget partisanship and demand answers!

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David T
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Posted: 12th Jun 2005 20:24 Edited at: 12th Jun 2005 20:25
Quote: "Quote: "Stop watching FOX news"
Spoken like someone who truly gets it! Cheers."


Hit the nail on the head

We get FOX News here.. only US channel we do get - I hope the rest are better. FOX News might as well rename itself "Republican News".


Quote: "Look at the UN now.. it looks like a joke. What's the point in a United Nation if the major power doesn't respect it's decision? Terms of our nations are shattered there, and our credibility of siding against our European friends was also broken.

How is the United States more important than our home relations? A nation that has stabbed us in the back many times during history.. all of this self-righteous BS about terrorism, what did they forget that over a 30 year period they were giving financial aid to a terrorist organisation (IRA) bend on killing the English? Did they forget they gave financial aid to Iran who STARTED the Iraqi conflict back in the last 80s? Did they forget they funded several Middle-Eastern Terrorist Cells in order to serve thier own interests?

Someone pays them back for the 'help' they've given over the years, and suddenly it's an unthinkable act against the 'nicest' nation in the whole damn world."


Thought provoking.

I still like that George Galloway quote

"A book. If u know something why cant u make a kool game or prog.
come on now. A book. I hate books. book is stupid. I know that I need codes but I dont know the codes"
Ian T
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Posted: 13th Jun 2005 00:31
The UN made itself a joke when it failed to act on, what, 18, 19 resolutions it had laid down on Iraq before. It was an ineffectual and outdated institution long before the Iraq situation brought it to light. If a council of world leaders cannot reach an agreement months after a promised deadline, time and time again, who is going to take them seriously?

Accusing the US of wrecking the UN is like accusing a passenger for crashing a major overseas flight because they were being disruptive during the crash.

Raven
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Posted: 13th Jun 2005 04:13
Quote: "Wake up to reality, you can't judge an entire country based on what you observe over in your neck of the woods and on the news."


I spent 5years in your country in several different areas.
The respect I have for the American people is very little as a result.. the whole nation is based around providing an image of themselves. A nice friendly nation, who is just so nice and close knit.

But then you actually bother sitting down and observing the nation.
Don't give me any BS about the 'tolerance' of the people, there os no real tolerance for any other race .. as far as your conserned if someone is from a 'given' nation immediately they are treated like the stereotype you see; in order to keep trouble from happening you have to make sure you seperate everyone. You can't have hispanics living in the same area if as the Anglos. You can't have the Jewish living in the same area as the Catholics.

In Ireland you can respect why this is the case, there is a reason for it. What's the reason in the United States?
Where's the reasoning behind tolerance when some gay kid is locked in a church for several hours; doesn't like how he's treated so rather than feeling like the police will actually do anything feels that getting together with his gay buddies to start a protest against anyone with homophobia and have yet another band of people singled out because of a few retarded morons is the best way to get something done.

Or how about just going into a store or resturant.. you ask for something and your waiter is all nice and perky. I WTF, this guy has been on his feet 12hrs, he's about as perky as Charles Manson. I don't want my shop assistant BSing me to get some dumbass commision, I don't want my waiter's eye twitching at me each time he tries to make a pleasentry.

No, but that's how things work isn't it. No matter how aweful your life is.. you must make sure that everyone around you sees a happy face. No matter how predudice is, those from the outside must see how 'tolerant' you are.

The United States wants to HELP THE WORLD... but it can't even get [censored] right in it's own damn boarders! Who the hell says that the United States way is the right way? Well??
This is the damn problem too, your going out there forcing your way of life on other cultures because you think thier own is bad.

Why? Did you ever stop to ask them: Would you like to live the American Dream? Hell try asking some of your own citizens sometime. Doubt you'd get a positive answer.

Quote: "The UN made itself a joke when it failed to act on, what, 18, 19 resolutions it had laid down on Iraq before. It was an ineffectual and outdated institution long before the Iraq situation brought it to light. If a council of world leaders cannot reach an agreement months after a promised deadline, time and time again, who is going to take them seriously?

Accusing the US of wrecking the UN is like accusing a passenger for crashing a major overseas flight because they were being disruptive during the crash."


The United Nations wanted to make sure that checks were properly conducted. Despite what the President and News told you, what Saddam and Iraq has done wasn't delaying tactics.. if you want to think of it; it's like when you come home from school and find that your bedroom door has been forceably opened.

Why? Because your mom thought for some reason your doing drugs. So that immediately gives her a right to turn over your room, without asking permission for entry. Just because your not actually hiding anything or guilty of what they're accusing you off; you get quickly aggrovated because your privacy is being broken on someone's hunch. Does she have any possible evidence to back this claim up? No but she is going to search regardless.

The end result is your standing there getting stressed trying to explain to her she doesn't need to throw your cloths about your room trying to find something that isn't there.

This is the same on a grander scale. Saddam could never have gone to war, the UN knew this. Otherwise they would've sent in the peacekeepers to forecably do the checks. While the UN did over the past 10years find things which Iraq shouldn't have had.. it wasn't what they were expecting to find or any external threat.

Like say your mom finds your secret stash of porno. Yeah you'll get some looks, but it's just a magazine; nothing bad or illegal about it per say.

That's the situation. But rather than letting it being resolved peacefully and without bloodshed that neitherside wanted the US got impatient and stormed in. The result thousands dead on both sides and relations shattered. Did they find what they claimed Saddam had?
No, they only found his stash of porno. Rather than apologising for the actions they took, the United States declared it as some 'victory over terrorism'.

Yeah way to go retards.. next time you wanna try actually fighting a battle that conserns you? No I don't agree with how Saddam ruled his country or what he had done over the years.

Fact of the matter is, it was Iraqi's internal affair. There was no right for us to interfere. That is what our 'superior' morals dictate is it not? That we cannot fight every little mans battle for them, but pick and choose to help keep our way of life safe.

Eric T
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Posted: 13th Jun 2005 04:21
Quote: "We get FOX News here.. only US channel we do get - I hope the rest are better. FOX News might as well rename itself "Republican News".
"


No actually... they all suck

All the channels do, rip off british shows (usually with new names and washout celebs...) and do reality shows. And report biased news, almost forgot that.

I usually find myself watching the same 5 episodes of The Office (for some reason we don't get much of an assortment it seems) on BBC-America most of the time

Speaking of The Office... NBC ripped it off

Anyway, enough off topic stuff, back to the topic:

Bush is a poopoohead, tehehehe

LEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEROY JENKINS!!
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BearCDPOLD
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Posted: 13th Jun 2005 04:37 Edited at: 13th Jun 2005 04:38
Where the hell were you staying all those five years Raven?

Your waiter talk is a load of cock. They work in a service job, even in Monty Python's the Meaning of Life the waiter has a monologue about going into a life of service as a waiter. How would you appreciate it if you sat down to get some pasta and this waiter comes and starts bitching to you about his life? Not all waiters are all smiles, either.

What if some of us are prejudiced against some group? Shall we go start another organization similar to the KKK just because we feel that it's important not to hide behind a mask of deceit we'd create for ourselves, as you seem to put it. It's called decency. Even if you think such and such is a damned <insert racial or religious slur here> doesn't mean you have to go and tell that to their face. Maybe brits like you need to pull whatever it is you have out of your asses, stop being so goddamned self-righteous (like the plague that is sweeping over America at the moment, how ironic), and smile for once.

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Ian T
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Posted: 13th Jun 2005 04:40 Edited at: 13th Jun 2005 04:43
Raven that is easily the most insipid, inane, bigoted piece of trash I have read all month. Since your post is essentialy one big crappy generalization attempting to justify your ludicrous prejudice I don't think it even merits a formal reply, but for god's sake, keep the crap level down or I'll have to start filtering your posts out of this thread. If you want to vent against a government that's fine, but keep your twisted biases to yourself in a otherwise intelligent debate.

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David T
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Posted: 13th Jun 2005 04:44
Quote: "I usually find myself watching the same 5 episodes of The Office (for some reason we don't get much of an assortment it seems) on BBC-America most of the time "


Yeah, British Office is the best.

They only did two series.. about 7 episodes each. Good things come in small packages

Quote: "Speaking of The Office... NBC ripped it off "


Yeah, seen it. Awful!

"A book. If u know something why cant u make a kool game or prog.
come on now. A book. I hate books. book is stupid. I know that I need codes but I dont know the codes"
Jimmy
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Posted: 13th Jun 2005 04:45
Quote: "but keep your twisted biases to yourself in a otherwise intelligent debate."


Quote: "Bush is a poopoohead, tehehehe"


Ian T
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Posted: 13th Jun 2005 04:46 Edited at: 13th Jun 2005 04:58
Quote: "All the channels do, rip off british shows"


All the channels do these days is recycle ideas from other stations/countries/decades. Same with movies and games. Nobody wants to make new material. It's ridiculous

Jimmy->

If someone despises Bush that's their business. If on the other hand they want to get away with ranting about how an entire nation of people is <insert negative word / coin to begin>, that's something entirely different. I'd be pissed at Eric too if he just posted "OMG, all the Iranians are evil pigs!"

Well, I would be if I thought he was serious

Everyone else in this thread apart from Raven so far has not had a problem discriminating between a government, a nation, a culture and a populace; he doesn't seem to know the difference.

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Jimmy
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Posted: 13th Jun 2005 05:55
No, I wasn't referring to his opinion, I was referring to the way he said it

Ian T
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Posted: 13th Jun 2005 05:57
I stand pwnt

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Eric T
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Posted: 13th Jun 2005 06:16
Hehehe.... crap

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Benjamin
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Posted: 13th Jun 2005 06:45
Quote: "Your waiter talk is a load of cock. They work in a service job, even in Monty Python's the Meaning of Life the waiter has a monologue about going into a life of service as a waiter. How would you appreciate it if you sat down to get some pasta and this waiter comes and starts bitching to you about his life?"

He was just using that as an example. I know what Raven is saying, and I wouldn't expect an American to understand.


"Lets migrate like bricks" - Me
CattleRustler
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Posted: 13th Jun 2005 08:50
Quote: "Fox news is extremely right winged. Just remember, they have Hannity (poor poor colmes, he is such a bitch). That and they have Newt Gingrich and Ann Coulter on quite regularly."


and don't forget that despicable liar O'Reilly, teeheehee

Mouse, you were correct, Raven's blithering tyraids require no formal response, except to say I wonder how many americans here have elders in their families that were mamed or killed in WWII. Was America so despicable then? When i-don't-know-how-many American's gave their lives to liberate France from German pwntness, and undoubtedly protect England from the next logical step. You should be ashamed of yourself. Please stay there in the UK (sorry to all my friends in the UK, you guys are the dogs arse bullocks) we don't want you here.

DBP - AirAmericaRadio.com - MoveOn.org - The news has been cancelled!
Ian T
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Posted: 13th Jun 2005 09:24
I can wholeheartedly agree with you there.

Actually, on O'Rielly and Hannity, too

(Coulter needs no commentary)

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Raven
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Posted: 13th Jun 2005 10:07
Quote: "except to say I wonder how many americans here have elders in their families that were mamed or killed in WWII. Was America so despicable then? When i-don't-know-how-many American's gave their lives to liberate France from German pwntness, and undoubtedly protect England from the next logical step. You should be ashamed of yourself. Please stay there in the UK (sorry to all my friends in the UK, you guys are the dogs arse bullocks) we don't want you here."


A war that Britain stood and fought to protect it's allies since it began. A war that when America was asked to help as allies they refused until the war came to thier own shores. A war we fought because it was the right thing to do, not because we felt threatened.

The actions of brave men laying down thier lives for thier country is not the same as a country who was helping to fight for the freedom of it's friends.

Andy
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Posted: 13th Jun 2005 10:21 Edited at: 13th Jun 2005 10:22
>Was America so despicable then? When i-don't-know-how-many
>American's gave their lives to liberate France from German
>pwntness, and undoubtedly protect England from the next logical
>step.

Are US history lessons really that bad? US military casualties in europe and asia combined were 350,000. Really not that many in the big scheme of things.

The US landed in Europe well after Stalingrad, so Germany was not in any position to invade England. They could hold the conquered teritories, but not much more.

>You should be ashamed of yourself. Please stay there in the UK
>(sorry to all my friends in the UK, you guys are the dogs arse
>bullocks) we don't want you here.

You can't really expect people to be grateful for what is mostly a hollywood invention. What people should be grateful for, is that the brits and the yanks decided to fight the war the way they did, had the war been allowed to continue, it is possible that Germany would have developed atomic weapons and longrange rockets. Now that would have been interesting.

Andy
Ian T
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Posted: 13th Jun 2005 12:30
Yeah, 350,000 men dead. Phhhht, big deal, who cares.

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Raven
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Posted: 13th Jun 2005 12:59
Quote: "Yeah, 350,000 men dead. Phhhht, big deal, who cares."


Try looking at the total lost by each of the other nations within the 5years period the war lasted.

I have over 12 family members who personally participated in World War 2, just because they came back alive doesn't mean they fought any less than any other man. You would do well to respect those dead than trying to use them as some way to set an argumentative point of 'we saved your asses in World War 2' type point.

A conflict that America never knew the real horrors of. America was never bombed over and over, your ancestors weren't rationed, they weren't afraid to leave thier houses in-case a german fell from the sky.

: hmph :

Jimmy
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Posted: 13th Jun 2005 13:07
Quote: "A conflict that America never knew the real horrors of. America was never bombed over and over, your ancestors weren't rationed, they weren't afraid to leave thier houses in-case a german fell from the sky."


That's because Americans aren't pussies.

WHAT WHAT

Raven
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Posted: 13th Jun 2005 13:49
Quote: "That's because Americans aren't pussies.

WHAT WHAT"


oh so that's why everyone had a fall-out shelter
i was begining to wonder

Jimmy
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Posted: 13th Jun 2005 15:36
When I say 'Americans' I exclude Cattle's relatives.

BearCDPOLD
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Posted: 13th Jun 2005 16:31 Edited at: 13th Jun 2005 16:33
I looked up statistics. Most sources say the following:

UK=403,000
US=407,000

Another site, however, says that the US had only 6,000 civilian casualties while the UK had 92,700. That makes sense because of the attacks on London and such.


That's one of the quickest ones people pull when bashing Americans. I've had family members that served in World War 2. I know of one in particular, but I don't know of everyone because the family tree branches off in all directions, that one is my grandfather who died in service. We still have his funeral flag. My great great grandfather was booted out of Germany in the 20's or 30's because he was a member of the Federalist party. My Uncle and Aunt were in the military, mostly in medical as they weren't in service during a major war, my cousin was in Kuwait, my grandfather in the airforce, my great Uncle in the marines, and that's all that I know of because family splits.

If any of your relatives who died during World War 2 could see what you were typing now they'd be ashamed.

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Raven
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Posted: 13th Jun 2005 17:19
Quote: "If any of your relatives who died during World War 2 could see what you were typing now they'd be ashamed."


What exactly would they be ashamed of? That I don't agree that American's saved the world during the war?

I wouldn't hold your breath on that one.. most of my family actually feels alot stronger about what America takes credit for, how they've "helped" us over the years, and all that junk.

Sorry but while I respect the soliders that fought anf died during the war; I don't respect the attitudes of thier ancestors. Who see the war as some sort of 'American badge of honour' because they FINALLY decided to joing in.. ya know once they were actually attacked. Oh and I'm sure the Genocide of a beaten country was completely necessary.

Those who were involved in the Manhatten project or survived World War 2, generally don't see it the same way people do today. You can't imagine what it was like back then... hell I can only assume from the short stints I spent in Serbia during the 1996. Seeing from the outside in just isn't the same though.

People today see it more as some pride pissing contest.. no respect at all for those who laid down thier lives or put thier lives on the line to defeat what they saw as the biggest evil and threat this world had ever seen.

I'm appauled at the comments I hear about 'France being saved by the Americans'... BOLLOCKS, if it wasn't for thier intelligence during the war what Britian was doing and what later the Americans helped with, would never have succeeded with such small losses of life.

While no half a million doesn't seem small; Britian and France lost more than that during a single engagement called 'Battle of the Somme' in World War 1. Not that the Americans were willing to help out back then either.. Claim to be our friends, yet never give help unless it benefits themselves; and have even gone as far as to finance and even ARM terrorist cells that were setting thier sights on the english public.

So yeah, forgive me if I don't feel that American patriotic fuzzy warm feeling right here in my heart whenever someone else decides to start trying to boast how great and awesome a country it is.

David T
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Posted: 13th Jun 2005 17:50
Before we just argue over figures, spare a though for Russia who lost more than any other nation. In Belarus 3/4 of the population of Minsk was killed.

"A book. If u know something why cant u make a kool game or prog.
come on now. A book. I hate books. book is stupid. I know that I need codes but I dont know the codes"
Eric T
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Posted: 13th Jun 2005 18:04
I think its time for a joke!

How many frenchmen does it take to defend Paris?



/me goes into hiding.

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Van B
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Posted: 13th Jun 2005 21:13
Sure WWII started when Pearl Harbour got bombed, IIRC Ben Affleck won the war in the end, and managed to save all his buddies in the process.

Really, Americans should stop talking about history, because it's always that sideways history that America has and it annoys the hell outta every other nation because it always casts the US in this exagerated light. I can almost imagine history teachers in the US, flicking through the pages until they get to the good bit where America get's involved.

I honestly think that Britain is the only country to show it's history in it's true form, no hiding, no excuses, no misleading schoolkids, no dropping out facts to save face - just the truth, or as close to it as we can get.


Van-B

Raven
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Posted: 13th Jun 2005 21:24
Quote: "I honestly think that Britain is the only country to show it's history in it's true form, no hiding, no excuses, no misleading schoolkids, no dropping out facts to save face - just the truth, or as close to it as we can get."


heh.. yeah ^_^ though imagine how short history lessons would be if they only told us the good stuff.

'erm, we had one king.. erm once, he was kinda good.. buggered off on a crusade leaving his brother who was clueless in charge of the country.. erm. you don't really wanna know much of the rest.' heh

Andy
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Posted: 13th Jun 2005 21:59 Edited at: 13th Jun 2005 22:00
>Yeah, 350,000 men dead. Phhhht, big deal, who cares.

It is a big deal, but really not that many in the big scheme of things. The USSR lost more than 15 million civilians and 11 million military to WW2. That's 30 times as many military and 65 times more dead total. And the USSR also inflicted almost 80 percent of the german casualties, so by the time the US landed in europe, they only had to fight a few elite units, some poorly trained italian units and the german reserves(children and old men).

And never forget that americans and brits went to POW camps as they were caught, while slavs were usually executed on sight, starved to death in makeshift camps or put into work camps to be worked to death. Just in the period 1940-1942, almost 2.8 million soviet POWs in german camps were starved to death.

I'm not saying that the US didn't help in europe, but the reality is that the US dealt with the japanese emperor, while the USSR dealt with the German Führer.

Andy
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Posted: 13th Jun 2005 23:31 Edited at: 13th Jun 2005 23:33
is it skewed or misleading that americans died in europe in wwII? Right. Oh wait only 350,000 died (or whatever number was mentioned), sorry that wasnt enough. First we are barbarians rushing to war, then we didnt do enough, then we didnt join sooner, then we started it, then we ended it, then we committed genocide on a beaten nation - blah blah blah. Make up your minds. Most estimates put the numbers around 1 million to 1.5 million MORE dead, had we not ended the war in Asia via atomic bomb. Now thats not to say its a wonderful thing to be proud of (dropping abombs) because I am not. But maybe it was the lesser of two evils-maybe not? I dont know, this is the sickness of war - inevitably people die, soldiers, civilians, etc.

Raven, shall I go back and requote your original drivel compared to what you're saying now, or have you already edited it?

Jimmy, I still love you.

Van, if the history taught here is so wrong, and the UK is the beholder of the almighty infinite wisdom and truth then why complain about us and the way we think? According to you we were brainwashed from childhood. At this point I would welcome "liberation", come on over.

And I never said anything along the lines of "we saved UK and france's ass...blah blah" nor did I imply it. All I said was that americans joined WWII and plenty of US troops died over there helping liberate france. Which was in direct response to Raven's mindless spew. He's lived here for 5 years and he's now an expert on American society - roflVOMIT

DBP - AirAmericaRadio.com - MoveOn.org - The news has been cancelled!
Raven
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Posted: 14th Jun 2005 00:04
Quote: "Raven, shall I go back and requote your original drivel compared to what you're saying now, or have you already edited it?"


do as you please.. my comments haven't changed.

Quote: "And I never said anything along the lines of "we saved UK and france's ass...blah blah" nor did I imply it. All I said was that americans joined WWII and plenty of US troops died over there helping liberate france. Which was in direct response to Raven's mindless spew. He's lived here for 5 years and he's now an expert on American society."


if your going to start trying to quote my posts, perhaps you should recheck your own.. and those made by others in this thread.

the fact that american's put on for the world isn't the same face as what they have for everyone living there. just seem totally oblivious to the fact of how false the culture is there.. it's hard to see something when your part of it day by day. you get used to it, and eventually it becomes normal.

i grew up in a very quiet area; so whenever i have to stay in some noisey hotel or something.. i just can't sleep, it took a while to get used to it when i had an apartment over a busy highstreet; but eventually i did; then i didn't even notice it.

problem is your not just too blinded by things being normality, but you'd rather close your ears and hum your national anthem than believe anything from anyone else. it's not that you don't understand what is being said, it's that you don't want to..

no instead you wanted to bring WW2 into the mix; as if somehow ONE action throughout history somehow absolves everything else. That's how your using it too.. not in an honour of those who died, but as some be-all-end-all arugment point. like some big ol' one up man ship; yet you'll no doubt continue to ignore what Andy has said about the Russians; and what I has also said about the Russians.

Still see it all as that cold war mentality do we? I mean it does go to strengthen my original point though doesn't it.

Ian T
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Posted: 14th Jun 2005 00:35 Edited at: 14th Jun 2005 01:52
Quote: "You would do well to respect those dead than trying to use them as some way to set an argumentative point of 'we saved your asses in World War 2' type point."


We did 'save your asses', just as you saved ours. Britain, the USSR and the US were all wholly neccesary for defeating Germany in WWII-- the USSR took more civilian and military losses but that does not make the other nations insignificant. Without forces from every Allied nation the war would have been dragged on years longer; the Nazis may even have won.

You would do well to respect the dead by pulling your head out of your prejudiced ass and realizing that a dead soldier from the UK is no more, and every bit as much, a hero as one from any other country.

Quote: "A conflict that America never knew the real horrors of."


Ooops, your bigotry is showing! Just... yeah, right there!

Wake up: Virtually nobody alive in the world today knows the horrors of World War II. Maybe your dad or granddad was a war hero-- it doesn't matter, stories do not equate to being there. A well studied college student in New York knows every bit as much about WWII and its horrors than you or most of the world ever will. You do not have some birthright of War Hero-ness. You do not have some magic blood in your veins that takes you back to the terrors your ancestors faced. You have no right to speak as if you know more of war because your genetic makeup happens to more closely resemble that of the British soldiers and civilians who fought in WWII. Grow up.



Quote: "Who see the war as some sort of 'American badge of honour' because they FINALLY decided to joing in.. ya know once they were actually attacked."


WWII is too late, Vietnam we never should have been there, Korea was a waste of time, Iraq we're too early. It's never good enough and it never can be. The world will always hate the largest country. It has always been that way and it always will be.

Quote: " hell I can only assume from the short stints I spent in Serbia during the 1996."


Was that while you were participating in your Jedi Master training and simultaniously teaching John Carmack how to make Quake 2 properly?


Quote: "
Really, Americans should stop talking about history, because it's always that sideways history that America has and it annoys the hell outta every other nation"


Frankly Van I feel this is nothing but the world's bias against the largest nation. Every nation teaches histories in which that country has a slightly larger role than they did historically; I don't think there's much wrong with that.

And furthermore, unless you've actually been to school in the US, why do you presume to know more about what they teach than people who have gone through the entire US school system?

Quote: "I'm not saying that the US didn't help in europe, but the reality is that the US dealt with the japanese emperor, while the USSR dealt with the German Führer."


Yes, I'm aware of that. Nobody said 'OMG OMG UNITED STATES PWNED HITLER'-- you and Raven, however, are obviously having a great time reading that out of every other sentance everyone else writes.


Raven your final post once again does not even merit a point by point answer. You seem to think that everyone born in a country has some kind of honor debt to pay off for their government's sins, is a complete clone of the idiotic stereotype you carry around in your head and is responsible for every little tiny thing someone else who happened to be born on the same landmass does.

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Andy
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Posted: 14th Jun 2005 00:48
>is it skewed or misleading that americans died in europe in wwII?

Nope!

>Right. Oh wait only 350,000 died (or whatever number was
>mentioned), sorry that wasnt enough.

One was too many.

It's not about the numbers. The reason people quote numbers is because some americans seem to think that everyone from europe should be eternally grateful to the US.

When I see that attitude, it makes me sad, because as the numbers show, whatever gratitude we owe the US, we owe 30-60 times as much to the USSR. When somebody points that out, many americans will become outright angry because they were taught to believe that the US defeated Germany during WW2.

When I travel to northamerica, I am very careful not to bring up any subjects like WW2, Iraq, Vietnam etc. However, often americans bring it up themselves, and I have met people who insisted that the US population was in the billions and that the US lost 25 million people in WW2 compared to Russia(Apparently very few americans know the difference between Russia and the USSR) losing less than half a million. I even met a guy that insisted that the US fought both Japan, Germany and 'Russia' during WW2 and won.

These people are not poor uneducated people, but college graduates with succesful businesses. If that's the level of education, then I am worried.

Andy
Ian T
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Posted: 14th Jun 2005 00:54
Quote: "However, often americans bring it up themselves, and I have met people who insisted that the US population was in the billions and that the US lost 25 million people in WW2 compared to Russia(Apparently very few americans know the difference between Russia and the USSR) losing less than half a million. I even met a guy that insisted that the US fought both Japan, Germany and 'Russia' during WW2 and won."


Some day I'd like to meet this Bizarro America I hear about from time to time. It's a place where everyone is filled with patriotic pride, loves their government and carries misconceptions about their country's involvement in WWII.

I am but a humble citizen who has only lived in two places on opposite sides of America in his life, but I have never, in my entire life, heard anyone spew out that kind of crap, Andy. I'm sure there are people stupid enough to do so all over the place, but if they did so in public I have every confidence they would be upbraided within an inch of their life for it. Our education system may not be great but it's sure as hell better than that. I don't know if people make these stories up or if they just happen to travel to areas in the country which are filled by idiots, but it is markedly odd that I keep hearing about how the country is filled with insipid, uneducated, patriotic hicks, but I've lived here my entire life and never met more than a handful.

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Andy
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Posted: 14th Jun 2005 01:05 Edited at: 14th Jun 2005 01:10
>Mouse<

I would expect a moderator to handle him/herself with a little more decorum and atleast abide by the 'Acceptable Usage Policy' of this forum.

You can find the 'Acceptable Usage Policy' here if you haven't read it: http://www.thegamecreators.com/?gf=aup

>it is markedly odd that I keep hearing about how the country is
>filled with insipid, uneducated, patriotic hicks, but I've lived
>here my entire life and never met more than a handful.

Perhaps you are just a lucky person... Did you ever think of that. Someone who always choses the fastest line at the postoffice, always manages to drive through the lights before they turn red and ALWAYS manages to get to the drugstore before they close!

And for the record, I never make things up. Life is so that i've never needed to!


Andy
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Posted: 14th Jun 2005 01:31 Edited at: 14th Jun 2005 01:38
Quote: "Some day I'd like to meet this Bizarro America I hear about from time to time."


Mouse, you have, thats Jimmy

As for the other misconceptions: I don't know how many ways to say that I never said that anyone owed America a debt of gratitude for WWII, others implied that that's what I meant. There are plenty of idiots in this country, and plenty of people who think like that, I don't. I brought up WWII to prove how evil, disconcerned, conceited, predjudiced (and every other adjective Raven aspires to spell) we americans really are. Pfft.

DBP - AirAmericaRadio.com - MoveOn.org - The news has been cancelled!
Ian T
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Posted: 14th Jun 2005 01:37 Edited at: 14th Jun 2005 01:38
Quote: "Mouse, you have, thats Jimmy "


Oh, touche

Andy->

I'm aware my posts are somewhat out of line. I've contacted the other moderators about it and asked them to deal with the thread as they see fit. I don't think I should lock it at this point because I'm too involved in the thread to do so. And technically I should never have posted anything that caustic in the first place, but frankly I'm a bit too annoyed to care right now.

I'll take your word for it that you don't make stuff up. Maybe I am lucky. My point is just that there's a very significant difference between the US population you describe and the one I've lived in my entire life. Not drawing any conclusions - just observing.

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Benjamin
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Posted: 14th Jun 2005 01:45 Edited at: 14th Jun 2005 01:59
Quote: "Wake up a**hole: Virtually nobody alive in the world today knows the horrors of World War II"

What, and you think you do? Try to keep the flames to yourself; if you can't debate properly, don't try and join in with the debating.

Quote: "but I've lived here my entire life and never met more than a handful."

As Raven said before(and I said far back in this thread) it is impossible for an American to understand, primarily because you have nothing to differentiate with.


"Lets migrate like bricks" - Me
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Posted: 14th Jun 2005 02:03 Edited at: 14th Jun 2005 02:08
Spoken like a true frenchman.

Its funny how the people from the countries the US helped are the biggest supporters of the "America sucks" campaign.


Anyway, back on topic: The Conyers petition must have exceeded 500,000 signatures. I dont see the count posted on the site anymore, it was just under 500,000 over the weekend, and they were saying (for some reason) that .5 mill was the "goal". Originally 100k was the goal but then AirAmerica and MoveOn.org got involved and the numbers blasted up. Can't wait to see what goes on this Thursday in DC.

DBP - AirAmericaRadio.com - MoveOn.org - The news has been cancelled!
Benjamin
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Posted: 14th Jun 2005 02:21
Quote: " Spoken like a true frenchman.

Its funny how the people from the countries the US helped are the biggest supporters of the "America sucks" campaign."

I didn't mean to offend you, and I'm sorry if you took it that way, I was simply explaining why you couldn't possibly understand what Raven is saying.


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Jimmy
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Posted: 14th Jun 2005 02:29
Quote: "Spoken like a true frenchman."


Benji's not french.

Quote: "As Raven said before(and I said far back in this thread) it is impossible for an American to understand, primarily because you have nothing to differentiate with."


I think both sides of this stupid arguement are on the outside looking in, and neither really has anything to differentiate with.

Quote: "Really, Americans should stop talking about history, because it's always that sideways history that America has and it annoys the hell outta every other nation because it always casts the US in this exagerated light. I can almost imagine history teachers in the US, flicking through the pages until they get to the good bit where America get's involved."


I agree with ya here Van. But you'll be happy to know that things get better after high school. I took a college US history course this past winter and I wasn't too shocked to realize how fluffy the high school material was. American propoganda. But now I've been to a liberally-biased institution of higher learning and have been properly Europeanized.

Quote: "no instead you wanted to bring WW2 into the mix; as if somehow ONE action throughout history somehow absolves everything else. That's how your using it too.. not in an honour of those who died, but as some be-all-end-all arugment point. like some big ol' one up man ship; yet you'll no doubt continue to ignore what Andy has said about the Russians; and what I has also said about the Russians."


I randomly copied and pasted this. I have not actually read it, nor will I ever. But Raven needed quoting in this post, it itched at me. Raven you're an idiot and don't post crap like this again.

Anyhow, let's all be happy for CR's dorking street memo.

David T
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Posted: 14th Jun 2005 02:31
Quote: "The reason people quote numbers is because some americans seem to think that everyone from europe should be eternally grateful to the US."


Quote: "Its funny how the people from the countries the US helped are the biggest supporters of the "America sucks" campaign."




For the record, I don't think American people suck (most are nice).

The foreign policy sucks.

Some of the right wing views on the world suck.

Renaming 'French Fries' 'Freedom fries' just because France wouldn't join in with an illegal war sucks. (damn right they were too, look where UK is now - 10th most likely place to be bombed by terrorists or something)

But, I repeat, the majority of the people do not 'suck'.

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come on now. A book. I hate books. book is stupid. I know that I need codes but I dont know the codes"
Benjamin
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Posted: 14th Jun 2005 02:35 Edited at: 14th Jun 2005 02:37
Quote: "I think both sides of this stupid arguement are on the outside looking in, and neither really has anything to differentiate with."

I know plenty of people that would disagree with you.


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Ian T
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Posted: 14th Jun 2005 02:38
Quote: "Renaming 'French Fries' 'Freedom fries' just because France wouldn't join in with an illegal war sucks."


Seriously, hardy anyone participated in that silly thing. It wasn't government endorsed either. It did catch on some places though, which I admit is scary because it's so stupid

Quote: " it is impossible for an American to understand"


'I say, the 295,734,134 people living within the borders of the United States are collectively incapable of understanding this war because they have all been thoroughly brainwashed upon becoming citizens!' Do you realize how ridiculous these generalizations are?

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Jimmy
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Posted: 14th Jun 2005 02:39 Edited at: 14th Jun 2005 02:43
Quote: "Renaming 'French Fries' 'Freedom fries'"


I eat them, rather than give them pet names. I think that happened in one restaurant and it hit the news and went out internationally. Then some others hopped on the bandwagon, but it was never made official or anything. Freedom TOAST on the other hand, that's in the 28th amendment.

Quote: "Quote: "I think both sides of this stupid arguement are on the outside looking in, and neither really has anything to differentiate with."
I know plenty of people that would disagree with you.
"


Well then I have no respect for what they have to say. I mean, what you're saying is that Americans need to venture into Europe, then acquire the same prejudice you all seem to have. I'll be the first to admit our faults, but until you are born and raised here, you have no right to imply that you DO have something to differentiate with.

Benjamin
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Posted: 14th Jun 2005 02:43 Edited at: 14th Jun 2005 02:48
Quote: "'I say, the 295,734,134 people living within the borders of the United States are collectively incapable of understanding this war because they have all been thoroughly brainwashed upon becoming citizens!' Do you realize how ridiculous these generalizations are?"

Either I posted a bit late, or you totally do not know what I was refering to.... But reading back, I see that Raven's last post is the one I agree with, minus the part about the war(not that I disagree, I just wasn't refering to that).

Quote: "Well then I have no respect for what they have to say. I mean, what you're saying is that Americans need to venture into Europe, then acquire the same prejudice you all seem to have."

I don't know what you are getting so uptight about. I'm not slagging off America, I am agreeing that there is a major difference between Britain and America's people. I don't think theres anything wrong with that, thats just how they are. I was stating that you wouldn't understand, thats all. I don't exactly see much point to what Raven said (or why it matters that we are very different people), although I agree that the British and the Americans are very different people.


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Dazzag
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Posted: 14th Jun 2005 02:50
Quote: "I don't respect the attitudes of thier ancestors"
Heh heh I assume they didn't give a monkeys about WWII. Unless they had a time machine of course.

Quote: "Some day I'd like to meet this Bizarro America I hear about from time to time. It's a place where everyone is filled with patriotic pride, loves their government and carries misconceptions about their country's involvement in WWII."
Yeah, got to love what people assume about other countries. For example I don't *always* wear a top hat to work, and only use my cane when the servant wenches have done a sloppy job cleaning the dishes Saying that, the only flag I've *ever* seen outside a house in England or Wales (I'm Welsh) on a regular basis (not World Cup or such) is down the road where some bloke has a Scottish flag that sometimes turns into a Reading FC flag every now and again (actually has a full on flag pole and everything - really fits in well ). And most people only sing the national anthem when p*ssed up and watching an international football game. Unlike pretty much every reality TV program we see these days of the US, which pretty much gives us the idea that flag poles and US flags come as part of your house or something. Unless of course this is just to posh up a bit for the TV cameras, dunno.

As to slagging off the US and everything, hasn't England been to war with pretty much every country on earth at one time or another? Sure I read it's only a handfull left. Did a good job of taking over half the world too (then giving it back again). I can say these things as I'm not really English. And we are better at Rugby again.....

Cheers

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Ian T
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Posted: 14th Jun 2005 02:52 Edited at: 14th Jun 2005 02:59
I have to disagree. IMO, a human is a human. You could switch the minds of a two babies born in two completely different cultures at birth and nobody would be the wiser. Everyone is born the same and most people in Western culture grow up much the same way. The culture of their country will have some effect on their political sensibilities, knowledge, sense of humor, etc etc etc, but with modern technology uniting 90% of the world's population via phone networks, television and the internet, the world's cultures are becoming less and less polarized. A kid will grow up in most of England much the same way he will in most of America.

That's why I find anti-Americanism and all other forms of bigotry to be ridiculous. They're just completely illogical.

Quote: "Unless of course this is just to posh up a bit for the TV cameras, dunno."


Yeah that's exactly what it is . I've been around most of the city I live in and seen maybe three or four houses that regularly have flags up. Sometimes you'll see flags when there are some soldiers coming home (generally National Guard, who never should have been made to leave in the first place - but that's a different rant)... pretty much never any other time. And it's not just that this is an unpatriotic/anti-administration area, either, it's split 50/50 evenly like most cities in swing states. I bet you'll find more flags flying in the south, but not a whole lot more.

Quote: " Did a good job of taking over half the world too"


Indeedly! I seem to recall reading that at one point they controlled two thirds of the known world. If England had had its own Alexander/Napoleon/Hitler, the world would be completely controlled by the British Empire right now. But as you said, they gave it back.

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DBAlex
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Posted: 14th Jun 2005 02:54
Yadayadayada...

Do you ever stop?

Do you know how much bandwith your eating...

There should be a CPP system (charge per post)... But then Raven/Mouse would be declared bankrupt...

Oh well...

and no I havent read any of this thread and I dont intend to...


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Jimmy
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Posted: 14th Jun 2005 03:04
Quote: "I don't know what you are getting so uptight about. I'm not slagging off America, I am agreeing that there is a major difference between Britain and America's people. I don't think theres anything wrong with that, thats just how they are. I was stating that you wouldn't understand, thats all. I don't exactly see much point to what Raven said (or why it matters that we are very different people), although I agree that the British and the Americans are very different people."


But what you are saying is that the British understand how the British AND Americans work, and that the Americans don't understand anything, because our view of America differs from yours.

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