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Geek Culture / [LOCKED] Stealing wifi or using what's already there?

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SirFire
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Posted: 29th Dec 2005 14:19 Edited at: 29th Dec 2005 14:21
Since you are so hung up on this legal thing maybe this logic will appeal to you:

Yes, by not securing their wifi, they have opted-in to sharing it. If it's unsecured, then it's open and free for the world to use.

Their signal is traveling beyond the bounds of their property, meaning technically you could sue them for trespassing. Or you might sue them for medical bills due to the radiation damage to your brain. Then they could have you thrown in jail for defamation of character. Then they could have you put on death row after you attempt to kill them b/c they had you thrown in jail over a silly law.

This is what I'm screaming: I don't care if your horse is green or purple, if you make something freely available to people, they are going to take it regardless of some silly law that rubs common sense the wrong way.

For example, if you are a woman and you go out in public wearing nothing but underwear, you can't bloody go throwing people in jail for sexual harrasment because they were oogling at your body. But if you go out in public wearing a nice dress, and some guy with a mirror taped to his shoe is looking up your dress you would have every right to prosecute.

Or let's say you have an apple tree at the edge of your back yard. Some of the limbs hang over your neighbor's back yard. It's your tree, but your neighbor has every right to pick apples off the limbs hanging over his yard. If you don't like it, cut off those limbs.

You get too hung up on the "legal" thing. Just use common sense: If it's open, use it. If it's secured, stay off. Period.

Les Horribres
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Posted: 29th Dec 2005 14:51
If I forget to lock the front door, is the neighbor tresspassing?

Merranvo, The Cool One

Anti-Noob Justice League, an ANJL of Mercy.
SirFire
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Posted: 29th Dec 2005 15:20
That doesn't even apply to what we are talking about. Again, you are getting hung up on specifics. Like when somebody is trying to tell a joke, and you keep asking them questions like, "What color was the bartender's hair?"

When we are talking about a house, we know what the boundaries of the house are, and what constitutes trespassing: you must enter the domain within the walls in order to trespass in the house. The walls are clearly there, everybody can see them, and you decided to go past the walls to the inside, and that's just like circumventing security on a wifi network. But if there are no walls or fences and you've got all your personal belongings strewn out in a field, you can't expect people not to walk right through.

Megaton Cat
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Posted: 29th Dec 2005 15:43
Just when you thought Merranvo was one of the good guys....BAM!

I think common sense is the biggest factor here. No matter how much you argue it, picking up someone's open signal is not even close to entering someone's house and using their things.

Who exactly do you work for hmmm???

A funny (real) story about the couch grabbing thing: My area was having big garage sale. We walked and looked around. In the evening, all the neighbors put the stuff they couldn't sell out by the front lawn for the garbage pickup. I noticed some dolt left his N64+10 games by the side of the road. I knocked on the door and no one was there, and after waiting at the empty house for 10 minutes, I just took the N64.

Hehe.


The cat era has begun.
re faze
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Posted: 29th Dec 2005 18:25
technically they are invading your airspace so....

Manic
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Posted: 29th Dec 2005 19:20
the answer's in the question: "is it wrong to steal wireless internet?"

I don't have a sig, live with it.
Scraggle
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Posted: 29th Dec 2005 19:38 Edited at: 29th Dec 2005 19:39
I like the sofa idea, although as mentioned earlier the sofa would still have to be there after you had finished with it, so, it is more like sitting on it whilst it is on the street.

Here is another, much more appropriate analogy ...

You pay a hosting site $x/month for a website that you have created. It is a site that you keep personal stuff on that you only want authorised people to view. So, you put a password on the site and all is good.

However, what if you didn't put a password on the website and people used the bandwidth you are paying for to view your website. Are they stealing? Or are they simply using something that is freely available because you haven't put a password on it?

Think about it ...


re faze
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Posted: 29th Dec 2005 19:58
they are using something freely available

Les Horribres
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Posted: 29th Dec 2005 20:18
But there is a catch to that. People have to know the site is there. And typically for that to happen, you need to sign up with a search engine. Unless your site is easy to get, like gooogle.com

Merranvo, The Cool One

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TKF15H
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Posted: 29th Dec 2005 22:20
And the catch is totally unrelated.

I like the apple tree analogy. If a tree's limbs are within your property, you have every right to pick the apples out, cut the branches, hang small animals from it, etc.
Wireless internet isn't very different from that, is it?

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Me!
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Posted: 29th Dec 2005 22:43 Edited at: 29th Dec 2005 22:44
it`s theft, in the UK you need a TV licence to receive TV broadcasts, if you don`t pay then you get fined and your equipment impounded, you can`t avoid it because you have to register your name and addresse every time you buy anything that could display a moving picture, plus they have special detector vans that monitor for unauthorised use of equipment, if you can be prosecuted for stealing the BBC TV signal then I don`t see any difference if you steal someones WiFi signal, obviously in the eyes of the law you can`t use the "it`s on my property" arguement or the BBC wouldn`t be taking people to court and seizing their gear.

:p

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TKF15H
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Posted: 29th Dec 2005 22:50
WiFi is NOT the same thing as Broadband TV. With WiFi you are using your neighbor's resources, not the ISP's. This because he is paying for an internet connection, what he does with it is up to him. Cable TV requires access to something that does not belong to your neighbor, but to whoever is doing the broadcasting.

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dark coder
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Posted: 30th Dec 2005 02:00
i agree with sirfire

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Drew the G
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Posted: 30th Dec 2005 02:58
@ Everyone
I skipped almost all posts because they are too long.

What I meant about the car deal, was because you are using their gas, and running up their miles.

If you can get into their lan through WiFi, it is and isn't illegal. It is illegal because your are stealing. And it isn't because they didn't secure their lan. Not my fault though if you get caught.

What happends - I found out, it uses up their monthly limit, and does make it slower for them when they use it.

Hope I answered your question.
lagmaster
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Posted: 30th Dec 2005 06:23
bah

i live next door to people who work in the police force. they have a wireless network, the pc they had connected to it was an apple mac.

some time ago when i was searching for my router on my pc, i found across a connection called "netgear" i figured it was from either one of my neighbours. it even let me connect and get an ip address.

one day i tested to see if they was dumb enough to leave default user/pass on the router, and they did! with netgear routers they also have a feature of showing your url history in the web admin.

if people cannot be bothered to set up their wireless network properly they truely deserve to have their connection used. luckly after 2 days i told them about it and they fixed it.

please do not compare this to some other non pc object. because pc equipment require some setup after plugging it in and it's sort of wrong when network companies sell the equipment unsecured. they even say on the box the security methods they support and urge you to secure it in the manual.

lagmaster
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Les Horribres
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Posted: 30th Dec 2005 06:37
I can never understand what is so hard about setting up WiFi.
I have everything as tight as can be.

Fact is, WiFi companys get a kick out of people getting hacked. If they didn't, then they would make a simple interface to control everything... and have the internal firewall ON BY DEFAULT.

Don't trust any of these companys, they may even have a tracker in the router, and are sending your personal info back to them.

Merranvo, The Cool One

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Phaelax
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Posted: 30th Dec 2005 07:55 Edited at: 2nd Jan 2006 22:50
...


Deadly Night Assassins
soapyfish
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Posted: 30th Dec 2005 08:48
No offence meant but in my opion posting, telling people to go download software that will show them hidden wireless signals and possibilities of cracking WEP's isn't the best idea.


sheep (I love)
blanky
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Posted: 31st Dec 2005 00:04
You want to know something interesting, if I set a password on my router (for the wireless network) then it refuses to hand out IP addresses properly.

I've tried twice, and both times I did it exactly right... Bah. Now I just look through the system logs all the time, and if there's anyone who even dares to stray onto my network they can say hello to horse porn in their 'My Pictures' folder.

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dark coder
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Posted: 31st Dec 2005 02:10
you must have alot prepared then

Halowed are the ori.
soapyfish
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Posted: 31st Dec 2005 02:17 Edited at: 31st Dec 2005 02:18
Nothing wrong with a good bit of horse love, keeps the blood pressure up.


sheep (I love)
re faze
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Posted: 31st Dec 2005 08:24 Edited at: 31st Dec 2005 08:25
if you crack a password then you are most definitely stealing.
however if you just happen to use that signal then its no different from an apple tree who'se branches extend into your yard. you have every right to use the apples from the branches extending onto your property as long as it doesn't hinder access to the person who's yard the tree's base resides in. that's how I see it. thats what i belive is right.

And I say it Is, you'r almost required by law to listen

Sephnroth
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Posted: 31st Dec 2005 09:37
People are still missing the point. Its not your neighbours service, its their ISP's. They rent it monthly. To hijack it you are stealing a service from their ISP that you are not paying for. It doesnt matter a damn wether or not its been secured by your neighbour or not - the ISP offer a service for a price and you are getting it without paying the price. Your neighbours are so its theirs to waste or use as they see fit - however its not for you to do it wether you are able to or not.

and im sick and tired of the "they cant be bothered to secure it they deserve it stolen" because its complete bs ><

Undercover Steve
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Posted: 31st Dec 2005 10:25
I leave it open for a few neighbors, and really dont care. As long as I dont get reported for doing something, I am fine with you using something that has no limits. Unlike in european companies, most american companies dont have download or upload caps.

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TKF15H
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Posted: 31st Dec 2005 10:57
Quote: "People are still missing the point. Its not your neighbours service, its their ISP's. They rent it monthly."

As they rented it, the ISP separates a set of resources for your neighbour. What your neighbour does with HIS resources is up to him.
This is not cable TV.

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Sephnroth
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Posted: 31st Dec 2005 11:12
Quote: "As they rented it, the ISP separates a set of resources for your neighbour. What your neighbour does with HIS resources is up to him."


INDEED. Not, I must point out, upto you. Buy your own resources.

SirFire
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Posted: 31st Dec 2005 11:38
Quote: "INDEED. Not, I must point out, upto you. Buy your own resources."

Right, HIM. HE elected to have his resources OPEN to the public by NOT securing HIS wifi. HE pays the bill, and he's letting ANYONE use his service.

IF he SECURES it, then it is WRONG to use his service because obviously he doesn't WANT to SHARE it.

Why is this so hard to understand?

David T
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Posted: 31st Dec 2005 12:45
Stealing wifi without permission is wrong. Those who try and justify it by saying "oh well they deserve it" - that's wrong also. If somebody leaves their car unlocked, and somebody walks up and steals it, it's no excuse saying "oh well by not locking it they were volunteering to have their car jacked" - it doesn't work that way.

If you had metred internet access (say a 1gb a month cap) and you found other people were using up your allowance, would you still be as protective over it?

Me!
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Posted: 31st Dec 2005 15:50 Edited at: 31st Dec 2005 15:51
@sirfire: it`s hard to understand since you think specious arguments justify theft, it is theft, pure and simple, it is not your internet connection, end of story, thats not rocket science, in the UK wireless broadcasts are protected by law, and impersonating someone to aquire services is a criminal offense (since you are passing yourself off as the the person holding the contract with the ISP), not to mention that many things are assumed under law, like the right to walk around without being mugged for your possesions, by your reckoning people who wear Ipod headphones and get mugged for their Ipods are asking for it since it`s common knowledge people have been getting mugged for their Ipods, so they have no reason to complain, it`s their fault for using their Ipod as the maker intended, tempting those poor muggers and forcing them to steal Ipods, bloody citizens , they should be forced to leave the stuff locked up at home and under guard, after all, if they don`t bother to have it protected then they must want it to be stolen, right?.



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dark coder
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Posted: 31st Dec 2005 16:13
i think you/others seem to think our argument is that hey they left there wifi open lets suck it dry!, thats not what im trying to say, if i had a laptop and was on a train or something and nearby was a connection and i needed to upload some document urgently, then i wouldent see any problem with connecting to there lan and uploading it,

but for the most part if your at home then you would have you own net connection and if your cheap enough to not have one then :/

Halowed are the ori.
TKF15H
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Posted: 31st Dec 2005 16:18
No one justifies theft... it's just that it isn't theft in the first place.
I don't like the "they deserve it" argument either, but this is not like waltzing into some guy's car and taking it. Remember the apple tree!!!
If the guy leaves his couch on the sidewalk, you come by, sit on it for a few minutes, then go away (leaving the couch behind), is that theft?
If the internet connection is bandwidth capped, then I agree that it's wrong. Never met anyone around here with capped internet though.

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SirFire
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Posted: 31st Dec 2005 16:26 Edited at: 31st Dec 2005 16:29
Yes, I know some of your UK laws, like those TV licenses you have to buy to pick up TV station signals that in the US are free. Those people in this thread that are against making use of open, unsecured wifi keep comparing it to solid, tangible items like ipods or cars. You can't compare oranges and apples. If you were dragging 100 headphones behind your ipod on 500 foot cables all over the city, and somebody picks a pair up and listens to your music, are they "stealing" your music away from you? No, they are not. They might drain the audio signal down a bit though. And you don't drag a bunch of headphones behind you because you don't want anybody else draining your amplifier's energy, which dilutes your listening pleasure. People with open unencrypted wifi hotspots are just like the person with 100 headphones dragging behind them, they are saying "hey! look over here! free internet! just connect!". Whether or not it has been declared illegal is just semantics. I can name many laws that were/are around that didn't make sense or were not right: prohibition, grandfather voting clause, death sentence, etc etc. Just because somebody has made it a law does not mean it's a divine truth and it does not mean you have to adjust your morality and consience to abide by it. Common sense tells you that if you have open hotspot, somebody is going to use it. Making it illegal is not going to fix the problem because it's too tempting to use it, only getting people to practice securing their wifi will fix it. I'm not saying it's legal and I'm don't even know if it's illegal where I am in the U.S., but what I am saying and many people will agree with me is: "have car will drive" meaning that if it's in your face and free to you, chances are you are going to use it. If it IS illegal to use some idiot's open unencrypted wifi signal, then the law should be appended to exclude those brilliant people who can't/won't use security. Have you ever jaywalked? Ever spit on the sidewalk? Tinkled around the back of a building? Exceeded the speed limit in your car? I'm sure you have done one of these, and it was breaking the law. But why did you do it? Because to you at the time, it was a risk you were willing to take either because the chances of you getting caught were minimal or the consequences were minimal. Using an open wifi signal is the former, even if it is "illegal", the chances of you getting caught are one in a million. And I'm pretty sure a good lawyer could get you off if it was an open signal. You could tell the judge "I didn't know it was HIS wifi, I thought it was Whataburger's free hotspot across the road! He should have secured it your honor to avoid the confusion."

These are just my opinions on the matter, I do not wish to get into a flamewar over this or anything, but I really do feel that overriding your common sense to obey the law degrades your integrity as a citizen of your community and brings us down a step on the ladder of civilization.

Megaton Cat
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Posted: 31st Dec 2005 17:22
You arn't stealing wi-fi, you're borrowing it.

Like someone mentioned, if someone leaves their car unlocked, you come over and steal it. That is theft, and the owner of the car will never see it again.

Likewise with wi-fi, it's simply there and you're "using it" for the time being. You are not stealing anything, because the neighbor isn't LOSING anything. He still has his wifi.

Same with the couch argument: You are merly sitting on the couch by the street, than leaving.

Now let me play my bloody Animal Crossing already.


The cat era has begun.
flibX0r
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Posted: 31st Dec 2005 17:39 Edited at: 31st Dec 2005 17:46
Quote: "You are not stealing anything, because the neighbor isn't LOSING anything."


Uh, his bandwidth and download quota? It is theft, because you're using a service they've paid for without you yourself paying, or even asking permission. It IS theft, in the same sense of getting the plumber your neighbour has hired to spend the last 15 minutes working at your house, but still having your neighbour pay for it



You can't wield supreme executive power just because some watery tart threw a sword at you
SirFire
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Posted: 31st Dec 2005 19:52 Edited at: 31st Dec 2005 19:53
By the wifi network being open and unencrypted permission is implied. I think maybe the differences among us are caused by our regions. Here in the U.S., almost nobody has download quotas, and if you are sucking too much of that person's bandwidth, then maybe they'll learn to secure their network. They will have learned a lesson, and so would you: don't be greedy.

Me!
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Posted: 31st Dec 2005 20:17 Edited at: 31st Dec 2005 20:25
implied my bum , well! since you never said I couldn`t empty your family bank account then don`t go running to the police if I do, after all, your silence on the subject implies you don`t mind, right?, it is theft, you are using their bandwidth they paid for, their equipment and their identity, it is theft, apple trees go back to an archaic law from the year dot, I can still cut off the branches that overhang you if I wish, then you get no apples.

everybody still trots out the same old tired arguements, but you still have to set your WiFi to the same frequency as the other user, so some intent is there, as is intent in actualy latching onto and using someone elses connection rather than just changing your device to another channel, the ommision is more down to the makers of the equipment than people who either don`t read the instructions or don`t understand them, the modem that came with my broadband connection is an example of what can be done, it uses a special button on the modem that IDs the MAC of any system wanting to connect, if you can`t get to the modem to press the button during setup then you can`t connect to the modem ever afterwards, 1 MAC per press prevents someone else logging in during the setup, pretty secure, although in the end I wanted more 100/10 connections than the modem had, so I went with a belkin modem/router and set the codes/MAC and security to the highest possible, but even then I keep a frequent eye on the status indicator, I`m capped at 30gig per month and often come close to it, I would be seriously annoyed if someone started using my connection for their own use (right before I turned off the wireless connectivity and went looking for them with a big stick )

Quote: "but I really do feel that overriding your common sense to obey the law degrades your integrity as a citizen of your community and brings us down a step on the ladder of civilization.

"


what? obeying the law allows civilisation/society to function, it`s the integrity of the people who obey the law even when it`s silly or inconvenient that prevent civilisation backsliding, if you only obey laws when it pleases you then you might as well have no laws, and there goes society as everything dissolves into anarchy, you might not like laws, but wherever they are well enforced you can walk without fear and live your live as you please (inside the law of course), it is the duty of you as a citizen to ensure that the laws you live under create the kind of world you want to live in, IE get off your butt and ring/mail/write your MP or Congress member or whatever, if you dont then the fanatics that do will be dictating the kind of world you live in.



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SirFire
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Posted: 31st Dec 2005 20:22 Edited at: 31st Dec 2005 20:23
That is one point I can agree with you on, I blame the manufacturers for not enabling security by default.

EDIT: And would this thread be different if that was the case? If all wifi equip came with security enabled, and some users decided to turn it off, would you still think it theft for someone else catching on to the open signal?

re faze
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Posted: 31st Dec 2005 20:28
if you own a river and i sip a cup of water from it, am i stealing? i mean the amount of water i conume is negligible and does not decrease your ability to enjoy the river right?

Me!
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Posted: 31st Dec 2005 20:30 Edited at: 31st Dec 2005 20:31
Groundsman, Gamekeeper, Gilly and Gamewarden, look em up



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soapyfish
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Posted: 31st Dec 2005 20:59
If only teh legal bear was hear instead of stealing pic-a-nic baskets we'd have all the answers we needed. But people would still argue about it, so there ya go.


sheep (I love)
Megaton Cat
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Posted: 31st Dec 2005 21:08
What I meant by stealing wasn't using bandwidth. I mean you arn't going "Here neighbor, I am taking this wi-fi from you and will will never use it again. Only I will use it from now on."


The cat era has begun.
Les Horribres
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Posted: 31st Dec 2005 21:30 Edited at: 31st Dec 2005 21:31
SirFire, @ your argument about 500 headphone IPOD...

You would get arrested, not sure about the people listening. Read the law about public broadcasting. (In otherwords, you intended for people to listen to your music, and you set it up for a mass to listen to it, and that is illigal).

Your argument about other law breaking things, WiFi is 100% more effecent at catching people then small time laws, why? Well, it is this little thing called a log, and this log has all the people who ever connected to the WiFi networks' MAC adress. And this CAN be traced back to you, if the neighbor just glances at their log, they will see 1 extra computer on their network.

And there is also the matter of how crazy your neighbor is... Mabey they have a server filled with DoomsDay virus' all which will go to your computer after you connect. Mwuhahaha.


I looked some things up, and apearantly the law is 2 sided.
YOU are at fault for hacking the network, and the neighbor is at fault for distributing the service. Or in other words, if you can access the network, use the whisleblowers law to turn your neigbor in for "illigal distribution of premium services" and then make a LOT of money off of them... and while they are in jail, continue to use their WiFi.

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Dot Merix
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Posted: 31st Dec 2005 21:47
Quote: "And this CAN be traced back to you, if the neighbor just glances at their log, they will see 1 extra computer on their network.
"


All i have to say is - GOOD LUCK - on trying to trace back who's using your wifi if the other person is using their PSP for example.


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soapyfish
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Posted: 31st Dec 2005 21:59 Edited at: 31st Dec 2005 21:59
Quote: "and while they are in jail, continue to use their WiFi."


Don't you think they'd have secured it by then. That's if that scenario is likely to happen in the first place, which it isn't.



Undercover Steve
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Joined: 6th Jun 2005
Location: Vancouver, Little Canada(Washington)
Posted: 31st Dec 2005 23:20
I think if there is a limit, dont steal. If you know they have an unlimited connection (aka most american companies), then use it. They left it open, they dont have limits, free connection.

We have fallen Into an abyss! Dear God captian! There all Bars.
re faze
20
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 24th Sep 2004
Location: The shores of hell.
Posted: 1st Jan 2006 00:54
cant you change your mac adress? i can

Drew the G
User Banned
Posted: 2nd Jan 2006 04:04
@ Everyone
SHUT UP!!! YOU ARE ONLY HEARING (or should I say reading)/WRITING WHAT YOU WANT TO BE SAID.
BOTTOM LINE

IT IS STEALING
YOU ARE STEALING THEIR BANDWIDTH DANG IT!!!

SHUT UP MEGATON, IT IS THEFT. STOP YOUR STUPID BUlloni.
Les Horribres
18
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 20th Nov 2005
Location: My Name is... Merry
Posted: 2nd Jan 2006 07:07 Edited at: 2nd Jan 2006 07:08
It isn't stealing... it is borrowing. (From the mouth of Teh Theif)


Sure you could probally change anything if you wanted to, but then you would have to explain why your MAC changed when the officers check [again[ to see if you were the one stealing.

[edit]
Mabey that is over doing it. Nahh, it is impractical.
[/edit]

Merranvo, Teh S \/|03|2 7I<><>I3
Anti-Noob Justice League, what's that?
SirFire
19
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 4th Apr 2005
Location: North America
Posted: 2nd Jan 2006 07:11
It is NOT STEALING IF THE IDIOTS DON'T ENABLE SECURITY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Les Horribres
18
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 20th Nov 2005
Location: My Name is... Merry
Posted: 2nd Jan 2006 07:19 Edited at: 2nd Jan 2006 07:20
You don't have a bike lock, You can't arrest me.

I walked down my street to see if I could pick up any open WiFi Signals... out of the 14 houses that had WiFi, only 5 were protected. Pathetic.

Merranvo, Teh S \/|03|2 7I<><>I3
Anti-Noob Justice League, what's that?

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