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Geek Culture / Photograph Legality?

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Matt Rock
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Posted: 18th Feb 2006 21:41
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Some of you have probably played my silly little game "Cheney Hunter" (it's in the program announcements section if you haven't). I can't get sued for using the images I used, because it's freeware... right? Or can I still get sued even if I'm not making money? And another question... if I make a different, far better game and use pictures (that are cropped better) in a similar fashion, and charge for it, could I be sued then? Or can I *not* be sued because I'm using images that have been altered from their originals?

*Slightly baffled*
- Matt Rock

"Hell is an Irish Pub where it's St. Patrick's Day all of the time." ~ Christopher, *The Soprano's*
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Joe Cooning
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Posted: 18th Feb 2006 21:52
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As long as its freeware, I think you are fine (emphasis on "think"). I don't know if cropping is enough alteration to make a picture your own though. My suggestion would be to either get permission to use it or find things that aren't copyright protected.

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BatVink
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Posted: 18th Feb 2006 22:17
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You can be sued for using it. Otherwise I could copy Windows and give it to everyone for free. OR copy Van Gogh's sunflowers and give it way free.

How much you make from it has nothing to do with infringing the copyright.

Also, you cannot "derive" an image from another one. That's also infringing on the copyright.

Having said all of that, I think Mr Cheney and Mr Hussein have far bigger things to worry about than your game

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re faze
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Posted: 18th Feb 2006 22:22
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'the man' might get interest in you but its quite unlikely.

Dont code slowly be SWIFT about it!
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Matt Rock
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Posted: 18th Feb 2006 22:53
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I'm not so much worried about Dick Cheney and Saddam Hussein as I am the AP and Rueters, from whom I stole the images of Dick Cheney, Osama Bin Laden, Saddam, and Cindy Sheehan... I doubt the game will get popular, but if it does, I could get into serious trouble Oh well, it's worth it lol.

This presents me with a problem. I want to make a new game with these characters (and many others), but I can't make it if AP, Rueters, and others won't allow me to use their images. And I can't draw worth a darn, so charicatures is out of the question. And since I've been such a long-time supporter of team localization, I can't just find a bunch of friends off the internet to draw them for me. I guess I'll just e-mail the companies who own the pictures and "try" to get permission.

"Hell is an Irish Pub where it's St. Patrick's Day all of the time." ~ Christopher, *The Soprano's*
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Philip
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Posted: 19th Feb 2006 00:19
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Of course you can get sued for breaching copyright in the pictures.

How many times have I had to say this in these forums? Whether you charge or do not charge is totally irrelevant.

The real issue is a practical one - is someone going to bother sueing you if you don't have lots of money to pay damages??

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Matt Rock
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Posted: 19th Feb 2006 07:13
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Well, I've only been coming to these forums (on and off) for a year, but I've never seen this issue come up... and besides, this is the only instance where it's ever been an issue for me. I already sent an e-mail to the AP and they very hastily replied with a firm "not in this lifetime." (well, not in those words of course). I guess it's time for me to play dirty, break out MS Paint, and start freehand tracing

"Hell is an Irish Pub where it's St. Patrick's Day all of the time." ~ Christopher, *The Soprano's*
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Me!
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Posted: 19th Feb 2006 09:32
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why trace?, just stick it through a blur filter, detailed watercolour and then sharpen, et-voila! (or whatever), an original work based on AP images, plus I never heard of artists getting sued for using commercial art or newspaper images in their artwork, I even have a book full of seventies artwork/news/books/furniture/fashions etc that doesn`t bother with recognition of the original artists, I don`t think anyone could be that petty, its not as though photos of Bush etc are rare or of any value .



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Pincho Paxton
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Posted: 19th Feb 2006 16:45
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Ms Paint is a bit *&*^&*^*%.

You really need a new layer, and draw over a photo.

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Manticore Night
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Posted: 19th Feb 2006 17:13
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Quote: "You can be sued for using it. Otherwise I could copy Windows and give it to everyone for free. OR copy Van Gogh's sunflowers and give it way free."
Acctualy, if it's used for a spoof, then it's legal.

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Philip
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Posted: 19th Feb 2006 23:34
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Quote: "Acctualy, if it's used for a spoof, then it's legal."


Wrong

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Jeff Miller
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Posted: 20th Feb 2006 02:41
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Get a non-AP photo. The US government doesn't claim copyright in many of its its sites, which is where many artists (including game creators) obtain references. Cheney's particular site is http://www.whitehouse.gov/vicepresident/

Since you are in the US, take it from a US copyright attorney: everything that Philip and Batvink are telling you is 100% in full force here. It's not Cheney's rights you tread on, but those of the photographer (or his/her assignee, such as AP). You can spoof Cheney all you want since he is a public figure, and as of last week a probable protagonist in many upcoming FPS games. But that is not a defense to infringement of the rights in photographs of him that are taken, published and sold by photographers or the companies they work for.
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Manticore Night
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Posted: 20th Feb 2006 03:42
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Quote: "Wrong"
Hey, I got that from a very reliable source(some video I watched in grade3)! Capitain Copyright told me.

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Matt Rock
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Posted: 20th Feb 2006 04:15
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Ha! That means my Cheney Hunt game beat a bunch of people to the chase, and I can finally claim that I did something before anyone else If someone knows of a different cheney game, please don't ruin this glee for me lol.

I think I'll use paint to maintain the corny flavor of this series of games.

I thought what Manticore said about the spoof was true. That's where the initial confusion came from.

"Hell is an Irish Pub where it's St. Patrick's Day all of the time." ~ Christopher, *The Soprano's*
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Dave J
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Posted: 20th Feb 2006 11:59
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Nah, everyone that does a spoof has to get permission from the respective copyright owners first.


"Computers are useless, they can only give you answers."
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Van B
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Posted: 20th Feb 2006 13:46
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I wonder if the makers of South Park got Husseins permission to use his image...

I don't think that a game like that would sell many copies, so it's probably not worth the risk - considering how many political games are out there for free, nobody really expects to pay for them.

The other risk is that it could appear that the game is set to raise money for a specific group - which would mean the authorities would find out very quickly. Like if you want to make money, why would you try to do it through a game like that, why not make a Bejeweled clone - that's what they'd ask themselves.


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BatVink
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Posted: 20th Feb 2006 14:53 Edited at: 20th Feb 2006 14:54
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Quote: "just stick it through a blur filter, detailed watercolour and then sharpen, et-voila! (or whatever), an original work based on AP images"


Change the word "based" to "derived", and then do a search for copyright and derived works. You can't do that!

Quote: "I never heard of artists getting sued for using commercial art or newspaper images in their artwork"

If you create your own artwork, or take your own photo, you can publish it. If you gain permission from the copyright owner, you can publish it.

Quote: "I even have a book full of seventies artwork/news/books/furniture/fashions etc that doesn`t bother with recognition of the original artists"

Quite normal...you can have an agreement that the photo is used without recognition. Usually costs more, but it's standard practise especially in the world of Stock photography.

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David R
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Posted: 20th Feb 2006 15:30 Edited at: 20th Feb 2006 15:30
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Quote: "Change the word "based" to "derived", and then do a search for copyright and derived works. You can't do that!"


Thinking about it, how on earth are the original copyright owners going to tell if you derived it from their work?

e.g. I could say everybody on this forum derived their sig banners from my (non existant)one, because although they changed the content slightly, the size is still roughly the same etc. etc. I'm suing you all

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Me!
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Posted: 20th Feb 2006 17:19 Edited at: 20th Feb 2006 17:23
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yes! that "fast furious fundraising fun! POTSHOT!" logo is obviously based on MY "slow curious expensive misery! HOTWHOT!" game logo , plus after the image has been tweaked (and made into a watercolour to boot) how could you prove it was taken from any one of ten million photos all over the net rather than traced?, likewise these smartasses who keep advertising land on the Moon for sale or "name a star after your beloved" are all in contravention of my ownership of all locations beyond one mile of the earths surface, which I happen to allow free use of, as defined by me, for the rest of humanity with rights to veto or remove anything I don`t approve of (so there Mr http://www.buy-moon-property.com/, get off my property ) (all such organsisations are actualy spurious and designed to part idiots from a large part of their bank account..I mean.....just look at the customer list ).



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Philip
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Posted: 20th Feb 2006 23:22
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@Me!

I believe that I have already comprehensively dealt with the thorny issue of ownership of extra terrestrial bodies in another thread in this forum.

If you care to do a search, you will find that the Outer Space Treaty, etc., banned any private ownership of non-terrestrial objects. Hence the reason why "real estate" on the Moon cannot be alienated and, indeed, hence the reason why contrary to many American misconceptions, the Moon is not part of USA territory.

Now, what is your mailing address for my invoice?

@Jeff Miller

Are you a lawyer too? We now have TWO lawyers in these forums? Extraordinary.

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BatVink
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Posted: 20th Feb 2006 23:44
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Quote: "contrary to many American misconceptions, the Moon is not part of USA territory"




...and Britain isn't an American state either, despite Bush appearing to own Blair's ass.

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Me!
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Posted: 21st Feb 2006 11:48 Edited at: 21st Feb 2006 11:52
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iirc in the wording of the space treaty, it banned state ownership, not private, thats the "loophole" these bozos claim allows them to sell you an acre of the moon, but by the same logic I can claim I own the moon and all other celestial bodies and they are trying to sell MY property, I think you actualy have to go there and plant your flag or something, I was just pointing out the weakness of their position on that somewhat specious argument, not claiming any legal knowledge like a proper legaly equiped bear can do, it just seemed worth pointing out that if they have a valid right to sell lunar acerage (and hence they "own" it) then my claim to actualy own all celestial bodies is just as valid, so they are trespassing .

"what do you mean your gonna sell an acre of the moon?, get off my damn planet/moon/star/asteroid/comet/kiuper belt object/black hole/etc <insert as appropriate> you thieving git"

likewise, if they have the right to sell acres of the moon then I have the right to just stake a claim in any 300 acres of it I want, so tough for them, I don`t need to pay them anyway, (actualy I bags Saturn/Neptune/Uranus and Jupiter....all that gas will come in handy when we have a Catagory 2 civilisation and need lots of gas for fusion power)




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Matt Rock
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Posted: 21st Feb 2006 19:39
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Quote: "likewise these smartasses who keep advertising land on the Moon for sale or "name a star after your beloved" are all in contravention of my ownership of all locations beyond one mile of the earths surface, which I happen to allow free use of, as defined by me, for the rest of humanity with rights to veto or remove anything I don`t approve of "


Problem is, Me, I declared Jupiter's moons Europa, Callisto, and Io as property of Matt Rock back in 1996 on my website, and re-named them Rockland, Rockworld, and The Federation of Rock (respectively). So unless you're looking for an intergalactic war buster you should think about retracting your false claims immediately

Quote: "Are you a lawyer too? We now have TWO lawyers in these forums? Extraordinary."


I don't quite think "extraordinary" is the right word for it... extraordinarily frightening? I think that works better (no offense lawyers)

Anyway, back on topic. I think I need to find someone who can draw charicatures really well, preferably on the computer. But a friend of mine thinks that if your charicature looks too much like someone elses charicature, you could get sued. Was I right when I told her she was wrong?

"Hell is an Irish Pub where it's St. Patrick's Day all of the time." ~ Christopher, *The Soprano's*
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BatVink
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Posted: 21st Feb 2006 21:49 Edited at: 21st Feb 2006 21:49
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This is just an educated guess...if an artist specialises in drawing charicatures with big teeth, and you start up in business also selling charicatures of the same subjects, also with big teeth, then they may have a case. However, it wouldn't be copyright, it would be some other business-based law, such as trademark. It goes without saying that the Trademark would have to be registered (which is very different to copyright).



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Peter H
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Posted: 21st Feb 2006 22:51
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Quote: "or take your own photo"

that's the key!

just go take a picture of saddam and you can use it in your game!

"We make the worst games in the universe..."
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Philip
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Posted: 21st Feb 2006 23:18
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@Me!

Curses. And just when I had a bridge I wanted to sell you.

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Matt Rock
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Posted: 22nd Feb 2006 00:52
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Great idea Peter! I'll just go take a picture of Hussein! He's in a prison, what's he gonna do, spit at me? And I should take pictures of all the other characters that'll be in the game, too! How hard can it possibly be to track down Osama Bin Laden for a photo shoot? hehe

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Me!
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Posted: 22nd Feb 2006 11:01
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nah! I bought most of those and I am still waiting for delivery , they PROMISED I could have them for Christmas, and not one turned up, I went and looked and they haven`t even started to dig up Tower Bridge, as soon as they come back from their christmas holidays I am going to get on to them, would you like to buy a Iceberg btw?...I have been promised a job lot I plan to sell to a former Nigerian diplomat who plans to irrigate the Nigerian desert with them just as soon as he gets my bank details, so that he can send me the money to pay for them, I may have a few spare even though delivery is going to be late due to the melting icecaps causing the JCB`s that dig em loose to get stuck, only reason I can afford to do all this is because of this realy neat money printing machine some guy sold me in the pub a few weeks back, failing that, how about a nice tower, I got the Post office, Eiffel, Blackpool and Leaning (of Pizza fame) due for delivery .



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Benjamin
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Posted: 22nd Feb 2006 11:23
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How did you get the export permit for the Eiffel tower?

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Philip
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Posted: 22nd Feb 2006 13:55 Edited at: 22nd Feb 2006 13:56
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Why would you want to sell that? Its a load of old scrap.

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Me!
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Posted: 22nd Feb 2006 18:06
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export permit?



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Benjamin
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Posted: 22nd Feb 2006 18:15
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It's a joke between me and Mnemonix. He says he stole the 'Roffle' tower but can't get an export permit for it.

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Matt Rock
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Posted: 22nd Feb 2006 21:36
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Wait! That nigerian banker e-mailed you too?!? He told me I had a long-lost uncle who died and left me an inheritance of $33,000,000 and I could cash in on it if I gave him my bank information. Jeesh, I wish I knew he was doing that to everyone... I gave him my account number! I guess this would explain why my paychecks keep vanishing from the bank

"Hell is an Irish Pub where it's St. Patrick's Day all of the time." ~ Christopher, *The Soprano's*
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Me!
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Posted: 23rd Feb 2006 19:38 Edited at: 23rd Feb 2006 19:43
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@Benjamin: thank gawd for that, I thought maybe thats why delivery was late...I had all the X-mas lights ready for it and everything, at least I won`t need to buy an export licence (just the one year warranty for the Christmas lights set me back £2000)

@Matt Rock: oh good! I thought there might be something up, what with my savings disapearing and all, glad to know it`s normal banking practice, I was starting to worry, BTW, does anyone know where I can buy a diving suit?...I just bought a genuine map that pinpoints Captain kids treasure, it`s the original map still in the original Pirates file-o-fax and realy well preserved, I`m gonna go after that as soon as this 120ft cruiser I bought for £300 off E-Bay gets delivered



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Mnemonix
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Posted: 23rd Feb 2006 23:24
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thats the "roffel tower"

and its a joke I stole from James Bond

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Benjamin
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Posted: 23rd Feb 2006 23:27
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Let me see ur correction of spelling. Nope you have it not. Sorry you need to go buy Me! meccano tower factory then. It should do it for you and construction werkers oops its Nebjamin.

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Mnemonix
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Posted: 23rd Feb 2006 23:28
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*Fires a noo tron bom @ Banjoman*

WE SHALL BECOME ALL POWERFUL! CRUSH THE LESSER RACES! CONQUER THE GALAXY! UNIMAGINABLE POWER! UNLIMITED RICE PUDDING ! ! ! ETC. ! ! ! ETC.! ! !
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Benjamin
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Posted: 23rd Feb 2006 23:30 Edited at: 23rd Feb 2006 23:33
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Hi, my naym is baldy oops I mean Mnemonix. Here is my CV:



PLZ HYR ME.

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Mnemonix
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Posted: 23rd Feb 2006 23:31 Edited at: 23rd Feb 2006 23:31
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My reply :



WE SHALL BECOME ALL POWERFUL! CRUSH THE LESSER RACES! CONQUER THE GALAXY! UNIMAGINABLE POWER! UNLIMITED RICE PUDDING ! ! ! ETC. ! ! ! ETC.! ! !

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Benjamin
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Posted: 23rd Feb 2006 23:32
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You just replied to yourself?

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Mnemonix
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Posted: 23rd Feb 2006 23:33
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No.


I replied to somebody who said " Hi, my naym is baldy oops I mean Mnemonix"


There can be more than one Mnemonix

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Benjamin
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Posted: 23rd Feb 2006 23:35 Edited at: 23rd Feb 2006 23:36
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But there is only one baldy.

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Mnemonix
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Posted: 23rd Feb 2006 23:36 Edited at: 23rd Feb 2006 23:38
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Im not bald. You must be a bald cat.

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Matt Rock
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Posted: 23rd Feb 2006 23:46
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I cents teh coming of L33T0$auru$ de l33t3$t H@x0rz 3v3r


I find that putting definitions in code blips can often stave off confusion

Somehow this thread has gone from photograph legal stuff to people being bald. I think I missed a step lol

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Benjamin
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Posted: 23rd Feb 2006 23:50
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Maybe this'll clear it up for you:

WEEEE'REE ALL LIVING IN A AMERICAAAAA, AMERICAAAAA, ITS WONDERFUL

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Matt Rock
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Posted: 24th Feb 2006 01:25
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But wait, aren't you from France with ants in your underpants?

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Benjamin
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Joined: 24th Nov 2002
Location: France
Posted: 24th Feb 2006 11:24
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I beg your pardon?

Tempest - P2P UDP Multiplayer Plugin - 70%
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BatVink
Moderator
21
Years of Service
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Joined: 4th Apr 2003
Location: Gods own County, UK
Posted: 24th Feb 2006 11:56 Edited at: 24th Feb 2006 12:10
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For all those that think Mnemonix is bald...He isn't really a cartoon bomb with a face on...duh!

He's a cartoon bomb with a face on and hair.



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Mnemonix
21
Years of Service
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Joined: 2nd Dec 2002
Location: Skaro
Posted: 24th Feb 2006 12:13
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Im glad thats cleared up!

WE SHALL BECOME ALL POWERFUL! CRUSH THE LESSER RACES! CONQUER THE GALAXY! UNIMAGINABLE POWER! UNLIMITED RICE PUDDING ! ! ! ETC. ! ! ! ETC.! ! !
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Matt Rock
19
Years of Service
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Joined: 5th Mar 2005
Location: Binghamton NY USA
Posted: 24th Feb 2006 17:44
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He's disguised! Don't buy into the hype! Mnem is a weapon of mass destruction!

"Hell is an Irish Pub where it's St. Patrick's Day all of the time." ~ Christopher, *The Soprano's*
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