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Geek Culture / who believes in extra terestrials?

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Pincho Paxton
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Posted: 15th Mar 2006 00:59
Here's a bit of zig zag science. (what's that???...I don't know!!!)


Water is found on Earth, but we have difficulty in finding it on the other planets. We say water = life....possibly.

Now travel 20 billion miles!!!!

Bosimult is found on Fixilitop, but they have difficulty in finding it on there nearby planets. They say Bosimult = life .... possibly.


I am saying that there may be substances that we do not know about. If water is rare, then other substances could be rare. They might = life too, but a different sort of life.

Oneka
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Posted: 15th Mar 2006 00:59
So....If I was like put on Europa and I didnt have to worry about freezing or anything....I could breathe the air!


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Matt Rock
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Posted: 15th Mar 2006 01:12 Edited at: 15th Mar 2006 01:13
@ Oneka: Not every creature needs air to survive. Fish don't need air... they need oxygen though. But in that same stroke, so does water (H2O)

@ Pincho: It's a valid point, but keep in mind that we already know there was water on several celestial bodies. Mars has deep oceanic beds and scars from river erosions, and like I pointed out earlier, we already know there's liquid water on saturn's moon. We don't know if life needs water, but if you could find a different substance or material or energy source that is known to generally support all life and narrow the search, you should go work for nasa, hehe.


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Les Horribres
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Posted: 15th Mar 2006 01:15
Uhh... water can exist anyways... confused...

Looks at Paxton... you are a GENIUS!

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Pincho Paxton
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Posted: 15th Mar 2006 01:15 Edited at: 15th Mar 2006 01:16
Quote: "Pincho: It's a valid point, but keep in mind that we already know there was water on several celestial bodies. Mars has deep oceanic beds and scars from river erosions, and like I pointed out earlier, we already know there's liquid water on saturn's moon."


In our solar sytem. But we might be a strange solar system.

Matt Rock
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Posted: 15th Mar 2006 01:20
True Pincho... we won't know until we go explore deep space. But we don't have any reason to really believe we won't find water elsewhere.

Mosillivo: I don't know where you're talking about. Everywhere I've ever heard of water existing, there's been an atmosphere, except comets which are just big chunks of dry, hard ice.


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Les Horribres
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Posted: 15th Mar 2006 01:23
I may double post, but in a heated disscussion edits don't make one bit of difference.

Water HOLDS oxygen, fish don't preform electrolysis on water.

Mars, smars, we don't have an pintogram worth of proof that there was water on mars. And if there was... let me guess... it evaporated :p. Oh give me a break, it could be anything from brimide to liquid helium.


And FTW. It has been proven that Antrax can survive dehydrated. Who needs water now?
Another FTW:
How can bacteria survive off of phosphate vents? Certainly if there were phosphate vents somewhere else and a substance to maintain the form of the bacteria + allow transpher of stuff, then you have life evolving there.
More FTW's: In the desert, even though there is water, the plants and animals there have evolved to need very little of it. If water = life, then the absense of water should extreamly hurt life, yet here is this ecosystem running off of a low supply of water.

Now go GOOGLE Stanley Miller.

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Les Horribres
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Posted: 15th Mar 2006 01:24
Another risk of double posting.

Do you know that Jupiter has an atmosphere? Does it have water? (Okay... mabey... we don't know anything truly about it except it is creating energy and has a big red spot)

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Oneka
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Posted: 15th Mar 2006 01:46
@Matt Rock
Quote: "@ Oneka: Not every creature needs air to survive. Fish don't need air... they need oxygen though. But in that same stroke, so does water (H2O)"


Dude who said other creatures? I just said me...I dont have gills so I dont need H20 to breathe thats why I said "I"!


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Philip
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Posted: 15th Mar 2006 01:56
I don't think anyone is saying that water is essential for primitive life. The point is that wherever life has been found, water is present, even sometimes in microscopic quantities (such as in deserts). The correlation seems to be more than coincidence.

There are creatures that live without water. There are some forms of bacteria for which water is effectively poision.

But for complex creatures, water seems to be very important.

But, as has been pointed out by others above, this is based on our earth-centric perspective.

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Gil Galvanti
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Posted: 15th Mar 2006 01:58
I think there may be what we call "aliens" out there, even other possibly highly intelligent lifeforms. But I definitely dont think they are little green men in flying saucers who have already discovered and come to our planet, I'm pretty sure that they are just as clueless to another species as we are, and speculate just as much as we do about "another kind". Like I said, I dont think what most people think of as aliens is whats really out there . Anyone seen "Alien Planet" on discovery channel?

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Saikoro
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Posted: 15th Mar 2006 02:00
I think if you read the Hitchhikers Guide to the Galaxy, thats exactly whats going on outside of our sight.

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Oneka
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Posted: 15th Mar 2006 03:13
I guess water would be pretty important if you like 70% H20


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dark coder
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Posted: 15th Mar 2006 03:14
i hear that wherever theres water theres life being commonly used but the only proof we have is on earth which isnt a very good example since almost all of it has some sort of life, so i say instead of making some wild theorys about everything why the hell dont they make some huge slingshot that can send spaceships faster than light its possible right?

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Les Horribres
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Posted: 15th Mar 2006 03:36
Water SUCKS! I hate being a water based being. If I wasn't water based. I could freeze my body and return at a time when we meet the H2SO4 based beings!

Gil... It saddens me that that show ended with all the robots dying.

It isn't proven that you can't travel faster then the speed of light. And my new theory is this.

If you can't travel faster then the speed of light, then as you aproach a black hole, you will see a field of dazzeling light. As the light which was lucky has gone in orbit around the black hole... then you get crushed by a 10^10^10 ATM.

But that is mechanical movement. What about moving without really moving? That would be cool! If you were to create a field of gravity around your ship so great that time stoped. When it dissipates you would be in another galaxy (given that your total velocity was zero) (Galaxys moving and all)

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Oneka
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Posted: 15th Mar 2006 04:48
wait...I think you can excede the speed of light because the Universe is steadily growing and growing outwards and Iam pretty sure its moving faster then light....I dont think there is a limit on speed....just the question is...how does moving at such speeds affect us?


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Matt Rock
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Posted: 15th Mar 2006 05:06
Mosillivo, all I know is that the world's top scientists all agree that we should look for life where we find water, because that's where we have the best chance at finding it. Period. Call me crazy, but I'll take NASA's word for it. And I know all about the Miller/ Urey experiment... and I know it had flaws, like the fact that they had a constant "lightning" effect which, as any human whose ever been outside during a storm can tell you, never happens. The simple fact is, if this planet didn't have water, you and I wouldn't be here, and neither would just about any other life form (with VERY few single-celled exceptions)... looking for water to find life is basic common sense.

Now answer me this question: If we were to go out and look for life on other planets, and we aren't going to look where we find water, what are we going to look for? If you can figure that out, NASA and the world's top universities will all be throwing money your way, and lots of it, because you'll have solved a riddle they've been trying to answer for decades/ centuries.

About the speed of light thing: Everyone has these concepts of fantastic light shows when you travel faster than the speed of light, but I'm willing to bet it's a lot simpler than that... if you travel faster than light, you wouldn't see anything, because you're traveling faster than light... you need light to see, and if you're moving faster than said light, there would in effect be no light. But my opinion is no more valid than anyone else's on this subject since there's no way to test these theories out yet.


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Oneka
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Posted: 15th Mar 2006 05:16
JUBERISH: Well technically you can still see stuff if your travelling at the speed of light, the atoms,etc will still be in place they just may not be illuminated/or may have an old light effect so the thingy would appear to be visually "lagging" xD


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Matt Rock
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Posted: 15th Mar 2006 05:19 Edited at: 15th Mar 2006 05:21
That's a pretty good theory Oneka, that images would "freeze-frame," or maybe even just skip and flash foward like a strobe light even. But I don't think it would be like Star Wars, with zillions of streams of light.

If NASA ever perfects the ion drive that they're building for Pegasus, we might get to see the speed of light breached (if it's possible anyway). As I understand it (and please inform me if I'm wrong), the ion drive will be the fastest propellant system we've ever created for space craft... I don't know how fast that would be though.

Edit: If something isn't illuminated, we can't see it. We'd be moving faster than the source of light and thus light would be behind us, right?


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Oneka
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Posted: 15th Mar 2006 05:26
JUBERISH: well maybe but you have to think that light costantly is coming, think of it like a Refresh rate...the light will update it self....we will just be able to see it happening, like the moon goes around the earth...it would be at a slower pace....but you would probably still be able to seee things, just slowed down emmensely...


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Posted: 15th Mar 2006 10:43
yay i have a red post!

and on topic, life addapts to its surrondings, and theres life in nearrly every type of habitat in this planet, weather its in red hot guisers deep under the ocean, under water in the pitch black with billions of pounds of pressure on top, in a scorchin dry desert, at the top of a freezing mountain, in the air, lying dorment underground for decades at a time, theres life every where, so where people are saying life cant survive on othe planets due to the climet, atmosphere and surroundings, how do you know, we dont know of life that could survive that because we dont have those conditions here on earth to see, but there could easily be life that addapts to those conditions.

and as for light speed, i dont think there is a limet to how far technology will go, over time i think our space travel will just keep gtting faster until we achieve it, as for what it will be like, i have no idear, noone does, just guesses on what you think it will be like.

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Matt Rock
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Posted: 15th Mar 2006 18:48
@ Oneka: First off, why are you calling me "Juberish" lol. Anyway, I'm going to stand by my opinion that we won't see anything. The human eye sees 24 frames per second, and light travels at 299,792,458 meters per second, so in effect we'd need to be able to see about 12491352.416666666666666666666667 frames of light per second to see anything at all (god bless the windows calculator). At light speed, that's how many frames we'd see in a second, so either it would appear as true black (because our eyes can't absorb that much data), or we'd see a blurred mass of that many frames of light in each second... right?


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dark coder
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Posted: 15th Mar 2006 19:12
so your suggesting that light is some sort of projector on steroids? and how are eyes 24fps? isnt that just films and tv`s

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Posted: 15th Mar 2006 19:50
I spoke with an alien once...

Matt Rock
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Posted: 15th Mar 2006 20:55
You're right... the human eye can see 60 frames per second. So that would be 4996540.9666666666666666666666667 frames of light per second that you'd need to see at light speed. And no, I'm not suggesting that "light is some sort of projector on steroids,"... you can't see something unless there's light illuminating it, can you? No, you can't. So, either you wouldn't be able to see anything at all, because you're moving too fast to recognize it, or you'd see a strobe effect of multiple images from point A to point B. But again, that's my opinion and we have no method of testing anyone's theories out yet.


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Oneka
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Posted: 15th Mar 2006 21:17
iam not calling you a Juberish, its my way of saying randomness


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Posted: 15th Mar 2006 21:49
I come from Skaro. `nuff said.

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Posted: 15th Mar 2006 23:58
Actually say that there is a given point A where you start from, and you're going to point B, and there is an object C near that path. Now regardless of whether you are travelling or not, the light from object C will reflect into where your eyesight will travel once you go at lightspeed. So when you get to the light that was being reflected off of object C, it will enter your eye no matter your speed. Just a thought.

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Pincho Paxton
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Posted: 16th Mar 2006 00:58
You don't need to even move to get from here to 1 billion miles away.

Spooky science creates particles at a distance...

What you would need to do is create all of a persons particles at a distance. That is the future, but not any of our future.

Philip
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Posted: 16th Mar 2006 01:23
Quote: "Spooky science creates particles at a distance...

What you would need to do is create all of a persons particles at a distance. That is the future, but not any of our future."


The fundamental problem of quantum entanglement is that it appears due to its essentially probablistic nature no useful information can be transmitted by the method. Hence, if you tried to "quantum teleport" yourself, quite apart from destroying your original self, there would only be a % chance of YOU being created at the other end. Not exactly a great sales pitch for the first willing volunteers, hmm?

See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantum_entanglement

As for travelling faster than light, this appears to be forbidden in ordinary spacetime by good old e = mc2. To achieve light speed you'd need infinite energy. Its getting to the speed of light that is the trick - if it could be exceeded then mathematically travelling faster than light speed becomes easier (although it does implicitly involve time travel too).

Scientists have postulated that an entirely theoretical drive based on the well known but not well understood Casimir effect might produce FTL travel. But do we have even the remotest clue how to build this entirely theoretical drive? Nope. At this point its strictly a fantasy I'm afraid.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Faster_than_light

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Jeku
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Posted: 16th Mar 2006 02:02
Quote: "You're right... the human eye can see 60 frames per second. "


I don't understand--- anyone have links for this? I just don't believe our eyes see in a FPS kind of measurable way. Please prove me wrong.

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Posted: 16th Mar 2006 02:08 Edited at: 16th Mar 2006 02:11
Oneka... It was kinda a joke...

if time stands still, and you travel over a distance...
v=d/t
so if you get to another galaxy
v=10^10^10/1

Quote: "Now answer me this question: If we were to go out and look for life on other planets, and we aren't going to look where we find water, what are we going to look for? If you can figure that out, NASA and the world's top universities will all be throwing money your way, and lots of it, because you'll have solved a riddle they've been trying to answer for decades/ centuries."


First off, it depends on the environment. If the environment is arid and rocky that indicates that any life form their will be higly immobile. Why? We are mobile because OF water. it is a fluid that maintains the shape of the cells and allows motion via lubricant and elasticity.

If the environment is earth like, we can expect to see mobile creatures.

If the environment is gasious expect small creatures, like birds, only better. These guys will be able to change their internal presures to rise in the atmospher. Due to this ability they will be able to maintain an altitude with little work.


It isn't hard to imagine different life... we just don't like to.



E=MC^2 is similar to the formula for kinetic energy Ke=MV^2/2

If you fully destroy a mass greater then half of your own, you will produce enough joules to go faster then the speed of light. But wait, you say, you don't get 100% conversion... well...

PV=nRT
T=J/(n*MM*Cp)
P=RJ/(MM*Cp*V)
J=E
E=mC^2
m=grams=g
P=R*g*C^2/(MM*Cp*V)
P=N-s
N-s=g*m/s

Velocity=R*mass*C^2/(Molar Mass of Gas * Specific Heat of Gas * Volume of Chamber * Mass of Propelled Object)

Now we just convert the energy of destroying some mass to heat, and heat up a gas to provive massive amounts of thrust. Of course this equation does not account for anything OUTSIDE the combustion chamber. But you get the general idea. I am not saying it is right, all I did was plug formuals together in a resonable fasion. It shows that formulas can not be trusted for what they are, in this case I can travel faster then the speed of light because there is no restrictions on the three formulas I combinded.



I also think that you can't talk about Casimir unless you actually study it. What you said is the equivalent of a medical student saying we don't know how to build a computer because he never studied engineering to make sense of things. Quantom theorists can probally give you all kinds of situations where the Casimir Effect may occur. Other people might be able to tell you how to produce those those situations. The issue? Money and Time. Never will we be right on the first guess, and in order to narrow it down you need a lot of money and time, and staff... stuff...

Most everything you need to build it is right there in front of you, the problem is the ammount of data. Some data helps, some doesn't some is conflicting... And until we have civilian space craft going to saturn to see the rings, no idiot will even DARE working on it. Why? Patents. They want to reach a large commercail base, NASA will buy what? 3 engines a year? It would be billions of dollars wasted. And no one will do it just for the discovery. Sorry, but America is totally driven by Corporations, they provide the money, they provide the equiptment... you just have to give them 1500% back.



Jeku... I am really getting annoyed at that. Ever since I was corrected I looked at that like what the hell was I thinking. We do have an FPS, technically at 100FPS we can't diferentiate the refresh rate of a television. Although at 200FPS air force pilots can acuratly name air craft. However this is a flash from a projector in a dark room. How fast our eye can really see? I'd say even faster then 200FPS, but we filter out the rest.

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Gil Galvanti
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Posted: 16th Mar 2006 03:26
Quote: "Jeku... I am really getting annoyed at that. Ever since I was corrected I looked at that like what the hell was I thinking. We do have an FPS, technically at 100FPS we can't diferentiate the refresh rate of a television. Although at 200FPS air force pilots can acuratly name air craft. However this is a flash from a projector in a dark room. How fast our eye can really see? I'd say even faster then 200FPS, but we filter out the rest."

I'm with Jeku, I don't understand how the eye can be equated to frames per second. What do you mean? What does that mean? What does it mean that at 200FPS air force pilots can accuratly name aircraft?

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Posted: 16th Mar 2006 03:29
Quote: "I'm with Jeku, I don't understand how the eye can be equated to frames per second. What do you mean? What does that mean? What does it mean that at 200FPS air force pilots can accuratly name aircraft?"
the human eye can only proccess a certian amount of images per a certian unit of time, i ont know what those are though

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Posted: 16th Mar 2006 04:00
Correction, the HUMAN MIND relays a certain number of frames per second to another portion of the brain where conscience thought occurs.
Do I always have to make it sound... stupid?


My argument was not an argument but a statment of several facts, I really hate it when I have to be so blatantly obvious because then you argue back that it is wrong, cause you did not see what I presented to you. Re-read that qoute, if you do you will see I was trying to get you to understand that the mind filters what we see.

Edited Quote:

We technically don't see the color black flashing at 100FPS. But we do see light in a dark room at 200FPS, and accuratly. This should have been enough for you to start thinking... why can't we see black, but can see light?

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Posted: 16th Mar 2006 05:31
I'll bet that not everyone sees things at the same speed.

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Posted: 16th Mar 2006 05:49
I agree with Jeku, but I read somewhere that the fastest a person could see is 60 FPS. I could be wrong though... it was years ago that I read that and I don't remember where, even. Hell, it could have been something from a cinematography class in college that I'm mixing up in the back of my mind.

Anyway, the rate doesn't matter, because I'm pretty dang sure the human eye can't see at the speed of light... in fact, I'm positive of that. The six million dollar man couldn't see that fast. Hence my belief that we wouldn't see anything.


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Posted: 16th Mar 2006 05:49
Quote: "I'll bet that not everyone sees things at the same speed."

Probably not exactly, but at 60fps the motion is too fast for us to tell the difference. Hey, what's the refresh rate of tv programs? 24, or close to it, right?

As to if I believe in E.T.s, of course I do. I'd be a fool to think that there could only be life on Earth. Think about the size of the galaxy. You can't. It's too big to really comprehend, let alone the entire universe. Now say that one in a million stars has a life bearing planet. That still means there's millions and millions of life bearing planets total. Read some accurate science fiction. Our galaxy could be crammed full of life bearing planets, and we'd just be too far away to see the star, let alone to see if the star even has planets.

Gil Galvanti
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Posted: 16th Mar 2006 06:04
Even if we knew they were there, It would take longer than this earth has been around to reach them, as it is impossible to travel faster than the speed of light

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Posted: 16th Mar 2006 06:50
Well, it's impossible to travel at the speed of light as it is

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Posted: 16th Mar 2006 07:27 Edited at: 16th Mar 2006 07:42
@ChrisK:
Then theres still a chance.

At the first guy:
I agree with you. And you know the evedance of water? that means that no matter what, there was once life on mars. water is alive, its a scintific fact
And yea. 1,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000
,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000
,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000
ATLEAST stars out there, theres gotta be SOMETHING better then humans.

Quote: "inorder to have solid based entitys"


A little too much FPSC, Merranvo

God damnit kenny!
Check this out, it actualy works!
http://laptops.freepay.com/?r=28497100
Pincho Paxton
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Posted: 16th Mar 2006 09:27
Quote: "but I read somewhere that the fastest a person could see is 60 FPS. I could be wrong though... it was years ago....."


That is false information...There is a lot of false infomation out there. When the Amiga was around they said that the most colours a human eye could perceive was 16 million. Now we are doubling and trebling that number. I knew it was wrong anyway because there was banding with 16 million colours, and adjacent colours should not show a distinct band of change.

Chilled Programmer 420
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Posted: 16th Mar 2006 11:14
speed of light 186000 miles/second

eyes fps varys, 60fps - 200+fps
lets say 100 fps

thats 1860 miles between each image with 100 images a second

that would just be a blur

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Joh
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Posted: 16th Mar 2006 14:03
What I understand from what Mosillivo is saying. The mind is what "sees" or processes what goes through your eyes. The difference being in what you "see" and what you "think" you see.

Offhand I can't remember the details on how the eye filters light etc. But look at some literal terms and simple experiments.

If you are watching a movie, wether its played back at 15fps, 30fps, 60fps or 100fps, you still "see" the movie. But the question really is, how much of each frame do you "see" and process? This varies from person to person of course as it is dependant on your brain processing the information.
A common example is to insert a single frame of something completely different to what you are viewing. At slower rates it is easily detectable by the average viewer. Experiments have shown that at higher speeds, viewers claim not to have seen it but later recall a memory of it (Re:subliminal messaging experiments). Somewhere around 60fps is where most viewers seem to miss the frame, but film editors usually spot it (like the airforce pilots).

This is just regurgitated from what I have read. Not claiming as fact nor my opinion, so don't bite, I'm just trying hard to look clever.

On surviving extreme conditions:
These cute lil critters can take some punishment.
http://nfttu.blogspot.com/2006/03/water-bears-worlds-toughest-animal.html

As for extra terrestrials:
Who knows what's really out there.
http://www.newsroom.ucla.edu/page.asp?RelNum=6903
In fact who knows whats here!
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060308/ap_on_sc/france_new_crustacean
(No its not in some fancy french restaraunt, although a salad plate was mentioned.)

Jeku
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Posted: 16th Mar 2006 18:17
Quote: "And you know the evedance of water? that means that no matter what, there was once life on mars. water is alive, its a scintific fact"


Huh? Water is alive? Scientific fact, or theory?

Benjamin
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Posted: 16th Mar 2006 18:37
Quote: "I agree with you. And you know the evedance of water? that means that no matter what, there was once life on mars. water is alive, its a scintific fact"

o rly? So tell me, why are they STILL trying to figure out if there was life on mars ever?

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Teh Go0rfmeister
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Posted: 16th Mar 2006 18:47
Quote: "theres gotta be SOMETHING better then humans."

how do you define better?
are dogs better than cats? if so, how? and what makes your oppinion right?

and for the record, 99.9999999999999% of life needs water, but water itself is just molecules of ATOMS. atoms are not cells. water is not life. water does not need life. just because water exists, doesnt mean life exists.

atoms != cells
life ~= water but water != life.

Chilled Programmer 420
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Posted: 16th Mar 2006 18:48
what?!? water isnt alive! where did that come from?

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=ChrisB=
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Posted: 16th Mar 2006 18:55
Looking through a ton of high magnification digitol microscopes, helping my friends dad do tests on water..... Doing trips with research boats... I cant belive you guys didnt know that water is alive. Thats kinda sad. Even my 8 year old brother knows that, and he's a grade behind in scince.

God damnit kenny!
Check this out, it actualy works!
http://laptops.freepay.com/?r=28497100
Chilled Programmer 420
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Posted: 16th Mar 2006 19:10
bet u didnt know glass has the property of a liquid, so teqniqually glass is a liqued.

but water is h20 1 hydrogen atom, and 2 oxygen atoms, wheres the life?

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