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Geek Culture / who believes in extra terestrials?

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FROGGIE!
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Posted: 16th Mar 2006 19:48
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Water isnt alive, like you say, its just 2 hydrogen and 1 oxygen atom. However water does act differently to most other liquids because of the Oxygens 2 lone pairs of electrons - these form hydrogen bonds with the Hydrogen atoms of other water molecules.
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Jeku
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Posted: 16th Mar 2006 19:51
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Quote: "Looking through a ton of high magnification digitol microscopes, helping my friends dad do tests on water..... Doing trips with research boats..."


Um, that proves that water on EARTH has organisms that are alive. That doesn't mean that water *itself* is alive. Is your house alive because your family lives in it?

Come on.


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Matt Rock
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Posted: 16th Mar 2006 20:13
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Mars had water. It's fact. I'm pretty sure NASA scientists know more than any of us do, and they don't argue that Mars had water. The question is, did Mars ever have life during the time when it had water... and if it did, what sort of life was it.

Water isn't alive. It's a material like rock, and I've never had a conversation with a rock, even though my last name is Rock


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=ChrisB=
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Posted: 16th Mar 2006 22:59
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We never got that far, but i know that we took samples of watter from about 10 differant areas in the pacific, used a REALY high power microscope, they all had the EXACT SAME thinks crawling in them. all the scintists told me that thse little things were organisims that live in all water. If this can be prooven wrong, then please tell me.

But think:
What does plankton eat? Smaller plankton. And they eat? even smaller plankton. well, SOMEWHERE, theres bactirial life in that water, that's part of the water. Please explain that not meaning water=life.

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Chilled Programmer 420
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Posted: 16th Mar 2006 23:19
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naybe its somthing that lives in sea water if all the samples came from the pacific.

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Chenak
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Posted: 16th Mar 2006 23:29
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Again that's water on Earth, water on Mars might be completely void of life. The only way to actually find out is to retrieve some samples and examine them, otherwise it is just a guess.
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Gil Galvanti
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Posted: 16th Mar 2006 23:45
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Water itself isn't alive, but often (maybe always ) carries microorganisms in it, but the compound H2O isn't alive. And obviously they search for water because all life (as we know it) needs water to survive, so you find water...you find life.

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Les Horribres
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Posted: 16th Mar 2006 23:53
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99.9999999999999% From the world of irrational statistics. Thank you very much. You might be able to get away with 99.9% of life on EARTH needs water, but you can NEVER say all life needs water. And your decimal is too small.

Joh, you are a little wrong in what I was trying to say. In a DARK room, air force pilots can see the plane flash, this would be much different if it were a flash while watching TV. This implys that we see what is important. Which, for the most part, is true. And because of this implication, we know that we are seeing at a rate which we wish to see. A person can see at higher FPS if they work in an environment requiring them to, yes. And that is a good attachment to what I said.


Can someone please remeber, FPS is much different then refresh rate. If your program has 10 FPS, it doensn't mean the monitor starts to refresh at 10 hertz, it continues at 60 hertz. TV's don't refresh at 24 hertz, they have 24FPS with >60 hertz.


And can some one please point me to a subliminal message that actually works? I mean it is not like your mind is going to save data it consiters so redundant that it won't even send it to your conscience attention. Heck, if subliminal messages worked, we would all be bankrupt because companies would use them all the time. Undetectable via conscience thought, yet causes an result... what could be better?

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Posted: 17th Mar 2006 00:03
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subliminal messaging is completly illigal and banned from all types of advertisent.

thats probily why they dont

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Posted: 17th Mar 2006 00:04
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subliminal messaging is completly illigal and banned from all types of advertisent.

thats probily why they dont.

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=ChrisB=
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Posted: 17th Mar 2006 00:36
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Quote: "TV's don't refresh at 24 hertz, they have 24FPS with 60 hertz.
"

No, they have 29.27 FPS@60Hz if there NTSC, and have 25FPS@60Hz if there PAL or SECAM.
jeasus merranvo, learn your freeking TV standards... among other things.

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Les Horribres
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Posted: 17th Mar 2006 00:52
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I was just quoting the FPS given up there...

somewhere, up there, I will see the sun, and you are up there... stealing my fun.

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=ChrisB=
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Posted: 17th Mar 2006 01:04
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Uhh.... lol.

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Pincho Paxton
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Posted: 17th Mar 2006 01:24
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subliminal messaging is completly illigal and banned from all types of advertisent.

thats probily why they dont.





Whoa... what made me type that?????

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Pincho Paxton
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Posted: 17th Mar 2006 01:25
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Double posting is like a subliminal message!!!!

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Pincho Paxton
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Posted: 17th Mar 2006 01:26
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Treble posting can blow your senses!!!!

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Matt Rock
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Posted: 17th Mar 2006 01:41 Edited at: 17th Mar 2006 01:43
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Quote: "Heck, if subliminal messages worked, we would all be bankrupt because companies would use them all the time. Undetectable via conscience thought, yet causes an result... what could be better?"

Quote: "subliminal messaging is completly illigal and banned from all types of advertisent."


Wrong wrong wrong. Subliminal messages are used today in advertising, and more often than not, it's considered successful by certain marketing people (Camel's naked guy, for instance). One of the most famous cases of subliminal messages came in a political ad for George W. Bush's 2000 campaign , where the ad flashed the word "RATS" when they showed democrats. Coca Cola and Pepsi openly admit to using them, as does several other companies. The first "Dude, I'm getting a Dell" ad had a flash message that said something along the lines of "you need to check your e-mail" or something like that, according to a report by TechTV several years ago. They aren't illegal, not in the U.S. anyway, and if they were then companies wouldn't be so open to trying them every so often. Lots of marketing execs think they work, while others think they're silly.

Quote: "The Federal Communications Commission has no regulation barring subliminal advertising, but generally considers it deceptive. Additionally, advertisers doubt the effectiveness of the tactic. "

^ Taken from that CNN article I posted above


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Scraggle
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Posted: 17th Mar 2006 12:29 Edited at: 17th Mar 2006 12:30
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Subliminal advertising IS NOT LEGAL in the UK.

Advertising Standards Authority. I refer you to Chapter IV, Article 10, Paragraph 3.


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Delta Games
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Posted: 17th Mar 2006 12:46
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I have a huge theroy to do with the universe etc but here is what i beleave.
God created the uiverse a very very very long time ago. then he decided to make us on earth he could have also made life on other planets as well. The universe is allways getting bigger at a faster and faster rate (FACT). I didnt go into all the details there but the universe didnt just happen it could have started with the "big bang" but god would have been the one who started it.
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dark coder
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Posted: 17th Mar 2006 13:26
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sounded good untill you mentioned the god bit, and how is the universe getting bigger and faster a fact? i thought it was slowing down to eventually go backwards or something.

i do agree that it is rather strange that the universe is here and lots of people are alive and that should apparently be impossible, but i dont think that you can say that some higher being created it all with a mere thought, as there is no proof that there is a god when was the last time you saw a river being parted?

Halowed are the ori.
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Pincho Paxton
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Posted: 17th Mar 2006 14:02
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Quote: "how is the universe getting bigger and faster a fact? i thought it was slowing down to eventually go backwards or something."


No it's getting faster, and will never collapse. Mainly because there was no Big bang anyway, and God isn't what people think it is. It's an acronym.

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Freddy 007
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Posted: 17th Mar 2006 14:13
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Quote: "i thought it was slowing down to eventually go backwards or something."


Yeah, I read that somewhere too. I didn't really understand it, as I though that the Universe would just expand forever...


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Scraggle
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Posted: 17th Mar 2006 14:46
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I don't want to turn this into a theological debate (especially as that is a forum taboo!) and I am certainly not going to put forward my views on the subject ... but since God was mentioned as the Creator. Did you know that Prof. Steven Hawking didn't believe in God before he wrote 'A brief history of time'. After that, someone asked him 'what could have caused the Big Bang if it wasn't God?' ... He is now a firm believer!

Anyway, I think that is enough on the subject ... moving swiftly on:

The theory of the 'Big Collapse' as it is known is still under scrutiny and nobody has yet proved if the Universe will indeed collapse in on itself or continue expanding indefinately.
One thing is for certain ... either way, I won't see it


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Pincho Paxton
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Posted: 17th Mar 2006 14:47
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Quote: "I though that the Universe would just expand forever...
"


It will. The slow down and reverse theory has been binned.

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Chilled Programmer 420
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Posted: 17th Mar 2006 14:49
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its all just theorys, ever growing, growing then shrinking, truth is no1 knows, and it will be a good number of years before we find out.

as for god and religion, i am undecided, but if i had to say, id sday im not religouse, but here is my theory.

just say there is a god, where did he come from?, is he on his own?, what does he do all day every day?, (if there is such a thing as time there).

and how did almost every race of people come up with the sdame idear of religion? naybe there is some truth behidnd it all, naybe all the major religions are true, each god has his own people, they see who can do the best, you never know.

but if there is a god, 1 or more, why havent we seen or heard anything from them for well over a thousand years?, we hear all these religiouse storys of gods doing things, giving powers to men who lead, but it defiantly does all seem to be just storys, why did they stop.

also if a god created life on earth? i think its very likley he did the same with another planet, dont you?

but at teh ned of the day, i dont think there are any gods, or true religions, theres evedence of evolution that goes against the bible, and if adam and eve were supposed to be the first 2 people alive, why was there people all over the world? thats proof that there was no adam and eve.

anyway, ill leave you to make you own decision, this isnt here to put down peoples believes, this is just my views.

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Scraggle
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Posted: 17th Mar 2006 14:50 Edited at: 17th Mar 2006 14:51
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Where did you get your info from Pincho?

I am a subscriber to 'New Scientist' which is where stuff like this is headline news but I haven't seen any proof either way of the possible demise of the Universe.

I am not saying your wrong ... I would just like to know where you get your info?


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dark coder
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Posted: 17th Mar 2006 14:53
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what if adam and eves only child was a girl and eve died, ponder that one.

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Pincho Paxton
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Posted: 17th Mar 2006 16:23
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Quote: "Where did you get your info from Pincho?

I am a subscriber to 'New Scientist' which is where stuff like this is headline news but I haven't seen any proof either way of the possible demise of the Universe.

I am not saying your wrong ... I would just like to know where you get your info?"


The reversing universe theory depended on the universe showing signs of slowing down. When they looked for the signs of it slowing down, they found the opposite, and it is in fact expanding faster each day. Therefore the old theory has to be binned, and so does the big bang theory. It's just a matter of time before they admit it.

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Scraggle
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Posted: 17th Mar 2006 17:17
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Quote: "It's just a matter of time before they admit it."


... ok then. So, despite your vehement insistance that the expanding universe theory has been proved, it is in fact just your opinion.


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Pincho Paxton
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Posted: 17th Mar 2006 18:18
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Quote: ".. ok then. So, despite your vehement insistance that the expanding universe theory has been proved, it is in fact just your opinion."


Pardon?

The expanding universe theory?

It is well know that the universe is expanding. Everybody knows it, and it has been proved many times. You probably mean the collapsing universe theory, and it can't collapse if it is accelerating.

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VR2
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Posted: 17th Mar 2006 19:42
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Just to go back to the original topic a little, if we say that the universe is 14 billion years old (?) and the earth is 4 billion years old and to make a planet like earth, you need light AND heavy elements, I dunno like carbon, say?

These heavy elements only come from supernova. 1 supernova makes certain elements but to get to the real heavy stuff you need at least 2 generations of supernova.

Lets say that the life expactancy of our sun is around 8 or 10 billion years? Lets say that a larger, supernova capable star's life expectancy would be about half that?

So you could say that it would take at least (2 X 5) or 10 billion years to have your 2 generations of supernova, to actually MAKE a planet like th earth.

So if the earth really is 4 billion years old, and (10 + 4) = 14 = Age of the Universe, then that means that the earth was made just about as fast as possible, and life on earth also began about as fast as possible (after 1 billion years or so?).

So we shouldn't really expect life (as we know it) to have evolved much before "we" (all life on this planet) showed up. You might suppose that there simply isn't any life out there which has been around much longer than "we" have.

So it could well be that we, and any others out there, are about as advanced as you could hope to get - we are all about the same age, give or take a billion years or so.

If this is true then it hampers any communication between us. If we are all living "in the same time" (ish) then there just hasn't been enough time for those far off radio signals to reach us yet.

And there could be another problem too: we simply don't know what the life expectancy of a technological race is. Will WE implode on ourselves, wipe ourselves out by pollution or war, or will we continue to grow and, evenually colonise perhaps our solar system or other local systems in our galaxy?

Personally i'm not optimistic, and feel that a technological race could have as little as a few thousand years before they become extinct, for whatever reason, either of their own making or not. Mass extinctions have happened before on this planet and will happen again, its just a matter of time. The way I see it, we are like a virus to our planet, having been just too successful for our own, or our planet's good.

We have such a limited knowledge of our universe, and its hard to imagine our brains are even capable of comprehending the real nature of things, we are a product of our universe, to be self-aware is one thing, but to understand the nature of our being is quite another. Its not like a fish can truly comprehend being in a fish bowl, all he knows is that there is no escape, how could he possibly comprehend that he's on a window sill, in a house, in a street, in a town, in a city, in a country, on a planet, in a solare system, in a galaxy, in a universe? He can only relate to what he knows & has experience of, and the same goes for us.
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Pincho Paxton
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Posted: 17th Mar 2006 20:52 Edited at: 17th Mar 2006 20:53
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Not everything appeared at the same time. There are still things being made right now. It only takes a couple of hundred years to develop a UFO type technology, so they only need to be 200 years more advanced than us, I mean if you compare our rockets with our sopwith camels, fockers, and fools falling off a cliff face on a bicycle. But I doubt they could reach us anyway.

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Matt Rock
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Posted: 17th Mar 2006 22:20
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Quote: "The universe is allways getting bigger at a faster and faster rate (FACT)"

Until you see the edge of the universe, you can't say that it's a fact, and you can't rightly prove it, either. there's an entire universe (literally) of physics that humans haven't explored, nor could they comprehend if they did so explore them tomorrow.

It's right back to the "animals without water" debate of earlier. As others have pointed out, just because we don't know of animals that can exist without water doesn't mean there aren't animals like that elsewhere, and the same can be said of physics... what works here doesn't mean it's going to work everywhere. And until we go and see it, we won't know for sure. For a zillion years people thought the world was flat until some bloke went and tried to sail off the edge of the globe


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Jeku
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Posted: 18th Mar 2006 00:31
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Quote: "what if adam and eves only child was a girl and eve died, ponder that one."


Adam would probably have children with his daughter. Remember, Adam and Eve's children must have had children so it must have been acceptable in the beginning of time.

It's kind of hard to keep religion out of a discussion on extra-terrestrials, but let's just say I'd rather like to think that we will never know the full truth until after we die


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Pincho Paxton
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Posted: 18th Mar 2006 02:35 Edited at: 18th Mar 2006 02:36
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Quote: "Until you see the edge of the universe, you can't say that it's a fact, and you can't rightly prove it, either."


With planets moving away from us, at an increasing rate, the universe is almost certain to be getting bigger. The alternatives that the universe isn't getting bigger are too abstract. Like an example of the universe not getting bigger is.....

All of the planets moving away from us are crashing into a wall.
All of the planets moving away from us suddenly vanish.
All of the planets moving away from us are going into black holes.

So it is I'd say pretty certain that the universe is getting bigger.

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Gil Galvanti
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Posted: 18th Mar 2006 04:00
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Quote: "It's kind of hard to keep religion out of a discussion on extra-terrestrials, but let's just say I'd rather like to think that we will never know the full truth until after we die "

But then again...the Bible never says anything about God not creating other lifeforms, does it? What if the account of the creation of life on earth is just one of many planets? I'm a Christian, but I believe there may be other lifeforms God created .

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Matt Rock
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Posted: 18th Mar 2006 04:08
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Quote: "With planets moving away from us, at an increasing rate, the universe is almost certain to be getting bigger."


The problem I have with that is, if you think that there's intelligent alien life out there that doesn't need water, then why would you believe that physics in our visible universe are the same throughout the entire universe? Maybe one side is expanding and the other is contracting, or maybe the whole thing pulsates in size. Or maybe it's moving somehow... we don't know and we have no way of telling until we see the entire universe.


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Les Horribres
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Posted: 18th Mar 2006 04:40
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Just as a Note, I thought it was the Big Crunch, or atleast that was what it was listed as when I read it.

Now for some nice debating.

There are hundreds of theorys out there dipicting universal doomsday. We have no clue which of them are right.

Some people belive that eventually a giant black hole will form and suck the universe up...
On a related note, some belive that all starts will become blackholes, and something about everything degrating.
And then you have the big crunch.

What you don't understand pinco is the simple fact that if there is deceleration, then there is a force acting against it. Think of it like a balloon, if you blow it up it will expand, but the instant you stop blowing (and holding) it deflates. Some people thing that there is enough force outside of the universe to collapse us like a balloon. And it may already be happening, WE may never know...

People who don't belive that there is enough force to crush the universe think in more morbid and... well... stupid terms. An article I read in discover told that eventually all stars will become black holes or netron stars.
Do you really think that that is the end? We have only been around for how long? And have only REALLY began astronomy how long? Don't cite the anchent civilizations, most of their work was lost. And they were ill equipt to detect what we are detecting now. So what? 50 years of good data? We would need to monitor the night skys for mabey five thousand years just to understand what is going on.


Any theorys made now are just that, theorys. Disproven by the shere fact that there IS no REAL corroborating data. Sure you can conjure up some small fact that supports you. But 50 years of Astromony, even 200 years is not enough. Even my 5000 is severly streching it. The life of the universe by far surpasses our own. Our brief studys do no good when what we are dealing with occurs over thousands of years. Expecally if we don't know what to look for.

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Pincho Paxton
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Posted: 18th Mar 2006 18:54
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Quote: "The problem I have with that is, if you think that there's intelligent alien life out there that doesn't need water, then why would you believe that physics in our visible universe are the same throughout the entire universe?"


We can see the physics working billions of miles away. That's how we see the planets moving away from us, but we can't see the water.


Quote: "What you don't understand pinco is the simple fact that if there is deceleration, then there is a force acting against it. Think of it like a balloon, if you blow it up it will expand, but the instant you stop blowing (and holding) it deflates. Some people thing that there is enough force outside of the universe to collapse us like a balloon. And it may already be happening, WE may never know..."


Well yes, if the big bang is still blowing, we will still see expansion, but we would be part of the explosion, which I believe would be disasterous. You say that the universe may already be collapsing? With planets moving away from us, how can the universe be collapsing?

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Les Horribres
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Posted: 19th Mar 2006 02:26
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That light is HOW old again? Remeber, what we are seeing now may have occured millions of years ago.

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Posted: 19th Mar 2006 02:52
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Well, I'm not talking about my own personal observations, I'm talking about scientists observations that the expansion is accelerating. I'm sure that scientists would have taken the billions of years ago into account. Scientists say that the universe is still expanding.

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Agent Dink
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Posted: 19th Mar 2006 08:54
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Getting back to "ExtraTerrestrials" as we call them, heres my point of view, its sorta "religious" so I hope to not violate any rules, but here it is anyway.

I believe that Aliens do indeed exist, though I do not believe they actually live on or come from other planets, (this is where some of you may find it gets a little wacky )I believe they are an incarnation of demonic beings, making folks wonder things just like this thread "Is there life out there?" Leading people to look to "science" rather than God, and since most science is trying to dethrone God it is a rather successful campaign they are leading. I am a firm believer in the Creation record (and it most definitely can be backed up with science ), and the Bible, flame me if you want, or delete this if its against the rules, but there is even stuff in the Bible about "aliens" and how they... interacted we'll call it with people way back (you may have heard of Nephilim?). I'm not trying to get into a religion vs science debate or anything, I am just stating my views, and theres no other way around mentioning these things.

Does anyone else share a similar view?

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Agent Dink
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Posted: 19th Mar 2006 09:20
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Oh, and sorry for the double post, but...

Quote: "as there is no proof that there is a god when was the last time you saw a river being parted?"
- Dark Coder

When was the last time you (or anyone) saw a monkey give birth to a human baby? Or some random monkey/human mixture walk out of the jungle? Or the univers explode out of nothing or, I could go on... You can't say something like that when it can be said right back at any other theory is all I wanted to say

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dark coder
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Posted: 19th Mar 2006 09:40
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so your saying the bible is the theory?

althoguh i dont believe in god or any religion as i think there just an excuse to make up for there lack of knowledge at the time.

i do believe there are planets out there with life, not sure if they are as clever as humans perhaps some big jungle planet with lots of dinosaur kinda things would seem possible.

Halowed are the ori.
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nuclear glory
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Posted: 19th Mar 2006 09:47 Edited at: 19th Mar 2006 10:00
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I hear there's an invincible form of bacteria that lives on Mars and on Earth alike. They tried freezing it (sub zero temps), tried frying it (isanely high temps), and it just won't die. Fortunately, I also hear the bacteria is completely harmless. For the life of me I can't remember where I "heard" all this, it wasn't the voices in my closet though.

Does bacteria count as life?

I should see if I can find the details about it online.

edit:
Pff, looking around it looks like a dodgy finding. Nobody knows what, if or when. Forget I said anything. <walks of ranting> Mumbles: "damn hearsay!"

edit2:
Place your bets now. How long before this gets locked?

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Agent Dink
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Posted: 19th Mar 2006 09:59 Edited at: 19th Mar 2006 10:01
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No, no. I just meant that I could say the same thing about evolution, as you can say about the Bible and rivers being parted. I respect that its your belief system, and I hope you respect mine, and I didn't mean to offend if I did. I was just stating that I could say the same thing with any number of evolution/big bang sorta theories as you could say about the Bible or God. It all comes down to what you believe and what you want to do with your life, if you choose evolution, thats up to you, I choose to view life with a higher purpose and all that stuff, rather than possibly coming from a pool of amoeba 100 million years ago.

Quote: "althoguh i dont believe in god or any religion as i think there just an excuse to make up for there lack of knowledge at the time."


Whether you believe it or not, I can scientifically prove to you probably all of the creation record with a little research. And even a good majority of non-creationist scientists actually ask why the theory of evolution is still taught in school as most of it has been proven false. So I don't look at it as a lack of knowledge or anything. It does have very deep scientific value.

But anyhow I said I didn't want to start a religion vs evolution debate on the forum as its against the rules... wouldn't wanna get noob slapped or anything now would we

But life out there, I do think there is a chance of bacterias, and microscopic living organisms, maybe.... I dunno, lol.

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Pincho Paxton
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Posted: 19th Mar 2006 12:01
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The truth is that God doesn't explain anything. If you put God into any theory you have to explain where God came from, so really you are back at the beginning explaining where man came from. God is just a circle of arguments. Evolution has a beginning, and leads up to today, especially if you take the big bang out of the equation, and replace it with my perpetual motion of the universe theory.

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Oneka
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Posted: 19th Mar 2006 13:05
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@Pincho Paxton

Taking that into perspective, then you cant explain anything with anything, because where did the stuff to make the big bang come from? if you say it could have just been there and thats all there is, then that is the same reason someone could say that god exists..... iam not trying to dissprove anyone iam just putting it out there

Anyway....what exactly is light anyway? is it composed of atoms or what? if so then it definately would be possible for us to achieve such speeds....but anyway...what makes a quark? if they make atoms that make molecules that makes elements, that makes compounds, that make organic material, that makes cells, that makes complex cells, that make organs, that makes something living........when you get done to it....when are just nothing but inanimate objects....so what is life?.........


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Oh yeah and just so you know its Oh-nek-a not One-ka!
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Les Horribres
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Posted: 19th Mar 2006 16:43 Edited at: 19th Mar 2006 16:58
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Pincho, you do understand that light does not travel at an infinatly fast rate, right?

What ANYONE ON EARTH obserbs may be millions of years old, it may be greater then that. But it is an undenyied fact.

Oneka, the question you should be asking is what is matter? What can we do with it? We do know that information can travel faster then the speed of light, can matter be altercated to travel as information. What is this world we really are seeing?

However religion requires undenyied acts of faith for it to uphold. And then there is the question which religion is right?
To finally bring it to a close, Cristinanity happened in Europe. What about the Americas? What about Africa? Did your god consiter those people SOO insignifigant that he didn't CARE about their Native Religions? Only White Europeans?

Whether you believe it or not, I can scientifically prove to you probably all of the creation record with a little research.
I would like to see that.

And even a good majority of non-creationist scientists actually ask why the theory of evolution is still taught in school as most of it has been proven false.
Out of context, thus irelivant. What you just said was that there are many scientists that have Refined the ToE or made another ToE. Not that Creationism is true.

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Agent Dink
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Posted: 19th Mar 2006 18:19
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I can not explain where God came from nor can anyone else. We won't know until we get there, thats where faith comes in. But as Oneka said, where did the beginning of matter come from if not from God? If matter could just be there, surely God could just be there too.

Evolution is a faith too.

I never said they agreed with Creationism, but I said that the disaprove of evolution being taught as a fact, after all, it is just a theory...

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