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Geek Culture / Remake project: Carrier Command

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Philip
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Posted: 25th Jun 2006 21:57
Remember the fantastic game Carrier Command on the ST / Amiga?


Kenjar and I are both interested in having a crack at remaking it with DBP. In this thread we'd like to solicit interest from anyone else interested in helping with this project. Once we have collected names together, we can then divert this to an email discussion and start to discuss who is going to do what.

Please post below if you are interested. Serious forum users only. Thanks.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carrier_Command

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Kenjar
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Posted: 26th Jun 2006 11:54 Edited at: 30th Jun 2006 17:56
lol, looks like no one is interested. Trying to organize anything on these forums is often next to impossible. Even when users say they are interested 90% of them never bother to do anything about it, 5% sit in the forums dicussing it, and the last 5% get so discouraged that you end up with one or two programmers only. This really isn't the way to go about building a team, no one takes these kinds of posts seriousally anymore.

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Fallout
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Posted: 26th Jun 2006 12:02
Ughh, lost post. Short retype ...

The game looks cool, unique, sounds playable and definitely seems like a good one to remake. It also sounds really attainable. I can't see you needing more than 1 coder and 1 modeller really, as the play areas/media required sounds quite straight forward. You two are both coders aren't you? So maybe you want to make it clear exactly what type of skills you're after and jazz up the offer a bit for the lazy peeps who can't be arsed to read the Wiki link.

Either way, I hope you get it done. I never played the ST version, but it does sound like a very cool original concept and therefore worth remaking. I would offer to help myself, but I'm very busy with other projects. Good luck.

Van B
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Posted: 26th Jun 2006 12:27
Ditto Fallout, I'd like to have the time to help too, but got a lot on right now.

Carrier Command rocked though, I'd spend a happy sunday afternoon just playing with the vehicles, never got very far with the actual game but just messing with the planes and craft was fun, kinda like Hunter or MidwinterII in that regard. If you could make a multiplayer version, then you'd have kudos from allover.

I think you'll get an artistic to work with you quite easily, or at least get the vehicle models made - I'm sure there's still demand for these free-roaming style games.

Aegrescit medendo
Nicholas Thompson
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Posted: 26th Jun 2006 13:25
I LOVED THAT GAME! I'd love to help but dont have time to dedicate myself to the project. I'll keep an eye on this thread though...

Are you planning on keeping the same kind of polygon-ated graphics or are you going to 21st-century-arize it?

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Kenjar
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Posted: 26th Jun 2006 13:51 Edited at: 1st Jul 2006 14:19
No plans have been made. I don't know about Philip, but the first version I invisage is as close, both graphically and playabily, to the original game. There is an old DOS PC version, I'k like to use that as a template. Version 2, providing V1 is completed, can be updated with more modern graphics and physics.

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Nicholas Thompson
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Posted: 26th Jun 2006 14:10
Sounds like a good idea! I assume you'd set a Wiki up for this too (JOKE!)

What plans do you have (apart from the above mentioned ones)? If the game is as simple as you suggest, then V1 could possibly even be made media-less so its really easy for people to copy and paste to play. I also assume an Open Source project?

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OSX Using Happy Dude
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Posted: 26th Jun 2006 14:33
Quote: "Remember the fantastic game Carrier Command on the ST / Amiga?"

Dont forget the C64 version...

I never liked it myself, but I thought you may be interested to know that there was a C64 version

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spooky
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Posted: 26th Jun 2006 14:36
I had the Amiga version and thought it was pretty good but I just didn't get into it as much as I would have liked.

I think doing a DBPro version would be good but would also be quite a daunting task. Isn't their lots of AI for the planes and boats and they can do their own thing when you don't control them?

Boo!
Philip
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Posted: 26th Jun 2006 14:54 Edited at: 26th Jun 2006 23:37
@Kenjar

Well lots of enthusiastic posts but no credible offers to help so far. :-(

My thoughts are the same as yours - start with something fairly close to the original game, then bring it up to the 21st century.

Perhaps we can set a deadline for people to express interest in helping as being, say, 4:00pm GMT on Tuesday 4 July 2006. At that point we'll see who is interested and credible, and move this discussion to email.

@Spooky

Not really. The Walrus used to just stop when you switched screens whereas the Manta just started flying in circles. You could set autopilot but that was just flying from A to B to C.

All of this is easy to do - don't forget that it was yours truly who created a DBPro library equivalent of Opensteer.

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Kenjar
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Posted: 26th Jun 2006 15:59 Edited at: 4th Jul 2006 16:51
I think it needs to be up for a week at least, there is no reason that you and I can't get together and organise a design document while people decide if they want to join in the fun.

Quote: "Sounds like a good idea! I assume you'd set a Wiki up for this too (JOKE!)"


I'm sure it was a joke, but seeing that I own a bulk website account, it's easy peasy to setup a Wiki, and would be the easiest way to centralize documentation.

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Philip
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Posted: 27th Jun 2006 00:26
Ok. A week it is.

I'm still hoping that we'll get a third and possibly even a fourth person involved. I like to think positive.

Cheer if you like bears! Cheer if you like jam sandwiches!
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Cian Rice
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Posted: 27th Jun 2006 02:00
Quote: "lol, looks like no one is interested. Trying to organize anything on these forums is often next to impossible. Even when users say they are interested 90% of them never bother to do anything about it, 5% sit in the forums dicussing it, and the last 5% get so discouraged that you end up with one or two programmers only. This really isn't the way to go about building a team, no one takes these kinds of posts seriousally anymore."


Kenjar - redefining negative.

I would try to help out but, with Pirates of Port Royale from Gil, my own projects and website (http://waza-online.com), and the possibility of doing 2D work for Eternal Destiny I'm rather caught up.

Kenjar
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Posted: 27th Jun 2006 02:02
Alot of people saying they'd like to help but... ummm... can't. And having helped run 2 largish projects, several mod projects for existing games, and various gaming clans. I know what to expect. Now if I way paying money I'm sure it would be a different matter.

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CattleRustler
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Posted: 27th Jun 2006 02:33 Edited at: 27th Jun 2006 02:33
I don't think Philip or Kenjar stated who's doing what, and what is still needed. It'd be nice to know...

I might be interested in the audio side of things if need be

Science, Mathematics, and Physics do not lie - only people do.
Kenjar
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Posted: 27th Jun 2006 13:55
The way I usually go about doing things, is to get some people together who are interested, and workout a design document together. Once that is done, everyone can start doing their bit.

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Philip
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Posted: 27th Jun 2006 15:03
Kenjar, I agree. That was my thinking too. I thought that we would see who is interested. Then move this debate across to email and then divide up tasks by who wants to do what.

Incidentally, Kenjar and I do already have the beginnings of a proper, if admirably short, design document underway.

My thoughts are that of the team, one person or group begins work on terrain (i.e. island) creation - I'm thinking procedural island generation based on one seed number, as well as creating a decent skybox and sea effect, while the other person immediately begins work on carrier, manta and walrus movement. I was going to offer to do the latter as it'll be relatively easy for me. I was also going to offer to write the multiple camera code - as they are many different camera views in Carrier Command.

Once we've got the basic 3d game world up and running, we can work on collision detection, the user interface, then on the game economics and the AI.

It'd be nice if someone could offer to create simple carrier, manta and walrus models based on the original game. I don't like modelling, although I can do it if necessary.

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Kenjar
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Posted: 27th Jun 2006 17:37 Edited at: 27th Jun 2006 17:44
I think the first stage is to analyze the game, the PC version anyway, and make a note of what screens are in it, complete with screen shots for reference, make a note of what weapons, ships and the island names are, and what the icons do. Not everyone has played the game before, so it's best to ensure that we are all on the same page. Once that is done, I think the next stage is to duplicate the media used (models, icons, weapon effects, etc) and stick it up as an archive so we are all working from the same data.

Then I feel the programming stage should start, because it's a multi-person project, I feel it would be best to do a flow chart for sections, to work out the basic game logic, or perhaps even write it up as simple pseudo code. Then we can tick off what has been done, make a list of the variables that have already been created, as well as any functions, then people can come along and see if something has been done or not, and start programming whatever section they feel needs doing.

I'd rather not go down the media less route because it means every thing is hard coded. It's easier to replace and add models then to code in new objects by hand. While V1.0 should be as faithful to the original as possible, there is no reason we can't keep the engine flexible enough for people to mod, and for us to later on create a version 2 game which would be more complicated. Also, we need to decide if this is going to be a zone game, or a single large world. I'd recommend zones because they are much easier to implement and manage.

As for e-mails, we might as well do this publicly on this thread seeing as it's already started. There's more chance of others joining in then, and if it gets too messy we can swap to e-mail afterwards, or I can easily setup a project website with forums, but I'll only start that once the project's code has started being written.

The other thing to decide now is weather or not we want this to be an open source project, covered by a creative commons or GPL agreement. I definately don't think we should charge anyone for the compiled game for V1.0, that should definately be free as it's a remake, but at the same time if we decide to take this project beyond a simple remake into something more impressive, that might be sellable, obviousally under a different name to avoid copywrite issues, than it would be highly unwise of us to publically release source code. DarkBASIC Professional could do with some more commerical games to it's name, and I'm sure TGC would support such a commerical effort by selling it from their website.

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OSX Using Happy Dude
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Posted: 27th Jun 2006 17:45 Edited at: 27th Jun 2006 17:46
I would start designing each and every little bit before you start the programming stage - if you can get the design completed before programming, it will save a lot of time later.

You can then split up the various sections, knowing each person will be following a set layout.

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Kenjar
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Posted: 27th Jun 2006 17:58
Sorry, I ment the flow chart and possible psudo code to be just that,

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adr
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Posted: 27th Jun 2006 18:12
Quote: "Even when users say they are interested 90% of them never bother to do anything about it, 5% sit in the forums dicussing it, and the last 5% get so discouraged that you end up with one or two programmers only."


Surely, there's a lightbulb joke there.

Q: How many DBPro programmers does it take to change a lightbulb?
A: Ten; Nine unhelpfully reply "lol" and 1 gets frustrated with the undocumented "use working bulb" flag.

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Fallout
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Posted: 27th Jun 2006 19:12
hehehe. How about

Q. How many Apollo users does it take to change a light bulb?
A. The answer is in the sticky at the top of the forum you frikkin noob!!!

Ok, no more lightbulb thread hi-jacks. If anyone fancies lightbulbing it themselves, I would recommend a new thread.

Kenjar
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Posted: 27th Jun 2006 19:17 Edited at: 27th Jun 2006 19:31
lol

Q:How many DarkBASIC Programmers does it take to change a light blub.

A: 50

1 to suggest the type of light blub
5 to argue that they should use a different type of lightblub
3 to create a lightblub and socket model complete with hand
2 to show model makers how to UV their models
2 to create a change light blub function
1 to flame that the light blub is being twisted in the wrong direction! Noob.
1 to download the ezrotate plugin to make lightblub rotation easier
1 to actually make the ezrotate based program work.
2 to flame that the ezrotate plugin still doesn't work for them!
3 to ask if DarkBASIC is the best language to make a light blub changing program.
10 to argue that DarkBASIC really is better then Blitz!
3 to start a converstation about light blub jokes
2 to get the conversation back into the original subject
1 to make another lightblub joke.
2 to flame him for not shutting up
1 to point out that there is already a lightblub changing program.
1 to ask where the thread is.
0 to reply
5 to flame that making a light blub changing program in DBPro is impossible.
3 to flame that of cause it's possible
1 to lock the lightblub changing thread for too much flaming.

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xtom
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Posted: 27th Jun 2006 19:24
This is a game I wanted to make myself a while ago. I got a very basic begining for it too but nothing worth holding onto really. I'd be interested in helping out if you want.

Kenjar
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Posted: 27th Jun 2006 20:11
Anyone is welcome, what other projects have you been envolved in?

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Mike Johnson
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Posted: 27th Jun 2006 20:19
I have been getting into modelling at weekends and evenings. Still got a long way to go but been making some fairly decent models. If you like I can attempt to make some models for you. Will give me something to aim and hopefully you end up with some decent models to use
Kenjar
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Posted: 27th Jun 2006 20:44
it's a good project to start with the models are basic and low poly.

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xtom
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Posted: 27th Jun 2006 21:39
Quote: "Anyone is welcome, what other projects have you been envolved in?
"


Mainly just the games on my site.

Kenjar
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Posted: 27th Jun 2006 22:37
Very cool, I love that remake of bubble bobble.

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Philip
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Posted: 28th Jun 2006 01:52
@Kenjar

I entirely agree with your thoughts in your post above about the way ahead. I sent you a short email last night - hope you got it.

The only point I slightly disagree about is the idea of working entirely in this thread and not by email. I think that might be slower than email. But I am happy to defer to you on this one so lets go with the thread idea.

@Xtom

As far as I am concerned, you are in.

@MikeJ

MIKE! How are you doing sir? Long time no speak. I'd be delighted if you want to contribute models of the carrier, manta and walrus.

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Mike Johnson
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Posted: 28th Jun 2006 10:28
I'm doing well thanks Philip I can certainly have a go at making some models for you. I have mainly been working on architectural models but also had a go at other things like this bike:



I'm fairly confident I can make something for you. If you let me know exactly what you are looking for I can make a start this weekend.

I have a large texture library I can use but restrictions mean they can only be used for renders unless they are protected in some way. If the Enhancements pack was used and data is stored in File Blocks then that is one way of solving it. Alternatively someone can always write a simple encryption program to protect the textures ( maybe I can do this ) If not then I can always look around for free textures or take a few photos of surfaces and use those.
Kenjar
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Posted: 28th Jun 2006 11:38 Edited at: 28th Jun 2006 11:43
I have texture maker, I can knock up some textures for you.

Philip, I've not seen an e-mail from you, which account did you send it too?

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Jess T
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Posted: 28th Jun 2006 15:06 Edited at: 28th Jun 2006 15:10
Hey, I like the idea of a re-make... Even though I've never played the game myself, it certainly sounds like my kind of game (Free Roaming)

So, here's my little contribution:

A while back, I was really researching game design, and specifically Design Documents so I could have more finished projects rather than half-started code.

So, here are a bunch of GameDev & Gamasutra articles that I found to be the best of the best:

Design Doc Creation

I don't have a clue what any of the original links are, but they're all freely available, so I hope that I'm not doing anything wrong by uploading them here

Good luck!

Jess.

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Kenjar
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Posted: 28th Jun 2006 15:38 Edited at: 28th Jun 2006 15:40
Cool, should give us a good reference guide in reguard to creating such documentation in the first place. I've already started the analysis document, here's a quick preview of what I'm doing, please look at it, and give some feedback if you think the style needs changing. I'm considering doing the following:

1) editing the images with numbers so people can quickly see which bit of the screen I am talking about, and so people can flip through to specific sections.

2) Catagorizing the pages into a content list and index with page numbers

3) Releasing as ODT and DOC format as well as PDF

4) Analysising combat, construction, weapons, as well as screens and icon functions.

5) A Summary.

Download PDF
http://forum.thegamecreators.com/xt/xt_apollo_download.php?i=923613

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Jess T
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Posted: 28th Jun 2006 15:46 Edited at: 28th Jun 2006 15:51
That's good for the User Inferface section of the Design Doc, but it's not complete, and shouldn't be on it's own (needs to be with the rest of the design doco so that the UI has context within the game-play).

Here's a design doco I wrote up last year, that I think is quite good... Give it a browse, and you should see what I mean:

Download Pin Sim Design Doc

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Jess T
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Posted: 28th Jun 2006 15:50 Edited at: 28th Jun 2006 15:50
I trust you also have a high-concept?

Not that you particularily need one as it's a re-make of an already existing game, but it's still good to show people who may be interested in the project...

Here's the one I did for Pin Sim:

Download Pin Sim High Concept Document

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Kenjar
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Posted: 28th Jun 2006 15:55
Very impressive, but at the same time it's overkill. I think we can reduce on that format, making it more user freindly. I'd rather split up the documentation. The first part, I'm writing, which is analysising what's in an existing game. The next document will set down some ground rules for programmers so we all know what we are doing and how to label and section data. Then it's basically dividing up the project into manageable peices with the aid of flow charts or pseduo code, and presenting it in a more friendly way.

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Jess T
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Posted: 28th Jun 2006 17:58
Be careful not to over-simplify!

Its when you do that that Feature Creep comes in, and pretty much takes over.

Detail is the saviour of a good project.

It may be all apples and roses now, but when someone runs out of something to do (be it waiting on someone else to finish a module, or simply because they've done their assigned work), then they begin thinking "Hmm, maybe I could just whip this up" which turns into, a week later "Hang on, I can't do the menu system yet, I haven't finished the [fancy, useless feature]"...

But again, since it is a re-make of an existing game, and it seems that you are doing a clone for your first revision, then I guess you would be alright.

Just keep it in the back of your mind, Feature Creep is the killer for all good projects.

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Kenjar
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Posted: 28th Jun 2006 19:14
Thanks, I will bare that it mind, it is very easy to get distracted I know.

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xtom
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Posted: 29th Jun 2006 16:22
Good work on the docs. I'll download the game and refresh myself with it as soon as possible. As soon as you have it broken down into managable pieces I'll be happy to tackle a part.

If you guys want I can set up a development forum for the game to make it easier to communicate and manage. We could have a media section for the models in the game or sounds etc. a doc/design section, coding section etc.

Kenjar
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Posted: 29th Jun 2006 17:14 Edited at: 29th Jun 2006 17:15
If you like I can setup tempory forums on the openmmo website or the openSF website if this projects gets serious, and past the document stage then I'll happily fund it's own website. Before I do that though I think Philip should agree as well.

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Jess T
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Posted: 29th Jun 2006 17:23
If it's going to be open-source, I'd suggest making a SourceForge CVS page for it.

I've recently set one up, and I can see all the benefits of it already! 'tis quite a nifty place to host your code

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Philip
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Posted: 30th Jun 2006 01:15 Edited at: 30th Jun 2006 01:17
@Kenjar, I agree. I think it would be useful to have a central space to store media and source code etc. We need to be fairly disciplined about code amendments.

@Mike, please can you model the carrier, manta and walrus around the models used in the original game. For the time being I think everyone wants to stick fairly close to the original. So in fact the models do not have to be very high poly (although the nicer you want to make them, obviously the better for all of us!)

@All, I have a holiday day tomorrow and on Monday so that gives me a long weekend to myself. I've got Kenjar's email and will start analysing the game as well as reading all the design documents posted.

Cheer if you like bears! Cheer if you like jam sandwiches!
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Kenjar
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Posted: 30th Jun 2006 01:28 Edited at: 30th Jun 2006 01:31
The temperature is shooting up where I live, projecting 30 degrees by next tuesday, and 28 on average. I suspect I'll be relaxing rather then working, be assured though I'll get back to work when it cools down. I really don't do well in the heat :-( oh the other hand it was just five degrees in my flat over winter, and with nothing more then a blanket, I barely even noticed it.

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Nicholas Thompson
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Posted: 30th Jun 2006 02:10
Kenjar - you in the UK? Thats roughly what London's doing over the next 5 days... Max 31C according to BBC (Although these are the same people who promised no hurricane and then the next day people were surprised to see horizontal tree's)

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Kenjar
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Posted: 30th Jun 2006 02:29 Edited at: 30th Jun 2006 02:30
Yeah I live in the UK, and I'm glad I live around swansea in wales, over the last few weeks it's been between 18 - 22 degrees, warm enough to walk around in the nuddy with a lovely ice cream, horrifiying the neighbours, but not so hot to be uncomfitable. I hate it when it goes above 25, very uncomfitable. I'd hate to live around London. I remember lugging whole PC systems around london in 2001, it was about 30 degrees then, if anyone wanted a drink they could have just rung out my shirt,

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Mike Johnson
TGC Developer
22
Years of Service
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Joined: 13th Sep 2002
Location: United Kingdom
Posted: 30th Jun 2006 10:36
I have got a PC version of the game now and tried it out last night but I'm not entirely sure how to use it. If anyone can take any screenshots showing the kind of things we need that will help or some instructions on how to play the game.

Going to start on the carrier tonight. From what I have seen the manta looks like a small fighter jet. Is this right? How about the walrus? Is that another ship but a much smaller one than the carrier?
Dazzag
22
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Joined: 26th Aug 2002
Location: Cyprus
Posted: 30th Jun 2006 10:44
Quote: "above 25, very uncomfitable"
BBC said this morning that it may get to 35 next week....

Cheers

I am 99% probably lying in bed right now... so don't blame me for crappy typing
Kenjar
19
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Joined: 17th Jun 2005
Location: TGC
Posted: 30th Jun 2006 11:19 Edited at: 30th Jun 2006 11:20
Here's a quick list of the ship, aircraft and amphibous tank.



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Philip
21
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Joined: 15th Jun 2003
Location: United Kingdom
Posted: 30th Jun 2006 14:18
In addition to the useful screenies posted by Kenjar above, Mike, please note that the laser turret which appears on the top of the carrier should be a separate object. That rotates around its own axes.

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