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Geek Culture / Remake project: Carrier Command

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Kenjar
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Posted: 30th Jun 2006 17:35 Edited at: 30th Jun 2006 17:59
Also note that he walrus has catapila tracks under the water.

I've been going over the main ships defensive systems, and offensive systems.

Defensive:

Main laser turret can shoot down missles and craft.
Sacrifical drones can be launched to intercept low flying missles.
Drones can be set into several defensives patterns.
Flares to draw enemy missles.

Offensive:

Main laser can hit buildings close to the island edge, it does have a range limit.
Surface to Surface missle (shoot recon drone into air, then fire missle by clicking on the area of ground you want to hit.)
Manta flying craft
Walrus Amphibous tanks
fly by wire missles (controls like flying craft and rammed into structures) (bit like cruise missles)

Observation:

Drones can be launched into the air like flares and provide real time camera images of the ground below.

I honestly can't think of another game, even today that offers such a range of options. Can anyone else?

OSX Using Happy Dude
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Posted: 30th Jun 2006 17:45
Indeed not.

I would advise against using 3rd party plug-ins, unless they are tested well beforehand.

If you can pull it off, it will a) show what team work can do and b) show what DBPro can do (and stave off those people who keep asking 'show us a decent game'). And it'll really annoy Blitz users

Come to the last Unofficial DBPro Convention (http://convention.logicstudios.net/)
Dont do anything I wouldn't do. But if you do, take pictures.
Mike Johnson
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Posted: 30th Jun 2006 17:55
Spent a few minutes making this. Is it the kind of thing you are looking for:



Do you want things to be kept very basic like this or for me to try and make detailed models?
Kenjar
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Posted: 30th Jun 2006 18:16 Edited at: 30th Jun 2006 18:16
I think basic models for now, just to keep things consistant, we can always change models later on.



But I don't have the last word, if anyone disagrees please say so!

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Philip
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Posted: 30th Jun 2006 18:34
I agree with you Kenjar. I think lets keep the models simple to begin with.

Mike, the carrier has a lift in the centre. The mantas (the fighters) come up from in there. Please can you cut a square chunk out of the middle of the model to represent that. There is also a big docking bay at the rear of the carrier where the walruses come from. The door to the docking bay slides up and down.

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Kenjar
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Posted: 30th Jun 2006 18:35 Edited at: 1st Jul 2006 19:05
Sorry, but if you look at the screenshots the command bridge and cannon are in the center of the ship, the lift is half way between the bridge and the end of the ramp.

It's doesn't get shown in those screen shots, but behind the bridge there are surface to surface missle tubes, recon drone launchers, decoy flare lauchers, and fly by wire cruise missle launchers.

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Philip
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Posted: 30th Jun 2006 18:36
I'm attaching the beginnings of a basic design document for Kenjar and Xtom's comments. Guys, please amend and re-circulate as you think fit - its definitely important that we all agree on coding style at the outset.

Guys, I think we need to begin collecting the media (particularly the screen icons) in one place. I'm going to start chopping them out of the game using screenshots and Paint Shop Pro.

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Philip
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Posted: 30th Jun 2006 18:47
I've been mucking about with the game and I think its basic structure is something along the following lines:

setup_system()
load_media()
setup_gameworld()

Repeat

poll_user_interface()
update_cameras()
update_gameworld()
update_gameobjects()
update_enemy()
sync

Until game_over = 1

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Mike Johnson
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Posted: 30th Jun 2006 18:51
Okay will get some changes done. Thanks for the new screenshots and descriptions. I'm starting to get a better idea of what is needed now.

If you prefer we can use www.thereptilecorporation.com/forum/ for posting info about everything.
Kenjar
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Posted: 30th Jun 2006 18:52 Edited at: 30th Jun 2006 18:59
I read the design document, and I think the key features for discussion is:

A) Should we use any plugin's at all?
B) Should we use advanced terrian, or premade models?

I personally think that pre-made island models would be the best route, 64 islands isn't too much of a problem and each has it's own name so they are not being regenerated each time. Also with advanced programs such as 3D World Studio (Which I do own) can produce some much nicer results, with shadow maps, and multitexturing automatically loaded. It also puts island design firmly into the relam of the 3D Artist rather then the programmer. In my experiance, land design is better handled by artists then programmers.

Quote: "Okay will get some changes done. Thanks for the new screenshots and descriptions. I'm starting to get a better idea of what is needed now.

If you prefer we can use www.thereptilecorporation.com/forum/ for posting info about everything."


Now that there is some real activity going on I'll get around to setting up a proper website for the project, and as usual I'll setup a proper domain name onces the coding starts and the project looks like it's going somewhere. However I think we should keep this thread updated as well.

I just registered [href]www.stlegacy.com[/href] and will be using the same content management system for the Carrier command remake project.

I am seriousally giving thought to creating a game remake site, rather then a carrier command only site, so anyone who is making a remake of a classic game can use the website as well, free of charge.

Philip
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Posted: 30th Jun 2006 18:59
Wow! Well if you are going to volunteer to pre-model each of the 64 islands, I'll certainly take you up on that offer. Its very generous as it'll be a significant time commitment. I had assumed we'd cheat and procedurally create them - but I'm happy with the alternative pre-modelled option.

The only thing we then need to think about is media management. Do we pre-load all the models at the outset and then EXCLUDE ON/OFF them depending on the distance from the carrier, or do we load them and delete them from the memory on a dynamic basis?

As regards plugins, I'd recommend that at the minimum we use d3dfunc and the EZrotate plugin. The latter will come in very handy for the object movement code, which I'm volunteering to write.

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Kenjar
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Posted: 30th Jun 2006 19:12 Edited at: 30th Jun 2006 19:14
I'd just set the game up as zones, load the zone you are in, and the eight zones around (low polygon versions) it to give the impression of distance, add a little fog perhaps. Then via positional data (because the world isn't endless just very large) I'd keep track of the ship location, and load a high polygon version up as your cross into it's waters, and remove the old one once you are more then a 10th of the way into the new scene, replacing it with the low polygon alternative.

And yes, I've more than happy to produce Islands, it's not that much work for the first version because there's no real detail in terms of trees, vegitation and stuff. I won't make it too detailed to keep inline with the carrier, craft and building models. I'll also put up the original files and textures, so we can edit the islands for version 2 if we ever get that far.

As for the ezrotate, will you be using the free or commerical plugin. I need to knwo because I don't own it, though I am quite happy to buy it if need be, if you are writing the code I'm not going to argue.

Mike Johnson
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Posted: 30th Jun 2006 19:55
Another attempt:



Not sure if you saw earlier but I have set this up http://www.thereptilecorporation.com/forum Might be easier for us all if we can post everything on a dedicated forum.
Kenjar
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Posted: 30th Jun 2006 20:25
Much better, but the bridge needs to be centralised to the superstructure, behind the bridge are missle tubes and things. The bow at the water line is also angled slightly at about 15 - 20 degrees, though it does look in the game. Just change those things, and add a door at the back that opens and closes to let the tanks out and it will be perfect.

Mike Johnson
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Posted: 1st Jul 2006 12:09
Another attempt this morning with some changes:

Kenjar
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Posted: 1st Jul 2006 14:13 Edited at: 1st Jul 2006 14:21
definately closer to the original, the only thing we need is the laser cannon removed, and setup as a seperate model. But the hull is almost perfect except for the vertex's on the front of the ship at the water line, it needs to be drawn back so there is a 10 - 20 degree angle, and the bridge under the cannon, needs to be lower, the rear of it needs to be flat, and adjusted so it's a wedge shape. Do that and it will be perfect and just like the original design.

On another subject, I've produced a quick island, it's not the original square design, so let me know if this is a problem. The model was very quickly done, and is for scaling purpouses more than anything. I've included the mesh and textures here:

http://forum.thegamecreators.com/xt/xt_apollo_download.php?i=927040

and it looks like this:



It occures to be that we really need a gradual sloap increase rather then a sheer drop, which is what I did here, because the carrier can run aground in the game causing damage. But as I say, it's more for scaling at the moment, and I'll spend the week designing diferent islands, and submit them so everyone can suggest improvements, changes, or if we just want to use the square island design setout in the original.

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Philip
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Posted: 1st Jul 2006 16:29
I like the new carrier (and prefer it to the first design) and I agree with all of Kenjar's comments on it. Good work Mike!

Kenjar, I agree with the zone idea. Another benefit to it is that the dimensions of the array that will hold each object's position data will be much smaller - so we will save memory and there will be less floating point movement issues.

In terms of the islands, I suggest that perhaps instead of modelling 64, you only model 16. We can then use each of the 16 4x (thus reducing the workload on you). I like the idea of a roughly square shaped island because it makes it much easier to calculate the maximum likely radius of the island and hence AI carrier navigation around islands can use those radiuses to sail around islands rather than trying to sail through them and then running aground.

I think there should be gently sloping beaches and thereafter the land under the sea should probably get deeper very quickly - as is the case in genuine volcanic islands.

I use the commercial version of EZrotate but for this project, I could revert back to the freeware version if you'd like.

@Xtom

Do you want to put together a couple of skyboxes and prototype a nice wave/water effect? That will be the basis of the game world and that would be helpful.

@Me (I'm talking to myself??)

I'm conscious that datastructures are the key to any game so what I'm going to begin doing is designing some types. I will then post them for everyone's comments/amendments.

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Nicholas Thompson
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Posted: 1st Jul 2006 16:52
I'm pleased this is coming along! I'd love to contribute but have very little time. I absolutely adored the origional of this. Considering the Amiga have 0.5Mb RAM and 8Mhz CPU - it was a fantastic game!

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Philip
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Posted: 1st Jul 2006 17:33
@Nick

Every little contribution, no matter how small, helps. How about modelling some simple trees that we can populate our islands with? Even a green cone with a brown cylinder below it would be great.

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Nicholas Thompson
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Posted: 1st Jul 2006 17:48 Edited at: 1st Jul 2006 17:49
I'll see if I can make time...

Just found this link.. WOAH...
http://www.carriercommand.com/

An OpenGL remake too!

EDIT:
Found some screenshots that might be usefull..
http://hol.abime.net/2936/screenshot
http://www.mobygames.com/game/carrier-command/screenshots

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Philip
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Posted: 1st Jul 2006 18:36
Yeah. I've been watching that remake project myself but I dont think it is going anywhere. No work has been done on it for many months.

A more active remake project is: http://homepage.ntlworld.com/martingbell/projects/

Moving swiftly on, Kenjar and xtom, I am attaching some first drafts of possible data structures. I invite your comments/amendments.

Cheer if you like bears! Cheer if you like jam sandwiches!
"I highly recommend Philip's Vector Tutorials" (RiiDii)
Carrier Command remake project

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Kenjar
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Posted: 1st Jul 2006 19:25 Edited at: 1st Jul 2006 20:07
The variables look good to me. It will be easy for anyone to add something to them if they need too.

Yes that commerical remake looks pretty dead to me, the OpenGL remake looks more promising, but in this case I really do think DarkBASIC Pro has the edge over it in terms of potential developement time. I also hope ours will be more faithful to the original, there's looks like they have taken a few liberties with it.

Back onto the island modelling subject, this is a different version for you guys, again model file is attached, and anyone working on this project has full permission to do what they will with it. I've also rendered some perspective shots to give us an idea of the scale.

The light mapping is over exposed, I'll adjust that later on. but you can see the slope up the beach now.



Please forgive the licence documentation I include that on all my work these days after a group of people took a bunch of my work and refused to give credit for it.

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Kenjar
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Posted: 1st Jul 2006 19:49 Edited at: 1st Jul 2006 20:07
Does everyone like the idea of using an SVN system? I set one up for OpenSF but that project has pretty much died, and seeing as I'm still footing the bill for it, it makes more sense to use it on this project. There's 1 gig of space of it, so there's plenty of room.

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Philip
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Posted: 1st Jul 2006 20:27
The basic design of the new island looks good to me. I've got a slight reservation about the scale - having driven around a few islands with a walrus using the original game, I've been reminded that the islands themselves were pretty large.

Bit distracted at the moment by England v. Portugal.

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Carrier Command remake project
Philip
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Posted: 1st Jul 2006 23:35 Edited at: 2nd Jul 2006 00:57
In terms of the names of the islands, do you want to stick with the original names? If so, the data statements will look like this:



I've replaced the original names that relate to individuals with references to the names of the contributors to this project.

Obviously each of the names will have to be enclosed with "". I'll deal with this.

I've also been looking more closely at the scale of the game.

As regards 8 x 8 map, it transpires that the very middle of this map is 0, 0. Each grid square is worth 1000 by 1000. This means the map goes from about -4000, -4000 to 4000, 4000. I'm assuming that each unit is a km because the islands are all described as being in the region of 8 sq km.

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Carrier Command remake project
Mike Johnson
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Posted: 2nd Jul 2006 16:17
Quick test of a manta model attached.

Still experimenting with things and also getting into texturing the models. Will show you more soon.

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Nicholas Thompson
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Posted: 2nd Jul 2006 17:11 Edited at: 2nd Jul 2006 17:14
If its any use and/or appropriate - I have TreeMagik G3 which makes royalty free trees. Are they too detailed for this project?

EDIT: Something like this?



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Kenjar
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Posted: 2nd Jul 2006 17:42 Edited at: 2nd Jul 2006 17:43
I think a pine tree is okay. But anything more detailed is definately for version 2, not the inital project, but a single pine tree won't make any difference to the complexity of the source code.

Make sure you add a lisence document stating that the tree must not be used outside this project, but anyone who doesn't already own treemagik. I assume the licence is the same as plant magic, which I own, and have studied the licence for.

Philip
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Posted: 4th Jul 2006 01:13
@Kenjar

As we discussed, I have begun work sketching out the basic framework of the game logic as well as starting to look at scale.

I attach a *.dbpro file plus a number of *.dba files. When you compile them, the big green square is supposed to be an island and the little red rectangle is supposed to be a carrier. Do you think the relative sizes of them are about right?

There is also a very primitive beginning of some map code if you hit "M" (although the island placings will have to be tweaked to more closely match the original game). "G" returns you to the former view.

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Kenjar
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Posted: 4th Jul 2006 16:57 Edited at: 4th Jul 2006 16:59
I've produced a quick models of the walrus, I think it's accurate to the original. I've included the milkshape 3D file as well as a direct x export of the model. When I am back on my desktop (the computer room is too hot to bare at the moment, (33 degrees) I'll check out your scale Philip. My laptop is only a PIII 600, with 196Mb of ram, and an 8Mg graphics card, it's not worth compiling or running DarkBASIC Professional programs on it.



http://forum.thegamecreators.com/xt/xt_apollo_download.php?i=921516

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Kenjar
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Posted: 6th Jul 2006 18:42 Edited at: 6th Jul 2006 19:28
Does this mean that everyone has lost interest already? Or are we all off, being busy in our own little corners?

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Kenjar
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Posted: 6th Jul 2006 19:25 Edited at: 6th Jul 2006 19:28
I've included both the Walrus and Manta models for everyone. I've also included a model viewer, to use it just extract the files to a folder, then drag the model object onto the model viewer program icon and it will load automatically, hold the left hand mouse button down to rotate models. This will work for any DarkBASIC Pro compatible models.



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Jess T
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Posted: 7th Jul 2006 11:08
I'm interested... I check the thread each time a new post is made

I can't help, though... Too busy writing games for the DS

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Nicholas Thompson
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Posted: 7th Jul 2006 11:14
Same here - I barely have time to have dinner and recover from a day's work by the time I'm home. I'd love to contribute, but lack of time holds me back. Its a shame as this game cost me quite a sizeable chunk of my childhood! Very fond memories.

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Kenjar
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Posted: 7th Jul 2006 13:12
Even if you just make comments that helps weather or not you think the project is going in the right direction, weather or not you like to proposals or screenshots made etc. It really doesn't help to know that the project isn't being ignored even if few others can actively help out. There's little point in making a game no one will play after all!

Mike Johnson
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Posted: 7th Jul 2006 13:12
Can't do much until weekends. This was the last thing I was experimenting with:



Do you still want me to be doing this?
Nicholas Thompson
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Posted: 7th Jul 2006 13:57
@Mike: I like that - although its possibly a little "too" detailed for a direct remake...

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Kenjar
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Posted: 7th Jul 2006 14:04
Quote: "Can't do much until weekends. This was the last thing I was experimenting with:

Do you still want me to be doing this?"


Yep, carry on, I'm not going to redo work that already exists. I look forward to seeing your redone version.

Kenjar
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Posted: 7th Jul 2006 14:19 Edited at: 7th Jul 2006 14:19
Your image changed Mike, so my question is does that fighter appear in the original game at all? I don't remember seeing it, but I've not seen the terrorist carrier yet.

Mike Johnson
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Posted: 7th Jul 2006 14:29
Are you making a direct remake or wanting to remake the game and add to it? If you are using things like the terrain you showed then it seems a little odd to me to recreate the manta models etc in exactly the same way as the original. It is up to you of course but I thought that the ship I showed could be a representation of a manta.
Kenjar
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Posted: 7th Jul 2006 14:54 Edited at: 7th Jul 2006 15:01
I think we all love the game for a reason, so a direct remake is best, and I agree with you about the islands. I'm already reworking a version that will be much closer to the square original (no shadow mapping at all, and vivid colours) and I've rerendered some textures to give a feel that is much, much closer to the original. But these are experiemental, and I really do want peoples feedback on them.

Also, if anyone has spare time, and the incliation too, we need someone to either cut up or recreate the original icons, and stick them into a document file with a discription of their function. If you have time to recreate the interface that would be even better, please assume for now that we will be working at a resolution of 1024x786

Nicholas Thompson
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Posted: 7th Jul 2006 16:16
Quote: "I've rerendered some textures to give a feel that is much"


I suggest we use no textures - just objects with coloured vertices (as the origional did). I dont recall the origional using textures.

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Van B
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Posted: 7th Jul 2006 16:23 Edited at: 7th Jul 2006 16:24
With remakes, personally I don't see the point unless your planning on improving elements, not just the frame rate or the resolution, but actually concentrating on graphics or effects.

I can go and play Carrier Command on an ST emulator, and it'd be perfect - really a remake has to be remade, not regurgitated .

I'm not saying you should go all texture mad with this stuff, because I'd happily spend hours in a solid 3D environment, heck that's what we all did with the original - but what I'm saying is, perhaps using DBPro's new shadows, along with some cartoon shading - you'd have this 'Battle of the Planets' look, it'd be more stylised than simple, and would look cool - that's a given.

Incidently, I mean the shader cartoon effect, not the supplied one with DBPro - there's a really cool one in that shader pack, along with the uniform shadows you'd have a solid looking engine real quick.

Aegrescit medendo
Kenjar
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Posted: 7th Jul 2006 17:22 Edited at: 7th Jul 2006 19:26
Keeping to the original as much as humanly possible doesn't mean that "improvements" can't be made later down the line. We are producing models, rather than hard coding them for that very reason. The point at this stage is to accurately recreate the game, and all the eliments within that game. Once that is done, improvements can be made, and we have a modable engine. Keeping to the original is as much a tribute to the orginal programmers, as it is a tool to keep everyone focused on a definate end goal and we have a real life template to work from. But as I said before, the game will be modable afterwards, so perhaps we can develope a Carrier Command 1.1 or v2 game, until then, this is the easiest way of managing the final goals, and avoiding arguements about what consititutes an improvement in the first place.

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Philip
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Posted: 8th Jul 2006 14:35
As regards the models, I tend to think that we should add some textures. Although I'd like us to stick closely to the original game, I don't think we should be stuck on block colours - we can add textures etc. and make the game look nice.

Turning to the Kenjar's models of the Manta and Walrus versus Mike's models, I think there is lots of space for both. Mike's Manta model could either be the enemy carrier's Mantas or it could be the fighters launched by Defence Islands.

Kenjar, I think you are going to comment on scale?

I've just begun a busy cycle at work and I'll have to go into work tomorrow (Sunday). Therefore, I'm going to be doing my coding late in the evenings for the next week or so.

In terms of my next job, while I await feedback on scale, I am going to create a few average quality skyboxes and a nice water effect. I might as well get a basic game environment up and running.

It'd be nice if someone can start collecting together the icons too.

Oh, and I've updated the game design document to deal with comments and the fact that we are now on DBPro v6.2. Please see attached.

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Kenjar
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Posted: 8th Jul 2006 19:19 Edited at: 8th Jul 2006 19:25
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Kenjar
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Posted: 8th Jul 2006 19:23


This is the later attempt, I've gone with bright, vivid colours, the model does not have water, I've just added that to the screenshot for illistration purposes. The model file is attached, complete with textures.

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Cash Curtis II
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Posted: 8th Jul 2006 19:34
I've been following this thread for a bit. I think a remake of this game is a fantastic idea.

However, I don't see the value in a direct remake. It will only appeal to hard core original game lovers, not really anyone else. When it's so easy to create a modern, stylized version that captures the essence of the original, why not?

A remake can be true without being direct. If someone wants to play the original, then they can just play the original. It's like everyone trying to make direct remakes of modern games - there's no point.


Come see the WIP!
Philip
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Posted: 8th Jul 2006 19:35
Looks good, Kenjar.

Cheer if you like bears! Cheer if you like jam sandwiches!
"I highly recommend Philip's Vector Tutorials" (RiiDii)
Carrier Command remake project
Kenjar
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Posted: 8th Jul 2006 19:52
Quote: "However, I don't see the value in a direct remake. It will only appeal to hard core original game lovers, not really anyone else. When it's so easy to create a modern, stylized version that captures the essence of the original, why not?

A remake can be true without being direct. If someone wants to play the original, then they can just play the original. It's like everyone trying to make direct remakes of modern games - there's no point."


The point of a direct remake is to remove arguements from the game creation stages. By sticking with the original ingame models, and basic graphics, plus idential interfaces and movement, and combat systems/ usage, we have a prepreapred game design. I say, lets get the direct remake produced first, and we can tinker around with it later on. Obiosually we aren't restricted to a 16 colour enviroment, and the only reason I added any kind of texture to the land is because it allows the user to see that they are actually moving, originally this was done with white spots on the landscape, and of cause a slightly transparent water model allows the user to see how close they are to land without relying completely on a gage which you had to do on the first one. But it is way too easy to get side tracked with improvements and neglect actually producing the game. We have a definate model here for it, I suggest we use it, and improve upon it later on. Too many projects fail because there is no definate plan, and because people get too engrossed into little aspects.

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