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Geek Culture / A new DBP Book not available on TGC?

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Matt Rock
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Posted: 6th Jul 2006 20:48
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While taking the CMP survey, I couldn't remember who had published the Beginner's Guide to DarkBASIC, and since a friend of mine is borrowing it to decide if he should buy DBP or not I needed to look up the publisher. So off to Amazon I go, and I put in "DarkBASIC" in the search bar. What should pop up? DarkBASIC Pro Game Programming, Second Edition by Jonathan S. Harbour, one of the guys who wrote the Beginner's Guide. Second Edition? What happened to the FIRST edition? How long has this book been out, and why isn't TGC making any money from it? Is it a bad book, so bad that Rich and Lee don't want to corrupt us? Or did Jon Harbour release this without giving a dang about us, the TGC minions, to profit without having to share with TGC? I'm really angry at this but I don't know why lol.


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Chris Franklin
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Posted: 6th Jul 2006 20:57 Edited at: 6th Jul 2006 20:58
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Man i want that now when tgc puts it on sale so neat cover

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Matt Rock
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Posted: 6th Jul 2006 21:36
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That's my point though, I don't know if TGC is going to sell it


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Richard Davey
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Posted: 6th Jul 2006 21:37
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We know about this book and talk with Jonathan on a regular basis. The reason we don't sell it is because it isn't published yet. When it is, we'll offer it.

We still sell the original, so I'm sure other sites will too.

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Matt Rock
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Posted: 7th Jul 2006 03:27
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ohh... okay. I didn't realize when I saw it that it wasn't released yet lol. I e-mailed Jonathan about a year ago and we tossed a few e-mails back and forth, but he never responded to the last one I sent him At any rate, it's good to know he and his publisher aren't trying to release a DB book without letting you know... it was making me angry hehe


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UnderLord
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Posted: 7th Jul 2006 05:29
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What will this new book cover? will it cover more then the old one?

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Hobgoblin Lord
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Posted: 7th Jul 2006 06:41
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Quote: "At any rate, it's good to know he and his publisher aren't trying to release a DB book without letting you know... it was making me angry hehe"


Understood this is a smaller community, but do you get angry when someone writes a how/idiots book whatever for visual basic, excel, photoshop etc without the permission or knowledge of the original publisher?

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Matt Rock
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Posted: 7th Jul 2006 08:59
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No, I couldn't care less about those. But I love this community and TGC's products to no end and I'd hate to see them get ripped off, or worse yet, to not even let them know that the book was written or being released, that would be an insult. And if the book wasn't available on TGC I wouldn't even buy it. I mean seriously, how would you feel if you worked your butt off to make a nifty product and get it out to hundreds of thousands of people, an awesome game that's praised by serious gamers for it's difficulty, just so Prima could come out and make a walkthrough for it, capitalizing on said difficulty (which you created) without you seeing a cent from it. The scenarios are nothing alike, but still... do you get what I'm getting at?


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Wandering Swordsman
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Posted: 7th Jul 2006 09:16
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@Matt Rock:
I see what your saying and I agree, good thing that isn't the case this time.

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Hobgoblin Lord
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Posted: 7th Jul 2006 09:51
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Quote: "No, I couldn't care less about those. But I love this community and TGC's products to no end and I'd hate to see them get ripped off,"


I certainly understand, as I stated this is a smaller community and we have a feeling of connection because we can talk directly with the devlopers/owners and they are great people. To say they are not alike though I think is wrong, are you saying if DB sold as many copies as photoshop or VB then it would be fine for people to pop out books, video proffesor disks, or whatever? We can't have it both ways. How much do you think a book for VB would be if the only choice you had was to buy it from microsoft?

Quote: "just so Prima could come out and make a walkthrough for it"


Sadly that is the nature of the beast, you pour your heart into a project and some group comes along finds all your cheat codes somehow and breezes people through the game. I have never understood someone buying a $50 game and the $15 cheat book so they can finish it quickly, why buy the darn game if you don't want to actually play it. That being said however, if the consumer is willing to pay for it then that is the nature of free enterprise. My option is to release the book myself first or sell the info to a website.

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Wandering Swordsman
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Posted: 7th Jul 2006 10:11
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Hobgoblin Lord:
Quote: "I have never understood someone buying a $50 game and the $15 cheat book so they can finish it quickly, why buy the darn game if you don't want to actually play it. "

That has always baffled me as well.

"Cool! They say this is the greatest game ever! I must get the detailed walkthrough so that nothing is a surprise!"

I mean, if you've played through the game a few times and your wondering about the specifics of a secret or unlockable that your trying for then that makes sense. But buying the guide before you play the game? I've encountered to many people who say "Yeah! I beat it, it was easy I got 100% everything. I used my strategy guide."

Baffling...

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Hobgoblin Lord
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Posted: 7th Jul 2006 10:25
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Post off topic:

Quote: ""Cool! They say this is the greatest game ever! I must get the detailed walkthrough so that nothing is a surprise!" "


and the suprises are the best part, Bard's Tale I took me about a month to finish and that included a 2 week school vacation where I played basically 20 hours a day.

and heck III took almost 3 months to complete, but I can say this I know the games and have very fond memories of them and all the things I earned along the way. I can bet someone who bought a FF game and the book, went home and beat it in a weekend, then turned it in for credit has few memories of the game other than the cut scenes. I love somwething like "You encounter a Moorman" and all you can think is "damn what the hell is a moorman, what is he gonna do to me HEEELPPP" rather then oh let me see, a moorman has x hp, x ac and is vulnerable to attack type a, danger, and suspense, over. I swear I am gonna release a game that Fubar's the walkthough people so they look like dolts when someone is following their advice.

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Matt Rock
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Posted: 7th Jul 2006 21:33
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Using cheat codes and walkthroughs for a game is like renting a movie and fast-forwarding to the end just to see it. I've banned my friends from using them, hehe. I'm releasing two games in August, and one of them won't even have cheat codes (the other is a fighting game... hard to make without them lol). But if these games are, by some magical hand of god, selling well, I'm hoping that no one makes a walkthrough for them.


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Jeku
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Posted: 8th Jul 2006 03:45
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Two things:

TGC doesn't have any right to stop or protest a manual being made on one of their products, and they shouldn't. That's the nature of this business.

There is nothing wrong with using cheat codes. Tell me, Matt Rock, why you play games? Is it for the challenge? For the fun? A bit of both? What is the problem if somebody turns on God mode in Doom, blasts his way through the game, and has fun? Some people don't have the natural ability to complete a game *without* cheating.

Speaking for myself, I don't find it fun one bit to die and be brought back to the beginning of a level. Especially when I have to replay 20 minutes before getting to the part where I died. To me, that's not fun, and I buy games to have fun. Do you see where I'm going with this?


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Hobgoblin Lord
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Posted: 8th Jul 2006 04:21
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Quote: "Tell me, Matt Rock, why you play games?"


I find it funny that Matt is always the guy that gets singled out.

Personally I would prefer games to have a larger range of difficulty levels over God Mode. True not everone has the dexterity to play a game but the game makers need to make games more accesible. Walkthroughs though are a whole different ball of wax, you should be willing to take the time to solve a game for yourself.

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Jeku
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Posted: 9th Jul 2006 06:10
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Quote: "Walkthroughs though are a whole different ball of wax, you should be willing to take the time to solve a game for yourself."


Yes, that is preferrable. But, if someone gets more enjoyment from going through a game with a walkthru, then all the power to him.


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Tinkergirl
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Posted: 9th Jul 2006 13:26
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Jeku has a very good point.

There are some people who don't want to have the challenge - they don't want to die AT ALL. Or fail a mission, or lose a trooper, or indeed encounter any setback at all. That's not fun for them. (It may or may not be a character fault, but who are we to say?)

Saying strategy guides aren't allowed, is like saying that people aren't allowed to listen to audiobooks - why read a book if you're not going to turn the pages yourself? Or saying that people aren't allowed to have the TV on while they do something else - how dare they watch your program while doing something else?!

Some people, don't play games for challenge - they play to see the next cool thing as fast as possible. To feel like a game-god for a while and to make the whole game world tremble beneath their characters feet. Every single interruption, every single moment that stops them or slows them down isn't wanted.

That may not be what you or I look for in a game, and like I said, it may be indicitive of certain personality traits that we may not find desirable - but if they're willing to buy your game...

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Hamish McHaggis
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Posted: 9th Jul 2006 18:03
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People may use walkthroughs for games that have a lot to them, like RPGs, but after they have completed them a first time. You often miss a lot of the game without a walkthrough, and if you're going to get another 20 hours out of it by buying a £15 book, then why not.


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Jeku
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Posted: 9th Jul 2006 21:26
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@Tinkergirl - Good parallel with the audiobook

That's the reason why I can't stand unlockables in a game. It busts me up when I buy a game (Super Monkey Ball Deluxe I'm looking at you!) and half the modes are locked. Wait a second--- the back of the game lists the different modes, and I can't play them until I reach a certain point in the main flow? I paid money for this, and I don't want the game designer dictating locked modes/cars/levels etc.


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Matt Rock
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Posted: 10th Jul 2006 10:02
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I call anyone who uses cheat codes a wannabe. Gaming is an art, when the game is good worthy of the title, and people who use cheat codes don't feel it necessary to acquire any skill. Cheats are lazy, nothing more. As I've said before, when you get a movie from the video store, do you fast forward through everything just to see the end of it? And if you do, what sort of replay value does the movie/ game have? It's like the people who play MGS3 and just run through the game blowing holes in everyone. Sure, it's possible, but wth(eck) is the point? You're not getting ANYTHING out of it that way, other than the feeling that you're dominating something by cheating the system. If you didn't EARN a win, I refuse to call you a winner... you're just the opposite in my book.

Quote: "I find it funny that Matt is always the guy that gets singled out."
9 times out of 10, even when someone agrees with me they switch sides just to disagree lol


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Jeku
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Posted: 11th Jul 2006 22:39
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Quote: "You're not getting ANYTHING out of it that way, other than the feeling that you're dominating something by cheating the system."


Typical arrogant post, Matt. Seriously you can't call all people who cheat lazy. There was a tough part in HL2 that I couldn't get by, and died about 20 times. That was not fun, so I cheated to get past. So you're calling me a loser?

Quote: "I call anyone who uses cheat codes a wannabe."


And again, not everyone has flying fingers like you. If you seriously want to ball up everyone who cheats or uses walkthroughs into one little category, then I feel bad for you.

And your movie analogy isn't the same.


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Matt Rock
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Posted: 11th Jul 2006 22:52
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I can't flex on this one, I've been an avid anti-cheat person since the NES was "hot tech." If you use a walkthrough to help you get through a level that's insanely difficult, but you work your butt off to get to that level without a walkthrough, I suppose that's okay... but you won't catch me doing it. But the people who buy the Prima book and beat the game in the first hour of owning it? That's just stupid. And the only time a cheat code is useful is when:

(A) You're an alpha or beta tester

- or -

(B) You've already beaten the game a few times and you're just experimenting.

I just don't see the value in cheat codes, ever, and walkthroughs I can't see using unless you're having an incredibly difficult time on a particular level... it's mostly the people who use walkthroughs and cheats to get through the entire game level after level, and THAT is what I meant with my movie analogy (and I think it does a pretty good job of explaining my stance on this topic). I'm rather proud to say I've never once used a walkthrough and the only time I've ever used a cheat was in Vice City AFTER beating the game TWO TIMES, the second being with a 100%. I've never played HL2, so I don't know how difficult the level you're talking about is, but I sincerely hope you're not cheating on each and every level.


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_Nemesis_
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Posted: 11th Jul 2006 23:17 Edited at: 11th Jul 2006 23:17
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Completely agree with you Jeku.. If I can't complete a game, I usually give it a rest and try again in a couple of days time. Eventually I tend to just lose my temper and cheat to get past the part.

It's either having a useless game that you can't complete, or playing the remaining 20 hours of the game. I'll tell you which is more fun...

Anyway, I'm not too sure why anyone would be against other people using cheat codes? If someone else wants to use cheats, why would you actually give a damn? If they've payed for the game, they can do whatever the hell they want with it - If you don't want to use cheats, don't!

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David R
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Posted: 12th Jul 2006 00:09 Edited at: 12th Jul 2006 00:13
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Quote: "Gaming is an art, when the game is good worthy of the title, and people who use cheat codes don't feel it necessary to acquire any skill"


This is called 'climbing on a pedestal' and is basically a very bad thing - even more so for someone who's supposed to be interesting in making games aswell as just playing them. Is this what'll you'll do when deigning a game? Make it as difficult as possible so only the 'true' gamers who are 'worthy' can complete it?

Cheat codes and walkthrough's are there for a reason - and if they weren't adding something to the game which was fun (or a quick shortcut for the developer) then they wouldn't be there in the first place...

Also, a walkthrough can be very valuable if you reach a part of the game which is a bit 'sticky' logic wise. For instance, the first time I played HL1, I got a bit stuck in the cave on the first part of Xen. After seeing a walkthrough, I knew how to continue, and instantly realised how the level worked - it just wasn't obvious from the outset. I never used the walkthrough again, but he helped me to complete an excellent game, and without it, it would of probably of been impossible or very difficult

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Jeku
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Posted: 12th Jul 2006 01:07
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Quote: "I'm rather proud to say I've never once used a walkthrough and the only time I've ever used a cheat was in Vice City AFTER beating the game TWO TIMES, the second being with a 100%."


Good job-- want a cookie?

And your stance on the "art" of playing games is completely unfounded, as you are clearly judging everyone else by how you play.

I could say you cheat by using DBP instead of coding 3D games in assembler. What's your excuse? You don't want to be a real programmer and code in assembly? You find it more fun to use a higher level language? What's the difference? Sometimes I find it fun to turn on god mode in a game and blow my way through everything, and sometimes I like to try to beat a level in Splinter Cell without harming an NPC.


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Matt Rock
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Posted: 12th Jul 2006 11:36
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Everyone is missing my point entirely, and I'd really appreciate it if the next person who read something I wrote tried at least to read it in its entirety. I'll put it in bold so maybe people won't misunderstand my stance on this issue:

Using cheats or walkthroughs to beat the ENTIRE GAME is lazy and pathetic. I don't have a problem with using a walkthrough to get passed an extremely difficult level, but the entire game? It's silly and pointless. Cheat codes: fine to use after you've already beaten the game, silly to use to beat the game rediculously fast without any challenge

Understand yet? Games are challenging for a reason. Do you know the saying "if you can't stand the heat, get out of the kitchen?" It no doubt applies to gaming. I don't care if people use a walkthrough to get themselves through A level, or even two... but the whole game from start to finish, that's what I have a problem with, and I have absolutely no respect for anyone who does that, and I refuse to acknowledge them as gamers, before, now, or ever. If you don't play for the challenge, go watch TV, because you'll get more out of doing that. And being that we're all game designers at some level, I'm surprised no one is taking my side on this. If you beat a game with infinite health, super cars, and a walkthrough to map you through it from the opening FMV to the final credits, you shouldn't be proud... you should be ashamed. And that's what ticks me off about walkthroughs. There's not challenge in gaming any more, and there's no pride amongst those who beat games. If you haven't sat through the credits of a game just to see them, knowing that's your only prize for all of your determination, then you won't know the feeling because you don't have the skill it takes to beat a game without a ton of help. And please note, I said a TON... as I've said countless times and will keep saying until people recognize that I'm saying it, I don't have a problem with people using cheats or walkthroughs occasionally, but the people who use them to get all the way through the game to bypass every challenge need to be dragged out of their houses and shot in the street so the neighbors learn from the ere of their ways. UGH, I'm starting to think everyone argues with me just to get me to say stuff like that so from now on I'll do that at the opening bell


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Hobgoblin Lord
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Posted: 12th Jul 2006 11:43
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Quote: "need to be dragged out of their houses and shot in the street "


Sure this quote is what the people trying to tie game developers hands need, quick Matt say its not your fault, you played to much GTA.

I do agree with Matt's last statement about start to finish walkthrough of a game, you are not playing a game then you are watching it. That said however the need for these walkthroughs comes from developers making some games insanely hard and focused toward the hard core, 300 button pressess a second, gamer rather than the average person. If we as developers make a game challenging without the need for lightning fast reflexes or levels that make no real sense then you will see less people use these methods to beat our games.

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Cash Curtis II
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Posted: 12th Jul 2006 12:14
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@Matt Rock -

Video game morality, huh? Who cares? You're always so extreme in the things you say that you always manage to offend someone.

Cheats and walkthroughs are simply a fact of the industry. Preaching about how great you are when you play games won't change that, it will just alienate your peers and your customers.

Personally, I'd rather make some money off of the cheats and walkthroughs rather than someone else. Therefore, I might just cater to the type of gamer that likes them.

Sure, when my son puts in a cheat 10% of the way through a game it annoys me. I like to play a game all the way through. If I really like it, I'll play it again, this time with a walkthrough. But really, who cares? That's just the way I play. The game company still sold their copy, no one is getting hurt. When nobody is getting hurt, it's just pointless to argue about.


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Jeku
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Posted: 12th Jul 2006 20:30
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Quote: "I don't have a problem with people using cheats or walkthroughs occasionally, but the people who use them to get all the way through the game to bypass every challenge need to be dragged out of their houses and shot in the street so the neighbors learn from the ere of their ways."


Come on, you know you weren't being clear about this.

You said:

Quote: "Using cheat codes and walkthroughs for a game is like renting a movie and fast-forwarding to the end just to see it."


Quote: "I call anyone who uses cheat codes a wannabe."


Should I quote some more? We're only picking on you because you make such far-left comments it's hard to resist!


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Matt Rock
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Posted: 12th Jul 2006 23:18
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Far-left? This can't be tied to politics, not unless I say "Clinton could beat Bush at Tekken, no contest" (and what a match that would be!)

And Cash, I don't think I've offended anyone just yet But I'd rather alienate the customers who want to use a walkthrough to get through a whole game, from start to finish, that I've made. If I make a game hard enough to warrant the use of a walkthrough, I don't expect the customer to use said walkthrough... I expect them to grin and bare it and buy/ play the game for the challenge. Like in Myst... do you know how many people I've talked to who say they "loved the game, but needed a walkthrough?" That game wasn't THAT hard... a little alternative thinking and some puzzle solving is all it takes to get the green page. If I make a game like Myst, and someone uses a walkthrough to get through the entire game, I'll be morbidly depressed. Like "host of Family Fued" depressed!


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Saikoro
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Posted: 13th Jul 2006 05:18
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Quote: "But I'd rather alienate the customers who want to use a walkthrough to get through a whole game, from start to finish, that I've made."

Yet you expect your games to sell enough to keep your company above water without having to be bought out by some other company? Good luck with that one.


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Cash Curtis II
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Posted: 13th Jul 2006 07:03
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Quote: "Far-left? This can't be tied to politics, not unless I say "Clinton could beat Bush at Tekken, no contest" (and what a match that would be!)"

You can be far left about anything, not just politics. You have the unique talent of being far left on just about any issue.

Matt, what language do you use to make your games? I've just never seen a WIP from you, except that Cheney Hunter game, so I assume that you're not using DBP.


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Bizar Guy
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Posted: 13th Jul 2006 07:17
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Haven't been following the recent developments in this thread, but would like to point something out which should have been obvious imeadiately on the page:
Quote: "Availability: This item has not yet been released. You may order it now and we will ship it to you when it arrives. Ships from and sold by Amazon.com. "


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Matt Rock
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Posted: 13th Jul 2006 08:27
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I think there's a TGC conspiracy against me It seems like every time we get into a discussion about something that isn't music, I end up being the only person defending something against everyone else, and I swear I don't do it on purpose... for some reason I'm just extremely different from the rest of you.

Quote: "Matt, what language do you use to make your games? I've just never seen a WIP from you, except that Cheney Hunter game, so I assume that you're not using DBP."

That's because most of the games we've done so far have all been for customers. We've done a few games for various websites, fetching about $400 to $1200 per title (not per unit of course), and we've done a few training apps for businesses usually getting about $620 as a standard rate. It's like freelance training programs for small businesses. Most of them have told us our programs worked really well in training their employees, too (with the exception of two VERY angry clients who were made about this, that, and the other thing). Our first entertainment games are due for release in August, but they'll both be shareware and I don't feel like its right to post a game I intend to make money on (even if its only a small amount) in the WIP, because the source and media will never be open to the public (until some jerks breaks into DBP and posts our code lol). Can that be done btw?

Anyway, back on subject:
Quote: "Yet you expect your games to sell enough to keep your company above water without having to be bought out by some other company? Good luck with that one."

If a customer is so childish that they wouldn't buy a game because we won't make walkthroughs available, and because we're going to proactively attempt to suede people from making them, then I don't want their money polluting the well in the first place I really doubt there's anyone on this planet THAT silly. When we release challenging games, we expect people to BEAT them and earn that victory properly. And if your game has any segment that's too difficult for the vast majority of your customers to beat after a few attempts, then you're a poor designer and there's no two ways about that


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Cash Curtis II
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Posted: 13th Jul 2006 09:43 Edited at: 13th Jul 2006 12:44
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Quote: "Our first entertainment games are due for release in August, but they'll both be shareware and I don't feel like its right to post a game I intend to make money on (even if its only a small amount) in the WIP, because the source and media will never be open to the public (until some jerks breaks into DBP and posts our code lol). Can that be done btw?"

That really doesn't make sense. DBP code is machine language. The worst someone can do is extract some of the DLL string tables, but your code cannot be reverse engineered.

WIP is not for public projects, it's for any projects. I find it great for getting feedback from the community on my projects. People will beta test for you too. My code and media is never going to be released. It simply doesn't matter. A WIP also shows people that you're actually doing something.

Quote: "If a customer is so childish that they wouldn't buy a game because we won't make walkthroughs available, and because we're going to proactively attempt to suede people from making them, then I don't want their money polluting the well in the first place "

That viewpoint is... amazing... Personally, I'm going to make the greatest game I can. Then I want to sell it to as many people as I can. I don't care who buys it. I'll sell it to prison convicts, Republicans, feminists, Radio Head fans, whoever. They can do whatever they want with it. They can use the walkthrough and mod the game so that all of the characters are nude. Who cares?

It's not about your customers being too childish to buy your game. It's just about increasing the appeal factor of your game. If they see your game, which might look nice, accompanied by the message "People that use a walkthrough are losers and should be shot." then they'll probably think that your game is going to be dull, just like that viewpoint.

Matt, the first thing I'm going to do is play your game through and write a walkthrough. Then I'll publish a program that can hack the memory addresses and change the variables while the game is running. Cheers!


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Jeku
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Posted: 13th Jul 2006 21:32
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Matt doesn't seem to understand that it's not up to the developer whether walkthrus get made for their titles I just laugh when I read his naive posts.


"I understand creative people. After all, I worked with towel designers." - Ray Kassar, former head of Atari
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Matt Rock
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Posted: 14th Jul 2006 07:21
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I do understand it, and and it doesn't make me naive just because I wish it wasn't like that... because I wish people wouldn't be so lazy that they use a walkthrough to dominate every single level. Someday I'll make a game so mind-blisteringly hard that no one can beat it to write a walkthrough. I mean, so hard that I'll need to give away a million-dollar prize to the first person who *does* beat it That'll teach you tossers a thing or two (sorry for the lame attempt at british slang, it's been "Guy Ritchie" week at my house)

I know I can't keep from selling to lazy idiots, but I just wish they'd actually try to play the game and validate their win as opposed to just cheating with a walkthrough and not working for the victory. I don't see why that's such a criminal request. If I work my hiney off making a game difficult, and some loser visits the "Curtis' house of making Matt's games easier" website and uses a walkthrough to get through every frickin' level of the game, then all of that hard work is utterly wasted on that lazy incompetent player. Again, do I care if someone uses it for *A* level? No... but the idiots, the spineless talentless morons who use walkthroughs to beat the entire game? I'd rather they didn't buy my game at all, and even though I know they will and I can't stop that, it doesn't change my opinion that they're idiots. Yes, I put myself on a pedestal above people like that, regardless of what any of you think of me for it (as if that were thing that made any of you hate me lol), because unlike them, I actually PLAY the games I buy, and you're not a real gamer if you don't work for it. If you dish out $50 for a game, you owe it to yourself to earn the win. Chivalry in gaming died with the internet No one cares about earning victory anymore. This generation is so lazy they expect everything to be handed to them on a platter, and that is, at the heart of it all, why I hate walkthroughs


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Cash Curtis II
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Posted: 14th Jul 2006 11:51 Edited at: 14th Jul 2006 11:53
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Man, they're just games... I prefer to invest my emotions in real issues.

And if you make a game so hard nobody can beat it, nobody will play it. It would just be a bad game. I can make an unbeatable game in 20 minutes. That's almost like making a book too hard to read so that there will never be a movie that lazy non-book readers can watch.

Do you watch movies Matt? Couldn't you consider yourself just the same as those people with the games, since you might not have read every book every movie is based on?


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Megaton Cat
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Posted: 14th Jul 2006 11:53 Edited at: 14th Jul 2006 11:54
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Dude. They ARE just games, not a part-time job.

If you're gonna spend 4 hours a day on Matt's insanely hard game because you're too proud to use a walkthrough, then I think there are more importent things you should be investing time in.


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Cash Curtis II
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Posted: 14th Jul 2006 13:13
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Quote: "but the idiots, the spineless talentless morons who use walkthroughs to beat the entire game?"


Quote: "This generation is so lazy they expect everything to be handed to them on a platter"


Quote: "Chivalry in gaming died with the internet "




Great quotes, Matt Rock style.

Quote: "I'd rather they didn't buy my game at all, and even though I know they will and I can't stop that, it doesn't change my opinion that they're idiots. "


Quote: "Yes, I put myself on a pedestal above people like that, regardless of what any of you think of me for it (as if that were thing that made any of you hate me lol), because unlike them, I actually PLAY the games I buy, and you're not a real gamer if you don't work for it."


Matt, you're the last true action hero. An honorable game player. If the Jedi or the Klingons played video games, they'd play just like you. Luckily, you know what's truly important in life.




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Megaton Cat
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Posted: 14th Jul 2006 13:35
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Ugh, not another "The younger generation is falling apart to slab" gig from Matt Rockkkkk.


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Jeku
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Posted: 14th Jul 2006 22:58
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Notice how Matt changed his slant? First he was slamming EVERYONE who EVER uses cheats. Now he's changed it to those who use a walkthrough to beat an ENTIRE game--- surely a very small percentage of gamers out there.

But Matt, why do you care what people do with your game *after* they've paid $50 for it? I have never met a developer (and I've met lots) who cares what someone does with their game in their own time. Seriously, if this is bothering you so much and working you up like this, I recommend putting that energy into something more useful like, I dunno, volunteer work for the blind.


"I understand creative people. After all, I worked with towel designers." - Ray Kassar, former head of Atari
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Megaton Cat
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Posted: 14th Jul 2006 23:12
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That's a good question, how on earth does it affect you if the guy who bought your game plays it without cheats or uses it as a door-stopper?


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Chris Franklin
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Posted: 14th Jul 2006 23:13
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hmm don't get me started on the some of the gta cheats i found

i use them just for free roaming around not completing the game

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Megaton Cat
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Posted: 14th Jul 2006 23:21
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Yeah, being denied to use cheats in GTA is just plain evil. That's where all the madness is!!!


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Chris Franklin
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Posted: 14th Jul 2006 23:24 Edited at: 14th Jul 2006 23:25
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Quote: "Yeah, being denied to use cheats in GTA is just plain evil. That's where all the madness is!!!"

lol yea pedestrains riot then add flying car on in gta sa it's like fly the planes

Edit:Imagine Nfsmw with a flycing car w000000t

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Cash Curtis II
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Posted: 15th Jul 2006 03:30
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Hey Matt, don't miss my biting, cruel sarcasm on the last page!!!




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Oddmind
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Posted: 15th Jul 2006 04:04 Edited at: 15th Jul 2006 04:10
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matt your arguments give me indegestion.

i use walkthroughs for most of the games i beat because i have OCD and I get anxiety attacks if I'm not sure Ive gotten all of the items. It took me several years to do FFX.

I really hope you don't mean I'm a pathetic piece of crap. If thats the case you can shove it.


Oh And now imgoing to get a list of all your customers, after asking them why they payed $600 for the program I'm going to make a walkthrough for all of the employees using it to train. I;m going to tell them where all the secret bosses and weapons are and how to beat the program with a really high score. thats what I like to do.

formerly KrazyJimmy

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Matt Rock
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Posted: 17th Jul 2006 04:34
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Using cheats to play GTA in a free-roam sort of way is fine, that's what the cheat codes are there for, but if you need cheats or walkthroughs to beat any level in any GTA game then I hope your parents have rubber padding throughout your home Unless you have that OCD condition, but most people don't, and those are the people I have a problem with, the people who use them without a care in the world. It's lazy and if I make a game to be complex and difficult to beat, then I expect the people who play it will take the time to try and beat it properly. Explain this to me: If a game isn't challenging, how can it be fun? Seems pretty lame to me.

Quote: "Oh And now imgoing to get a list of all your customers, after asking them why they payed $600 for the program I'm going to make a walkthrough for all of the employees using it to train. I;m going to tell them where all the secret bosses and weapons are and how to beat the program with a really high score. thats what I like to do."


@ Shaniqua from Captain Obvious:
um... duh. They're training programs, not "Games." You can pay $3500 for a professional software company to make training programs for your employees, or you can pay my small team (or some other indie developer) a fraction of that and get a program of equal quality that performs all of the same functions. And they don't have levels or bosses or weapons... they're training programs. Usually the client gives us a work book that they normally use to train employees with, and we digitize the questions and insert images and other media, we include the training videos in easily-accessible windows, and for a few of them we've included a "virtual cash register" to help their employees learn what the buttons do and all of that. And the prices we set up are based on what the clients suggest. Our first client ever said "Hey Matt, I'll pay you $500 to make some software to train my employees on how to properly make pizza and work deli equipment," and being sane, I agreed, and that's where it all started.

If you're so lame that you'd make a walkthrough of a game I made just out of spite, then YOU are the one who has some growing up to do. The only thing lamer than your cheesy walkthrough is how lame you are to do something that idiotic.

Lasty, @ Jake: I care because if I work my butt off trying to make a game that's challenging, then it's challenging for a reason, and if some lazy moron wants to just cheat his or her way through the entire game, level after level, then it was a waste of my time to even make it that challenging. And no, I didn't change my stance, and quite frankly this entire thread is making me angry enough to change my opinion entirely to think all of the people who use them for any reason are lazy. I'm not even close to being the smartest person on these forums, and if I can beat any game put in front of me without EVER using a cheat or a walkthrough, then I don't see why others can't.


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Cash Curtis II
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Posted: 17th Jul 2006 05:00
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Quote: "If you're so lame that you'd make a walkthrough of a game I made just out of spite, then YOU are the one who has some growing up to do. The only thing lamer than your cheesy walkthrough is how lame you are to do something that idiotic."

Ouch, man. That really hurt. I promise the walkthrough will have a very nice color scheme. And hyperlinks and screenshots and such. Sorry that I have to grow up, and that the walkthrough is cheesy, and how lame I am to do something that idiotic. Because we all know what truly matters in this life, and that's gamers that don't use walkthroughs.

Here's the bottom line, according to Matt - gamers that don't use walkthoughs = good people. Gamers that use walkthoughs = bad people. There is not other moral estimate that we can use for a person if they're using a walkthrough, because they're already scum.

But worse is a person who plays the entire game through and then WRITES A WALKTHROUGH! OH NO, ALL IS LOST FOR ME!!!




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