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Geek Culture / Scary thought about teleporting technology...

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Sid Sinister
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Posted: 14th Jul 2006 05:09
As a star trek fan I was thinking about the teleportation system the other day. It is based on copying the cellular structure, sending it to another place, and then destroying the one at the beginning right? Well if thats the case what if you don't destroy the one at the beginning? Couldn't you have a clone that would retain all the memories and skills that the "original" would have?

Kind of scary... You could never die.

Talk about a storyline!
Megaton Cat
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Posted: 14th Jul 2006 05:26
YOU would die, another you would just live in your place.


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Chenak
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Posted: 14th Jul 2006 05:29
I think as the technology is now, I would be more afraid of being turned inside out to be honest
Sid Sinister
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Posted: 14th Jul 2006 06:34
LOL, yea, good point. Like that pig in that movie Galaxy Quest with Tim Allen? Great movie... lol.
Oneka
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Posted: 14th Jul 2006 06:41
Quote: "YOU would die, another you would just live in your place."


Exactly


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SirFire
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Posted: 14th Jul 2006 07:33
As I understand the theory of the transporter used in star trek, it's a matter-to-energy-to-transmitter-to-reciever-to-energy-to-matter converter.

So in order for the destination to convert energy into matter, it must get the energy from the originating station by converting your original self into energy, thereby destroying you.

If you do not get destroyed by being converted into energy, the energy will not be present at the destination to convert into your new self.

QuothTheRaven
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Posted: 14th Jul 2006 08:43
If it clones your cellular structure, then your clone will be the same age as you are, so all of you would die at the same time.

AND YOU CALL YOURSELF A STAR TREK FAN.

CHRIST.

Pincho Paxton
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Posted: 14th Jul 2006 11:02
The other you surviving in Star Trek...That scenario has been portrayed a few times already in Star Trek.

Fallout
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Posted: 14th Jul 2006 11:08
I would be far more concerned about the practical joker in engineering constantly beaming me naked onto gay porn movie sets etc. It is a technology that could bring us all to our knees .... literally.

Drew Cameron
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Posted: 14th Jul 2006 11:19
Fallout, you're a hoot. "LOL".

Megaton Cat
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Posted: 14th Jul 2006 11:48
Oh dear...


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Lukas W
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Posted: 14th Jul 2006 12:29 Edited at: 14th Jul 2006 12:29
but would a teleport be able to copy ones counciouseness?

i think not, i think that it is unique to every person, so if you teleport yourself you would sciese to exist and therefore a new conciouseness and personality with the same memories as yourself would walk out that door.

but then again, i don't know what i am talking about.

Megaton Cat
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Posted: 14th Jul 2006 13:02
But then again, no such technology even exists, and you guys are just talking out of your ass.


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OSX Using Happy Dude
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Posted: 14th Jul 2006 13:31
The original query was covered in a TNG episode - when Riker was beaming up, a duplicate copy was made, due to atmospheric conditions. He then ended up with a duplicate (complete with matching DNA - as mentioned in DS9), but with a slightly different attitude (probably due to living alone).

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Pincho Paxton
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Posted: 14th Jul 2006 13:34
Quote: "But then again, no such technology even exists, and you guys are just talking out of your ass. "


It exists, but it only transports a few molecules at the moment.

Lukas W
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Posted: 14th Jul 2006 14:08 Edited at: 14th Jul 2006 14:09
i don't see how we can teleport "instantly" to one place to another.
nothing can move faster than the light yea? so if we were to teleport to the inside of the sun (anyone who volunteir?) it would still take us 8 minutes to teleport there.

and if we were to teleport to another galaxy we would be long dead before we're even halfway there.

Megaton Cat
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Posted: 14th Jul 2006 14:09 Edited at: 14th Jul 2006 14:18
Quote: "It exists, but it only transports a few molecules at the moment."


I still don't see how that makes human teleportation technology exist.


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Saikoro
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Posted: 14th Jul 2006 14:10
Quote: "so if we were to teleport to the inside of the sun (anyone who volunteir?) it would still take us 8 minutes to teleport there."

Such are the wonders of Hollywood movie magic.


Pincho Paxton
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Posted: 14th Jul 2006 14:29
Quote: "I still don't see how that makes human teleportation technology exist."


Well the first telephone wasn't like a telephone...

http://www.bellsystemmemorial.com/images/first_receiver_and_telephone.gif

flock
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Posted: 14th Jul 2006 14:40
Nerds, nerds, all of you! Just kidding. Copying the molecular structure doesn't copy the memories or the soul, would it? And that goes with skills. I thought teleportation was all physical. Matter to matter.

a.k.a. "flockhound"
Pincho Paxton
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Posted: 14th Jul 2006 14:44
Nobody knows for sure.

SpyDaniel
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Posted: 14th Jul 2006 14:48
There is a film about this, but the teleporter turns out to be a time machine. Its called Time Line.


Cash Curtis II
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Posted: 14th Jul 2006 15:36 Edited at: 14th Jul 2006 15:39
This question was raised in a Philosophy class that I took. It's an interesting subject, to a point. There are many interesting questions about identity and consciousness that can be raised by it. In fact, I wrote a segment of one of my papers on it. Here it is...



However, the bottom line is that it's not possible. We're asking questions about something that one day might or might not be possible. So, I think that the philosophical implications are limited to the imaginative.


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Tinkergirl
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Posted: 14th Jul 2006 15:54
Well actually, things can travel faster than light.
BBC article.
However, we cannot transmit information in that way. Entanglement might be a better way of doing it (two entangled electrons, identical in all ways). But still - it's all pipedreams until we can do something with it.

Sid Sinister
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Posted: 14th Jul 2006 15:57
Quote: "but would a teleport be able to copy ones counciouseness?"


Good point, and what about their soul!



Quote: "So in order for the destination to convert energy into matter, it must get the energy from the originating station by converting your original self into energy, thereby destroying you."


Oh... To tell you the truth I never actually knew that part. Wow, learn something knew everyday .

But ok then still... what if you just got another human being to become the energy source. It probably wouldn't work seeing that the energy is different in all of us, but put that aside (plus if we had teleporter technology we would have probably perfected cloning so just make a clone and use THAT as energy lol). Would it really be able to copy our thoughts too? I know it's sci-fi, but thats what the public said about going into space too. Alot of what we thought was impossible 20-30 years ago we are doing now.

Could it copy our thoughts?
Cash Curtis II
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Posted: 14th Jul 2006 16:04
The problem that people have with a transporter device copying their thoughts is the assumption that our thoughts are separate from our physical being.

I, however, believe that our thoughts and consciousness are inseparable from our physical being. If they were not, then mental illnesses such as alzheimer's wouldn't really be an issue.

Now, of course, we open an ugly can of worms, unsuitable for this forum. But, let's back up for a moment. If a transporter were possible, I believe that by the nature of the 'technology', yes, it would copy all of our thoughts to the new being that it created. The real question is - Is this new being created, with all of my thoughts and experiences, the exact same as me, or is it a different being? Anyway, read my report that I did a few posts up.


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Lukas W
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Posted: 14th Jul 2006 16:57
the definition of teleporting would be something like an entity that is moving without the use of any force?

wouldn't it mean then, that the only place to actually "teleport" would be in space?

i mean if you are floating in space and you manage to move by yourself without any other force interrupting (engines, entities to grab, gravity) you would actually be teleporting.

seeing as that is impossible...

but then again, i don't know what i am talking about but it's fun to pretend i know something

Seppuku Arts
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Posted: 14th Jul 2006 17:44
It would be impossible, if it were to create new cells, they where do they come from, or would it create new matter and destroy the old, as far as I am aware it is immpossible to destroy and create matter, so for the only way for this weird kind of technology to remotely work is to stock up on matter, its nice having those sci-fi technology things, but shame a lot of it cannot ever exist, I mean if I invented the time machine I could win the lottery and become filthy rich, I could also stop myself from being born, but how for that to work confuses the hell out of me.

Cash Curtis II
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Posted: 14th Jul 2006 17:55
Musashi, you're over complicating a moot point. Matter and energy are completely interchangeable. After all, E=MC^2. Have you studied anti-matter? Very interesting. When combined with matter, it creates huge amounts of energy. Theoretically, that same amount of energy could be converted back into matter. We just have no technology capable of anything like this. On sci-fi shows, they do it on a whim. That's because real science doesn't often entertain people as well as fake science.


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CattleRustler
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Posted: 14th Jul 2006 19:13
Quote: " I could also stop myself from being born, but how for that to work confuses the hell out of me."

go back to the night you were concieved and hand your dad a condom.
*poof* you'd disappear

Science, Mathematics, and Physics do not lie - only people do.
Saikoro
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Posted: 14th Jul 2006 19:20
Quote: "go back to the night you were concieved and hand your dad a condom.
*poof* you'd disappear"

But lets not think about that.


Cash Curtis II
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Posted: 14th Jul 2006 19:25
Maybe I'd go back in time and hand MYSELF a condom...


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Tinkergirl
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Posted: 14th Jul 2006 19:39
Quote: "go back to the night you were concieved and hand your dad a condom.
*poof* you'd disappear"

Classic paradox. You couldn't have handed him a condom if you didn't exist. So you'd exist - so you'd be able to hand him a condom and... Haven't you watched, The Time Machine? Or even read it - there's a link on my blog to the online free book.

BiggAdd
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Posted: 14th Jul 2006 19:49 Edited at: 14th Jul 2006 19:55
In theory you can walk through a wall... if all the Atomic Nuclei in ur body were perfectly aligned with the gaps between the nuclei of the wall... you'd pass right through it. But you all know that some things in theory are impossible to practice. You'll probably know this as everytime you swing your head towards the desk after listening to some noob................ it strikes it every time.

As for Time machines.... If they could be built (They never can)You would never make a mistake as you would have already gone back and corrected it. So realy there is no point in time machines.... Anyones greatest desire would be to correct things.

Lukas W
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Posted: 14th Jul 2006 20:45
indeed, that's why i keep thinking "it was meant to happen" when something happens. but when i tell somebody that... they just don't get my point.

monotonic
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Posted: 14th Jul 2006 21:28 Edited at: 14th Jul 2006 21:38
Time travel is not impossible, if you have read up on the theory of relativity you will see that time is only relative to one entity, in the link below it shows you that a bloke stood on a train traveling at the speed of light (186,000 mps ), and he shines a torch in the same direction as the train is moving, and the speed of the light coming out of the torch is traveling at 186,000 mps relative to the bloke shining the torch so you would think that to someone stood by the train track the light from the torch would be traveling at 186,000+186,000, but to the observer stood at the side of the train the light coming out of the torch is also traveling at 186,000 mps relative to him, so time for the bloke on the train must be going slower relative to the observer but to the bloke on the train time is moving at normal speed as is time relative to the obsrever!

The link
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/time/think.html

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Zaibatsu
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Posted: 14th Jul 2006 21:31
But what about the Teleportation Technology in Half-Life that cuased the Residence Cascade (excuse spelling)?

Read my profile to learn about all my wierd fanaticacies...

Lukas W
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Posted: 14th Jul 2006 22:02
monotonic,
if that is true then it would mean that the more you drive a car, the longer you will live! (by some 1/10000000INF secound each secound)

monotonic
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Posted: 14th Jul 2006 22:07
lol, yeah

I've just been looking for an article I read a few months ago, it was about a russian who spent so long on mir space station traveling around 64,000 miles an hour and when they came back to earth the digital clock that they had on their person was so many microseconds behind that of the synchronised clock on earth.

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David T
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Posted: 14th Jul 2006 22:45
Quote: "In theory you can walk through a wall... if all the Atomic Nuclei in ur body were perfectly aligned with the gaps between the nuclei of the wall... you'd pass right through it"


Probably not Add - the electron clouds around the molecules in your body would oppose each other. And you call yourself a chemist!

Fallout
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Posted: 14th Jul 2006 22:49
If you drive through a speed camera at over 160 mph you can't be caught on film. Surely that is a form of teleportation. To be at A, then appear at B, without a camera catching you inbetween.

Chris Franklin
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Posted: 14th Jul 2006 23:14
Quote: "If you drive through a speed camera at over 160 mph you can't be caught on film. Surely that is a form of teleportation. To be at A, then appear at B, without a camera catching you inbetween. "


haha cool but....

Wasn't that on topgear at 180mph?

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Kenjar
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Posted: 14th Jul 2006 23:16
I've been a long term fan of star trek, and am the sort of sad person who reads the technical manuals. Well, not so much these days, but as a teenager, growing up with TNG, I did.

The transporter does not destory the original in any way, as has already been mentioned, it converts the body into energy, and sends it to another destination, it's not new energy, and the energy coverted is encapsulated in a "confinement beam" and "containment field" meaning that the original energy is not altered, added too, or changed in any way shape or form. The body before being broken up is heavily scanned and stored as pattern data, each tiny peice of energy is tagged, tracked and monitored, then using the original data is moved back into it's original position and converted back into matter upon arrival.

My only problem with transporter technology is that, to my mind, to work properly, you'd need a sending station and receving station, I don't understand how the energy is reconstructed without machinary at the other end. But it is fiction after all, so who cares? I can only imagine that the confinement beam is design to do more then just ensure that the signal reaches the correct place, and the energy doesn't get spread over a wide area'.

They have messed this up abit with various story lines like Rikers duplicate, the story being that a second containment field and confinement beam was created to help with a difficult transport. Where the energy came from to create another human body (and it's a massive amount of energy) and how the second body was created by apprent accident, doesn't make much sense to me. But hey, it's a good clone story so again, who cares?

But my point is, that in threory nothing is changed or destoryed, no copies are made (except when the writer ignores how a technology is supposed to work), it's all 100% the original energy that leaves, and arrives, after all, matter at it's most basic form, is just energy.

Lukas W
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Posted: 14th Jul 2006 23:17 Edited at: 14th Jul 2006 23:23
Fallout,
i have been thinking about something similar for a very long time.

if you had the ability to pause time, and you were walking in front of a camera in several directions..

when you then looked at the camera (pretend this is a high framerate camera that can capture every nanosecound in time) would you in one frame see a million pictures of yourself as you are walking in several directions, as a photograph? or would it be too many things happening for the camera at once that it will not be able to capture anything?

it's very interesting to think of


Kenjar,
however, the air (oxygen and nitrogen) must be teleported too to the destination area, wouldn't that be correct? so if you are teleporting from a place where there is poisonous air you would bring that air with you and you would only spread that air to other locations while you are teleporting, trying to escape it, yay!

David T
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Posted: 14th Jul 2006 23:51
I imagine a teleporter would be more to do with opening a rift in space and getting your body through that rift - rather than try and recreate. It'd simily be too complex to recreate everything, right down to colour forces inside the quarks inside your hadrons inside your nuclei inside your atoms inside your molecules inside your cells inside your tissues etc.

BiggAdd
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Posted: 15th Jul 2006 00:35 Edited at: 15th Jul 2006 00:38
Depends on what force you hit the desk Mr. David. If it was a particulary annoying Noob..... you would hit pretty hard.

As for time travel. Finding out whether or not it exists would be pretty simple. Just Create a date... Say 2morrow at noon... and a Place... e.g London. And pass down to everyone through the generations for anyone who has created a time machine to come back to that particular place and time. Problem solved.

Fallout
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Posted: 15th Jul 2006 00:45
@Lukas W

My guess would be if you were able to pause time light would not travel. Therefore the camera wouldn't work, you would be blind, and those eggs you were boiling on the stove would never be ready to eat.

NeX the Fairly Fast Ferret
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Posted: 15th Jul 2006 21:59
And, any movement would count as being at infinite velocity. A 1m meter movement would be 1m/nothing, which equals infinity.


Since the other one was scaring you guys so much...
Bahamut
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Posted: 16th Jul 2006 02:58
Quote: "you're over complicating a moot point."





I've only done up to GCSE physics so I'm probably missing something really important here, but I seem to remember that energy can't be created or destroyed. I'm pretty sure the same went for matter too. Therefore, how would it work?

It takes energy to break bonds, so the breaking of molecules in the body would use energy, not create it. And besides, if this did create energy, how would recreation be assured on the other side? What if the molecules are not present? Would you only get half a body?

Or is it that the matter of the body is actually converted to energy itself (i.e. the actual atoms are converted)? I don't have a problem with this part, because they lie to you at GCSE, so most of my physics is dodgy at best. The confusing part is how the energy is reconverted into the exact same molecules in the exact same place relative to others in the body.

Or is it something else completely?


As for the conscious thought thing, it depends on what you believe. If you believe that the soul is not a physical thing then we have a serious ethical issue on our hands. If you believe that it's to do with chemical reactions and relative concentrations of different neurotranmitters in your brain, you may be ok.

The problem is that we'll never know if that person is just a copy or not because they're the same. The only person who'll know has just been killed because they were too damn lazy to walk. The other problem is that no-one will want to test it because of the whole conscious thought thing, so it may never happen.

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David T
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Posted: 16th Jul 2006 11:46
Quote: "I've only done up to GCSE physics so I'm probably missing something really important here, but I seem to remember that energy can't be created or destroyed. I'm pretty sure the same went for matter too. Therefore, how would it work?"


Matter can be destroyed, if it is converted into energy.

Energy is the universal currency for everything. You could create 1kg of mass with 9*10^16 joulues of energy, or if you had 1kg of mass lying around you could turn it into 9*10^16 joules of energy. But that fundamental energy is always conserved.

Quote: "It takes energy to break bonds, so the breaking of molecules in the body would use energy, not create it. And besides, if this did create energy, how would recreation be assured on the other side? What if the molecules are not present? Would you only get half a body?"


You're assuming the entire body is atomised (all bonds broken / turned into free atoms) before being destroyed. You could destroy each atom is situe I suppose, overcoming this need.

The energy to break the bonds is simply the energy needed to move the atoms apart. There's no special rule saying that bonds need to be broken before being annhilated.

I imagine missing the odd atom here and there wouldn't be a problem. If however your entire liver didn't turn up, expect a painful death. If you ever regained consciousness.

Quote: "Or is it that the matter of the body is actually converted to energy itself (i.e. the actual atoms are converted)? I don't have a problem with this part, because they lie to you at GCSE, so most of my physics is dodgy at best. The confusing part is how the energy is reconverted into the exact same molecules in the exact same place relative to others in the body."


The rest of the world has a problem with this one. If we knew how to do these things, we'd be teleporting ourselves like there's no tomorrow.

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