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Geek Culture / [LOCKED] The Megaton Cat will be unleashed like a tidal wave on the US!

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Matt Rock
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Posted: 18th Jul 2006 17:23
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That's where you're wrong Cash. You're tolerant, and a pretty big chunk of people our age are tolerant, but for every guy I know whose accepting of gay people I know at least two who aren't. Homophobia is rampant in this country and that's not even close to being an "opinion." Fundamentalists have backing by the people... they're good at stirring up stuff with the common person on the street. You fail to recognize the millions of people older than us who are still afraid of alternative lifestyles, and the millions more who won't admit their fear because they don't want to tick people off. I could say the sky was blue and still you'd write it off as just my opinion lol jk!

Quote: "Matt: I am pretty sure he was kidding."

I know, I wasn't taking him seriously About 9/10ths of that post was sarcastic, or at least an attempt at sarcasm.


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Cash Curtis II
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Posted: 18th Jul 2006 17:32 Edited at: 18th Jul 2006 17:33
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Well, here's one fact for you - despite resistance, gays have more freedom than ever to... be gay. Even the media is reflecting it in huge ways - Six Feet Under, Will and Grace, The L Word (too bad I don't have Showtime ), Broke Back Mountain, etc. This shows exist, and people like them. Media follows the trends of society, not the other way around. 15 years ago they'd have been set on fire.

So, gays can be gay, and go... gay off together in relative peace and safety. Things aren't perfect, but they're getting better.


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Manticore Night
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Posted: 18th Jul 2006 19:16
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Quote: "Most of the country hates gay people. That was proven by the 2004 election. And this is the part where I'm lynched for saying most of America is homophobic, even though it's a fact. And if we WERE ok with being gay in the US, what's the problem with that? They should have the same right to lose 50% of their earnings as the rest of the population, imo."
What about SanFrancisco, I hear they LOVE gays there.

[center]It's amazing how much TV has raised us. (Bart Simpson)

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Matt Rock
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Posted: 18th Jul 2006 19:36
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I liked Six Feet Under, I almost cried during the show's finale I liked how they brought the dead back to life in visions, it was neat. I didn't really think of it as a "gay show" as much as it was a show with two gay guys in it (and Claire's exploits in college while she explored her options ) I agree, it's definitely getting better, but they need to figure out how to break through to the hardcore homophobes that gay marriage will not "destroy" the sanctity of marriage. I don't see the logic behind the opinion that two gay guys raising a kid will produce a gay kid... it just doesn't make sense. If that kid wants to be gay, he'll be gay, if he wants to be straight, he'll be straight, end of story. In the very least he'll have a nifty fashion sense

Sorry Meg for turning your travel thread into a discussion on gay marriage, I'll cut it out It's manticore's fault! lol

@ Megaton: Did you convert your currency yet? It may sound stupid for me to remind you of that, but on occasion I've met canadian tourists who said "screw it" and brought their loonies and toonies here. hehe, your money is loony toons When I was a kid I got a serious kick out of that lol


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Oddmind
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Posted: 18th Jul 2006 19:59
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down in a place we call mid town its every man for themselves... just the men.

i doubt america is all that different from toronto, just the food probably sucks.

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Matt Rock
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Posted: 18th Jul 2006 20:08
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They use the littler, higher-counting numbers on the speedometer. The ones that go up to 260

(yes, I know what KPH are and I acknowledge that the US is stupid for not using the simpler metric system).


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Megaton Cat
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Posted: 18th Jul 2006 21:26
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I believe there is a thing called a credit card, which people carry instead of carrying huge lumps of cash and getting jacked, so I don't believe it matters what currency I bring with me.

I'll bring some loonies and toonies to impress all the New Yorkers anyway. Wee!


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Jeku
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Posted: 18th Jul 2006 22:37
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Megaton -- Unfortunately the US is WAAAAAY far behind with their banking system--- don't be surprised if you buy something and they won't even take your debit card.

I went to a Macy's in the largest mall in Seattle, bought my wife an expensive purse, and the lady said there's no debit system in yet but it's coming in the near future. I was floored that they still take personal cheques We've had Interac here for as long as I can remember--- I learned that Canada has an advanced banking system compared to the US but didn't think it was *that* bad.


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Hobgoblin Lord
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Posted: 19th Jul 2006 01:36
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Quote: "Most of the country hates gay people. That was proven by the 2004 election. And this is the part where I'm lynched for saying most of America is homophobic, even though it's a fact."


and

Quote: "That's where you're wrong Cash. You're tolerant, and a pretty big chunk of people our age are tolerant, but for every guy I know whose accepting of gay people I know at least two who aren't. Homophobia is rampant in this country and that's not even close to being an "opinion." "


A) First off Matt there were alot of things that influenced the election, neither candidate supported gay marriage, though Kerry did not support a consitutional amendment to ban it and said he would instead leave it up to each state to make their own decision. So Bush winning is not "Proof" of anything except your ability to pull facts from various orafices. This is something that never would have come up anyway had the government not decided to stick its nose into what was a religious ceremony. (I support gay marriage by the way, who am I to decide how someone else lives.)

B) Regardless of the people you know I think you are way off on your stats I know very few people who "Hate" gay people, and by very few I mean none, though I do know some who do no support gay marriage but I don't quantify that as hating anyone. I don't like affirmative action, but by no means do I hate minorities.

C) Before you go shooting your mouth off about what is "Fact" provide some articles, studies, whatever that support your assertion. As far as I have seen there has not been a poll of all the people in the US to see who likes or does not like any group. Media groups poll small numbers of people, phrase the questions in a way to get the results they want, and pass it on to us as factual when they hold no more water then whatever "Fact" you decide to make up.

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Jeff Miller
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Posted: 19th Jul 2006 02:25
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I would stongly suggest carefully planning the Washington DC leg of the trip in advance, because that will give you the most opportunity to take in the maximum without killing time travelling between venues. Check out the Smithsonian site and especially maps that show what is nearby. The Air & Space Museum is literally one of a kind, and I believe the most heavily visited attraction in the country if not the world. So many Smithsonian museums are arranged around an easily navigable park (which they call the Mall), with the Capitol at one end and the Washington Monument at the other, and some non-Smithsonian attractions are right there, like the National Botanical Gardens. You can only take in a small fraction in any one visit. I have been going for a weekend every year for about 15 years now, and I still have a lot to see.

Travel light on your visit to government buildings like the Smithsonian: not as bad as getting on a plane, but there will be some issues with searching backpacks.

New York: my latest experiences have been that getting from one place to another is a pain, and time consuming. Actually, I'm not sure why I said "latest", since that has been my experience since I started taking a bus to visit there on weekends when I was in school back in the early 1960's (not a typo). My recommendation is to pick one of numerous targets and plan to kill a lot of time there.

Baltimore: Not regarded as a big tourist place by many Americans. The harbor area has some interesting features. If you go there, you can probably tour an old square-rigger called the Constellation, now operated as a ship-museaum. My step-father was actually commissioned on it for a few weeks during WWII when it was used as a naval-barracks (so to speak) to hold incoming sailors processed but not yet assigned to warships, in Norfolk, Virginia. If you are as Megaton as your handle implies, you will have a tough time moving between decks. If you go, imagine being on it for 1 to 2 years at sea in the mid 19th century.
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Matt Rock
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Posted: 19th Jul 2006 03:53
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Links? Piece of cake. Try this, this, or this, all polls that point directly to most americans not being cool with gay marriage (and please note I tried to avoid the more biased polls, like Fox News or the New York Times).

FACT: Most people won't admit they don't like the idea of gay marriage because of social pressure. They don't want to be labeled as a "gay basher" or in any way a bigot. So they use opinion polls to voice their opinions. Others don't care who they say things to and don't care who they offend, like Bill O'Reilly for instance. But don't fool yourself into believing that the election came down to anything other than gay marriage. If the american people looked at his track record he wouldn't have been re-elected. But anyhoo...

@ Megaton: I just saw this CNN report about criminals in the DC area targeting tourist areas so watch out for that!


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Hobgoblin Lord
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Posted: 19th Jul 2006 08:14 Edited at: 19th Jul 2006 08:19
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Quote: "all polls that point directly to most americans not being cool with gay marriage"


is not the same as

Quote: "Most of the country hates gay people. "


Had you said most americans disapprove of gay marriage I would have agreed with you, but polls also show the majority of americans did not want a federal amendment to the constitution and those rights to remain with the states. The fact that these people do not endorse gay marriage however is far from "Hating gay people".



Quote: "Influence on 2004 presidential election
There is much debate about the degree to which the Federal Marriage Amendment influenced the 2004 U.S. Presidential Election.

By the time Americans went to the polls, both John Kerry and George W. Bush had somewhat similar positions on gay marriage, opposing the extension of marriage rights to same-sex couples and supporting states' rights on civil unions, although Kerry opposed the Federal Marriage Amendment and affirmatively supported civil unions, while Bush supported the Federal Marriage Amendment, he was not opposed to states enacting their own civil union legislation.[13]"


Do not fool yourself into believing the dissapproval of gay marriage is a conservative only thing either, I live it likely the most liberal area in the country (a place where if you ask someone who they voted for they say I don't know I just checked off all the democrats.) and when our state said it was legal they were all upset and voicing complaints (and presenting arguments that did not hold water) just like any bible thumping conservative.

and a quote from the front page of one of your links
Quote: "Jan. 21— Most Americans agree with President Bush's opposition to same-sex marriage — but most also oppose amending the U.S. Constitution to ban it, saying instead that it should be a matter for the individual states to decide."


If this is the case then more people would have voted for Kerry on this issue because this was his exact stance, to disapprove of marriage but allow states to regulate the matter.

Megaton, sorry we are so far off subject here, regardless of what some people say this is a greatplace to live or visit and I am sure you will have a great time. If your itinerary is not set in stone I say post some of the things that interest you and some of the locals may have some great ideas of places for you to see.

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Oddmind
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Posted: 19th Jul 2006 08:26 Edited at: 19th Jul 2006 08:28
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all those news sources are private corporations and are allowed to give faulty informaiton, and commonly do when a need is shown for info from the public.

I'm not saying that those poles arent totally right, but chances are they were done in a hurry or only in one area/target audience.

CNN was the first one to have this legalized after a scandal with chemicals put in cows milk to make it produce more. turns out it can cause cnacer and screw up children pre birth. it turned into a big ordeal and pressure from the public mixed with the horrible outcome of telling the truth elad to a law to be made that says its legal to give faulty information.

they use this right on many occasions, to have stories and viewers.

Quote: "The arguement ended before you guys had even started commenting on it"


hehe no it didn't... obviously...

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Matt Rock
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Posted: 19th Jul 2006 21:56
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Well, it came back to life Okay, I'll admit that most people don't hate gays, but they do dissapprove of gay marriage, and in a way isn't that the same? I mean, who are we to tell gay people they aren't allowed to get married? Funny story, I have this co-worker who was talking about this recently and he said he didn't like gay marriage or gay people, and when I asked why, he said "I don't want to see dudes kissing." Seriously, they'll do that even MORE if they can't get married Think about it: You'll kiss your girlfriend/ boyfriend in public all the time; we all have at some point. But your wife or husband? They'd kiss less, and thus you'd think that gay-bashing homophobes would be more inclined to allow it lol you have to give props to my twisted logic I think most of the people who are opposed to gay marriage *and* opposed to legislation against it are SMART people who understand the importance of a separation of church and state. The federal (or local) government has no right imposing their religious beliefs into ammendments of any kind, ever. It's the whole reason we broke away from England in the first place In this country, you're supposed to be allowed to believe in any religion you want, or even to NOT believe in any religion (like me), and laws based on religious beliefs aren't supposed to be practiced. Not that it stopped Bush from vetoing stem cell research, or going after abortion, but hey, what can we do about it. Oh right, revolt or better yet, we can vote in November so he's impeached by December Anyway, I'm going to avoid this topic from here on out because I totally hijacked Megaton's thread without really wanting to. We should turn the forum on my crappy website into a TGC-related debate forum lol.


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Megaton Cat
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Posted: 19th Jul 2006 22:00
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You know, to an outsider looking at the thread post count, one would think everyone cares so much about me going to the US.

Bwhahaha. Ha. Bwa.


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Matt Rock
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Posted: 19th Jul 2006 22:02
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lol so in other words, to help boost your already-significant popularity on TGC, you want us to discuss gay marriage more often? That's funny in at least five different ways hehe


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Jeku
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Posted: 19th Jul 2006 22:39
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Quote: "and please note I tried to avoid the more biased polls, like Fox News or the New York Times"


Riiiight, by quoting CNN? Nice.

Quote: "Okay, I'll admit that most people don't hate gays, but they do dissapprove of gay marriage, and in a way isn't that the same?"


No it's not the same thing. I can see from your incredibly narrow-minded viewpoint it would be the same--- much like you probably think if you like guns then you're a murderer.

Quote: "The federal (or local) government has no right imposing their religious beliefs into ammendments of any kind, ever."


Dude, stop saying it's only religious people that are against it. You are about as knowledgeable as a tree who only sees the world from his little park. I know many people who are against gay marriage and are not religious--- learn to separate fact from fiction.


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Manticore Night
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Posted: 19th Jul 2006 22:56
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Quote: "because I totally hijacked Megaton's thread without really wanting to. "
Acctually I think that was my fault.

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Megaton Cat
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Posted: 19th Jul 2006 22:56
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Quote: "That's funny in at least five different ways hehe"


I only counted one.


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code master
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Posted: 19th Jul 2006 23:24
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Quote: "In this country, you're supposed to be allowed to believe in any religion you want, or even to NOT believe in any religion (like me), and laws based on religious beliefs aren't supposed to be practiced. Not that it stopped Bush from vetoing stem cell research, or going after abortion"


You are. Stem Cell research and Abortion have nothing to do with Christianity, there Ethically wrong.

End of story.

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Manticore Night
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Posted: 19th Jul 2006 23:36
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So is not letting some 12 year old have a babby and ruin their lives. That's why there's a debate. This thead is going to hell.

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code master
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Posted: 19th Jul 2006 23:39
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It's their own fault.

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Hobgoblin Lord
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Posted: 20th Jul 2006 01:36
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Quote: ""Okay, I'll admit that most people don't hate gays, but they do dissapprove of gay marriage, and in a way isn't that the same?""


Now I am not going to be harsh like Jeku, but two things.

1) Did everyone see the first part of this sentence, Matt made a concession.

2) Really, I don't agree it is the same.
If I hated guns and the right to possess them I would not thus hate gun owners.
If title 9 really bugs me and I think it should be abolished,it does not mean I have a hatred of women or womens sports.
Just because someone wants Affirmative Action abolished does not mean they hate minorities.
If you are dead set against legalizing pot and or other drugs, it does not mean you hate potsmokers.


Codemaster
Quote: "End of story."


Sounds overly arrogant, did someone promote you to the rank of the be-all-end-all when it comes to discussions?

Now on stem cell research I would certainly say that growing fetusus to be destroyed just to collect the stem cells would be horribly wrong, However using stem cells that can be collected from the umbilical cord of a newborn is good science (it is however much more costly and produces far fewer cells). If you think the second part is still ethically wrong then I suggest you never take any medication for anything because somewhere along the line something unethical was done.

Abortion is a tricky one, though I do not approve of it I feel it is not my right to ban what others do to their body. That said however there are a few problems with it.
1) Women who use it as a form of Birth Control; unless some serious risk is presented, or in the case of rape or incest, you should be limited to the amount of times you are allowed an abortion.
2) I am all for this "right to choose" nonsense. I call it nonsense for the following reasons, a 13 year old girl can enter a family planning office and get an abortion without her parents knowledge. The same girl however can not get treated for a broken finger, or any other medical condition unless there is great risk to her health without a parent or guardian saying it is ok. This girl also cannot buy a pack of cigarettes (why its here body where is the right to choose). Also even with a parents permission in most places this girl cannot get a tattoo until she is 18, and cannot drink till she is 21. what happened to the right to choose? I get it, it's a right to choose what we say you can choose, not to actually have any control over your own body.

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code master
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Posted: 20th Jul 2006 01:49
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Quote: "Sounds overly arrogant, did someone promote you to the rank of the be-all-end-all when it comes to discussions?"


I didn't really mean it to be, just meant that's pretty much sums up my stance, sorry.

As for your points on stem cell research and abortion, I agree with 75% of it. The 25% that I differ with is:

I am all for this "right to choose" nonsense

I agree that it's nonsense, but In my eyes it's murder! The baby is alive from the very beginning.

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Manticore Night
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Posted: 20th Jul 2006 01:56
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Quote: "It's their own fault."
Not it's rape or if they were tricked (some are pretty stupid).

Lets get past all of this nonsense and pose the real question:

What is your opinion on Visible Minority Stem Cel reasearching Gay Abortion?

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Cash Curtis II
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Posted: 20th Jul 2006 04:19
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Well, we're all talking about important, but very boring, social issues here. The only social issue that matters is how much Megaton will drink when he's in the U.S., or how many of our women he'll kidnap and smuggle into Canada




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TDP Enterprises
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Posted: 20th Jul 2006 05:07
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Quote: "or how many of our women he'll kidnap and smuggle into Canada"
and vice versa

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Matt Rock
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Posted: 20th Jul 2006 06:37
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Quote: "Riiiight, by quoting CNN? Nice."

And they're biased toward whom? I must've missed something

Quote: "Dude, stop saying it's only religious people that are against it. You are about as knowledgeable as a tree who only sees the world from his little park. I know many people who are against gay marriage and are not religious--- learn to separate fact from fiction.
"

Okay Mr. Flamey pants, explain to me then why ANYONE would be opposed to gay marriage who isn't being driven by the Christian Right. Please? Give me ONE reason why ANYONE would be opposed to gay marriage that can't be directly tied to religious beliefs. Humor me. Please? I've never heard any excuse... ever... that wasn't related directly to religion. And I've never heard any logical reason as to why gay marriage should be banned. If you give me a reason that isn't related to religion (hence logical), I'll be flippin' surprised.

Quote: "You are. Stem Cell research and Abortion have nothing to do with Christianity, there Ethically wrong."

And you call ME narrow-minded. Explain to me why a young girl who gets raped by some psycho should be forced to give birth to and raise a kid? Why they should go through all of the pain and hardship involved in carrying a baby and giving birth so they can give it up for adoption, while having to pay out the rear-end in medical expenses that the government won't pay for. If you think abortion is wrong in such a case, then you think rape is fine. And if you don't appreciate my logic, too bad, because I have absolutely no respect OR tolerance for your sickening views on what OTHER PEOPLE DO WITH THEIR BODIES. You may not realize this, but most young women are pretty easily fooled into having sex. So are guys, but guys don't get pregnant so it's not their problem. You anti-abortion people call ME rediculous... you've got some friggin' nerve, don't ya. And stem cells? Oh, forget curing Cancer or Aids or any number of disabling diseases because someone's fetus (before it's even the size of a hair follicle) is far too valuable. It hasn't developed a brain or any organs, but noooo, let's not destroy it to save millions of lives, who could think of such a thing?


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Oddmind
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Posted: 20th Jul 2006 06:41
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god dammit man I hate reading those long posts... in fact I didn't in this thread...

like go on and post and everything just know that most people dont read that crap.

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Cash Curtis II
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Posted: 20th Jul 2006 06:53
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Matt Rock, come on. These heated social issues won't get resolved here. People believe what they believe. Your posts are too long, btw. Like, one huge block of angry opinion.


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Manticore Night
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Posted: 20th Jul 2006 08:10 Edited at: 20th Jul 2006 08:10
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Quote: "Like, one huge block of angry opinion. "
That sounds like catch phrase for a porno flick.

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Hobgoblin Lord
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Posted: 20th Jul 2006 10:18
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Quote: "Give me ONE reason why ANYONE would be opposed to gay marriage that can't be directly tied to religious beliefs. "


Now I can't state this as fact but I would think Fear, people fear things that are considered outside the norm or that they do not understand. This fear need not come from religious beliefs but from a lack of understanding. Also the Bandwagon effect, some people regardless of their beliefs, education, upbringing, whatever, have no opinions of their own, "others say it is wrong so it must be wrong". We have grown a society of these lemmings who believe anything their favorite pop star, sports hero, or movie director say without gathering the available information and drawing their own conclusions.

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Cash Curtis II
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Posted: 20th Jul 2006 10:26
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It would very likely raise health insurance costs. My sister in law is a lesbian, and a nurse, so we've talked about all the pros and cons. The issue happens to be the gay men, among whom STDs are quite common. I don't care because I have full health coverage for the rest of my life, but most people have to pay for it.

Now, I've given one concrete, real reason that some people are opposed to gay marraige. I personally don't care. They can hop in a big Gay Blimp, fly around the cities getting married, have a big gay party and throw gay confetti down to America. Who cares?

Social issues can't get fixed here. All that happens is people get angry.


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Les Horribres
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Posted: 20th Jul 2006 20:37 Edited at: 20th Jul 2006 20:38
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Quote: "Give me ONE reason why ANYONE would be opposed to gay marriage that can't be directly tied to religious beliefs."

Because allowing homosexual marrage is saying "okay, I give, I won't beat the crap out of you for being homosexual, I won't threaten to castrate you, I won't make fun of you. I won't do these things because now I admit that people ARE homosexual, that a good minority of the population is turning to homosexuality and that we will have to admit that it is not as abnormal as it may have been before."

They simply don't want to admit that homosexuals exist.


Now why would America go for this? The same reason that we went to war over nuclear weapons that do not exist. Cause we are blindly following a leader, a role model, and we don't give a crap about the consequences.

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code master
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Posted: 20th Jul 2006 20:43
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Because being Gay is not natural. Look at the anatomy... Eh?



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Les Horribres
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Posted: 20th Jul 2006 20:51
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Being homosexual is a natural response to an immensely over populated world.

Besides, the men have a hole and a stick... the women... well...
Quote: "two holes is better then one, any mouse will tell you that"


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UnderLord
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Posted: 20th Jul 2006 21:04
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Quote: " Being homosexual is a natural response to an immensely over populated world."


Agreed

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Jeku
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Posted: 20th Jul 2006 23:00
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And that is exactly why I called Matt narrow-minded.

Not really harsh is it? I don't like to offend, but I hate when people have these flaming opinions on things as if they are the only ones who have a valid opinion. They rehash the same old liberal lines they heard the night before from John Stewart without using their own talent of logical thought.

Oh well


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Matt Rock
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Posted: 20th Jul 2006 23:37
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Quote: "It would very likely raise health insurance costs."

For gay people, sure, I can see that. But how does it raise insurance costs for the rest of us? How much of the population is gay? about 10%? And of that 10%, 2% of them might (maybe and hopefully not) get STDs, right? So we're talking about 2% of the population raising insurance premiums for the other 98%... plausible, but not very likely I think.

Quote: "Because allowing homosexual marrage is saying "okay, I give, I won't beat the crap out of you for being homosexual, I won't threaten to castrate you, I won't make fun of you. I won't do these things because now I admit that people ARE homosexual, that a good minority of the population is turning to homosexuality and that we will have to admit that it is not as abnormal as it may have been before.""

That's pretty much exactly what I've been saying, or at least trying to say.

Quote: "Because being Gay is not natural. Look at the anatomy... Eh?"

Interesting fact... there have been cases of "gay animals" in the past, throughout as many as 450+ species according to this article. Like the infamous "gay penguins" that sparked a massive debate on our local news (and I assume the national news as well). It isn't natural, yet it happens all throughout nature?

Quote: "Not really harsh is it? I don't like to offend, but I hate when people have these flaming opinions on things as if they are the only ones who have a valid opinion. They rehash the same old liberal lines they heard the night before from John Stewart without using their own talent of logical thought."

First of all, Jon Stewart hasn't really spent any serious time on the subject, secondly, no, I'm not "rehashing old liberal lines." When you argue for less gun control can I tell you that you're "rehashing old conservative lines?" Or better yet, would I? Actually, I got really argumentative about this topic back in college, when this guy Mark wore a "straight pride" T-shirt on gay pride day, and it infuriated me. I have a valid opinion, just as valid as yours or anyone else's on here. My parents were (and are) extremely liberal, especially my mom, and that's where I got it from. If your parents were liberal, you'd be liberal too. It's not like you're born Christian... you're *raised* christian and that's the main reason why people today are christian. Yet again... I could argue that the sky was blue, and everyone would say it was red just for the chance to duke it out with me I'm still waiting for that one to heat up one of these days, and you wait and see, I'm sure it will.

btw Jeku, you said:
Quote: "I know many people who are against gay marriage"

So in a sense you helped me with the earliest portion of this debate, that most people oppose gay marriage. And no, it's not "narrow minded" to say that opposing gay marriage is the same as opposing homosexuality itself. That's like saying "just because someone is pro-segregation and has a confederate flag bumper sticker, it doesn't mean they hate black people." Gay people should have the same rights and should be treated equally in our society and in our culture as straight people. Why should I be allowed to marry my girlfriend and gay people shouldn't be allowed to marry each other? What makes me, or you, or any of us better than them? Those of you opposed to gay marriage have flawed logic and have yet to prove to me otherwise.


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Jeku
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Posted: 20th Jul 2006 23:58 Edited at: 21st Jul 2006 00:00
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Okay, I just caught you twisting my words red-handed.

Quote: "And no, it's not "narrow minded" to say that opposing gay marriage is the same as opposing homosexuality itself."


You said people who oppose gay marriage are religious only. I didn't say ANYTHING about opposing gay marriage and homosexuality. Dude, you're really ticking me off with this.

Quote: "when this guy Mark wore a "straight pride" T-shirt on gay pride day, and it infuriated me"


Why would that infuriate you? If you're for freedom of speech (which I hope you are), then you'll support Mark in his endeavours to be straight and proud.

Quote: "Those of you opposed to gay marriage have flawed logic and have yet to prove to me otherwise."


And again, rofl. I didn't say that I was against gay marriage. I'm just arguing that it's not only religious zealots that oppose it. You're the one who is twisting my words around.


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code master
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Posted: 21st Jul 2006 00:09
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Quote: "not like you're born Christian... you're *raised* christian and that's the main reason why people today are christian."


Uhuh. The reason is that they're brought up Christian, then, later in life, they realize that Christianity is right, and they become Christains. Unfourtunetaly, not all do...

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Matt Rock
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Posted: 21st Jul 2006 00:59 Edited at: 21st Jul 2006 01:09
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Quote: "You said people who oppose gay marriage are religious only. I didn't say ANYTHING about opposing gay marriage and homosexuality. Dude, you're really ticking me off with this."

And what does that have to do with:
Quote: "And no, it's not "narrow minded" to say that opposing gay marriage is the same as opposing homosexuality itself."

I don't understand where you're making this connection. A bunch of people said that I was wrong in saying that.

Quote: "Why would that infuriate you? If you're for freedom of speech (which I hope you are), then you'll support Mark in his endeavours to be straight and proud."
Oh, I dunno, maybe because he NEVER wore it ANY OTHER DAY of the year except on Gay Pride day, and he didn't wear it out of straight "pride" as much as he did to intentionally insult the gay students who were trying to speak out against people like him? Maybe THAT would be why I think it was absolutely disgusting and tasteless? If he was wearing a white power t-shirt on Martin Luther King Day and I complained would you stick up for his 1st ammendment rights then? Sorry, but some people take advantage and manipulate the 1st ammendment to insult others and that's disgusting.

Quote: "Uhuh. The reason is that they're brought up Christian, then, later in life, they realize that Christianity is right, and they become Christains. Unfourtunetaly, not all do..."

Won't... take... bait... must... fight... urge... to... slam...

Sorry, can't help it. WRONG! You're born to christian parents. They take you to church and fill your head with christian beliefs and teach you from day one that it's wrong to believe in any other god. This is called "brainwashing." I'm not saying christians are wrong or evil or anything, I'm just saying that you aren't really given a fair chance to make up your own mind. If you were raised without religion and it wasn't force-fed to you, if you grew up on an island without access to the bible and somehow magically you'd never heard of christianity, guess what? You'd say "hmm, they all believe in an invisible man in the sky because a 3,500 year old book tells them that's how it is? With no tangeable proof? And they call ME crazy for liking coconut this much? Maybe I should go back to my island!" You're born to christian parents, they tell you "that's how it was" a million times, and that is what makes you christian. When you grow up, you don't make any decisions about religion. Did you honestly compare science and religion? Did you take into account all of the archeological evidence that says the bible is false and the small bit of evidence that says *some parts* of it really happened? Did you seriously ponder over the historical relevance of the bible and the impact it had on ancient civilization and how they functioned in day-to-day life and did you wonder if maybe, perhaps it was written to help govern ancient peoples? If you did, and you decided Christianity was the right way to go, then good for you, if you didn't, then you didn't "decide" anything. If you want to be christian or believe in any other religion, then by all means, please do, who am I to stop you or tell you you're wrong. But don't act like it was a concious "decision" you made of your own free will.


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Hobgoblin Lord
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Posted: 21st Jul 2006 01:03 Edited at: 21st Jul 2006 01:08
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Quote: "If your parents were liberal, you'd be liberal too. "

Actually this is generally quite opposite, many teens look for a way to rebel against their parents, and political views is one of the most taken roads. A rash of super conservatives during the crewcut, IBM dressing, straightlaced 50's led to the massively liberal hippies of the 60's. Look at the surge of Agnostic and Atheistic beliefs in the past few decades, a very large amount of these people were raised by religious families and have chosen otherwise now.

Quote: "For gay people, sure, I can see that. But how does it raise insurance costs for the rest of us? "


Matt here you are fooling yourself if you think the insurance companies will not pass additional costs to everyone, especially since they would never be allowed to set seperate rates depending on the applicant being straight or gay (how quick would that be in court). Yes absolutely this would increase health insurance rates. Of course on the other side of this I am pretty sure lesbian couples would have a much lower rate of STD's then most, but face the facts that when the insurance companies find an excuse to bend us over, they do.

Quote: "Uhuh. The reason is that they're brought up Christian, then, later in life, they realize that Christianity is right, and they become Christains. Unfourtunetaly, not all do... "


Codemaster please don't make statements like this, your religious choice is no more right then anyone elses on the planet and statements like this can lead to a huge flame war I don't want to see.

Quote: "Why would that infuriate you? If you're for freedom of speech (which I hope you are), then you'll support Mark in his endeavours to be straight and proud."


Have to agree with Jeku here, Mark has every right to be proud of being straight, tall, fat, short, bald, whatever. Would you have had a problem with a Gay Pride shirt at a straight rally? No I would hope since it is the sort of right our country is founded on.


Quote: "I could argue that the sky was blue"


What!!! Oh you are so wrong. let me go into fine details about how wrong you are. JK though I believe it is not actually blue

Quote: "Because being Gay is not natural. Look at the anatomy... Eh? "

Wish I could answer this one, however since I did not create the universe, nor did I get a glimpse at the blueprints, I can not tell you what is and is not natural. When did we become the judges of the natural order of things?

MATT: your response to this is good, however males of many species forcibly take mates so are we then saying rape is natural and should be allowed?


EDITED for additional post

Quote: "Oh, I dunno, maybe because he NEVER wore it ANY OTHER DAY of the year except on Gay Pride day, and he didn't wear it out of straight "pride" as much as he did to intentionally insult the gay students who were trying to speak out against people like him? Maybe THAT would be why I think it was absolutely disgusting and tasteless? If he was wearing a white power t-shirt on Martin Luther King Day and I complained would you stick up for his 1st ammendment rights then? Sorry, but some people take advantage and manipulate the 1st ammendment to insult others and that's disgusting."


Matt it's called a protest, whatever his reasons were, no matter how hateful and spiteful it is his choice and his right. And as much as I would despise the white power shirt it is still his right.

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Matt Rock
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Posted: 21st Jul 2006 01:17
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Quote: "many teens look for a way to rebel against their parents, and political views is one of the most taken roads. A rash of super conservatives during the crewcut, IBM dressing, straightlaced 50's led to the massively liberal hippies of the 60's. Look at the surge of Agnostic and Atheistic beliefs in the past few decades, a very large amount of these people were raised by religious families and have chosen otherwise now."

Good point. But it still does occur rather frequently. Some kids don't rebel, and those are the kids who grow up to be like their parents, and while their numbers are dwindling (MTV ) I'm sure there's lots of people who still think that way. I'm sure Bill O'Reilly didn't wake up one morning and say "forget my liberal parents! War on christmas, gays are evil, Bush is a great leader!"

Quote: "when the insurance companies find an excuse to bend us over, they do."

Very true, and it's better that you pointed it out than me... no one needs another corporate greed arguement from me

Quote: "Would you have had a problem with a Gay Pride shirt at a straight rally? No I would hope since it is the sort of right our country is founded on."

I would have a problem with the straight pride rally itself. What better way to bash gays than with a straight pride rally Do I think the Ku Klux Klan should have the right to do what they do or preach what they preach? No way.

Quote: "What!!! Oh you are so wrong. let me go into fine details about how wrong you are. JK though I believe it is not actually blue"

Don't EVEN go there! The sky is blue and I can prove it!!!


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Jeku
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Posted: 21st Jul 2006 01:54
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Argh Matt--- just admit when you're wrong to twist my words up.

Quote: "I'm just saying that you aren't really given a fair chance to make up your own mind."


So you're saying this for all religions? Muslim, buddhism, christianity, jews, etc.? Wow--- so that's the problem! Matt has solved it! All religious people are brain-washed by their parents! Wow. Just... wow. So being brainwashed into a hedonistic, secular lifestyle by one's parents doesn't count?

Or all those Christian converts, who were raised atheist or through another religion--- are they brainwashed too? Rofl.

Quote: "Do I think the Ku Klux Klan should have the right to do what they do or preach what they preach? No way."


They have the right to preach what they preach, and to march in public (in the US anyways). That is their constitutional right-- hell I know that and I'm not even an American.


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Saikoro
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Posted: 21st Jul 2006 14:19
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Quote: "Matt here you are fooling yourself if you think the insurance companies will not pass additional costs to everyone, especially since they would never be allowed to set seperate rates depending on the applicant being straight or gay (how quick would that be in court)."

But because I am a male, I have to pay more for my auto insurance costs than a female my same age, driving skill, and driving record.


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Posted: 21st Jul 2006 14:26
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Snow Wars is making its return, check out the Game Design Theory board for more info...
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Hobgoblin Lord
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Posted: 21st Jul 2006 20:03
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Quote: "But because I am a male, I have to pay more for my auto insurance costs than a female my same age, driving skill, and driving record."


Oh how true! that is always the one thing they can get away with, charging a male more for something like this. If however they tried to charge more for women you can bet some feminist group would be all over "breaking stereotypes of women being bad drivers" or "men don't want us to be equal so we get charged more". Also any minority group would have a field day with discrimination lawsuits if they could prove they were being singled out, and the same would go for rates based on sexual orientation. Courts with no doubt would rule this practice discriminatory and award some ridiculous cash award here.

SO the bottom line is if your a guy your screwed, because its fine to mess with the generic male. If your a straight white guy forget about ever complaining about discrimination, no one will listen no matter how real it is.

Quote: "I would have a problem with the straight pride rally itself. What better way to bash gays than with a straight pride rally Do I think the Ku Klux Klan should have the right to do what they do or preach what they preach? No way."


How is straight pride any more insulting to a gay person then gay pride would be to a straight person, or are you saying there is something wrong with being gay and they need to be sheltered so no one hurts their feelings?

The KKK, in my opinion, is an evil, festering boil on the Earth's a$$. That being my opinion (and I am sure alot of people share it) they have every right stage any protest or rally; publish any literature, and have any belief they want. So does any other group, If I feel strongly enough my option is to form a counter group and hold my own rallys etc. etc.

So why should the KKK be silenced and the Gay Pride message be fine? Answer... It's not, we all have equal rights to pass on our message to everyone else in the country, and it is up to the listener to accept or reject the idea, not up to us to stop the message in the first place.

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Izzy545
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Posted: 21st Jul 2006 20:15
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Quote: "I would have a problem with the straight pride rally itself. What better way to bash gays than with a straight pride rally."


Hey, it goes both ways bud. If that's your mentality then aren't gays bashing straights by having a gay pride rally? Having a gay pride rally is as bad as having a white power rally isn't it? This seems to be your reasoning except you're pointing it in the opposite direction.

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Sid Sinister
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Posted: 21st Jul 2006 20:32
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