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Geek Culture / A sense of ownership question - please get involved

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Richard Davey
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Posted: 26th Sep 2006 12:39 Edited at: 26th Sep 2006 14:06
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Hi all,

TGC are interested in your comments on the following questions:

1) Do you feel there is a 'sense of ownership' in having to pay for a product vs. getting it for free?

2) Does this 'ownership' make you feel any more or less loyal to a brand, or do you find there is a price point below which it doesn't make any difference?

3) Would a 'tiered product' structure appeal? Taking DarkBASIC as an example - a free version could offer you the core basics for game making, but all games have a pop-up screen at the end. A 'bronze' version does away with this. A 'silver' version adds in lots more 3D functions / features, perhaps shader support. A 'gold' version allows commercial release of your games, plus various other features (these are all just hasty examples, but I hope you get the idea) - does this alienate or interest you?

Let me put this into context for you (please note all ideas below are purely for explanation of the above)

If TGC had released the our core products for free (DarkBASIC Professional, FPS Creator, etc) - would it have made any real significant difference to you?

Do you find that just downloading something for free off a website devalues that product, or would it actually encourage you to explore it further?

If you had the core product for free, would you then be willing to pay for expansion or model packs? For example we see a lot of people complain that because they paid for product X, they should get Y and Z and all future updates for free. How would you feel about that being reversed?

Or perhaps the price of the product forced you to pirate it anyway? In which case was it the price alone that made this happen?

If there is a price point under which an item no longer holds much real value for you i.e. you'd consider it 'disposable', what is that? This will obviously vary dramatically depending on your personal circumstances.

Your comments are encouraged and may wel influence how we approach future releases. Feel free to give examples (even of other products) where this has or hasn't worked for you.

Cheers,

Rich

"Bite my shiny metal ass" (Futurama)
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Kentaree
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Posted: 26th Sep 2006 12:53
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Personally, it would make products easier to acquire seeing as I'm not the richest person around by any means
I do think you'd create a broader playingfield for your products, but I also think you could be shooting yourself in the foot. While you have some impressive expansion packs, such as Darkphysics, most of this is at least some way possibly through the use of external libraries such as newton and stuff like that. Now assuming that the average user base of your products is between 12-24-ish, I'd think a lot of people are more likely to go for a cheaper of free alternative, so while not only expansion pack sales mightnt grow hugely, you'd lose the income from the main products

Nephin Games
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OSX Using Happy Dude
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Posted: 26th Sep 2006 12:55
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Quote: "1) Do you feel there is a 'sense of ownership' in having to pay for a product vs. getting it for free?"

Its not specific to paid products - for example when I was trialing Live Linux's, I felt I owned them. Same goes for other free software (SuperTux, Pingus etc).

Quote: "Does this 'ownership' make you feel any more or less loyal to a brand, or do you find there is a price point below which it doesn't make any difference?"

I think software brand loyalty only works with very high valued items (3D Max Studio for example).

Wibble
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Richard Davey
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Posted: 26th Sep 2006 13:13
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Thanks for your comments guys - please don't worry about the money aspect too much (as in our income), just focus on it from your point of view.

Kentaree - I'm more interested to know if you would value one of our products any more/less depending on if you paid for it or not?

Nick - Your product valuation comment is interesting, and what I suspected - you'd only care because of the price you paid for them, not because of what they are. So for you, the cost of a bit of software is directly relational to how much you personally value it. As if the more money you invested, the more determined you are to remain loyal / study that title?

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Lukas W
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Posted: 26th Sep 2006 13:19
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i've never thought about it this way.

Say DBPro was free, how many would then buy expansion packs?
i wouldn't. unless it had something to do with something i really wanted to accomplish but never got it to work.

for example the only reason why i bought "Extends" was because i could NEVER get the real time sky to work how i wanted it to.

but i think that releasing the core product for free would be a major mistake. if i wanted to start programming today, ofcorse i would think that this would be great, but then i would start wonder: is this language really that great, when i have to buy upgrades?

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Kentaree
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Posted: 26th Sep 2006 13:20
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Hmm, I do think I'd value it more if I paid for it, it's so much easier to discard something if it's free

Nephin Games
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OSX Using Happy Dude
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Posted: 26th Sep 2006 13:22
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Quote: "As if the more money you invested, the more determined you are to remain loyal / study that title?"

Indeed - the higher the cost, the bigger the chance of increased loyalty...

Wibble
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Cash Curtis II
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Posted: 26th Sep 2006 13:30
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The money that I paid does make all of this more substantial. During my search for a programming language, I actually ignored free engines, because I'd rather pay for a complete and supported engine than waste my time with a well intentioned but inadequate one. And, having paid for everything, I'll not simply spontaneously disregard it, because it represents an investment to me.

I feel that each and everything I've bought from TGC was more than worth the money. For a small bit of money I gain the ability to add commercial-esque features to my game without having to program it myself. It's almost like having a programming team working for me.

So, I paid money for software that I saw to be worth the money I paid for it. And, because I paid for it, it has more value than a free programming language. At this point, I wouldn't give a free engine the time of day. All I am concerned with is getting the most from my investment. This, combined with this community, has made me very loyal to Dark Basic. I just don't like the name


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Jeff Miller
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Posted: 26th Sep 2006 13:33
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I get no sense of "ownership" of any software product that I purchase, including software considerably more expensive that TGC products, or for that matter any software available for free. A sense of ownership generally attaches to tangible products that other people will see, such as a suit of clothes or a car. It is only when I develop my own software that I feel a sense of ownership of the software. Ownership seems to go hand in hand with control.

I develop brand loyalty in software products from performance of the software and from support. In the realm of products priced at where TGC appears in the market, I think the brand loyalty springs more from a sense of pulling for the individuals involved in TGC and the continued existence of the community than anything else.

I also don't think that the age range of most TGC product users quoted above forces any particular price point. TGC products are discretionary spending, and that age group engages in plenty of it. It's been my experience that as you age you tone it down in some respects, but have a bit more of a base to spend from, and so the actual amount you spend tends to be about the same although as a percentage of your income or wealth it drops. I spend no more or less on the hobby than those in that majority group, and I happen to be a gray-haired old man with no teeth and living in a retirement community.
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BatVink
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Posted: 26th Sep 2006 13:44
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It's all relative...

I have the free JDK from Sun, and I value it because of the reputation that Sun has.

I have paid for products that I never use again. It may have issues, and because of the reputation (or lack of reputation) of the company, I rghtly or wrongly assume a fix isn't going to happen.

I have paid for products where I have a good relationship with the makers. For example, the DB Pro team is accessible. That adds value to the product. In a free distribution model, that access, among other things, is inevitably diluted, and dilutes the value of the product with it.


So for me, it's not the cost of the product, but what the full package contains. Is it stable? Can I have it made stable? What do I get aside from the product? Is the company going to be here in 3 years?

Paying for a product and becoming part of a more exclusive set of users gives you a whole lot more than a CD and a manual.



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Lost in Thought
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Posted: 26th Sep 2006 13:50
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Quote: "The money that I paid does make all of this more substantial. During my search for a programming language, I actually ignored free engines, because I'd rather pay for a complete and supported engine than waste my time with a well intentioned but inadequate one. And, having paid for everything, I'll not simply spontaneously disregard it, because it represents an investment to me.

I feel that each and everything I've bought from TGC was more than worth the money. For a small bit of money I gain the ability to add commercial-esque features to my game without having to program it myself. It's almost like having a programming team working for me.

So, I paid money for software that I saw to be worth the money I paid for it. And, because I paid for it, it has more value than a free programming language. At this point, I wouldn't give a free engine the time of day."


That pretty much sums it up for me as well. Uncanny really

However, as far as the giving away the core language and selling the packs ... it depends on the stability and speed of the core. For instance DBP ... if it had a new 3d pipeline programmed in from the ground up (efficient), a better error trapping system, a better debugger and it was given away for free. You could sell the packs and I would buy them and not think of DBP (the big picture) as being anything less than I paid for it now as I would still be buying most of it in the form of packs. I now have most (soon to be all) of the expansion packs you sell. And I totally love them (with the exception of the limitations on the Dark Physics pack which could have a lot of work done to it). As long as the company is selling alot of stuff related to the free product I don't feel the looking over free stuff rule applies. As they obviously have enough confidence in it to think they can sell upgrades for it.

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dark coder
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Posted: 26th Sep 2006 13:51
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I think that if you had released dbc/dbp free from day 1, then I probably woulden't be here today, as being free it indicates that the product/support will be lacking, and will likely be made by 1-2 people(though dbp was :p) and they likely wouldent have time to support it, and should I come across bugs and what not they probably woulden't be fixed, by adding a price tag(which isnt too low nor too high) it makes the user belive that the creators are focusing on the product and your paying for more than just the product.

Same with irrilicht/gimp etc, iv'e tried them for fun but I woulden't consider actually using them, for 1 they both seem a bit... crap compared to the other ones with a price tag, thus making me belive that anything for free is likely free for a reason,

And I've seen products that are free/cheap and they usually have 1001 plugins which all cost money, and I think thats a very bad way to attract customers and I woulden't go near them, The best way to sell products such as plugins for dbp maybe to sell them at a fairly cheap price, maybe 10-20$ ish, but have a raised price for perhaps more advanced features that casual users woulden't need, or have a elevated price for a commercial version.

For instance, Dark physics, which is 60$? is quite alot for a plugin, and as such not so many people have got it straight away, and I've heard many posts about people saying they don't have the cash to buy it, and I personally woulden't have got it, if it weren't for the compo, providing a free demo that does some basic stuff like rigid bodys, would allow users to see how effective it is, and get used to the workflow, which is hard to do when just reading peoples source code/demos.

Which brings me to another point, I think that tgc should either make games or hire people to make them, to show off dbp`s abilities(or wait 50 years for a finished project), every week or so there's a new topic with someone who is new to dbp, and the first thing they ask is what kind of games have been made with dbp, in the perfect world this shouldent be a question as they should already know, and thus came to this community because of that.

I personally only bought DBC, because the games(on the back of the box :p) looked pretty cool, and if I could make something like that then I would be damn happy, and I had allways wanted to make games since I love playing them.

Hallowed are the ori.
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Tinkergirl
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Posted: 26th Sep 2006 14:00
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I definitely find there is a price I'm willing to pay for something, and I have a feeling for that price before I go out looking for the item.

For example - a programming language that I can make small games with, and which removes the need for me to deal with scary DirectX or C++ directly - but may have a few bugs and be a bit clunky and understandably limited in comparison to C++ - I'd happily pay somewhere in the region of ยฃ20 - ยฃ40 for. That's about 3-5 trips to the cinema (taking into account hotdogs and drinks). Generally, I rate things in how many cinema trips it costs. If I think I'll get more use out of it, than that many trips to the cinema, then it's usually good value

As for 'free engine - bought expansions' - I'm afraid you'd lose me twice. Once because I'd be put off by a core engine that I'd believe would never get it's bugs fixed, and twice because I don't buy expansions, and have never needed them. Generally I'm not one for micropayments either, so paying 50p for an extra command (or something) wouldn't appeal to me either.

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Richard Davey
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Posted: 26th Sep 2006 14:00
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Quote: "A sense of ownership generally attaches to tangible products that other people will see,"


Jeff - I do wonder if the above is related to age? For me personally (I'm 31) I feel a sense of ownership over say my classic computing magazine collection, yet no-one else ever sees it When I buy software online I nearly always however go for the 'download only' option, and rarely bother with CDs or printed manuals. I still feel like I 'own' them though.

Perhaps I should have phrased it - 'at what price do you feel a sense of investment that you're not willing to give up easily?'

Lost in Thought - A lot of companies charge for every single update they release, or (more commonly) you pay for the product + 1 years worth of upgrades, and beyond that you need to pay again. This is very common practise as I'm sure you are aware. Personally I'm against it, I loathe the fact that I'm having to pay for a fix to something they didn't code correctly in the first place. But if that could be split-out.. so you only paid for ENHANCEMENTS, and never for a 'bug fix', does that change any attitudes of people reading this?

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Richard Davey
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Posted: 26th Sep 2006 14:04
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Quote: "And I've seen products that are free/cheap and they usually have 1001 plugins which all cost money"


Yes this reminds me - how many people here took up the free Poser 5 or Bryce 5 offers that were running the past few months? They gave the core product out for free in the hope that you'd then buy into their content subscription / content sales.

Did you?

Quote: "The best way to sell products such as plugins for dbp maybe to sell them at a fairly cheap price, maybe 10-20$ ish, but have a raised price for perhaps more advanced features that casual users woulden't need, or have a elevated price for a commercial version."


Ok this is a very interesting idea.. I will edit my first article in this thread, please re-read it to see my changes and comment on it if you could, thank you.

"Bite my shiny metal ass" (Futurama)
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BatVink
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Posted: 26th Sep 2006 14:12 Edited at: 26th Sep 2006 14:20
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Quote: "3) Would a 'tiered product' structure appeal?"


Absolutely not!!! That would put me off 100%, as it creates an elitist attitude. I like the fact that I can dwell on the same plain as newbies and hardened coders alike, and discuss the same issues, ideas and problems.

Take a look at how confusing Newcomers Corner is, if the product isn't specified. Now imagine how much worse that would be with a tiered DBP. 99% of answers would be "You need to upgrade".

Quote: "Generally, I rate things in how many cinema trips it costs"

I work in a similar way, but working on how much my time is worth. If I had to do something time-consuming, and not particularly stimulating, then it's worth it for me to buy somebody else's hard-work.



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BatVink
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Posted: 26th Sep 2006 14:27
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Quote: "A lot of companies charge for every single update they release, or (more commonly) you pay for the product + 1 years worth of upgrades, and beyond that you need to pay again"


Thats what keeps me in a job! Maintenance contracts are there to make the customer pay for what never worked in the first place. And new functionality is never free.



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dark coder
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Posted: 26th Sep 2006 14:48
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Quote: "3) Would a 'tiered product' structure appeal? Taking DarkBASIC as an example - a free version could offer you the core basics for game making, but all games have a pop-up screen at the end. A 'bronze' version does away with this. A 'silver' version adds in lots more 3D functions / features, perhaps shader support. A 'gold' version allows commercial release of your games, plus various other features (these are all just hasty examples, but I hope you get the idea) - does this alienate or interest you?"


I agree with BatVink, what I meant was, have a demo version which essentially is the first teir, 2nd would be the full product and 3rd would be a commercial license, because as I understand it, ageia didn't want a full demo out of dp, and I'm sure tgc feel the same way as it makes huge secuity holes, however having a simple teaser version would be pretty cool, like for dark ai for example, if you released a version that perhaps only supported 4 ai players at a time, then anyone could play around with the commands and see if the plugin is for them, same could be done with almost any plugin and it would be effective imo, as programming plugins isn't the sort of place where you can just make a demo with 1 level or show a video of it in action, as users woulden't know how hard/easy the proccess of acieving the results were, and applying the same demo idea to a plugin would be the best method imo.

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Richard Davey
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Posted: 26th Sep 2006 15:01
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Quote: "have a demo version which essentially is the first teir"


In my example tier though the 'demo version' would be the full thing, just crippled in some way.

If you look at Mark Overmars 'Game Maker' the thing is effectively free of charge, except you can pay to remove the logo and gain extra features (rotated sprites, etc etc). If you look at his forums you'll see 36,000 registered users and a very healthy community.

Surely the base product being free, and this sort of 'success' is no coincidence? Not that forum registrations are worth anything to us as a company, but it's a good indicator to go from.

There is also the new Windows XNA editor, again the base version is free (and they've seen millions of downloads of it), with a subscription like service to access the 'extras' (community, 360 integration, etc).

Maya etc now have 'Personal Learning' versions, where you get to use the whole thing for free, albeit watermarked. Then you can pay to buy the full package.

Daz released Poser 5 and Bryce 5 for free (for a limited time) in order to suck people into buying their 3D content.

So perhaps with these examples you can see where I am coming from in wanting to discuss what you all think of these strategies? It's not like they are rare these days. I just wondered if you all thought the 'priced' vs. 'free' factor still held any weight.

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Philip
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Posted: 26th Sep 2006 15:02 Edited at: 26th Sep 2006 15:06
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My attitude is always that you get what you pay for. If you get something for free, there is no sense of "ownership" (as you put it) and the product is usually highly disposable. Also, you tend to expect the product not to be of high quality.

If you pay for something, your expectations of it (in particular its quality and utility) rise in proportion to its perceived value.

As for branding, this is a more interesting question. Branding effectively means "goodwill" as an accountant would refer to it on a balance sheet. In my mind TGC's "brand" has a reasonable value associated with it, although it comes complete with some question marks too. Let me explain why.

On the positive side, I like the idea of TGC as a small entrepreneurial British company. I also like and admire the products TGC makes. I've met many of the TGC team such as Lee and Mike and I think that they are top blokes. I'm therefore keen to support TGC and their commercial endeavours. I also like what you (Rich) do to support the community - the newsletter and the forums are the two most important examples. The forums in particular have created a very significant community spirit which in turn reflects well on the TGC brand. In fact, I'd put a significant value on the forums all by themselves.

On the negative side, I do get a bit frustrated with the approach towards core products. For example, I've felt that over the years I've been a member, more should have been done earlier to get DBPro into the state it is in now. Therefore, if a brand new version of a DBPro-esq language was released for Vista, for example, even though I'm a supporter of TGC, I'd have to think long and hard about whether to buy it just because I'd fear many years of only occasional bug weeks. I'd actually pay MORE money for the language in exchange for some assurance that the language would be keep under more regular supervision. In saying these negative remarks, obviously I appreciate that TGC is not Microsoft and does not have Microsoft-esq resources. But I do feel that sometimes Lee lets his attention wander a bit.

I have no thoughts either way on tiered products. I am personally happy to pay for enhancements to a product providing I actually want those enhancements. I would never pay for bug fixes.

I hope these thoughts are helpful.

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Jeff Miller
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Posted: 26th Sep 2006 15:28
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Hmm. The way you re-state it, Richard, is interesting - at what price do I think a product worth the investment that I would not readily give up? As I think of my own purchasing habits, it seems to relate more to my investment in time than a particular price. In that sense I regard DBPro, e.g., as quite valuable. I have also noticed several inquiries in the forum by people thinking of purchasing it and inquiring of its benefit, and I see many replies that point out that it is a real time saver as opposed to struggling with C++ programming. Likewise, having been buying personal software products since there first was such a thing, I have found that the amount of time that I spend learning to use them and creating things with them that I am satisfied with becomes a time investment that I am unwilling to give up easily. I always want the benefit of what I have already done, so as to not have to re-invent the solution to a task, much the way many forum members carefully develop and save libraries of code samples and algorithms.

I know you are trying to glean information which would be helpful in setting prices, and I'm sorry I can't be of much help. The price is really not relevant even if quadrupled given the time investment.

Regarding the age data on users, I'm curious as to how it is gathered. Signing up for the forums, I think, entails stating only whether or not one is or is not 13+, which doesn't seem to provide much data. I know there are sensitivities on posting one's age in the forum. However, I think that most forum members trust TGC itself, and you might be able to gather user data from posting a form and having the various users email it back to TGC, and post only the summary results.
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indi
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Posted: 26th Sep 2006 15:41
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1) Do you feel there is a 'sense of ownership' in having to pay for a product vs. getting it for free?

Quote: "there certainly is, especially when it costs a few thousand dollars and brings your customers a sense of wonder and awe in what it can produce. A smaller cost product can do exactly the same thing, your talking about the POTENTIAL of the product here. DB has oodles of that. "


2) Does this 'ownership' make you feel any more or less loyal to a brand, or do you find there is a price point below which it doesn't make any difference?

Quote: " loyalty is aside from ownership, some designers hate shop all day, some are not bothered, some are advocates."


3) Would a 'tiered product' structure appeal? Taking DarkBASIC as an example - a free version could offer you the core basics for game making, but all games have a pop-up screen at the end. A 'bronze' version does away with this. A 'silver' version adds in lots more 3D functions / features, perhaps shader support. A 'gold' version allows commercial release of your games, plus various other features (these are all just hasty examples, but I hope you get the idea) - does this alienate or interest you?

Quote: "DB is geared for bedroom bangers, your demographic in age should answer this component for you, how did people feel about the upgrades you had with previous products. the demographic cried foul bloody murder, best to keep the original product as easy as possible and offer plugins like your already doing"



If TGC had released the our core products for free (DarkBASIC Professional, FPS Creator, etc) - would it have made any real significant difference to you?

Quote: " no, my loyalty may have wained while im at work with DB hours in mind but no i tell most people about it daily due to the experiences i have had with the product"



Do you find that just downloading something for free off a website devalues that product, or would it actually encourage you to explore it further?

Quote: "It does to the lowest common demoninator, but then again linux is free and well worth the download. the products quality shines through if its good and pasts the test of time"


If you had the core product for free, would you then be willing to pay for expansion or model packs? For example we see a lot of people complain that because they paid for product X, they should get Y and Z and all future updates for free. How would you feel about that being reversed?

Quote: "once again your sales demographic can tailor version releases eg: after 4 years give away another product within a sales combo and people wont feel so uptight having to pay for more, some people like to ride the technology crest and others wait for stability."



Or perhaps the price of the product forced you to pirate it anyway? In which case was it the price alone that made this happen?

Quote: " shiver me timbers, its been a while since ive cracked any software, I guess a successful person would pay for it and the underdog would pirate it"


If there is a price point under which an item no longer holds much real value for you i.e. you'd consider it 'disposable', what is that? This will obviously vary dramatically depending on your personal circumstances.

Quote: "another product can make something abandonware in regards to interest, more knowledge in similar fields can also do the same thing, however the product in question served a purpose and bridged a gap which is its niche unto itself, your demographic is what is really going to sell you more copies"



Quote: "The hardest parts for novice programmers is AI and collision, sure you have addressed visual effects and allowed 3rd party components to supply AI, however this is where dreams are broken for those who dont have the time to learn the finer aspects of AI and collision etc..

good luck boys, you have come a long way since the old days and earnt it every step"


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Richard Davey
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Posted: 26th Sep 2006 15:56
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Quote: "DB is geared for bedroom bangers, your demographic in age should answer this component for you"


That's (part of) the problem. Our demographic is insanely spread, both in age range and location. The only consistent factor is you're nearly all male!

I'm not sure that user demographics will help us massively here - I think the issue is one of product perception - although I would be interested to know if that correlates to age - but as we've seen in this thread that varies as much as our userbase does

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Darth Vader
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Posted: 26th Sep 2006 16:11 Edited at: 26th Sep 2006 16:26
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Quote: "Would a 'tiered product' structure appeal? Taking DarkBASIC as an example - a free version could offer you the core basics for game making, but all games have a pop-up screen at the end. A 'bronze' version does away with this. A 'silver' version adds in lots more 3D functions / features, perhaps shader support. A 'gold' version allows commercial release of your games, plus various other features (these are all just hasty examples, but I hope you get the idea) - does this alienate or interest you?"

To me this would be annoying. Having one program that does it all it what I want! I haven't read all the post due to the time, but I did read a bit and someone sadi that they feel ownership when they have made something with the product, so do I.

If Dark Basic Prohad been free I would have been extatic, I wouldn't have had to fork out that $150.00 to get it here (Microway stink!), but then I stop and think 'would I have trusted some free engine?' No, I prefer to pay, that way at least I know that effort, went into the creation of it. If your doing it for free then of course you would hurry it along to get it out you would miss out, small details.

The plugins you make are great and deserve to be paid for, they take hard work to make! and if you made everything for free then you couldn't work on TGC for a living (Do you?) you would have to have other jobs to support yourselves, in which case you couldn't devote time to the creation of these fantastic products! I feel loyal to TGC not only because its great and "roxz" but because everything that I get from it is quality. Not some free rushed program.

Don't get me wrong, I don't think every program that is free is rotten, take a look at Celtx thats a brilliant program for free! There are a lot of great products for free out there that do possess good quality but I am always skeptical on these ones. I like Dark Basic and I hope that one day I get to meet its creators (Lee and Mike) and biggest supporters (Rich).
After all you get what you pay for don't you?
One question, what is this poll's object?


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HowDo
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Posted: 26th Sep 2006 16:36
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If a 'tiered product' were to be chosen, then what hap-pen's to all of us who have bits of the product, how would we get a licence to fit what we have.

and would not a tier like :-

Demo - free - upgradeable to Pro

Pro - Pay Xx - general licenses to released items and charge for them. non commercial

Gold - Pay XXXX - you get a full commercial Licence for releasing any item, with a yearly charge for full background support and sell any item for what ever market will take.


Well that's My point of view.

I only brought DBPro because it lets me try to make something happen on my machine that I could not get anywhere near to doing with the other code programming languages.

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Olby
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Posted: 26th Sep 2006 16:55 Edited at: 26th Sep 2006 17:00
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Yes, I kinda get a 'sense of ownership' when I buy, but only if the product is cheap as all TGC nice products are.

Speaking about that bronze, silver etc. versions its total crap, because it is easaly to crack those version to terminate pop-up screens etc. its better to have one big program rather than thousands of small unstable and cut versions of the original this would make TGC life a real hell because imagine how many versions of same product you would have to sell and update. The answer is TOTALLY NOOOO WAAAY!!

I like how you operate right now and some major changes in this system will result in loosing some key users which uses DB way back since 1999. IMHO!

P.S. And whats the point of releasing your main products for free, dont you want to get money to life with. It wont make DBPro better or more popular. And if you will release it for free there wont be the excitement working on it and releasing new updates. Bad idea too.

"Error at line 0 - Your game sucks. Try again loser..." (Cash Curtis II)
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indi
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Posted: 26th Sep 2006 17:23
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interesting

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Richard Davey
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Posted: 26th Sep 2006 17:45
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Quote: "And whats the point of releasing your main products for free, dont you want to get money to life with. It wont make DBPro better or more popular."


I think it would make it more popular. I would imagine there is a large number of people who are not here in this forum because they cannot actually afford DBPro.

Anyway to answer your first part - I cannot go into specifics of our company revenue or how that is split, but suffice to say the core products are very far from our only means of income.

This thread came about because we're internally thinking about how to handle *future* releases, i.e. DB Vista. We would not retroactively apply it to existing products. But from a Vista point of view, if we enter the market with one of the first DX10 game making languages around, and make the core of that language free, I wonder how it would increase our user-base vs. charging for it. Try and think of it from that angle and see if that changes your opinion.

Cheers,

Rich

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MiR
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Posted: 26th Sep 2006 18:13 Edited at: 26th Sep 2006 18:14
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Quote: " Would a 'tiered product' structure appeal?"

Ummm. Iยดm not too keen on this. I wouldnยดt like having to get the comercial version just to get extra commands as I donยดt want to make comercial games.

Quote: "Does this 'ownership' make you feel any more or less loyal to a brand, or do you find there is a price point below which it doesn't make any difference?"

I think this only applies to very expensive products as youยดve had to save up for them, consider alternatives and basicly put alot of effort into the purchase. If youยดve put so much effort into it then youยดre not about to change to something diferent.

Quote: "But from a Vista point of view, if we enter the market with one of the first DX10 game making languages around, and make the core of that language free, I wonder how it would increase our user-base vs. charging for it."

Sounds good to me. Personaly I wonยดt be there pionering with you. I want to see if itยดs stable first. Then again, if the basic version is free thereยดs nothing to lose.

Need path finding in your games? Have a look at the tutorials on Pathfinding.
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Fallout
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Posted: 26th Sep 2006 18:14
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Just to agree with the concept of payment. For me, free stuff seems worthless. Anything that I download for free I can easily detach myself from, as mentioned by other people above. Unless I invest some cash in it, I won't take it seriously. I do believe I am more likely to try something if its free, but I'm much more likely to invest the time and effort into something if it costs money, and therefore become more loyal to the brand by growing to appreciate the products.

I don't like the idea of the tier system either. I especially dont like the idea of "the next level up includes a commercial license" type idea. Then you're basically having the concept that you're paying someone extra money for nothing shoved in your face. i.e. "We're happy to sell this product for ยฃ20 and that makes us all the money we think it's worth, but we'll try and rape you for ยฃ40 and give you absolutely nothing extra except our permission to make some money". I know that's a very cynical view, but that's how I see things.

I'm cynical about products that are "Enhanced" too. We all know that normally means the enhanced version is standard and the standard version is "stripped down" to try and force you to buy the enhanced version. They've not put in anymore work to make the enhanced version, except for deleting some lines of code from the standard one.

I prefer solid, honest, simply packaged products that do what they say on the tin, without any wheeling and dealing marketting techniques to try and get more money from people.


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Richard Davey
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Posted: 26th Sep 2006 18:32
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Quote: "without any wheeling and dealing marketting techniques to try and get more money from people."


This thread is really about getting more people, not more money (although I admit one should lead to the other, there is very little altruistic about most companies, ours included!).

If the true barrier to entry was the price, then a tiered approach would (in theory at least) solve that, as would making something free. However as you can tell from the comments posted so far this isn't the case, and if anything the money element increases the value of software. Truly not something I was expecting to see, but fascinating all the same.

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Ric
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Posted: 26th Sep 2006 18:45
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Two points:

1. If you give something away for free, you have no obligation to offer any customer suppport. I like the fact that DBP costs money, because when I pay money for a product, I know I have the right to complain when it doesn't work.

2. The Sony ethos of sell the console cheap then make money on the games, or the HP ethos of sell a printer for 40 quid then kill'em on the ink refills, clearly works for them. The game/ink are absolute essentials, and without them the console or the printer is completely useless - so, they are selling the essentials which make the core product work.

With DBP though, the core product (DBP itself) already works. The add-ons are not needed to make it work, so there is less need to pay out for them. DBP is the essential product - as you need DBP to make the add-ons work, so there is a much greater need to pay for it.

I'd keep things the way they are, personally.
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Miguel Melo
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Posted: 26th Sep 2006 19:57 Edited at: 26th Sep 2006 20:04
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Quote: "1) Do you feel there is a 'sense of ownership' in having to pay for a product vs. getting it for free?"


For me, certainly. Not beating around the bush, I'd say my increased sense of ownership on a paid vs free item is more so if the latter free means "dodgy copy". While I will sometimes get heavily involved with bona-fide free software (like Blender), when a friend drops off a copy of something that ahem... fell off the end of a lorry, I may glance cursorly at it but end up feeling intrinsicly bad about it that I just bin it.

This applies in my case to apps, games and audio cd's.

Quote: "2) Does this 'ownership' make you feel any more or less loyal to a brand, or do you find there is a price point below which it doesn't make any difference?"


Yes, but my loyalty is more related to the time I spent on something than the actual price. As long as _any_ amount was paid for something, all software starts on equal footing in my attention effords.

Quote: "3) Would a 'tiered product' structure appeal? Taking DarkBASIC as an example - a free version could offer you the core basics for game making, but all games have a pop-up screen at the end. A 'bronze' version does away with this. A 'silver' version adds in lots more 3D functions / features, perhaps shader support. A 'gold' version allows commercial release of your games, plus various other features (these are all just hasty examples, but I hope you get the idea) - does this alienate or interest you?"


It really depends. The problem with tiered is that invariably there's one feature in the next tier that you'd really love while your version has tons you don't use or need. And, invariably that last tier is out of your price range. I feel this about 3d game studio and many others. Few softs draw the line in the right place... I can only think of one off the top of my head and that's Carrara 5: the Pro version (which I don't want) mostly has really "pro" stuff, so I don't feel bad about owning Carrara 5 Standard.

Quote: "Yes this reminds me - how many people here took up the free Poser 5 or Bryce 5 offers that were running the past few months? They gave the core product out for free in the hope that you'd then buy into their content subscription / content sales."


Yes, I got both of them when on offer. And, no, I haven't installed any of them...

I have vague plans for World Domination
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Seppuku Arts
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Posted: 26th Sep 2006 20:07
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1) Do you feel there is a 'sense of ownership' in having to pay for a product vs. getting it for free?

Yes, I do.


2) Does this 'ownership' make you feel any more or less loyal to a brand, or do you find there is a price point below which it doesn't make any difference?

Yes, I feel guilty that I'm ditching Cinema 4D for Softimage| XSI and feel guilty for buying Torque when already owning DBP

3) Would a 'tiered product' structure appeal? Taking DarkBASIC as an example - a free version could offer you the core basics for game making, but all games have a pop-up screen at the end. A 'bronze' version does away with this. A 'silver' version adds in lots more 3D functions / features, perhaps shader support. A 'gold' version allows commercial release of your games, plus various other features (these are all just hasty examples, but I hope you get the idea) - does this alienate or interest you?

I like the idea, similar the truevision SDK. Heck most products are like that. Also, the free verson would be a good strategy, similar to how there is a PLE version for Maya, Mod Tool for XSI, gmax for 3DS Max and Apprentice for Houdini, all for the purpose of learning/modding and then once satisfied and are able to afford the product, they purchase it. I say go for it, if it works for everyone else, then why shouldn't it work for us.

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Jess T
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Posted: 26th Sep 2006 20:09
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Just did a quick Skim and picked out some points that took my interest...

Quote: "Rich:
if that could be split-out.. so you only paid for ENHANCEMENTS, and never for a 'bug fix', does that change any attitudes of people reading this?"


When I purchased Swift3D I was quite shocked to see in quite small print that it said "Upgrades will be given at a discount", which basically meant that I had to pay for any future upgrades.
I was then quite pleasantly surprised by the next little bit of print that said "Upgrades consist of major version changes and do not include bug fixes or minor functionality updates"

It's quite alright if you want to charge for a whole new feature, but don't charge for fixing whats either broken or doesn't quite do what's expected.


Quote: "Rich:
If we enter the market with one of the first DX10 game making languages around, and make the core of that language free, I wonder how it would increase our user-base vs. charging for it."


If you enter the market with one of the first languages, you're bound to make bucket-loads anyway.
But, if you enter with a free product, right at the offset, it could quite easily come across as a half-assed hacked-together peice of software that's just there to catch the start of the business boom! Be careful.


Quote: "Fallout:
I prefer solid, honest, simply packaged products that do what they say on the tin, without any wheeling and dealing marketting techniques to try and get more money from people."


Exactly my views aswell.



On a related note to the Free version;

Getting something for free doesn't mean it's not bad, but in my eyes it does remove a certain amount of ownership (the whole "I have this and you don't!" goes out of it).

On the other-hand, when you start talking Open Source, then Free implies ownership. Especially since you can then modify and create that ownership yourself. But, that's a little off-topic.


In summary, I quite like the system that is setup now:

Core language + Major features = standard purchase price
Non-essential Enhancements = standard 'Extras' price
Essential Upgrades + Bug Fixes = Free

Just my 2c.

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Olby
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Posted: 26th Sep 2006 22:14 Edited at: 26th Sep 2006 22:20
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Well I come from lets say 'not very good' country and I dont have lots of money to invest into game dev as it is just one of my many hobbies. But still I can afford DBPro and lots of plugins too.

As you said I looked from a different view and camed with an advanced idea of you had thought about.

I stole this ideo from my digital cable tv service provider, which gives as an opportunity to install different channel packages (News, Movies, Sports, XXX, etc. and we can watch only what we pay for and what we want to watch). Say you release core of DarkBASIC Vista which is virtually nothing more than a compiler and IDE, you can use basic math, input, text etc. commands. This is totally free. You can create dos-like applications. Which run execute some commands but nothing more (imagine a QBASIC style).

Then you release lots of add-on plugins which adds a specific type of commands like 3d, 2d, effects, sounds, multiplayer, ftp...

For example if I dont want to make games with DBVista and want my exes to as small as possible just a few KB's I wont use any external plugins, but then I can only make a command line application.

If I want to create a media-player I can get a WIN_GUI_PLUGIN, SOUND_&_MUSIC_PLUGIN install them and create a nice Windows Media Player Classic style player. As simple as that, BUT it wont take much CPU power because there is not any 3d used etc..

If I want to make next Quake 5 I get 3D_COMMANDS_PLUG, SHADERS_PLUG, SOUND_&_MUSIC_PLUG, MULTIPLAYER_PLUG, 3D_MATH_PLUG and GAME_FX_PLUG combine those commands and create a Quake 5 style game.

This is just an expanded idea of what DBPro is now, but giving users the chance to make their own 'gold versions' not buying that stuff that you at TGC think is the best packaging.Then we could save lots of money.

Plugins would cost lets say about 15-40 $ depending on how essential it is. 3d plugin may be sold @ 40$ meanwhile the lightmapper (which is required only for game editors etc.) is sold @ 15$. This will give a good price balance too.

Check my drawing to understand what Im sayin' about:


"Error at line 0 - Your game sucks. Try again loser..." (Cash Curtis II)
AMD Sempron 3.1+ Ghz, 512MB Ram, ATI R9550 256MB Ram, Sound Blaster Live!, WinXP SP2, DirectX 9.0c, DBP 6.2

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Seppuku Arts
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Posted: 26th Sep 2006 22:22
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And of course have grouped plugins, so those with more money can buy them together without having each one seperate.

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Jeku
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Posted: 26th Sep 2006 22:56
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When I purchase software, I feel more of an ownership toward it than if it was freeware. If I purchase something only to put it on the shelf, I feel a bit of guilt over the fact that I spent money on this and don't use it.

Therefore with purchased software I spent more time learning and making sure I know all the ins and outs. I honestly can't tell you how many free games I've downloaded, many of them quality, only to delete them 15 minutes after playing. But when I purchase something, even if it's a shareware game for $19.95, it does warm my heart and I take more time with the product.

Conversely, I will often not trust a product if it is free, especially if it's a dev product. I can HONESTLY say that I might never have given DBP much of a chance if it were a free download. Especially given that I've never heard of TGC before DBP. However, companies like Microsoft often give away awesome, quality tools for free (VS Express, DX SDK, Expression, etc.) so I have learned over time that there are a few exceptions to the rule.


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Uncle Sam
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Posted: 26th Sep 2006 23:12
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I have to be honest and say that although I like owning something I payed for, I would definitely prefer having it all free! No offense to the company or anything, but I feel that the prices are just too high, and there are long periods of time bewteen my purchases because of the cost. Like, I have to spend $75 jus to get vegetation for my games? Physics for $60? Think of Game Maker, it's like $20 and you get every new version free. We did get a new version of DBP free, but GameMaker has built in enhancements made free, whereas DBP you have to buy them. For example, GM has wonderful particles, but to get descent ones in DBP, you either have to make them yourself, or pay $30. I got Cloth and Particles, and it didn't work with version 6.1 even though it said 5.7+, so I had to return it. That's one of the other things I think TGC has a problem with: bugs. DBP was out for a long time before a relatively bug-free version came out, 6.1, which didn't work with cloth and particles. Think of GM, it works almost flawlessly, I can maybe say I have only found 1 or 2 bugs. It is also sooo much cheaper, and the rescently released 3D support is free for people who already have it.

Basically what I'm saying is, I wish TGC wasn't so focused on money-making, and had better help files like Game Maker. When people get DBC, they always think they are getting the enhancements, and forgive me if I'm wrong I think that TGC did this to fool buyers. Honesty and feeling like the company cares is what I care about when I go after a game-making program.

Uncle Sam
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Philip
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Posted: 26th Sep 2006 23:33 Edited at: 26th Sep 2006 23:33
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I'm actually very surprised by Rich's comments that he thinks TGC's products are too expensive. I actually think that they are inexpensive and very reasonably priced. The price that DBPro is on sale for is only a few rounds at a pub. Its the sort of thing that even a kid can afford after a couple of Saturdays working in Tescos or, say, he can ask for as a birthday or christmas present. Or about the cost of a standard computer game or one of Tinker's steampunk powered time/space vehicles.

Frankly, and speaking as someone in business myself, people will always tell you that you should sell cheaper. Thats not the point. The point is: which customer base do you want to have and at what price do you maximise profit?

Oh, and like Jeku, I would not have been interested in DBPro if it was free. Learning a programming language is a significant investment of time. I'm not going to make that investment as a customer unless I feel some assurance its going to be worthwhile and the language is supported.

Cheer if you like bears! Cheer if you like jam sandwiches!
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Richard Davey
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Posted: 26th Sep 2006 23:44
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Olby - Nice diagram. That isn't far from what we had been throwing around as ideas.

Philip - I'm not sure I said anywhere that I personally thought our products were too expensive. I don't, I think they are very well priced! I was just feeding back the sort of comments we are sent from people, and the sort of things I have read myself on these forums.

Also I have to admit I am fascinated by the fact that a lot of people here equate 'money' to 'must receive upgrades', i.e. that by paying for something you should automatically receive product level support (i.e. fixes). I am quite interested in why this is the case, as it isn't something I automatically assume when buying software. If something just doesn't work I know I will exercise my rights to a refund sometimes, but I also appreciate that unless purchased otherwise, the money I hand over is for the software in the exact state it is at that moment in time.

When I buy if it says '1 year of free upgrades' then ok I wouldn't think that, but technically just paying for something doesn't, in my mind, entitle me to any form of upgrade in the future unless the company so wishes to release one.

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David T
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Posted: 26th Sep 2006 23:50
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Quote: "Do you find that just downloading something for free off a website devalues that product, or would it actually encourage you to explore it further?"


I agree there, there is a sense of ownership with buying software. It is easy to toss aside something you downloaded for free if you fail to understand it whereas if you buy something you feel like getting value for money!

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Freddix
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Posted: 27th Sep 2006 00:17 Edited at: 27th Sep 2006 00:18
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Personnaly, I dislike the principle to make a multi-level licences...
It's something that is useful for big companies but it's the hell for small ones.
This idea is interesting for TGC because it can help TGC to reach more users (because it can appeal to low/medium/high money buyers).
look simply A6 Game Studio:
http://www.conitec.com/english/gstudio/3dgs2.htm#editionen
only professional version at $899 is interesting cos other does not have or have partial support for :
-bone animation
-shaders
-physic engine
-shadows
Making a full level with at least 1 physic object is ... weird ... I found that idea so ... (*#?ยง##!!*?*)
actually, these component are essential to create video games that are not outdated before their release.
I hate the principle for their resells.
Same for Blitz Basic... a low price for 2D version an higher price for 2D/3D ...

The problem is that if you make a low price product that does not (for example) handle shaders. Your product will be outdated... useless.. why ? Simply because user can't use the full potential of its computer... Why buy a product that is useless ? Only the high price version is then useless. and making the fact that paying for extra commands that are in fact essential become easily onerous...

Making a free demo version is good but must not be unlimited on time. A programming language is longer to learn than a game to test, to know if we can take full potential of the prodct. I think a 3/4months demo is enough.

Make a product free does disengage developer to support it... when you sell a product, you always have in your mind the principle to think that user buy it to have it working correctly so, you generally engage yourself to fix the bugs/issues.

I also agree that there is a sense of ownership with buying software.

All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given to us.
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Lost in Thought
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Posted: 27th Sep 2006 00:34
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Quote: "Also I have to admit I am fascinated by the fact that a lot of people here equate 'money' to 'must receive upgrades', i.e. that by paying for something you should automatically receive product level support (i.e. fixes). I am quite interested in why this is the case, as it isn't something I automatically assume when buying software. If something just doesn't work I know I will exercise my rights to a refund sometimes, but I also appreciate that unless purchased otherwise, the money I hand over is for the software in the exact state it is at that moment in time.

When I buy if it says '1 year of free upgrades' then ok I wouldn't think that, but technically just paying for something doesn't, in my mind, entitle me to any form of upgrade in the future unless the company so wishes to release one."


In most cases I agree with you. But if the trial version is limited in such a way that you can't find all the bugs (bugs in the non-limited section) or something is promised to work and doesn't right off ... I think those things should be free when fixed. Also if a new upgrade breaks something that worked before, it should be a free fix. I think that alot of times we get mixed up in the definition of upgrade and bug fix. Bug fixes should always be free. New functinality (something not promised to work in the first place) should be paid for.

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Miguel Melo
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Posted: 27th Sep 2006 01:07
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Quote: "If something just doesn't work I know I will exercise my rights to a refund sometimes, but I also appreciate that unless purchased otherwise, the money I hand over is for the software in the exact state it is at that moment in time."


I think you thread a dangerous path with this statement. An API is not a blender, where you plug it into the mains and check that it works in 5 seconds. A lot of problems with software are skeletons in the closet, sometimes a whole lot of closets that are on the western wing of a very large house, where you come in thought the east!

Above all, things should "work as advertised" - it's the law and it is what makes sense. I can understand that free upgrades are not a given, and agree that they should not. But free bugfixing should.

Take the thorny issue of DGDK. When I bought it, I did because it said, among other things that it supported shaders. But we all know that, up until last month on versions 1.1.* shaders just _did not work_.

Furthermore, there is still stuff missing from dgdk that is on dbpro, and that I am waiting for my particular project. And adding "virtually*" to the sentence "The Dark Game SDK provides all of the command" as you did isn't really an excuse because when I bought it, that footnote wasn't there... (spot the differences http://darkgamesdk.thegamecreators.com/ and http://web.archive.org/web/20050328005319/http://darkgamesdk.thegamecreators.com/)

I am not trying to be awkward, but there is a difference between giving people new stuff for free and giving people what they paid for...

But, for what it's worth, I'd still wouldn't ask for a refund on dgdk even if I could because I really like it! I just wished it would level with dbpro once and for all...

I have vague plans for World Domination
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Richard Davey
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Posted: 27th Sep 2006 01:39
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Quote: "I think you thread a dangerous path with this statement."


I don't. My comment remained product/company neutral from the start, but if you want to make it specific to TGC we have always honoured refund requests, even months after most companies would tell you to get lost.

Quote: "Above all, things should "work as advertised" - it's the law and it is what makes sense. I can understand that free upgrades are not a given, and agree that they should not. But free bugfixing should."


Ethically bugfixes should be free, but there is actually no obligation to provide this. If something doesn't work as advertised you can try to exercise your right for a refund, but even then there is a fine line, and not all companies will even go this far.

For example I remember buying a game some time ago that was impossible to finish due to a bug. They had no intention of fixing it, the shop wouldn't give me a refund, I was stuck. Although not an API there was still no way to tell this would happen until reaching that point in the game. I doubt this is a singular case.

I run a number of applications on my PC every day that I have to pay for every single upgrade of (on a yearly basis), most of which are just bug fixes. I put up with this because I need to use them for my work. What my original point was is that assuming you will receive any upgrade at all just because money was involved is a false sense of security (unless it was stated at the time of purchase). Yet comments here clearly show some sort of link between money and support - and again another assumption that 'free' means 'unsupported' - I just wondered where this culture stems from as it's not something I personally have ever felt.

"Bite my shiny metal ass" (Futurama)
"Don't ping my cheese with your bandwidth" (Dilbert)
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Kevin Picone
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Posted: 27th Sep 2006 01:49
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Rich,

Quote: " 1) Do you feel there is a 'sense of ownership' in having to pay for a product vs. getting it for free?"


To me, such association comes more from a sense of a product usefulness, than what I paid for it. My expectations are certainly higher for any product I purchase though. Scalable in fact, the higher the price the higher expectation!


Quote: " 2) Does this 'ownership' make you feel any more or less loyal to a brand, or do you find there is a price point below which it doesn't make any difference? "


Any positive experience will help fuel brand loyalty.


Quote: " 3) Would a 'tiered product' structure appeal? Taking DarkBASIC as an example - a free version could offer you the core basics for game making, but all games have a pop-up screen at the end. A 'bronze' version does away with this. A 'silver' version adds in lots more 3D functions / features, perhaps shader support. A 'gold' version allows commercial release of your games, plus various other features (these are all just hasty examples, but I hope you get the idea) - does this alienate or interest you? "


We've been thinking down the same path for a while now. Anyway, If we cast minds back to DB's beginnings, were having the fairly open demo (ie DB1.07 from memory and bellow) which allowed building exe's, but had splash screens/run time logo's. Which allowed the community to grow. It made sense to limit the demo, there was nothing else to up sell.

This is one of the things that we certainly notice with PB for example. That is by having a time limited demo, we're alienating many casual programmers from getting any real opportunity to learn PB in order to build that positive association to begin with. (among others things )

Whether you offer a base version free or not, it's the same up selling model. It certainly guarantee's a bigger install base. I do wonder what conversion rate would be like though. The cost of expansions might need to be scaled up to accommodate base product losses, if the conversion rate isn't suitable.


PB V1.49 Released - Next Generation PlayBasic FX & PlayBasic 3D Available soon!
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Philip
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Posted: 27th Sep 2006 01:49 Edited at: 27th Sep 2006 01:52
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@Rich

Miguel Melo has beaten me to it. I was about to respond to your comment which he has quoted in his post above.

Personally, when I pay for software, I don't really expect serious bugs or to have to pay for them to be fixed!! By contrast, added functionality over and above that advertised with the product is something I do expect to pay for, i.e. the Cloth and Particles pack, EZ_rotate etc.

I have always felt that English law has not yet fully grappled with software. There has been a long running debate in the legal community as to whether software is goods or services but the consensus does seem to be that off the shelf, as opposed to bespoke, software is goods. If so, it is governed by the Sale of Goods Act 1979, as amended. That act provides, inter alia, that in the contract for the sale of any goods, the goods have to be of satisfactory quality and "fit for purpose" as advertised (s.14 etc.). In practice the Courts have tended to say that anything other than a very minor defect is in breach of those standards.

Therefore, English law at least does not accept the proposition: "the money I hand over is for the software in the exact state it is at that moment in time" because if the software said it could do X, Y and Z but could only actually do X, the buyer would be left without a remedy. The Victorian days of contract law relying on the principle of caveat emptor are gone, at least as far as the small-guy consumer is concerned.

Plus, asking customers to pay to fix bugs is a very good way of destroying a thriving business. I really hope TGC isn't contemplating this. It'd be commercial suicide.

*** EDIT ***

In response to your second post:

Quote: "If something doesn't work as advertised you can try to exercise your right for a refund, but even then there is a fine line, and not all companies will even go this far.
"


If the company doesn't give you a refund then you can, if you wish, commence a small claim in the local County Court against them. If their product has some kind of fault, you are of course entitled to damages. In practice the damages will be in the same sum as the price you paid for the product, unless you can demonstrate some other consequential losses, i.e. damage to your computer or the equivalent.

Cheer if you like bears! Cheer if you like jam sandwiches!
"I highly recommend Philip's Vector Tutorials" (RiiDii)
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dab
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Posted: 27th Sep 2006 02:15
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Quote: "1) Do you feel there is a 'sense of ownership' in having to pay for a product vs. getting it for free?
"


I feel that if I know how to use it well, it's mine. Doesn't matter about price (as in free or bought, not in the $12,3000 priced objects)

Quote: "2) Does this 'ownership' make you feel any more or less loyal to a brand, or do you find there is a price point below which it doesn't make any difference?"


I really feel if I contribute to the brand enough, or support morally, I feel loyal. Such as, Levis, as a kid, I felt loyal to the brand, and always bought at least a pair of pants when buying stuff. I guess the same goes here. But I contribute as much as I can on the forum. That's what makes me feel loyal, not the price I spent on a piece of software,

Quote: "3) Would a 'tiered product' structure appeal? Taking DarkBASIC as an example - a free version could offer you the core basics for game making, but all games have a pop-up screen at the end. A 'bronze' version does away with this. A 'silver' version adds in lots more 3D functions / features, perhaps shader support. A 'gold' version allows commercial release of your games, plus various other features (these are all just hasty examples, but I hope you get the idea) - does this alienate or interest you?"


I seriously don't like anything free. If I used a free version, I would never use the paid version. Its been that way for a while. Game Maker, I was totally content with what I had. Visual Studio, I'm totally content with what I have. Besides, we're only Indie developers, not millionaire game developers. So, I wouldn't fork out for the GOLD DBP, if the version I have still is workable. Besides, I program for the self satisfaction of programming myself.

Quote: "
If TGC had released the our core products for free (DarkBASIC Professional, FPS Creator, etc) - would it have made any real significant difference to you?"


Not really, If I didn't already, have DBP, I'd taken them into consideration, but then, I'd of gotten bored, and went to something else.

Quote: "Do you find that just downloading something for free off a website devalues that product, or would it actually encourage you to explore it further?"


If something doesn't appeal to me visually, or supportedly (like help docs, forums etc..) I usually don't spend the time looking into it further.

Quote: "If you had the core product for free, would you then be willing to pay for expansion or model packs? For example we see a lot of people complain that because they paid for product X, they should get Y and Z and all future updates for free. How would you feel about that being reversed?"


If I bought a program (like I did for DBP), I'd expect to get FREE updates, and free models (occasionally also not as important). If it were a free version, then you don't deserve anything but bug fixes for free.

Quote: "Or perhaps the price of the product forced you to pirate it anyway? In which case was it the price alone that made this happen?"


Why would you pirate a free program?

Quote: "If there is a price point under which an item no longer holds much real value for you i.e. you'd consider it 'disposable', what is that? This will obviously vary dramatically depending on your personal circumstances."


Well, there's a bargain, and there's a steal. A bargain, is a great deal, a steal is practically free. Of course, I'd consider a steal a used item, so if a program was like $0.50, I'd consider it not that great. Free just means, that it's not supposed to be "professional", so, meaning you shouldn't expect much from it.



Overall, I'm grateful for how you guys do things now, and can't complain. If you made me pay to upgrade to 6.3, I'd blow a cap. Of course, I'd love you guys and would probably offered some plug-ins free. I'd probably buy something else from you guys just because I want my free gift to be as usable as possible.

(Wow, this has to be my longest post ever!)

Your mom has been erased by a mod from you telling too many "your mom" jokes.
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Miguel Melo
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Posted: 27th Sep 2006 02:35
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Quote: "I don't. My comment remained product/company neutral from the start, but if you want to make it specific to TGC we have always honoured refund requests, even months after most companies would tell you to get lost."


My comment was intended as company neutral too. My intention was not to take the oportunity to take a pot shot at you or TGC... I simply picked the DGDK as a specific example (the one that most people over here could relate to) to set the dycotomy between "obligatory free fixing" and "obligatory free new features".

I understand that you probably agree with the diferenciation above, but the wording on your other post seemed to blur the two things, which left me somewhat uneasy.

I have vague plans for World Domination
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