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Geek Culture / A sense of ownership question - please get involved

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Steve J
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Posted: 27th Sep 2006 02:44
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1) Yes. More so for hardware, I feel proud that I supported the company after making the dive.

2) YES! I adore tgc.

3) No, As is it is nice.

http://phoenixophelia.com
Steve J, less, and less Controversial!
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RadiusOFT
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Location: Aloha, OR(egon)
Posted: 27th Sep 2006 03:16 Edited at: 27th Sep 2006 04:22
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Imagine the US government decides its unconstitutional to not allow people across the border if they dont have the proper documents, so they open the border. What Then? Millions of people a year would be floding the US and they could possibly ruin our economy with their low paying jobs. It's the same with DB/DBP, because of the cost of the software you only get people who are dedicated to learning the language, its TGC own little Border Patrol.

Plus youd be screw'n over all the people who paid for DB/P + extensions ... It would be very similar to the SWG 2005 Nerf of Doom, and let me tell ya', that wasn't pretty.(many thousands of people quit)

My only suggestion would be to lower the prices of your Big extensions just a tiny bit (ie. dark ai =30$)

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Darth Vader
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Posted: 27th Sep 2006 07:08
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Quote: "This thread came about because we're internally thinking about how to handle *future* releases, i.e. DB Vista."

If you make a Vista version what will happen to DBpro?

I like DBP and the way TGC have made it I can sum it up in one word, simple. You buy a complete package it has everything in it to make a game, simple. I don't have to worry about getting the silver or gold edition I just have to get one product, simple. I don't have to worry about publishing anything illegally as you give it royalty free, simple. Sure the enhancment packs, like the particle one, would add better functionality then the inbuilt ones but there not essential.

I like it the way it is, simple, I haven't purchased any enhancment pack (Yet ) but I will if I need its extra abilities.

For me DBPro was expensive, and looking back I would have got it cheaper if I had ordered it form TGC direct! But I am happy I got it even though it cost me $150.00. I left DBpro for a while because it was too hard, but then I felt quilty after spending all that money so I came back to it and haven't left it since!

When I was looking for a game creation tool I looked at the A6engine and thougt it would be great to have because its an 'Engine,' I thought that Dark Basic Pro was just a language, until now everytime I make something with it I think of it has an 'Engine' (Of course its an engine I was just ignorant of that fact back then!).

Like Cash said the only complaint I have with TGC is the name of Dark Basic Professional! Couldn't it be something more closer to C++! That way people wouldn't frown down on us!


http://ideal-entertainment.galekus.com
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BatVink
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Posted: 27th Sep 2006 11:12
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Quote: "because of the cost of the software you only get people who are dedicated to learning the language, its TGC own little Border Patrol"


That is a very good point. The forums are a very valuable source of information and networking. They would need reworking to ensure that the quality posts are isolated from the cmplete tosh.

As for the price of the product - I don't have an issue with it. On a cost per feature basis, it outranks any of the competition.



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Cash Curtis II
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Posted: 27th Sep 2006 12:25
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Quote: "On a cost per feature basis, it outranks any of the competition."


I totally agree with that. There seem to be two groups of users here - 1. adults with jobs that know that DBP is cheap and have no problem shelling out a little money for a good product that we can use, and 2. Younger people that don't have jobs or money and constantly complain that everything is so expensive and that plugins should be free and TGC shouldn't worry so much about money.

I don't think that changing policies will cause this second group to spend more money. I think that certain people will always complain about money.


Come see the WIP!
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BatVink
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Posted: 27th Sep 2006 13:01
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It's also about how you position it. Taking the current DB Pro as an example...

You can advertise the product as is, at the same price.
You can then have an "also available" DB Pro freeware version, without shaders, vertex manipulation, memblocks or the ability to use plugins.

So you have a main product, and a freeware version with less. This is psycholigically very different from having a free version as the main product, and a version with more features that cost money.



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Richard Davey
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Posted: 27th Sep 2006 13:23
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Miguel:

Quote: "My comment was intended as company neutral too. My intention was not to take the oportunity to take a pot shot at you or TGC... I simply picked the DGDK as a specific example (the one that most people over here could relate to) to set the dycotomy between "obligatory free fixing" and "obligatory free new features".

I understand that you probably agree with the diferenciation above, but the wording on your other post seemed to blur the two things, which left me somewhat uneasy."


If you take my original comment in the context it was meant, i.e. me personally stating I didn't understand why there is a culture of money = free upgrades, and remove TGC totally from the equation, then that is literally all I was implying.

Had I bought DGDK at the start I probably would have asked for a refund to be honest, and I wouldn't have been the only one either. That isn't what my comment was about, I wasn't saying 'why should TGC provide free upgrades/fixes', I was asking why do people equate money with them? because in my personal experience the two rarely go hand in hand. Maybe I'm just unlucky in the software I've bought, or I only seem capable of buying from companies that charge for everything, I don't know, but my question still remains

From a purely ethical basis I believe that a company should release free bug fixes (which taking it back to TGC again is what we do, albeit eventually), but I fully appreciate this isn't "the norm", so was curious why this is perceived to be the case.

I'll give you another example - I use FTP Voyager Secure to handle most of the large file uploads I do. The software was quite cheap to buy (around $60 at the time), but if I wanted updates I had to pay for an extension to my license. I've been using the software for around 5 years now, and each year I carry on paying so they can deliver upgrades to me, most of which are bug fixes, sometimes new features. I have the option NOT to subscribe to this update service, but then if I want to upgrade FTP Voyager again in a few years time, I'd have to pay for it again.

So from an ethical point of view that company obviously don't care one bit about providing free bug fixes. I would guess the continuous licenses make them a lot of money, easily equal to actual product sales.

I'm not advocating TGC go down this route, but it is an extremely common one lots of software companies take - regardless of what UK law might dictate, when I bought it (from a US company) they sold it to me 'as is' and I agreed in their terms I would have to pay for upgrades.

I guess it's because I run so much software like this that I personally do not equate money with upgrades when it comes to software.

"Bite my shiny metal ass" (Futurama)
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Jess T
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Posted: 27th Sep 2006 13:24
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That's very well-put Batvink

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spooky
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Posted: 27th Sep 2006 13:45
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Quite surprised to be browsing ebay and found TGC had its own shop there drastically undercutting rrp's of DBC, DBPro and FPSC

http://stores.ebay.co.uk/tgc-software

Interesting.

Boo!
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Zappo
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Posted: 27th Sep 2006 14:20
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I attach much more value to products that I buy. There are of course exceptions (Linux, Firefox, Open Office to name three but then I don't expect support with them). I am much more likely to keep coming back to something which has annoyed me or I have gotten stuck with if I have paid money for it, than if it was free. I would also certainly remain more loyal to a stable commercial piece of software as I feel (rightly or wrongly) that there is less chance of it disappearing overnight, along with its support.

I very much dislike software companies which I have bought items from, only to have the exact same versions appear for free later. This actually tends to put me off buying from them in the future.

I am not in favour of tiered products where versions with massively cut down feature sets are released cheaper. In my experience its not been long before I find I need the extra features and have ended up paying again for the bigger version. This happened when I first bought DBC and then bought DBPro a couple of months later. Saying that, it didn't bother me much because I didn't consider DBC a huge expense. All of TheGameCreators in-house made software in my opinion is good value. I do like the idea of a full featured cheaper version which does not include a distribution license and has a popup at the end (or the beginning). I loved the personal versions of Delphi which were released and actually bought a commercial version myself when I was happy that I had applications I could distribute.
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Miguel Melo
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Posted: 27th Sep 2006 14:22 Edited at: 27th Sep 2006 14:24
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Quote: "Quite surprised to be browsing ebay and found TGC had its own shop there drastically undercutting rrp's of DBC, DBPro and FPSC"


I have noticed this too recently.

I'll be honest, @ £17.50 I'll probably get fpsc one of these days just for the heck of it. This, of couse, as long as whoever it is that is running the shop will agree to send to Portugal.

Now at £29.99+VAT, I really am not that interested: it is somewhat above my impulse purchase mark.

Pragmatically, I only really use the gdk to develop. Dbpro I use just to test samples from the codebase+forums and see if it's worth porting them to the gdk. I'd only want fpsc for completeness and, maybe, to use as a sample testbed like dbpro.

So, I'm probably adding a further twist here on the discussion: should TGC think through a better structure to cross-sell their products to people to re-enforce loyalty and build a stronger "fanboy" base? Would that yield more gains in terms of money and userbase?

I have vague plans for World Domination
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Philip
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Posted: 27th Sep 2006 14:41
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Quote: "but it is an extremely common one lots of software companies take - regardless of what UK law might dictate, when I bought it (from a US company) they sold it to me 'as is' and I agreed in their terms I would have to pay for upgrades."


@Rich

Very broadly speaking, when dealing with English consumers, a company cannot by its contractual terms and conditions exclude the mandatory provisions of English statute law, i.e. the Sale of Goods Act 1979 and the Unfair Contract Terms Act 1977 etc. If a company tries to do that, the Courts will immediately strike down the offending terms in question in any litigation.

The public policy reason behind this is protection of consumers, i.e. joe public.

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"I highly recommend Philip's Vector Tutorials" (RiiDii)
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Tinkergirl
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Posted: 27th Sep 2006 14:47
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I think a tiered product would stifle a bit of the community too - for example the DBPro Challenge Thread. It might make it a bit more of a have and have not divide, with money becoming something that divides users. Would 'free' users be looked down apon as skinflints? Would people with the uber version be seen as snotty spoiled kids? *shrugs* Seems a shame.

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Lost in Thought
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Posted: 27th Sep 2006 15:04
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Quote: "I was asking why do people equate money with them? because in my personal experience the two rarely go hand in hand. Maybe I'm just unlucky in the software I've bought, or I only seem capable of buying from companies that charge for everything, I don't know, but my question still remains

From a purely ethical basis I believe that a company should release free bug fixes (which taking it back to TGC again is what we do, albeit eventually), but I fully appreciate this isn't "the norm", so was curious why this is perceived to be the case."


I think it is because so many people think ethically like you do, that bug fixes should be free. So we in turn expect them to be. If I decide to sell software all bug fixes will be free. And I will not sell software until I am positive it is made with software that is either dead nuts stable or is updated quite well either regularly or on demand (bug reports are kept up and don't sit idle for months). This way I can be sure I can fix bugs when reported to me. I will continue to make code with DBP and give it away for free and will not think of trying to sell anything from it until the bug reports are kept up a bit better. The same goes for FPSC, I would not think of trying to make anything commercial with it for similar reasons. I'm not saying that DBP and FPSC aren't well worth their money, just that I don't consider them a commercially stable software yet. In the next 6 months to a year I can see great things coming from both of them. Just not now.

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Richard Davey
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Posted: 27th Sep 2006 15:04
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Quote: "Quite surprised to be browsing ebay and found TGC had its own shop there"


Yeah this was Ricks idea, for a start I'd like to point out the shop is UK only (and only ships to the UK), but his reasoning behind it was that he saw other ebay sellers buying-up stock and flogging it on ebay at a knocked-down price, so he went in there to under-cut them basically. It's not exactly a 'high volume' area, and there are obviously no pack deals available via it. You also don't get the download version while we ship it.

Quote: "when dealing with English consumers, a company cannot by its contractual terms and conditions exclude the mandatory provisions of English statute law"


If only that made any difference! I can give you numerous examples of it not doing so.

"Bite my shiny metal ass" (Futurama)
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Lost in Thought
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Posted: 27th Sep 2006 15:10
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Quote: "I'd like to point out the shop is UK only (and only ships to the UK)"


They need to fix this then

Postage costs: Free
Seller's Standard Rate
Post to: Worldwide

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Darth Vader
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Posted: 27th Sep 2006 15:14
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Quote: "Very broadly speaking, when dealing with English consumers, a company cannot by its contractual terms and conditions exclude the mandatory provisions of English statute law, i.e. the Sale of Goods Act 1979 and the Unfair Contract Terms Act 1977 etc. If a company tries to do that, the Courts will immediately strike down the offending terms in question in any litigation."

Your rather smart for a bear!


http://ideal-entertainment.galekus.com
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BatVink
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Posted: 27th Sep 2006 15:20
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Quote: "he saw other ebay sellers buying-up stock and flogging it on ebay at a knocked-down price, so he went in there to under-cut them basically"


Sounds like normal business practise to me Providing a partnering product is one thing, and is good for all. But under-cutting deserves to be wiped out.

On my personal website, we have half a dozen competitors that are now selling with zero mark-up, or less! I'm just sitting it out, waiting for them to wipe each other out. I still get orders at RRP, and I don't have the hassle of shipping out dozens of orders, knowing I'm making nothing from them. But I don't own or make the product, which is a different kettle of fish altogeter.



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Miguel Melo
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Posted: 27th Sep 2006 15:28 Edited at: 27th Sep 2006 15:29
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Quote: "Quote: "I'd like to point out the shop is UK only (and only ships to the UK)"

They need to fix this then

Postage costs: Free
Seller's Standard Rate
Post to: Worldwide"


Yeah, but by extending posting to Europe (at least), not by downgrading the "Post to:" to UK. Even if they make the p&p NOT free.

I have vague plans for World Domination
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Richard Davey
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Posted: 27th Sep 2006 15:35
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Quote: "They need to fix this then"


Actually from looking at it, I'm not entirely sure what has been set - the item says 'ships worldwide', then at the bottom under 'Postage' it says free shipping is available to UK only, but no other shipping price is given. Your guess is as good as mine on this one.

Quote: "But under-cutting deserves to be wiped out."


BatVink - this is because traditionally we have never published the software. In the UK FastTrak publish DB/DBPro, and therefore sell it at very reduced rates to the likes of Amazon, and other 'wholesale' companies, which is how it ends up on ebay so cheap. We of course buy our own stock direct from FastTrak too. However this is ending at the end of this year and we are going to start publishing all titles ourselves instead of relying on other companies. Then we will explicitly control the pricing and can offer better deals / pack combos.

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BatVink
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Posted: 27th Sep 2006 16:57
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I don't know if my post was clear - I was saying that the exisiting suppliers on eBay are getting what they deserve.

Having said that you need to be careful...one of my wholesalers sells any number of products (starting at 1!) to anyone who approaches them. That is a problem, especially when one of my customers finds out they can buy 1 item at wholesale prices, and then comes back to me to complain. That's not how retailing works!

What should happen is that the publisher/manufacturer always sells at retail price, but with possible added benefits. Then they can still allow other retailers to sell on their behalf, but by controlling the distributors price ensure situations like eBay don't happen. Again, I have been in a scenario where a manufacturer undercut the retailers, and lost a huge chunk of their outlets as a result.



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spooky
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Posted: 27th Sep 2006 17:34
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One of our clients is the sole uk importer of a few specialised electrical items and we set up their ecommerce website where they sell the items. All well and good until they then started selling the items at wholesale prices to various outlets who then started selling them on their own websites at anything up to £100 off the price. Now our client is whinging because they are not getting so many orders off the website.

Same thing here. If many people are swayed by price, then there is no reason not to just buy TGC products off the ebay shop. Means a drop in profit. Better than letting those other undercutters get the money I suppose.

Back to the original questions though, if a future version of DBPro was free or incredibly cheap, could this forum cope with the thousands of extra noobs?

Personally I have no problem paying for stuff but I'm in a fulltime job and I bought DBPro many years ago. Really had my money's worth. Only bought couple of enhancements, NGC and BlueGui as they were quite cheap, but not had time to use them yet!

I definetly prefer paying and receiving a boxed product as I like to 'see' what I've paid for and makes me more loyal to the product. Downloads and freebies just don't seem the same, although at work we are more than happy to buy downloads, like Rich, we also use FTP Voyager as it has a brilliant 'sync' feature. Even our mail server, ftp servers, dns servers, web stats, etc, are all downloads, but more importantly they are not free, but paid for.

We did try a few freebie programs but the support and functionality was just not on par with paid products.

There are lots of free products that do have excellent support though, mainly by the use of support forums where users do the main support.

That's what makes TGC so good in my eyes, is this excellent forum. Due to so many current advanced users helping out noobs it maeans TGC does not need to do so much support themselves.

Not sure giving away a product for free and relying on people buying enhancements would be viable as most users seem to struggle with coming up with just a few quid. Much better to charge for everything but at a much lower cost.

I do feel however that you need to sort out the remaining bugs, the long overdue new help files and commision a new IDE that you can update yourself. You would then have a product you can be proud of.

Boo!
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Peter H
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Posted: 27th Sep 2006 18:21 Edited at: 27th Sep 2006 18:29
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I stumbled upon DBPro purely by chance, i had no idea how one would go about programming 3D games (having only messed around in Q-Basic) and i just happend to find DBPro in a amazon search for 3D game programming...

if i had found some other 3D language first (like blitz say) i would have bought that. If DBPro was free i would have put just as much dedication into it as i did paying for it.

but that was coming at it with no 3D programming experience whatsoever... now that i've used DBPro and tried various other free programs (I.E. Irrlicht) i can say that now i don't give free development programs more than a brief glance (having been dissapointed in the support, documentation, and ease of use of all the free dev programs i've tried)

if TGC released a Vista DBPro where you had to buy the fancy extensions, i'd be perfectly fine with that. because i wouldn't buy any extensions, unless i absolutely needed them. (which i might point out means not much profit for you from me).

as for tiered stages with free version, normal version, commericial version... well whenever i see a software that uses that method i steer clear of it, because as i think cash was saying, usually instead of a normal version and an enhanced version you end up with a crippled version and a normal version...


Quote: "So you have a main product, and a freeware version with less. This is psycholigically very different from having a free version as the main product, and a version with more features that cost money."

What batvink said there is really the key i think if you're going to have a freeware version.

not sure if i just helped any or just rambled, but i tried

[edit] oh, if it helps any i'm in that category of being a poor stingy non/young-adult without a job.

and here's answers
1) Yes, for example i always get really excited about games i buy, and play them for hours at least, but free ones i download usually last maybe one try then go to the trash bin. Same goes for dev programs. (bought milkshape for example, worked hard to get used to it's interface, downloaded blender, worked hardish but didn't feel bad about deleting it, after all, i can always download it again right?)

2) It doesn't make me feel any loyalty towards the brand itself at all, it makes me feel loyal towards the software. What makes me loyal to the brand is when i find their software to be good.

3) Nope, would turn me off like barf and "corn" soup for dinner, gives me this feeling of being cheated.

"We make the worst games in the universe..."
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Agent Dink
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Posted: 27th Sep 2006 20:32
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I haven't read all this thread, so I may be jumping into the middle of a conversation here, but this is my view on TGC.

I don't think I'd like a tiered product for the same reasons others have given. I really think that the way it is, is just fine, the prices are very fair, and the free core engine updates is a great thing. I do feel a sense of ownership when I buy anything. Even if it's download-only software, if DBP were free when I bought it, and I did look into it, sure that would be great, but after buying something, you feel forced in to using it to get the most you can for your money, and I think that helps with motivation. I think I most likely would have stuck with my old engine that I knew how to use already.

I just downloaded Jeskola Buzz last night which is a free synthesizer program that I wanted to use to mock-up some game music with. I opened it up and decided I didn't want to learn it all at the time. Had I bought a program like Buzz, I would be very excited to get home from the store and try it out, and say an investment of $50 is enough motivation to sit down and learn something for a few hours, and most likely I would be in the middle of designing some music right now for a game.

The only thing I dislike about TGC is how there are so many things to buy, now thats not a bad thing, I love variety, but if I bought every expansion I want, I'd be spending quite few bucks on top of the core engine. But really if you compare this to other engine's prices and update policies, TGC really is the best in my opinion. I like the fact we don't have to pay for every update or pay an extra fee for core updates when we purchase a TGC product. It is nice to upgrade only what you want to, whether its Blue to add windows commands/gadgets or Dark Physics to add physics commands. It is far better in my opinion than paying for every update to DBP if these were all included, because I look at a few expansion packs and think, "Well, I'm glad I don't HAVE to pay for these commands, I'll probably never use them..."

That's my view on the matter anyhow.

Sometimes the only way over a wall is to pile up enough bodies to climb over - Dave W.
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Benjamin A
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Posted: 27th Sep 2006 23:21
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Quote: "1) Do you feel there is a 'sense of ownership' in having to pay for a product vs. getting it for free?"


For me not really. If something free does it just as good, I often don't see the point in paying for it. I feel like I own the free prducts just as much as the ones I've payed for.

2) Does this 'ownership' make you feel any more or less loyal to a brand, or do you find there is a price point below which it doesn't make any difference?

Not at all. For example I've recently switched from Bryce to Carrara even though I've used it for years. Simply because Carrara offered more at a good price. If some other product fits my needs better I switch.... UNLESS I've invested a lot into the application extra's. Application extra's make me more loyal to an application. Like with FPSC, I've invested so much time and money into modeling packs and supporting applications, that it's hard for me to switch. If it only would be FPSC, oh well, I could switch. But the time, effort and money put into FPSC to make it as I want it to be definiteley makes me more loyal. The more content and extra's an application offers, the more loyal I tend to be.

Another thing that makes me loyal, is the workflow. If something has improved my workflow a lot, I never switch to a different application. Even though the other applications may offer more, if they do not improve my workflow at all, I don't switch.

3) Would a 'tiered product' structure appeal? Taking DarkBASIC as an example - a free version could offer you the core basics for game making, but all games have a pop-up screen at the end. A 'bronze' version does away with this. A 'silver' version adds in lots more 3D functions / features, perhaps shader support. A 'gold' version allows commercial release of your games, plus various other features (these are all just hasty examples, but I hope you get the idea) - does this alienate or interest you?

Yes, I love this idea. I've recently been checking out some 3D engines to use for a new kind of project I want to move into and it suprised me how hard it is to really get a good grips on the engine itself. Many offer demos that don't allow you to even test what you make, so you've got no idea what it really does output. Also often the time limited demos run out of time before you even get to knopw the engine a little.

By setting up such a way of offering different formats of the application, one can test and play with for a long time and really learn the core of the engine well.

Also if I'm working on free projects and don't have the tools needed to finish the project, I always look to free tools first. After all I'm not getting anything (besides satisfaction) in return. I'm not going to spent $$$ on finishing a free project. I will spent $$$ on projects I know I'll get something in return for. Very often the free basic tools have convinced me to buy the better featured or commercial useable version.

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H4ck1d
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Posted: 28th Sep 2006 00:05
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For me personally, this may sound weird, but I think something about paying for it does make it seem to be of a greater value, and adds a sense of ownership that doesn't come with getting something for free; you feel like you've worked for it. It also adds somewhat of a "professional" air, as you have to want it to get it. I think that's a good thing.

Also, I feel that software with a fully-functioning "lite" version tends to oftentimes devalue the software. Demo = good, "lite" = bad. If you were, however, to offer it as another product separate from the main flagship product, it does less to lessen the value.

Just my 2 cents!

-H4ck1d

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Philip
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Posted: 28th Sep 2006 01:01
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Quote: "If only that made any difference! I can give you numerous examples of it not doing so."


@Rich

I understand your point. But just because someone doesn't choose to enforce their rights for perfectly sensible practical reasons, that doesn't mean that they don't have rights.

Cheer if you like bears! Cheer if you like jam sandwiches!
"I highly recommend Philip's Vector Tutorials" (RiiDii)
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Hobgoblin Lord
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Posted: 28th Sep 2006 01:49
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I don't mind paying for products I find useful, but paying for something does not generally keep me interested in it. I bought Acrobat 5.0 when it came out and I have used it but it sees nowhere as much use from me as say Graphics Gale which I got for free then bought the full version.

Quote: "In my example tier though the 'demo version' would be the full thing, just crippled in some way."


When it comes to things like this I would rather see a watermark, pop up whatever over a timed trial, sometimes it can take a good while to really determine what you can really do with a product. It also opens up student use a little more, for instance at my college I have used DBP for several of my Game Design classes and the instructors would love to have DBP in our labs for student use, but school budgets have prevented them from purchasing it. A timed trial in this case would not be any good as it would not even last a semester and only one semesters students would even have a chance to use it.

Just my two cents

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Darth Vader
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Posted: 28th Sep 2006 10:02
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Quote: "Back to the original questions though, if a future version of DBPro was free or incredibly cheap, could this forum cope with the thousands of extra noobs?"

Oh No!

Quote: "However this is ending at the end of this year and we are going to start publishing all titles ourselves instead of relying on other companies. Then we will explicitly control the pricing and can offer better deals / pack combos."

Oh Yeah! Sounds great! Who said tgc was expensive! Well if you can drop you prices that will be great!

Quote: "Had I bought a program like Buzz, I would be very excited to get home from the store and try it out, and say an investment of $50 is enough motivation to sit down and learn something for a few hours, and most likely I would be in the middle of designing some music right now for a game."

Maybe this is telling me that instead of downloading Gamespace Light I should buy a 3D modelling tool, that way I might actually begin 3D modelling!

Quote: "I definetly prefer paying and receiving a boxed product as I like to 'see' what I've paid for and makes me more loyal to the product."

Same here! I actually asked Microway (the Aussie TGC Distrubutor) if they could send me the boxed version. They weren't going to until I told them that I was on dial up! Then they shipped it to me ASAP!


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Ron Erickson
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Posted: 28th Sep 2006 21:23
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Personally, I think making a FREE version of a programming language such as DBpro is a bad idea.

This market is only so big. It is not so much limited by cost of product. It is much more limited by: FIRST the amount of people that are interested in trying to do this and SECOND the amount of people that are mentally capable of actually doing it. Making a free version does not really open the gates of the first problem. It may, however, close the gates of a sale for those faced with the second problem. So, what you could find is that your just cutting yourself off at the feet.

I do think that products such as FPS Creator would benefit from some kind of free version (crippled of coarse). It has a much bigger market to begin with. It could also be a sort of "gateway drug" to programming language.

Instead of working extra hard to squeeze every drop out of THAT market, I think opening up into others a bit more could be beneficial. TGC has certainy grown a name for itself. Why not get MORE into a publishing role? There are a few games being developed here that could be considered worthy.

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bosskeith
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Posted: 29th Sep 2006 01:19
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Actualy i think WOLF is on to something because not only do they promote the sales of their base product but they would be able to show what can be created ... of course the selection of what should be published would be under their disgression making sure that it truly shows what can be created(not some text rpg style game). I think there are several of us who now have at least 1 qality game twiddling our thumbs thinking now what.

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Duffer
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Posted: 29th Sep 2006 09:37
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@ TGC,

1) yes - but added extras 'for free' make punters feel more loyal and warm towards the seller - a well known marketing tool.

2) ok up to a point - but if the price goes too high or the pricing structure is taking the p!ss the punters migrate to another product or, in fact, someone clever writes another product and the punters migrate.

3) for something like a basic programming language - most of us know the best we'd ever aspire to is freeware - but any mention of paying for licenses and a deep aversion wells up - and again, punters migrate.

part of the attraction of DBPro is the fact that the core language has grown so well over the years - for free mainly. part of the attraction is its accessibility to someone with little programming skills - let's face it, someone who's a diva with c++ isnt using DBPro to write games...

my perception is that you've done pretty much all you can do with the core DBPro language (save for perhaps future compatability with DirectX10, Vista, 64bit issues, full support for CSG commands, gamefx.dll full support, a few more 3d/3danim commands,perhaps some more on Advanced Terrain).

beyond that? perhaps some more pay-for utility programs?

a long time dabbler with DBC and DBPro with no actual talent but lots of enthusiasm...
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Darth Vader
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Posted: 29th Sep 2006 13:34
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Quote: "Instead of working extra hard to squeeze every drop out of THAT market, I think opening up into others a bit more could be beneficial. TGC has certainy grown a name for itself. Why not get MORE into a publishing role? There are a few games being developed here that could be considered worthy."

Thats sounds brilliant! Having sort of like Torque. They have an engine but they also publish there games! This would also be beneficial for hard-core DBP programmers who want to get a foothold in the real Game Dev world. Since the game would be made with TGC's product it might also be easier to get it through! Of course theres a lot more work then setting up a publishing firm but I think its a great Idea!


Oh sorry if I'm straying from the point of the thread!

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Agent Dink
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Posted: 29th Sep 2006 18:58
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That would be sweet!

Maybe you guys should think about selling in more shops and stores too?

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Syncaidius
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Posted: 30th Sep 2006 01:03 Edited at: 30th Sep 2006 01:09
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Quote: "Do you feel there is a 'sense of ownership' in having to pay for a product vs. getting it for free?"


Well I downloaded Microsoft's Visual C++ Express Edition a couple of months ago, which is free. I started to try and learn C++ using it, but I eventually got fed up and ditched it becuase it was too limited. Once I bought The full package of MS Visual C++ 2005, I immediatly found plenty of help and support and i'm still using it now.

So, from my point of view, I find free development software usally cheap and nasty, unlike software i've paid for. After a while I usually get fed up using a piece of software and if it's free I just never seem to return to using them much afterwards.

Just sell things the way you do now, it works best.

EDIT:
I also agree with Agent Dink, trying selling more of your software in stores. I never found any TGC software here in Wrexham (UK). I bought DBC, Dark Matter 1 and DBP from amazon.

Maybe you could sell the plugins on CDs in stores for a reasonable price. Maybe priced a little more than the downloadable versions, like most companies do. You could still keep the online activation/registration method.

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FredP
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Posted: 30th Sep 2006 19:32 Edited at: 30th Sep 2006 19:34
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I think that offereing the base product...let's use DPB for example...at an inexpensive price would be good.
Of course you would have the splash screen and all of that.
Then you could offer the other stuff as packs or add-ons...
Like you aredoing now except for maybe adding like an FPS add-on,RTS add-on,etc.
And maybe bundling stuff in packages like putting darklights, darkphysics,etc. in a bundle and offering a discount for the bundle would be good.
In the case of FPSC you buy the complete product and any add-ons (with the exception or RC1.03 V2) are offered by the forum members.
I do expect this to change as the nifty little things that the DBP users have filter down to FPSC.
Then you can do the same thing with it.
Lower the price of the original (or V1.03 or whatever it ends up being) and offer a feature packed version (with better lights, physics,etc.) for a higher price.
You might also bundle the FPSC model packs together and give a discount or if a member has bought one or more model packs then give a discount on them.
You could also make the models availble individually.That way if a member sees a model or models they like they can purchase those instead of having to purchase the whole pack.
As far as a sense of ownership goes I have always felt that people tend to take better care of things they pay for than if it just falls into their lap for free

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Alfred
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Posted: 30th Sep 2006 19:56
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Quote: "Do you find that just downloading something for free off a website devalues that product, or would it actually encourage you to explore it further?"


I first dowloaded the 30 day trial of DBC. I liked it so much that I decided to buy it. Something similar happened with DBP.

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Drunken Fiesta
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Posted: 30th Sep 2006 21:48
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Honestly, I'm quite happy with the way things are right now, with just buying a more than competent piece of software that is free to upgrade and should I be able to afford them getting add-ons to make certain things easier or less work, which there certainly are some that I'm trying to set aside money to get.

However, while I like the idea of this for the most part -

Quote: "3) Would a 'tiered product' structure appeal? Taking DarkBASIC as an example - a free version could offer you the core basics for game making, but all games have a pop-up screen at the end. A 'bronze' version does away with this. A 'silver' version adds in lots more 3D functions / features, perhaps shader support. A 'gold' version allows commercial release of your games, plus various other features (these are all just hasty examples, but I hope you get the idea) - does this alienate or interest you?"


But I don't like the idea of only the most expensive version allowing commercial release. I can see not wanting a commercial release from the free one, but it should be for all paid versions, not just the most expensive version.
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geecee3
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Posted: 30th Sep 2006 22:05
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Free tools can be very valuable to a developer. I use several free plugins with my 3d app which allows me to get exactly what I want from it. For me these free software tools are indispensable. If I was getting into game dev now, I would most probably be on the lookout for quality free tools and special editions of software to get me started. Free versions of known quality products are always welcome even if they are cut down versions with restrictions and limited features, you can still cut your teeth on them.

Take Dark Physics for example, imagine a free version of that which gave you rigids, collisions and forces, I'd probably be content with it for a while, and the temptation would grow to buy the full version with all the extra features as i started to outgrow the rigids system and get more adventurous.

I think the main problem with free software is you have no commercial kudos behind it, no matter how good it is. this lack of commercial placement can have an impact on the uptake of the application in question.

IMHO nVIDIA have the right idea with GELATO, this is a free rendering system of awesome power that uses the grunt of your GPU / GPU's to boost rendering speeds while retaining software render quality. the free version is virtually identical to the full commercial version which costs something silly like $1500. nVIDIA is a strong brand ith a heavy market presence and as such this software will be adopted and used heavily by a great many people. In this case the 'branding' speaks volumes as does the commercial price tag for the same application making it a must have for any rendering nut.

The express versions of MS products will also fair well because of the commercial ties to the bigger versions, and of course the name behind the product and the company that makes it.

You do however come across a few hidden gems in the free software market, but these products tend to be skipped over by people on the prowell for quality free software, simply because the branding or commercial tie isn't there.

free versions of TGC products would prolly be seen as valuable to a lot of people simply because TGC are becoming a popular brand and have a fairly large quality product base. If TGC was still in its infancy this would not be the case as there would be no comercial clout behind the free applications, and would therefore be seen as half assed amature attemts at game dev environments and programming languages.

IMHO for a company to have its free software respected and valued, the company in question must have some commercial clout and be a known brand, otherwise your software will only be adopted by a relativley small number of people who decided to download the app and liked it enough to stick with it.

Free software is more valuable than you might think, many people will not spend money on a game programming language on a whim, but they will download a free version if the product has a commercial presence and is known to be high quality, a few of these people will go on to purchase the meaty versions that allow them to do more with the application.

As it stands, Free versions and feature scaling could be a good thing for TGC, strong market presence and good software, of course it will be valued.

How many people jumped at the chance of free poser and bryce from DAZ?? free and promotional versions that alow the user to actually do stuff can only be good for TGC's branding and maintaining their foothold in the marketplace.

The free versions of software will also help combat piracy in an indirect way by placing the products directly in the hands of end users for free, sure some of them might go on to use hacked / cracked versions of the language, but the vast majority of people are honest folk and will gladly pay for a quality product with more features and the ability to release what they make as a commercial product of their own.

Free software is going to be a major part of the software industry in the future as the marketplace becomes ever more crowded and people want their products noticed. dont be surprised if some companies plough vast amounts of cash into their free software, its the ultimate advertising medium.

cheers, Grant.

Ohd Chinese Ploverb say : Wise Eskimo, not eat yerrow snow.
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Benjamin A
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Posted: 30th Sep 2006 23:09
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Quote: "But I don't like the idea of only the most expensive version allowing commercial release. I can see not wanting a commercial release from the free one, but it should be for all paid versions, not just the most expensive version. "


I agree completely. Instead of that why not following a slightly different scheme?

Bronze --- free version, no commercial or shareware, only freeware, with TGC logo.

Silver --- paid version, commercial or shareware allowed, only with TGC logo.

Gold --- paid version, commercial or shareware allowd, logo free.

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y2ksw
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Posted: 1st Oct 2006 01:55
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Quote: "1) Do you feel there is a 'sense of ownership' in having to pay for a product vs. getting it for free?"
Personally, I pay for a good product even if it is for free, unless the author really doesn't like to be paid. And yes, having paid for a product, I feel I am a possessor of it, no matter what the EULA says

Quote: "2) Does this 'ownership' make you feel any more or less loyal to a brand, or do you find there is a price point below which it doesn't make any difference?"
If the product is good and the price is fair, I tend to stick to the brand. If the price is unfair, I would not use the product in any way, even if I would like to have it (like for example InstallShield).

Quote: "3) Would a 'tiered product' structure appeal? Taking DarkBASIC as an example - a free version could offer you the core basics for game making, but all games have a pop-up screen at the end. A 'bronze' version does away with this. A 'silver' version adds in lots more 3D functions / features, perhaps shader support. A 'gold' version allows commercial release of your games, plus various other features (these are all just hasty examples, but I hope you get the idea) - does this alienate or interest you?"


Tiered products are reasonable if there are only few, 2-3. If there are too many, I think the best is to give out a free 'bone', and additional plugins, more or less the way how DB Pro works now. Tiered products give always the feeling you miss something out and you never can get it without an expensive upgrade, so there are many potential buyers who never buy, because they fear to strat with little. The modules give everybody a chance.

Quote: "If TGC had released the our core products for free (DarkBASIC Professional, FPS Creator, etc) - would it have made any real significant difference to you?"


Only at the beginning I take my time, and it took me about 2 years to decide which engine to use. If there was a fully functional engine available (for more than 30 days) this decision would have been faster.

Quote: "Do you find that just downloading something for free off a website devalues that product, or would it actually encourage you to explore it further?"


Encourage definitively.

Quote: "If you had the core product for free, would you then be willing to pay for expansion or model packs? For example we see a lot of people complain that because they paid for product X, they should get Y and Z and all future updates for free. How would you feel about that being reversed?"


Expansions are the best for me.

Quote: "Or perhaps the price of the product forced you to pirate it anyway? In which case was it the price alone that made this happen?"


I reinstalled several times on different PC's to be able to test DB Pro for a longer period (6 months) before I decided to buy. I hate software limited this way.

Quote: "If there is a price point under which an item no longer holds much real value for you i.e. you'd consider it 'disposable', what is that? This will obviously vary dramatically depending on your personal circumstances."


Not appliable. Any product which is good has a value, even if it is for free. I dispose only software which isn't maintained or has not the needed requirements. No matter of the price of course ...
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Kenjar
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Posted: 1st Oct 2006 19:05
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1) Do you feel there is a 'sense of ownership' in having to pay for a product vs. getting it for free?

If you say it's free, then it's free. The question of Ownership really isn't relivent.

2) Does this 'ownership' make you feel any more or less loyal to a brand, or do you find there is a price point below which it doesn't make any difference?

Well, I've paid for it, and I'm too cheap to go over to something else. So in that respect, it makes me more loyal to the brand.

3) Would a 'tiered product' structure appeal? Taking DarkBASIC as an example - a free version could offer you the core basics for game making, but all games have a pop-up screen at the end. A 'bronze' version does away with this. A 'silver' version adds in lots more 3D functions / features, perhaps shader support. A 'gold' version allows commercial release of your games, plus various other features (these are all just hasty examples, but I hope you get the idea) - does this alienate or interest you?

- Bronze

Basically, give away DarkBASIC Professional (but call it DarkBASIC Starter Edition) as it is now, but with no support other then that provided on the forums, and restrict the selling of Commerical games, this will give users time to practice with it and have fun learning the language.

- Silver

Price this at around £49.99 as you do now, give away DarkAI, and DarkPhysics (Ageia requires a licence so base a software version on ODE or something simular), and the Shader System that's being worked on. Allow royalty free game development with it, and technical support. Also provide a brand new IDE that is bug free. Give this away to users who have already purchased DarkBASIC Professional and have a licence code already issued.

-Gold

Price this around £100 - £120, offer to existing users for £20.

Revamp the networking to support MMO and other large multiplayer games.

Give away Dark AI, and Dark AI 3D designed for open space games such as a flight or space simulator.

Give away DarkPhysics based on ODE, and DarkPhysics based on Ageia's engine with a choice to use either.

Give away DarkLights, DarkSpeach, and Shader support and editor.

Give away a texture and model pack, the source code an FPS, Flight Sim, Space Sim, Point and click adventure, a few retro games and finally a basic MMO. Ensure that these games require all the Gold features to they can't be given away to Silver or Basic users. Make these games royalty free to sell providing they have a Gold licence.

This way Gold has:

1) DarkBASIC Pro's core abilities.
2) Easy AI implimentation.
3) Software and Hardware Physics Intergration.
4) Proper Shader Support and generation.
5) Much Improved networking tools for MMO's and other large multiplayer games.
6) Royalty free licence.
7) Source Code.
8) Media packs.
9) DarkLights.
10) DarkSpeech.
11) Better IDE.

Finally have a fouth Option:

Developers Edition -

Price - £150 - £300

Exclusive membership to a DarkBASIC Professional Club, where TGC Developers personally hand out advice.

The Product comes with a proper set of books much like "Hands On DarkPHYSICS" covering all the aspects of the language.

Access to the DarkBASIC Professional source code.

Access to Plugin Source Code

A DVD full of 1st class models and textures.

--------------------------------------------------------

This way, you get rid of DarkBASIC Pro's reputation for being a hobbiests language, while giving a starters edition for hobbiests to play with. You are not alienating existing users, and opening the market up to developers who are serious about producing games and software in DBP. You also have packages that suit existing shareware developers and serious game developers alike.

I lay upon my bed one bright clear night, and gazed upon the distant stars far above, then I thought... where the hell is my roof?
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General Reed
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Posted: 1st Oct 2006 23:22
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Say dbpro was given away for free, what about people who have already purchased it?
Or the price of dbpro could go up, and so plugins are given away for free.

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Kenjar
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Posted: 2nd Oct 2006 00:12
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The only fair way as I just said, is to give away the next tier up with an added feature or two. I'd love to see them make a new IDE for instance, and a software version of DarkPhysics based on ODE or something.

I lay upon my bed one bright clear night, and gazed upon the distant stars far above, then I thought... where the hell is my roof?
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y2ksw
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Kenjar, your proposal sounds really good, specially the latest option which would be in the interest of many.

I would add the SDK software too, to make it a complete package, and maybe a support system with a few free tickets. The forums are great, but sometimes we need immediate help. When it's paid I think it will work out faster and preciser, paticularily when looking for workaround and patches for bugs
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jinzai
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Posted: 2nd Oct 2006 03:43
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I especially agree with Philip's sense of surprise. Doing what we all do is a significant investment of more than just money, however. I think the suite is very affordable. The difficulty is that there is not a clear sense in the consumer's mind of what it takes to be creative in this endeavor.

I use Quark, for example and I have an investment of time and effort in putting it together in a coherent manner for use in my pipeline. The same goes for DBPro, MS VC++, WinZip, 3D CanvasPro, etc. I have a sense of ownership of Quark. I would feel no different if I had paid even $100 for it.

I have collected alot of tools for use in my programming efforts. The ones I have kept are the ones that are useful to me.

I said something to you about 6 weeks ago that...might have seemed like I was flaming you...I apologize for that, but when I made the comment "what floats my boat is..." I meant that. DBPro does that in spades. It is a fabulous product at the price.

Finally, the marketing scheme that you are considering would work imo...what I think is needed is some better step by step documentation about the game creation process using DBPro and [pipeline brand x]. It is available in the forums, etc. but I think that putting this kind of utility in such a pervasive channel is bringing out everyone...I mean everyone.

I will end by saying that printed documentation, even a printable pdf document...adds a great deal to my sense of ownership, but the thing that made me feel like I owned DBPro was when I made the first dll for it. That gave me the sense that TGC understands that I might have a unique use for DBPro...and I want to understand how it works, too. Awesome, guys...thanks. Still, I am going to get Dark GSDK, too...give me alittle time to earn your money already.
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Dazzag
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Posted: 3rd Oct 2006 13:12
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Quote: "1) Do you feel there is a 'sense of ownership' in having to pay for a product vs. getting it for free?"
Yes. Even more so if there is a box.

Quote: "2) Does this 'ownership' make you feel any more or less loyal to a brand, or do you find there is a price point below which it doesn't make any difference?"
Yes it does. A bit. But if another product with similar specifications comes out, then if I can afford it, I would jump ship, at least temporarily to try it out. Then is a case of which one you prefer. I bought DIV as soon as I saw it in the shops, DB as soon as I found it on a web search, DBP as soon as it was released, and Blitz 3D as soon as it was released too. Only use DBP now (when I get the chance) cos I quite like it (and I'm used to the community).

Quote: "3) Would a 'tiered product' structure appeal? Taking DarkBASIC as an example - a free version could offer you the core basics for game making, but all games have a pop-up screen at the end. A 'bronze' version does away with this. A 'silver' version adds in lots more 3D functions / features, perhaps shader support. A 'gold' version allows commercial release of your games, plus various other features (these are all just hasty examples, but I hope you get the idea) - does this alienate or interest you?
"
There is a definite *elite* feeling if you have the *ultimate* version. If I was selling a product I would *definitely* have a tiered approach. If you did extra stuff like put a gold star next to our forum avatars then I'm damn sure more people would push for the better version. It's a status thing.

Cheers

I am 99% probably lying in bed right now... so don't blame me for crappy typing
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Benjamin
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Posted: 4th Oct 2006 04:17 Edited at: 4th Oct 2006 04:18
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Quote: "It's a status thing."

Yes but then you get the elite/noob thing. Oh wait

Tempest - P2P UDP Multiplayer Plugin (DBP/DBCe)
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Steve Fash
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Posted: 4th Oct 2006 19:56
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Quote: "1) Do you feel there is a 'sense of ownership' in having to pay for a product vs. getting it for free?"

Yes, absolutely. Also if you've paid for something you tend to use it more to "get your moneys worth!".


Quote: "2) Does this 'ownership' make you feel any more or less loyal to a brand, or do you find there is a price point below which it doesn't make any difference?"
Only loyal whilst using the product to be honest. If something new and affordable comes on I may purchase and shift over (ie I went from Blitz to DBP).

Quote: "3) Would a 'tiered product' structure appeal? Taking DarkBASIC as an example - a free version could offer you the core basics for game making, but all games have a pop-up screen at the end. A 'bronze' version does away with this. A 'silver' version adds in lots more 3D functions / features, perhaps shader support. A 'gold' version allows commercial release of your games, plus various other features (these are all just hasty examples, but I hope you get the idea) - does this alienate or interest you?"
I think that's a good idea providing there is only a smallish upgrade fee from silver to gold. That's a similar idea to what clickteam have done with multimedia fusion 2 I think. (tgf2-mmf2-mmf2 developer with small upgrade prices from one version to the next for added functionality).

Steve

For game/demo music for YOUR PC productions visit:-www.futuredevelopments.org.uk
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Torsten Sorensen
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Joined: 23rd Oct 2005
Location: Seattle, WA
Posted: 4th Oct 2006 20:40
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1) Do you feel there is a 'sense of ownership' in having to pay for a product vs. getting it for free?
Yes. Normally when I have payed for something, there is a sense of ownership.

2) Does this 'ownership' make you feel any more or less loyal to a brand, or do you find there is a price point below which it doesn't make any difference?
It really depends on the product, but yes for the most part.

3) Would a 'tiered product' structure appeal? Taking DarkBASIC as an example - a free version could offer you the core basics for game making, but all games have a pop-up screen at the end. A 'bronze' version does away with this. A 'silver' version adds in lots more 3D functions / features, perhaps shader support. A 'gold' version allows commercial release of your games, plus various other features (these are all just hasty examples, but I hope you get the idea) - does this alienate or interest you?
I don't normally like this idea, but after thinking about it for a few minutes, it really could work. Especially with FPSC-- Half models/no online/banner at end = very cheap or free.

Those are my ideas, hope you get more good feedback.
Torsten

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