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Geek Culture / PS3s still on shelves?

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The ARRAYinator
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Posted: 16th Jan 2007 01:43
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I have the ps3 and its funny i was talking to a friend over which is better 360 or ps3 and some intresting things were said. I in no way hate xbox and might buy one down the road but right now I have the ps3. Anyways they are equal in price. Yea I know all you xbox fanboys you don't make the price an excuse. Because ps3 has a bluray drive and xbox has a dvd drive. Microsoft got smart and sold the hd dvd seperately therefore bumping it up into ps3's price range if you buy it but making it look like less money just for the system. and still ps3 is more powerful and no one in there right mind will argue that. another factor is the games yea ok xbox you win for the time being but please make fun of ps3 a year and a half if its games still suck and I would agree with you. I think many of you on these forums would be intrested to know that I have booted linux off of my ps3 which is pretty cool if you ask me. Plus developers are never going to use hd-dvd for games anyway cause its an addon so well I hope you like movies and have an hdtv(if you can afford one then you can probaly afford a ps3,lol). Well seems like it all comes down live for the xbox which sony doesent have a half bad system going themselves not as good but heck its just going to get better. In my opinion microsoft has an excellent marketing strategy no doubt. BUt ps3 is being beat on way to much and its really a better system both in power,value, and flexibility for crying out loud theres a menu called install other os. How cool is that its open to be whatever you want. Imagine running wine and playing good old half-life 2 maybe not now cause of thos ppc cores but when a company makes it this easy to hack a system who knows whats possible. Again the 360 is great and i have nothing against it I just can't stand all of you destroying the ps3 for its price and or whatever else. Anyways thats just my 2 cents on the matter.



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Izzy545
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Posted: 16th Jan 2007 02:19
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Arrayinator you lose, simply because you're factoring in the cost of OPTIONAL accessories and saying that that makes the 360 cost more than the PS3. It doesn't. The 360 is two hundred dollars cheaper than the PS3. Period.

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Tinkergirl
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Posted: 16th Jan 2007 14:50
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As a blu-ray player, you're right - the PS3 is the best console for that.

But for playing games, at the moment the PS3 is not the best console. The lack of good games at the moment defines that with terrible clarity. Unfortunately, the stock shortages and current poor lineup translates to a smaller userbase, and that may translate into fewer games being made for it. This could be a slippery time for the PS3.

Those people who want to buy a blu-ray player, will no doubt buy a PS3 - but those people who want to play a good selection of games will probably not pay money for the PS3 right now. In the future, who can say - but right now, it's not the best option.

As for it being able to boot linux - I'm wondering what the point is? I mean, if its for the idea that you'll be able to make your own games, well you've got a PC for that. If it's for using it to do your spreadsheets and finances - you've got a PC for that (and it's much better suited to it too). If it's just so that you can have the fun of seeing one of your creations on a console, then there's been multiple homebrew options for consoles for years and years - the 360 even makes it easier and gives you C# libraries to work with (and help files and documentation, etc etc, for a fee, of course). Heck - even the PS2 had YaBASIC if you really just wanted to see "Hello World" on your console.

Booting it to linux is technically impressive, but not terribly useful as far as I can see. As for running wine and HL2 - I'm sure thousands of PC owners do that already.

I'm not 'dissing' your console choice - as there are reasons for buying one (blu-ray player) but there are also reasons for not buying one. Each and every customer has that choice, and based on their own priorities will choose the best machine (or no machine) for their wants.
(And please, next time could you use paragraphs in your post - it was quite hard to read. Thanks.)

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Kentaree
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Posted: 16th Jan 2007 18:43 Edited at: 16th Jan 2007 18:44
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I'll just say one thing:



Nuff said.

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Benjamin
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Posted: 16th Jan 2007 18:44
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Quote: "What? What the hell are you talking about? I said that the PS3 was incredibly unoriginal."

I just don't see your point. Is the 360 incredibly original?

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Saikoro
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Posted: 16th Jan 2007 18:55
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Ben, he's not comparing it to anything. He's just saying its another generic system with no WOW factor.


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Jeku
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Posted: 17th Jan 2007 07:22
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And I've heard Sony is not helping developers with nice tools like Microsoft has for their 360, so it's not really in the developer's best interest to make their PS3 ports any better looking that the 360 counterparts. Sony is known for making difficult-as-hell-to-develop-for machines. Why oh why?

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Chris K
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Posted: 17th Jan 2007 11:10
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I think its just that Microsoft actually is a Software Developer - the biggest in the world, even - so they have an infinitely better understanding of what developers want, what they can do, what they can't... I think that's why they found it so easy to woo studios like Rare and Lionhead over to their side (that and about a hundred billion in cash reserves!)

I wonder if they could do something sneaky to VS9, meaning it can't compile code for Cell II. The next console war would be over pretty quickly if that happened.

-= Out here in the fields, I fight for my meals =-
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Kentaree
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Posted: 17th Jan 2007 11:46
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Here's another fun one: http://www.eurogamer.net/article.php?article_id=71894

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Chris K
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Posted: 17th Jan 2007 12:42
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Yes folks that is $812.77

-= Out here in the fields, I fight for my meals =-
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Kentaree
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Posted: 17th Jan 2007 12:50
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Good ol' Sony, not only do they make Europe wait longer, but because of the favour they also charge extra

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Zappo
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Posted: 17th Jan 2007 13:34
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Quote: "As for it being able to boot linux - I'm wondering what the point is?"

Well, I can think of a few possibilities just off the top of my head... free applications, free games, free development tools, it could even be used as a server to provide file storage for your network or Web sites to the world.
Quote: "you've got a PC for that "

Some people don't, and most of those who do won't have one plugged into their big screen TV in the living room. It definately has its advantages.
Quote: "If it's just so that you can have the fun of seeing one of your creations on a console, then there's been multiple homebrew options for consoles for years and years"

Yes but they are mostly quite expensive to use requiring extra or altered hardware, paid subscription services or an additional PC to develop on. They are often 'very' unofficial too (sometimes infringing copyright or IP laws, as well as breaking your warranty), and its often difficult or impossible to share your creations with others who do not also have the same modifications/subscriptions.

Re: Costs. Its a good point about the lack of a 'next gen' optical drive in the Xbox 360. To bring it to a similar level as the PS3 you would have to include it in the price, plus of course the online subscription charges. Although the initial outlay looks horrifying for the PS3, when you facter all this in its not quite such a bad deal as its first impression.
Quote: "If you buy a game for $50 and expect to play online for free forever, good luck with that mindset"

Well I have had a few PS2 online games for a few years which require no subscription and they still work fine. I think the stress to the servers drops drammatically over time as less and less people play their older games. I don't expect it to cost the games manufactures enormous amounts to keep the services going on old boxes in the corner.
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Hobgoblin Lord
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Posted: 17th Jan 2007 13:37
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Unless that game is Starcraft Yet still it is free to play.

http://forum.thegamecreators.com/?m=forum_view&t=73324&b=8
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Chris K
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Posted: 17th Jan 2007 16:39 Edited at: 17th Jan 2007 17:56
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Quote: "Yes but they are mostly quite expensive to use requiring extra or altered hardware, paid subscription services or an additional PC to develop on. They are often 'very' unofficial too (sometimes infringing copyright or IP laws, as well as breaking your warranty), and its often difficult or impossible to share your creations with others who do not also have the same modifications/subscriptions."


You can't be suggesting that the PS3 offers a better package to the home developer. That fight is well and truly won by Microsoft.

-= Out here in the fields, I fight for my meals =-
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Tinkergirl
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Posted: 17th Jan 2007 17:00
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Quote: "Yes but they are mostly quite expensive to use requiring extra or altered hardware, paid subscription services or an additional PC to develop on. They are often 'very' unofficial too (sometimes infringing copyright or IP laws, as well as breaking your warranty), and its often difficult or impossible to share your creations with others who do not also have the same modifications/subscriptions."


Well surely you'd require an additional PC to develop on for PS3 homebrew? While it's technically feasible that they might create dev tools on the PS3 for the PS3, it would be at quite a massive disadvantage compared to developing on the PC (what with all the tools, utilities, dev environments, debuggers, etc).

If you're wanting to advocate the use of a PS3 as a Dev alternative to a PC for those people considering buying one or the other, then I'm afraid I would most definitely cast my vote on the side of the PC.

If your hope is that Sony will legitimitise the creation of non-liscenced (as in, free) software for their console, then I'll go out on a limb and suggest that as long as Sony are making a loss on the core hardware, then they have very little to gain in the short term from encouraging such activities, and quite a lot to lose. (Arguements about a proliferation of a free and creative software resources resulting in more devs for your console notwithstanding).

Microsoft have gone the middle and cautious route - they advocate and encourage amature (and independant) development, while gaining a bit of revenue back, and restricting the distribution of rubbish noise, but the opportunity to cherry pick the good ones.

People can plug PCs into tellies, if they choose. Those people who are technologically advanced enough to do that, are probably the same ones who could seek out and download independant software for a linux-booted PS3. Your average punter turns to the console for great games with no effort involved in setup. That's the majority of the console market at the moment, and selling a PS3 to the technological 'elite', and the high definition audio-visual cutting edge crowd, is not really that big a market, all things considered.

I my core worry, is that as a games machine - a pure and simple games machine - the PS3 is unfortunately a box of potential with not much yet to show.

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Kentaree
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Posted: 17th Jan 2007 17:10
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It also seems to have been put back to an April launch instead of a March launch now:

http://www.computerandvideogames.com/article.php?id=155700

To be honest, it's getting a bit ridiculous, there's plenty of PS3s sitting unused in shops in the US (yes, I know they use a different standard) and Sony can't even manage to manufacture PS3s for Europe.

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Zappo
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Posted: 17th Jan 2007 17:40
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Quote: "Well surely you'd require an additional PC to develop on for PS3 homebrew?"

Not with Linux on it. Open source development tools could be ported over to it whether Sony like it or not. Thats what Linux and open source is all about
Obviously, if you have a PC then it would no doubt be easier to develop on that but its always handy to compile and run code on the machine its being written for.
Quote: "Your average punter turns to the console for great games with no effort involved in setup. That's the majority of the console market at the moment, and selling a PS3 to the technological 'elite', and the high definition audio-visual cutting edge crowd, is not really that big a market, all things considered."

This is true, but the same goes for the Microsoft dev software. From what I have seen its not exactly aimed at the non technological elite. For those who do want to dabble in home development its a shame they have to pay to have a play.
Quote: "I my core worry, is that as a games machine - a pure and simple games machine - the PS3 is unfortunately a box of potential with not much yet to show."

I agree, but its not even released in the UK yet so you can't expect an instant catalogue of titles which push it to its limits. The potential is huge though so I won't write it off just yet.
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Chris K
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Posted: 17th Jan 2007 17:58
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Quote: "The potential is huge though so I won't write it off just yet."


Read: "The potential is marginally less than the 360"

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Jeku
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Posted: 17th Jan 2007 18:34
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Quote: "For those who do want to dabble in home development its a shame they have to pay to have a play."


The XNA 360 club is cheap considering the machine is cheaper than the PS3 to begin with. I just can't imagine someone attaching a keyboard to their PS3 and developing games *on* their TV set on the console. Call me crazy but I haven't developed on a TV since I had a Commodore 64

With XNA-GameStudio Express you have the 800lb. gorilla VS.NET, which talks to the 360 over the network. You also have an API that is so similar to managed Direct3D that many PC game developers already know how to port their games over without spending more than a few days learning.

While I would say homebrew on the PS3 is easier than Wii right now, the 360 still holds the crown. It did for the original Xbox (has anyone even played a PS2 homebrew game?) and it will for the 360.

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Kentaree
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Posted: 17th Jan 2007 18:41
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Homebrew on the Wii currently consists of Flash games. I'm hoping some sort of SDK will be released to allow the creation of Wii channels and what not, but, even though I love Nintendo and the Wii, I reckon that's the platform that's going to be least open for homebrew.

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The ARRAYinator
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Posted: 21st Jan 2007 22:34 Edited at: 21st Jan 2007 22:38
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Well I wouldent exactly say that microsoft owns on the homebrew front. Come on I know most of you on these forums boot linux and or develop games/software. programming on the machine your coding for is much more efficent compile times are faster plus you get the flexibility of choosing a language and not having your console next to your computer all the time. What sony's doing is opening there console up to the common people and not being hardcore buisnessmen like microsoft just so they can make a quick buck. What your saying is completely to the contrary of the opensource homebrew mindset which most of us on these forums believe.

As for the hd-dvd drive not being included it was a buisness tactic again by microsoft to make there console appear to be a better value but I can gurantee you its not. PS3 is a better value by hundreds of dollars comparibly and technically defeats the 360 in every spec. Sony though they appear to be ripping you off at first glance are giving us a much better deal if you know what your looking for. Unlike the wii and 360 who's life will most likely be 5 years like most consoles the ps3 will most likely be more as it has hardware that is truly state-of-the-art. For example 5 years down the road games reach the scale of 20gb on the pc lets say games on the wii and 360 will not be able to have the full game making the ps3 the frontier to port there game. look at gears of war looks great but its short playtime shows the flaws in not having a next-gen optical drive. And were not just talking about optical drives either in the future processing horsepower will be key for large scale environments with large amounts of entites interacting and the ps3's cell processor in conunction with a dedicated physics processer will be extremely important with keeping the framerate steady with large amounts of effects and entities on screen.

Eventually developers will notice the limitations in the 360 hardware and will realize the advantages of the ps3 and the crowd will follow. To say this will happen soon is probaly not realistic but seriously Sony has something good here homebrew,great value, most advanced hardware.

@ chrisk

Quote: "

Quote: "The potential is huge though so I won't write it off just yet."

Read: "The potential is marginally less than the 360"
"


Care to elaborate?

@Jeku

Why couldent you imagine programming on your couch? Its no different then programming on your laptop just pop in your keyboard and mouse and your good to go. Trust me ive booted linux off my ps3 so I should know,lol. Plus coding and browsing on the big screen is kinda cool.

You all may be thinking that im one of those fanboys but seriously im not. Im actually going to buy a wii when I save up enough. I play zelda at my friends house and its pretty cool. But I won's buy a 360 because its just not innovative in any way the whole popularity of it is because of the marketing skills of microsoft and there buisness tactics. The 360 would crumble if it werent for halo and gears and we all know it. Its all about hype and I wish the consoles that innovate in any way really should win at the end of the day because well the 360 is not innovative nor in hardware or gameplay. All this being said ill take my chances with my ps3 and the wii.



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Kentaree
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Posted: 22nd Jan 2007 00:02
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@ARRAYinator: The word from a lot of developers is that the PS3 is a monster of a machine to develop for, higher spec or no. Sony is just being idiotic thinking people will go with them for the name, and people seem to be growing sick of it (just see all the anti-sony posts here, and negative comments in the industry about sony).
Yes, the PS3 is powerful, more powerful than the XBOX360 (wont even mention the Wii, because it's not a next-gen console), but still, nobody has produced anything really worthwhile for it.

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Chris K
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Posted: 22nd Jan 2007 00:41
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PS3 IS NOT MORE POWERFUL THAN 360!!!

I have no idea where this came from!

Let me assure you that the PS3's Physics Processor is *USELESS*. It actually says in the Sony Docs that it *shouldn't be used for actually physics processing*. It ACTUALLY SAYS THAT. It should only be used for 'coordinating'.

I am working on (the engine for) a big game for PS3 and 360, and I *swear*, the PS3 is not faster.

As for Gears being short because its on a standard DVD... WHAT!?! They'd just put it on 3 dvds like they did with Blue Dragon.

You know how Bethseba (or whatever they are called) got PS3 loading times to match 360's on the Oblivion port?? They put two copies of the game on the disc, so it would only have to go half as far, because Bluray has terrible read speeds.

Unfortunately, you are clearly a fanboy and there is no convincing a fanboy.

PS3 is not crap, it is awesome, but the *only* things it can do over 360 is tilt sensing, and Bluray movies.

-= Out here in the fields, I fight for my meals =-
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Jeku
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Posted: 22nd Jan 2007 01:14
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Quote: "Eventually developers will notice the limitations in the 360 hardware and will realize the advantages of the ps3 and the crowd will follow."


Ask any developer who has programmed on a 360 *and* a PS3, and they will tell you which one is easier and cheaper to develop for. Right now there's absolutely no reason to make a PS3 port look any better than its 360 counterpart.

And this has been said over and again, the PS3 is *NOT* more powerful than a 360. You can't simply say "oh, x machine has 1GHz and y machine has 2GHz, therefore y machine is more powerful". You have to take into consideration bus size, RAM, the video card, etc. etc. Believe it or not the PS3 has some limitations with severe bottlenecks in their hardware. Comparing consoles with completely different hardware is not like comparing a 486 to a 386. There's dozens of things you have to consider.

But hey, if you want to program on your couch on a TV set, be my guest. I prefer to separate my console and my computer. After all with XNA your Xbox simply has to be connected to your network, so you don't need to have them right next to each other

Seriously, it's all about the games. I predict the Linux PS3 homebrew scene will be marginally more popular than PS2's BASIC software they released (which failed miserably due to lack of support).

One more thing: are you able to take advantage of the unique PS3 hardware when you program on it in Linux? Isn't your homebrew game going to be able to be ported to any Linux machine? I have NEVER seen a homebrew game on ANY system push it to its limits.

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Antidote
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Posted: 22nd Jan 2007 03:46
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I'm pretty sure someone posted a link to a site which outlined the way that the Cell processor works with dot product calculations and determined that in fact, the 360 is faster than the PS3.


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