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Geek Culture / Making money as a hobby programmer?

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Three Score
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Joined: 18th Jun 2004
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Posted: 5th May 2007 20:55
What is the best way to go about making money as a hobby programmer? like my best idea is to make websites for people for money, but there aren't many people that want this...and I can't make somethign "commercial-grade" just something like a personal site for people...

Is there any way to put my C and such skills to use for money? I will eventually have a job in a month or so, so I won't be able to go anyplace to work as a programmer, so I want somethign I could do at home...

there needs to be like a "rent a programmer" or something so that people can submit things they need, and programmers bid on how much they will do it for...(and this only be small stuff, not "please make me the most 1337 game ever")

Open86 --My Emulator (now with it's first super alpha release
I'm addicted to placebo's...I would quit but it wouldn't mean anything! lol
Zotoaster
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Location: Scotland
Posted: 5th May 2007 20:58
Make the best game/most useful application you can, then advertise like a goon.

Diggsey
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Location: On this web page.
Posted: 5th May 2007 21:06
Make a plugin for DBPro, and sell it for a reasonable price with many screenshots and demos of it in use. Maybe even a free version with limited features.

JerBil
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Location: Somewhere along the Z axis...
Posted: 5th May 2007 21:39
There is, but the competition can be mean:

http://www.rentacoder.com/RentACoder/default.asp

Ad Astra Per Asper
Cash Curtis II
19
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Location: Corpus Christi Texas
Posted: 5th May 2007 21:49
There are three ways to make money:

1. Make plugins for DBP and sell them.

2. Take contract jobs to prototype game concepts.

3. Make game development software.

It's a rough market, and trying to make money from pure gamdev will likely leave you disappointed.


Come see the WIP!
Zombie 20
17
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Location: Etters, PA
Posted: 5th May 2007 22:36
Cash Curtis- How many plugins are there already? And are the difficult to create? Not in it for the money, but curious about expanding the language further

Three Score
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Posted: 6th May 2007 01:58
Quote: "It's a rough market, and trying to make money from pure gamdev will likely leave you disappointed."


Well that's the thing, I'm not just going for gamedev, infact, I'd want to avoid it...game deving is the hardest thign to do...also, I really don't use dbp much now, I just really like this forum community

and that rentacoder thing is just..well...stupid..

Open86 --My Emulator (now with it's first super alpha release
I'm addicted to placebo's...I would quit but it wouldn't mean anything! lol
Raven
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Location: Hertfordshire, England
Posted: 6th May 2007 02:27
Check Monster.co.uk, or you're local version of that job market (used to know the specialist one for programmers) and take contract work. Most of it'll be database solution programming, which is well paid but personally i find it a snooze.

As far as game tools go, there is a major point in that.
Did you know that Mete Creigan (creator of Milkshape3D) is living extremely comfortably off of what he makes a year just from MS3D.

If you pick a market that is under-served for 'cheap' creation products. Then make something that people find useful, you can clean up quite well. Cheap Animation software is a good area to try for.. as most start at ~£300 (Animanium which features full IK animation for creating realistic animations without MoCap is £5,000!!)

There's no real alternative OS to Windows.
Linux is user-unfriendly, and developer-unfriendly.
MacOSX is well Mac-Only and expensive to boot.
AmigaOS4 will probably never be released publically or for the x86 system.

Or you could make a licenseable software deployment system, like Steam or Live. Something that makes purchasing and delivering software as painless as possible.

So many things you *could* do.. just think of something and go for it. There's money there to be made, you just have to make something that's needed; but make sure it's done and marketed in a way that people feel they need and want it too.

xplosys
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Playing: FPSC Multiplayer Games
Posted: 6th May 2007 02:49
Two trains of thought here.

1. Build a better mouse trap or develop a needed software app in a niche market. Difficult enough to do, and if you succceed, you'll have to have invetsors or enough money to advertise and rush it to market before someone with money replicates it and out-markets you.

2. Be the all around, do anything guy for people who need small custom db's and apps. Much easier but unless you sign up with a known company, it's tough to get started on your own.


Quote: "there needs to be like a "rent a programmer" or something so that people can submit things they need, and programmers bid on how much they will do it for..."

That might make a good forum.

Best.

I'm sorry, my answers are limited. You must ask the right question.

Three Score
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Posted: 6th May 2007 04:07
Quote: "There's no real alternative OS to Windows.
Linux is user-unfriendly, and developer-unfriendly.
MacOSX is well Mac-Only and expensive to boot.
AmigaOS4 will probably never be released publically or for the x86 system."


are you living under a rock!?
First of all, If I were making something, I'd make it PORTABLE, Really it's not too hard to make things portable, at least among OS(archs are a bit harder)
If i had any idea, I might try to make something like an animation program..


anyone have any idea of what other kinds of programs are needed cheaply?

Open86 --My Emulator (now with it's first super alpha release
I'm addicted to placebo's...I would quit but it wouldn't mean anything! lol
Benjamin
21
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Location: France
Posted: 6th May 2007 04:08
Quote: "Really it's not too hard to make things portable"

It can certainly make development take longer though.

Tempest (DBP/DBCe)
Multisync V1 (DBP/DBCe)
Darth Vader
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Location: Adelaide SA, I am the only DB user here!
Posted: 7th May 2007 14:14
I was going to recommed making a small simple game. Their usually the addicting ones and if people like it it will sell! But then I read that you didn't want to do game dev. Try making an animation tool!
Good Luck!


Van B
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Posted: 7th May 2007 14:41
There's very few avenues if your being realistic. Writing databases might seem that something you can do because you can code, but really writing these things to do their job properly, and actually please the customer is a different matter.

One avenue that I'd like to see is machima, like an advanced animation system that would let you make movies. If you had some model making partners, then writing an app to let people move characters around, something like Gary's Mod, well I could see people really getting into that. Lionheads The Movies was little more than a gimmick, people wanted soooo much more from their movies, and nobody has bothered to provide it in any tangible form yet. DBPro is actually geared up really nicely for an application like this, hell it's not like the AVI format is too complex when uncompressed, it's definitely doable.


Good guy, Good guy, Wan...
Virtual X
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Posted: 7th May 2007 15:46
You could start by creating 'Thief Online' , even today that game is superb lol, I downloaded Thief 2X, brilliant fun with a female protagonist called Zaya woohoo.
Three Score
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Posted: 13th May 2007 07:46
My best idea so far is creating an "infinite-precision" numbering system supporting ints, floats, signing, fractions, and maybe even limited support of "irrational" numbers...that I actually have an idea on how to support too...

but make this a nice C++ library, full featured and such...and then try selling it for a few months...and if it doesn't sell, then make it free...but the way I do it I think is fairly genius, and even if I don't sell it much, I may even somehow get bought or something...

yea, high dreams, but it's hope...lol

Open86 --My Emulator (now with it's first super alpha release
I'm addicted to placebo's...I would quit but it wouldn't mean anything! lol
Cash Curtis II
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Location: Corpus Christi Texas
Posted: 13th May 2007 21:14
Quote: "My best idea so far is creating an "infinite-precision" numbering system supporting ints, floats, signing, fractions, and maybe even limited support of "irrational" numbers...that I actually have an idea on how to support too..."

A calculator plugin, basically? I don't think it would be that hard, but it would be pretty slow and have limited applications, thus extraordinarily limited sales. You could make that a free plugin for DBP and people would thank you.


Come see the WIP!
Robin
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Location: United Kingdom
Posted: 13th May 2007 21:41
It's funny how it seems the majority of people making money off DBP are people who have made dlls or apps designed to aid game creation with dbp...while, with the obvious exeption of starwraith and one or two other games, not much is being made from actual game creation...bit of a shame in a way.

Also, maybe I'm just out of the loop, but is there a recent (ie. last few months) commercial game (ie. it is on sale either online of in stores and generating revenue) which has been made in dbp?

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Matt Rock
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Posted: 13th May 2007 22:40
I've had mild success with DBP and using it to turn a profit. After my first game project crasheddisasterously, we (my friends and I, the people who make up the ranks at MISoft) started making trivia games for websites and personal business applications for local businesses. You'll be very pleasantly surprised at how much money you can make from the simplest of applications. You wouldn't be able to quit your day job or anything (at least not with how we did it or with our volume), but you could make around $500+ for every app you make. Usually they included register/POS training applications, SKU software for small local grocery stores (usually an app to track shoplifting trends and silly things like that), and a few stores had us make info CD-R's that they'd burn and give away to their customers, usually with stuff like store history, menus, all that. If we had tried to do that full time and had the motivation to really try to find stores, we probably could have earned a proper living doing that. In the very least, I made enough to pay back all the money we'd invested as a team into game development up to that point. It's worth a try if you live in a city with some small shops and whatnot .

Some things I learned along the way:

* Each application is more than likely going to be unique... sell on that! I've found that when I told someone that a competitor had bought the same program, they didn't want to pay as much, or didn't want to buy it at all. But if the software is unique, they usually offer more money overall. But don't be a jerk and say it's unique when it isn't. We never did that, it's just pathetic business ethics imo. So if I inspire anyone with this, please grant me that one favor and don't lie to your customer(s). Simple request but I'm sure someone won't adhere

* Negotiate the cost. When we went in with a set price, people were usually saying things like "bah, no thanks." If you say "what do you think would be fair?" then usually they'll be fair, and if they aren't, take a queue from my next tip...

* Stress the amount of labor that went into it. More often than not you're making custom applications for each business, and those take quite a bit of time to complete... make sure your client knows that before you start negotiating a price.

* Don't charge like an idiot. We made a program once and thought the company in question was so big that we could easily charge $1500 for the training app. WRONG! Burn ! After almost a full month of work, we had to scrap because they cancelled as soon as they'd heard the cost. So don't take the size of the business into consideration when pricing your apps, lol.

* Don't promise anything you can't personally deliver. I'm lucky because I work with friends, but on occasion they couldn't get stuff done on time, and so I would end up doing work in place of them, and one time it was too overwhelming and we had to cancel (and lose that client)... don't let that happen to you, it's truly miserable when it happens and you'll feel like crap about it, or at least I did.

* Last but not least, make sure you're always available for support. Offer an e-mail address or a website (if you have one) and provide your clients with means to get in contact with you. If they need an update or a bug fix, don't hesitate to do it. We're STILL doing updates on occasion. Oh, and some companies will actually pay you for those updates... not a bad deal in the end.

Hope these tips help someone. It worked for me but not for long, I didn't have enough time to really get dedicated to it. I'd love to see someone turn a SERIOUS profit with this


"In an interstellar burst, I'm back to save the universe"
Kevin Picone
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Posted: 13th May 2007 23:32 Edited at: 13th May 2007 23:40
Three Score.

Not to sound critical, but that seems like a fairly limited opportunity.

Quote: " and then try selling it for a few months...and if it doesn't sell, then make it free.."


Unless you're clearly identified who the potential customers are and how you're going to drive them into your sales funnel. You're pretty much guaranteeing the latter here. Creating awareness, let alone educating potential customers of the benefits of a product can take some serious time.

My 2 cents - Research is your friend, it's what protects us from become another 'I tried and failed' bleeding heart online.

The number one issue that comes to mind would be - Don't assume there's a market just because the topic interests you. I'm not saying pick something you're not interested in, but for every idea there are various off shoot ideas also. Jump on google and invest a some time hunting them down. You might find your self a several niche(s) ideas that you can directly plug into.

What you're looking for really is a way of identifying the risk/effort against the possible return. It's typical to write a business plan. Which is just a bloated document that analyzes the potential of an idea. There's no guarantee, it still might all go south, but at least were trying to make a more informed decision than any assumption.

There's loads of this stuff online. Everybody is trying to get rich fast, ironically selling 'how to get rich fast products" .. It's not easy, but it's not rocket science either.

Hopefully the following tidbits will help you formulate some answer when evaluating product ideas.. Those being Research (what to make and for whom), Marketing (How are you going to find and bring buyers to you), Production (building the product), distribution. Form here you can estimate of the products return over time.


Quote: "
1) Research

-> Product

* Who are your competitors ? (Free, Commerical)

* Compare your product design against the competition. (Find Strengths and weaknesses)

* What is different about your product (How does you solution differ from the competitions in terms of the customer!)

-> Customers

Who is the product targeted at ? (male/female, age, interest groups, education, businesses, home users, language )
What % of the target audience actually has the
ability to buy ?

Assuming a %0.5 to %1 conversion rate (people who view the demo and then buy), is the audience big enough to warrant servicing ?

Why would they buy your solution, rather than a competitors ?

* Surveys

What do the customers actually want from this product ?

What are their most important concerns (platform, functionality, price, support, etc) ?

Note: Interestingly tidbit is that there's a correlation between people who fill out surveys & interested (potential) buyers.
* Price
What's this product worth to them ?

* Resellers& Licensing
Are there opportunities for the product to be licensed by businesses/corporations.

* RISK
What risks are associated with this product ? (Competition, Life span, Intellectually properties, Trademarks even ..).



2) Marketing

* How do people find these type of products ? (print, word and mouth, search engines, forums, news letters, magazines, banner ads, etc etc)

* Are there established interest groups that you can plug into ? How large are these groups, who is already servicing these interest groups ?

* How do you intend to attract customers to your solution, over somebody else's solution ?

* What costs are associated with marketing the product ?


3) Production

> Requirements

* What is required to build the product ?
(Artwork, Sound, Code, Manual, Web )

-> Time
* How long will it take to create ?

-> Costs
* What costs are associated with creating the product. (tools, 3rd parties)



4) Distribution

-> Resellers ?

Will 3rd parties be able to sell the product for your

-> Costs

* What costs are associated with the distribution of the product.
Bandwidth, customer support,


5) Sales

- Dump all the info into spread sheet. So you can see all your costs factored against the projected exposure of your product. So if even the most conservative estimations produce something you're happy with, then off you go..

"



Objectivity is needed here. Imagine your trying to write a sound document (doesn't have to be 100 pages or anything) that weighs all the arguments together. Then have some trusted 3rd parties pick over the document. Perhaps they can see a different angle on some issues. What you're left with hopefully, is a reasoned plan of action.

Three Score
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Posted: 13th May 2007 23:57
hmm..I found a library that is already fairly complete(been being developed since 1991!) and it is opensource, so I will probably make mine at least free...

Open86 --My Emulator (now with it's first super alpha release
I'm addicted to placebo's...I would quit but it wouldn't mean anything! lol
Jeku
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Location: Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada
Posted: 15th May 2007 01:39
Quote: "Don't charge like an idiot. We made a program once and thought the company in question was so big that we could easily charge $1500 for the training app. WRONG! Burn ! After almost a full month of work, we had to scrap because they cancelled as soon as they'd heard the cost. So don't take the size of the business into consideration when pricing your apps, lol."


You mean you started working on the project before getting the initial payment and/or negotiating a final cost?

Josh
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Location: Pompey, Great Britain =D
Posted: 17th May 2007 20:25
Quote: "Or you could make a licenseable software deployment system, like Steam or Live. Something that makes purchasing and delivering software as painless as possible."


If anybody is interested in doing this then I am interested in working with and supporting you. I can provide many of the things that may be needed, specifically on the server side of things.

Alquerian
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Posted: 17th May 2007 21:01
I actually adopted into DBP on contract work. I was first given the contract (multi-year) then I decided to use DBP for development. I have since done more contract jobs in DBP and Ogre with my next job likely to be with A6.

I think the reason why I acquire so much work is because I try to be versatile, able to adapt to any situation, no job too big (but definately thousands of jobs which I consider too small). A lot of it is a matter of social networking, knowing people and them knowing your skills and talents.

Sadly, this often means that you must take work home with you, read and work on the weekends and sometimes into the wee hours of the morning. I say 'sadly' because it leaves little room for a social life, which I greatly enjoy.

This also means that you are not afraid of a challenge, not afraid of accepting something with the supposition of learning alot (if not most) as you go. With this, confidence is key.

Somewhere in my free time I work on my own personal projects. TerrainScape is obviously a tool for DBP, and it is true that the tools for DBP rival the actual number of games made with DBP.

I also think that having a presence online is very important. For people to know who you are, and what you do, what areas you specialize in. This has brought forth opportunities repeatedly in my particular situation.

Regretfully, one thing that I should do that I haven't yet is release some freebies. Nothing gets you more positive attention than good work for free. This is a good way to get your foot in the door, for people to see your work and take it somewhat seriously. The better the work, the more serious they will take it. Doing this and being patient will pay off in the long run, if you do it right. Don't release every piece of crap that you code, release good stuff without giving away any trade secrets or something you plan to market in the future.

Going to conferences and conventions is very useful also. You get to learn about what is coming up, how things work, you get to meet some people in the field as well. They do come with a price, sometimes in upwards of a few thousand dollars, but they can be well worth it. I would probably wait to go to conferences (unless they are free) until you started pulling in a fairly decent income from your work.

Hope the advice helps

Visit the Wip!
Hobgoblin Lord
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Posted: 18th May 2007 02:53
Quote: "There is, but the competition can be mean:

http://www.rentacoder.com/RentACoder/default.asp"


Yes and with that post my competition just increased quite a bit

Seriously the above is a great site, you just need to bid on alot of projects in the beggining to get your start, it becomes easier once you have a few under your belt.

Three Score
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Posted: 19th May 2007 03:16
Quote: "Quote: "There is, but the competition can be mean:

http://www.rentacoder.com/RentACoder/default.asp"

Yes and with that post my competition just increased quite a bit

Seriously the above is a great site, you just need to bid on alot of projects in the beggining to get your start, it becomes easier once you have a few under your belt."


I really don't like it...Everything there is either some strong design stuff with flash(graphics), delphi, or VB...I saw some guy that wanted a HTML website converted into a professional website in flash with all those nifty effects like most band websites have....for under $50...to me, that just seems crazy...the only crazier thing is that people posted saying they would do it..

I just don't think it's right for me...

Open86 --My Emulator (now with it's first super alpha release
I'm addicted to placebo's...I would quit but it wouldn't mean anything! lol
Matt Rock
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Posted: 19th May 2007 03:19
Quote: "You mean you started working on the project before getting the initial payment and/or negotiating a final cost?"

Yep, but hey, I learned REALLY fast not to do that again, lol. Contract work can be pretty tricky at times, and I'm definitely not in love with it, but you learn a lot from each project you do, or at least I did


"In an interstellar burst, I'm back to save the universe"

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