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Geek Culture / Planning for the 2007 Text Adventure Competition

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Matt Rock
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Posted: 7th May 2007 00:16 Edited at: 7th May 2007 00:19
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Well, it's getting close to that time of year, and now I'm starting to lay out the groundwork for the 2007 text adventure competition. I'm hoping to get it up and going in the first week of June, and this year we'd judge the entrants in September, giving everyone more time to make games than they had last year. I figured I would ask everyone what they thought of last year's competition and get some general opinions about what I should keep the same this year, and also, what I should change. I'm doing it here in Geek Culture instead of the Game Design Theory boards (where the contest will happen) because I want more opinions on things this time around.

Even though we made a big deal out of not needing media last year, almost everyone put some form of media in their games. So this year, either media will be blocked entirely, or alternatively, we could have a separate award for Best Media. Which would you prefer we did with this year's competition, and why?

In terms of programming the games, almost everyone leaned heavily toward the technical aspects, with complicated parser systems and long queues of commands, and less toward story development. It was the exact opposite of my hopes, really: the goal was to get people to focus their attention on story development, and the technical aspects/ coding techniques should have been secondary. This time around, I'm considering a serious ruling on this, but I'm not sure where to go with it. I could take away the technical aspect entirely this year, so it's entirely focused on the story writing, and this might inspire some of the newer TGC members to get involved. Alternatively, I could knock down the importance of the technical design and make it worth fewer points in the overall score. Or maybe I should keep it the way it was last year? I don't know, I need your opinions!

Even though the contest isn't starting until June and isn't being judged until September, I want to get judges sorted early this time. If you'd like to judge the games, feel free to e-mail me. You have to be extremely proficient in the English language (especially spelling, grammar, etc.), and you should be fairly talented with DarkBASIC Professional (unless we undermine the technical aspect this year).

Last but not least, last year we had a bit of a scandal with our prizes. A company called VDIUK offered a prize and didn't fork it over when the contest was over. So this year, I'm going to secure prizes from only trustworthy sources, and I'll be sure to do this before the contest is posted. Does anyone have any suggestions for prizes? What would you guys like to see us give away this time around? I need to know soon so I can contact prize vendors before the contest starts.


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Tom J
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Posted: 7th May 2007 01:09
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If you want the story development to be more important then make the scoring like this
Story: /30
Technical: /10

Being a judge for this would be pretty cool. Maybe I could be one?

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Zotoaster
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Posted: 7th May 2007 02:02
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Oh, I'll be a judge! I'm awesome with DBPro, and my English is good! (I even use apostrophes, something that people don't seem to like )

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Matt Rock
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Posted: 7th May 2007 04:20
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Awesome, finding judges will be easier this year than last year so far, hehe. I had gotten a lot of e-mails last summer from people saying things like "d00d eye got uber l337 haxor spelling skillz, lemme judge, gimme da gamez!" Made my head explode a few times... thank goodness for duct tape

Last time around the scoring system was based on originality, story development, writing ability, and technical design. Each was worth ten points, so you could earn a maximum of 40/40. So in effect the technical design only counted towards a quarter of the full score, but it seemed that a lot of the entrants were more worried about that 10 points than the other 30. I need to figure out if either that was my fault for saying something wrong, or if people would just rather focus on technical aspects more than the story (which sort of negates the purpose of the contest, lol).

Both of you guys (colosseum & Zotoaster) should e-mail me tonight or tomorrow so I have your e-mail addresses handy when we launch the competition. I've seen tons of posts from both of you so as far as I'm concerned, you're in


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Zombie 20
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Posted: 7th May 2007 07:37
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well this looks interesting, i'm going to watch for entries. I might join .

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Hobgoblin Lord
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Posted: 7th May 2007 07:48
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Well to avoid the worry there Matt just drop tech in a way. Last time you asked people to send you the sourcecode (so of course they will focus on it), this time just judge tech on lack of bugs and skip the source requirement.

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Darth Vader
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Posted: 7th May 2007 14:08
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Matt I'm in Last time I had school work get in the way but this time I have a really great story! I think you should give more points for Creativer writing and Grammar as thats the main focus of a 'Text' adventure. Also Will you be using US Spelling or UK? I mean does it really matter?


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Dazzag
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Posted: 7th May 2007 16:05
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If I remember rightly there aren't that many diffences in spellings (one hundred and something?) and most of them you can't really see being used in a text adventure. But why not allow for both? Not quite sure how COLOR/COLOUR could be used when typing a command (obviously display should be different for a description) but hardly rocket science to allow both. Or have one as an alias of the other.

Out of interest, is this competition anything to do with that big IF (Interactive Fiction - modern name for text adventures) competition thats been going for a while? They were always a bit of a laugh to try out.

Used to love text adventures (Gnome Ranger on the Spectrum, as a good example, had an unbelievable parser for the time and size of computer). I remember having PAW on the Speccy. Awesome adventure creator. Made me make a point and click adventure game creator on the Mac for my final year comp sci. degree project. Was the only way I could persuade my lecturers to basically make a game for the project (you had to come up with a good business idea). Adventure games for teachers to make for their young kiddies to teach them stuff (while having fun blah blah blah). Amusingly one of the examples I created was a full on guts and war effort

Damn. Getting drawn into the text adventure pull again... nooooo... no time.... must ignore and get back to work.... Where was DB and large net communities back in 1991??? So much free time for years (who the hell goes to lectures???).....

Cheers

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Moondog
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Posted: 7th May 2007 16:20
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I got half way done with my last years entry, but never finished in time...tried to cram too much into it. I might try the comp out again, come up with a different game this time.

MOONDOG


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Zotoaster
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Posted: 7th May 2007 20:11
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Matt, I emailed you, just so you know

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Tom J
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Posted: 7th May 2007 22:49
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Quote: "Matt, I emailed you"


Me too

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Matt Rock
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Posted: 8th May 2007 00:14
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Cool cool, I'm sort of running around like a chicken with the head lopped off because of the EE release but I'll be sure to note you both as judges .

That might be the best idea Hob, and it would definitely save the judges a ton of time. Last year it was pretty monotonous to play the game and then go through code for hours on end. Is anyone opposed to that idea? Was anyone really into the coding aspect last year? no one really seemed to enthused, hehe.

We'll allow both US and UK spelling... as long as it's in English, I'm cool with it. And to Dazzag, nope, we're unaffiliated with any other contests. This year, I'm not going to invite people from Gamedev to join us, afterall, no one from Game Dev (that I can think of anyway) even joined, so the 2007 competition will only be open to TGC members. I like keeping things in-house anyway, hehe.

If there's anything you guys really liked or disliked (or downright hated) about last year's competition, be sure to let me know ASAP. I'm pretty certain this contest will start during that first week of June, rain or shine, so you guys only have until then to convince me to change things, hehe


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Killswitch
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Posted: 8th May 2007 02:04
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Well, I'd like to suggest that the competition be postponed by one or maybe even two weeks. A large majority of the people on these forums are quite young, and a lot of us have exams during June. I was going to enter last year, but with the stress of exams I never got started, and I'm sure that will be the same for others.

Still, that's a fairly selfish suggestion.

I'd also like to suggest that you don't drop the technical side completly. Instead of awarding marks by examining source code marks should be deducted for obvious bugs i.e. the judges actually encountered them during testing. Ok, sure it may be possible that a game is full of bugs and a judge misses all of them on his play through, but that's not very likely to happen - and the threat of this will encourage people to churn out bug-free games.

One final thing I'd like to ask is if Ruby is a language that is permissable for this competition?

~Heed my word hobags: Jism~
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Matt Rock
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Posted: 8th May 2007 18:53
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Quote: "Well, I'd like to suggest that the competition be postponed by one or maybe even two weeks. A large majority of the people on these forums are quite young, and a lot of us have exams during June."

Duly noted . Maybe we can begin this year's competition during the first week of July instead, and wrap it up in October? What does everyone think of that? Then it could be a summer project for the younger participants.

Quote: "I'd also like to suggest that you don't drop the technical side completly."

I've given this a lot of thought so far and I think I'm with you here; we might drop the supplied source requirement and only focus on bugs we run into. I'm confident in the judges that we have so far that they can find bugs and know enough about programming to have a good guess as to what might be causing those bugs, so we should be able to keep the technical aspect of the competition alive this year. But on that same token I want to downplay the technical aspect... it won't be so much about design as it would be about functionality. Would that work for everyone? This way you could focus more of your attention on story development and less on trying to "out-parser" the competition, hehe.

One thing that hasn't really been discussed fully yet is media. I'm still trying to figure out how I want media to work with the competition this year (if at all). Anyone have an opinion on this?


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Killswitch
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Posted: 8th May 2007 19:11
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It's a text adventure game - I don't think media should be allowed.

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Moondog
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Posted: 8th May 2007 19:13 Edited at: 8th May 2007 19:18
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no media what so ever...pure text...no ASCII art, no BMPs, no nothing...i think entries should be submitted as purely source code..this will rule out any graphics being used or created.

i remember when text adventures were just that, just text, it's a type of genre, and i think the comp should be very strict about having no graphics what so ever.

this will also give people a chance to become very descriptive in writing scenes, and setting the mood for the game.

thats my opinion

i don't mind the comp being postponed either, this would give people a longer chance to think over what they want to create

MOONDOG


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Dazzag
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Posted: 8th May 2007 19:26
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I dunno. Games like Fish, Knight Orc etc were pretty decent with the odd splash of graphics. Wasn't as if it was on every single location either. Plus, if I remember rightly, it didn't show the graphics unless you pressed a button at the top of the screen, then it came down like a projector screen. Click the picture and it went away. Heh, there are a lot of filters to make photos look like Atari ST and Amiga pictures. Would be cute to make it look a *lot* like a game that came out for those computers.

Out of interest you say Darkbasic Pro, but is that the only language allowed (what about DBC)? Someone mentioned Ruby, so is it any language, or just DBP (and perhaps DBC)?

Cheers

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Alquerian
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Posted: 8th May 2007 19:29
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Right, I would be interested to know if we could use any language.

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Dr Manette
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Posted: 8th May 2007 22:30
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I agree that the technical side of the scoring should be downplayed significantly. Besides the fact that I got the worst score in tech, it just doesn't make too much sense. Some one can make an amazing project but have a crappy story and yet get a better score than someone with a better story and a few bugs.

Also, no media entirely; however, if someone wants to divide up their screen using characters, that should be fine. And yes, the dates should be from July to October. I couldn't start until late June because of finals (tests) and school.


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Alquerian
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Posted: 8th May 2007 22:39
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I think that technical scoring should be done, but perhaps differently and as everyone suggests, at a lesser scale. Perhaps a technical rating of how the game functions, toggle-able options, making a text game as fancy and exciting as possible. For example, the ability to toggle a room-layout display visually depicting exits and directions you may go, the use of colored fonts for added emphasis on certain objects and actions, the amount of interactivity implemented into the game is also a technical feature which in turn adds to the gameplay if done correctly.

My two cents

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Jeku
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Posted: 9th May 2007 05:00
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We should be able to have ASCII art for showing a little map or something.

And we should be able to use PlayBasic.

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Chily Dog
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Posted: 9th May 2007 05:10
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I'm just really just glad it's in June, May/April are the two worst months of school work. Having summer to do the bulk of the project is a good call.
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Cash Curtis II
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Posted: 9th May 2007 05:32
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Quote: "And we should be able to use PlayBasic."

That's a fantastic idea. The EXEs would be around 50k for the whole game

I think I'd be interested in entering this year. I've always wanted to make an IF game. I would have to work on it casually though, because I'm so busy with GH.


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Dazzag
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Posted: 9th May 2007 09:27 Edited at: 9th May 2007 09:57
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Quote: "We should be able to have ASCII art for showing a little map or something"
Ah! It burns it burns!!!!

Quote: "Some one can make an amazing project but have a crappy story and yet get a better score than someone with a better story and a few bugs"
It is a difficult balance. On one hand you can have the most brilliant story with great puzzles and everything, and on the other it may be let down by a crappy parser and the thing dying now and again. Having to type "GET BOOK", "PICK UP BOOK", "SWIPE BOOK" and endless other varieties before you realise that there is no book object in the room (just in room desc) or it turns out you need the exact phrase "GET THE BOOK" to get the object just makes the whole thing totally annoying and a bad experience. Personally I don't think tech or story side should be mentioned like that at all. IMHO the games should be judged as how good an adventure game the judge thought they were. And that includes everything. Using a rigid massive % of the marking to the story (and puzzles) would mean a game that happened to have the readability and puzzles of something like a classic novel would *have* to win. Even it was written on a Speccy, crashed every 5 mins, and had the parsing capability of a chimp. On the other hand a rather rubbish story with not exactly brilliant puzzles, but amazingly coded with a wonderful parser (I've seen games where you type something like "get the rope then tie it to the boat then get into the boat..." and it would work. Brilliant.) would *have* to come last. Nah, all about the whole experience if you ask me.

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Dazzag
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Posted: 9th May 2007 15:28
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Also if you do allow other programming languages, does it have to be a programming *language*, and not, for example, one of those IF creation utilities? Personally I would rather the challenge of programming it from scratch, but I can see the appeal of a ready made system especially for a short development period. Basically if you want to build the biggest and best story then it would give you more time for that rather than programming the interface and parser. Plus anybody without the required programming skills, but fantastic text adventure stories and puzzles, can jump straight in without major problems (such as trying to understand programming basics).

What do you think? Or perhaps split the grouping? One class for DBP (and/or other programming languages), and one for games written in text adventure game creators?

Cheers

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Current fave quote : "She was like a candle in the wind.... unreliable...."
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Matt Rock
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Posted: 9th May 2007 23:27 Edited at: 9th May 2007 23:29
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I'm definitley opposed to those IF creation engines... I think all entries should need to be programmed from scratch. But it will be somewhat difficult to know if entrants cheat if we aren't requiring source code, so it's a bit of a catch-22. Anyway, Part of this contest last year was targeted towards beginning programmers, to give them an early project that wouldn't be too taxing and might teach them some of the very basics, like using functions and subroutines and all that fun stuff.

In terms of computer languages, I suppose there's no harm in opening it up to all languages, so long as the game has actually been coded by the entrant. Maybe we could ask the entrant to tell us what language their game was written in, and maybe provide an example of their source (even if it's only one line) just to be sure they actually coded it. I guess this could be cheated also but I dunno, I can't think of a better solution, hehe.

Also about the technical aspect, if we keep that score alive this year I think it's going to be based entirely on functionality... the score will go down if the judges encounter bugs, glitches, etc. This way it doesn't matter how complicated your parser system is, and in fact it would probably deter some people from making complicated parser systems in fear of bugs, or at least I think it would.

I agree about the media, that there shouldn't be any. The competition should be as heavily story-driven as possible, in my opinion anyway, and the user shouldn't be allowed to use media to depict where you are, what you're doing, and/ or what you see. But I really dig Jeku's ascii art idea, so I'm sort of lost on this hehe. I guess this one falls into the court of public opinion. But if we allow any art whatsoever, I think it should only be ascii art, and I also think we should have strict limitations on what you can do/ show with it.


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Diggsey
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Posted: 9th May 2007 23:41
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@Matt Rock
wouldn't it be better if entrants were required to post their full source? Otherwise, people won't learn from it as much. Also, the code doesn't need to be judged, just there to show that it was programmed.


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Dr Manette
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Posted: 10th May 2007 00:19
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Exactly, you need the source code to verify that the person actually coded it. Also, we should allow ascii, but only for a single title page and for a map.

Please restrict this to programming, this is, after all, mainly a programming community. Plus, part of the fun is designing how your game works, and people with utilities get a leg up with premade features.


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Zotoaster
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Posted: 10th May 2007 00:23
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If I am to judge, I wouldn't really mind briefly looking over the source code. Just aslong as I dont have to go into very much depth.

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Alquerian
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Right, I think that the source code should be supplied by each entrant.

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Dazzag
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Quote: "This way it doesn't matter how complicated your parser system is"
It's your competition. Only thing is that I chucked quite a few adventures back in the day just because of crappy parsing. I don't care how good a story it is if it takes 20 attempts to get a correct command to work (you know giving the box to the guard will work, but *exactly* what command works??? If it takes more than 5 then it's straight in the bin). If story massively effects the score more than technical then you may as well just do a story competition IMHO. Why not have some kind of silver awards for best story, best tech, and then best overall?

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Alquerian
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Posted: 10th May 2007 01:39
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Quote: "Why not have some kind of silver awards for best story, best tech, and then best overall?"


I think this is a great idea. I have a feeling you will have a much larger turnout in this years number of entries. I think I would like to enter this year. Just for clarification's sake, can we use VB?

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Wandering Swordsman
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Posted: 10th May 2007 03:55 Edited at: 10th May 2007 04:31
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I tried to participate last time, but had to withdraw due to 'things' beyond my control.
I’d love to give this another shot!

I’d prefer if other non-TGC languages (C, Java, etc) were not allowed. (PlayBasic being an exception of course.)

I haven't touched DBP yet and am only familiar with DBC, please let DBC be an option.

Requested Allowed:
US, UK & ‘Canadian’ spellings.
DarkBASIC Classic.
DarkBASIC Pro
PlayBasic
Colored text
Source code
If the Source is not released to the general public, then at least to the judges.

Requested Disallowed:
Images
Music
Sound
ASCII Art
If text art is allowed, perhaps it could either not effect the scoring or be worth a very small amount?
IF creation utilities (Languages only.)

I’m really excited about this. Bonus kiwi! -->

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Matt Rock
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Posted: 10th May 2007 07:37
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Quote: "I’d prefer if other non-TGC languages (C, Java, etc) were not allowed."

Is there any particular reason why you're opposed to it? Really, most of these languages shouldn't have any real advantage over DBC/P if the competition is restricted to text adventures. Maybe we could compile a list of acceptable languages the game could be made in?

I'm starting to agree with you guys about including the source, I can definitely see its value and so long as we aren't actually judging the code this year, then it should be a benefit to have to include it, even if only to keep cheaters from using prefab engines.

I can't remember who it was (I want to say Jeku or Van, but I'm not entirely sure), but in last year's planning thread someone mentioned that not everyone has artistic ability, and not including media would increase the draw value, so I'm seriously considering a "ban" on media inclusion this time around. And it doesn't seem as though anyone is opposed to it, so I think we're on the right track with that .

Quote: "I chucked quite a few adventures back in the day just because of crappy parsing."

I couldn't agree more, that's why if we keep a tech rating it would mostly be directed at functionality... if the judges need to stop and figure out the commands for any notable length of time it would negatively affect your game's technical score. So long as I'm not spending three hours per entry looking through source code, I'll be happy, hehe.

Quote: "If text art is allowed, perhaps it could either not effect the scoring or be worth a very small amount?"

The competition is mostly directed at story development, at least it was last year and it is so far this year (unless someone convinces me otherwise, hehe). Last year we allowed media to be included in entries, but the media wasn't judged... I think if we allow ascii art we shouldn't judge that either, unless we do what Dazzag suggests and have categorized awards, then we could give an award to best ascii art or something.

I like that idea quite a bit btw, having multiple awards. I doubt I'd be able to find enough prize sponsors to give an actual award for each category though, so I'm sure it would just be a written award, hehe. I'm still trying to figure out who to contact for prizes this year... obviously I'll ask TGC and Underware Design again this year, although with last year's contest only turning out a limited number of entries I wouldn't be shocked if either said no. Does anyone have any ideas as to who I should ask for prizes? Or alternatively, does anyone have any realistic prizes they'd like me to try and get?


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Alquerian
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Posted: 10th May 2007 07:50
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Quote: "Or alternatively, does anyone have any realistic prizes they'd like me to try and get?"


Perhaps Arteria would offer up a prize or two, maybe a model pack or a subscription? Talk to Stevie (I think that is his name) and sell him on the point that
Quote: "if these coders are this good without any media, imagine how great they would be showcasing a handful of your wonderful models"


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Alquerian
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Posted: 10th May 2007 07:55
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I will offer up a free copy of TerrainScape* to the pool of goodies. I know I would like to be a contestant, however if anyone would have any reason to not like my wonderful idea, please say something.

*Disclaimer - TerrainScape could theoretically still be under development at the time of Judging for this competition, that being said I think I have bought myself a little extra time

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Hobgoblin Lord
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Posted: 10th May 2007 08:00
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Quote: "I’d prefer if other non-TGC languages (C, Java, etc) were not allowed. (PlayBasic being an exception of course.)"


well there is the DarkGDK. (C++)

As for the source thing whatever you prefer, it will likely keep me from entering. Not because I do not like to share, but the code I would be using would probably be based on a Dynamic Storytelling engine I have been working on for quite awhile now (would have actually given me a reason to start my next version) and that is an animal I do not care to share for now.

http://forum.thegamecreators.com/?m=forum_view&t=73324&b=8
My RPG WIP, check it out
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Jeku
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Posted: 10th May 2007 08:27 Edited at: 10th May 2007 08:28
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Out of curiosity, if the technical side isn't important this time around, why do you care if someone uses a text adventure "creator"? None of the other contests (retro, etc.) from around the indie sites have any restriction on language. Many of the winning games were made with so-called "real" languages like DBP, etc, and not "creator" engines like T3DGM.

Just seems like you're making too many rules for such a simple concept. Technically DBP can be considered an advantage over C++ to some people.

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Dazzag
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Posted: 10th May 2007 09:08
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Quote: "I'm seriously considering a "ban" on media inclusion this time around"
Why not just state that it does not effect the rating given to the game? If I was doing one (damn, must stop getting pulled in...) then I would love to add a Fish like optional graphic for a few rare locations. Shouldn't effect the game (especially if you choose not to see the graphics) and after all a game is for life, not just for this competition...

As for prizes, I would say anything that has at least something to do with adventure games. Perhaps one of those programs to help write novels, or a book on game design.

Quote: "I’d prefer if other non-TGC languages (C, Java, etc) were not allowed"
Why? If you want a decent amount of entries then why restrict yourself? I think you need to give a good reason why not rather than "I'd prefer".

Cheers

I am 99% probably lying in bed right now... so don't blame me for crappy typing
Current fave quote : "She was like a candle in the wind.... unreliable...."
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Zotoaster
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Posted: 10th May 2007 12:59 Edited at: 10th May 2007 13:00
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No offence Wandering Swordsman, but your requests are a little specific to your own tastes I think it should be averaged out a little. Here's what I think:

I think source should be included to keep competition insteresting, despite it being mostly about story-lines, we don't want a coder's talent going to waste.

As for no media, I agree, no images and stuff, but I think other external files, like classification trees (sorta like flow-charts) should be allowed to make coding it more flexible. But this is just me, it's my style of coding, and I shouldn't have to change everything just for that heh. Just think it's a good idea.

I also think that any programming language should be used. It is only after all a text adventure competition, and it's not like one language is going to be more beneficial that any other (unless you use 'Text-Adventure-Creator Language'.. if that even exists, heh). It's just that some people prefer different coding styles and environments, and if people get to make that choise, we can expect to see better games out of people

These are just my opinions, of course, you dont have to agree with them

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Darth Vader
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Posted: 10th May 2007 13:40
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ASCII Art
Mutli-Lanuguage
More story development then technical
Art ban

Can we have RPG elements in the game? So if we have a combat situation we can make it resolve using a dice system based on chracter attributes?


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Dazzag
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Posted: 10th May 2007 13:59
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It's a text adventure game; you can do pretty much anything as long as it is text based. I played a lot of these back in the day, and some of the different ways of playing was pretty cool. As far as I'm concerned something clever and different would be great.

And ASCII art... really? I mean really????? I remember we were half amused for 5 minutes on the newsgroups in 1991, but it sort of becomes seriously annoying after a while (6 minutes). Hopefully only a couple do it.... please god.... Oh, and if anyone gets cocky and does animated ASCII art then I will have to kill someone.... It's a text adventure..... cry....

Oh, and storyline seems to be massive, so does it have to be original? I mean I'm sure we will get WoW text adventures by the bucketload, but I would just love it, for example, if someone did a text adventure for the Hitchhiker's Guide books. I mean they only did the first one originally, and planned the rest, but it never happened

Cheers

I am 99% probably lying in bed right now... so don't blame me for crappy typing
Current fave quote : "She was like a candle in the wind.... unreliable...."
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Fallout
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Posted: 10th May 2007 16:03 Edited at: 10th May 2007 16:05
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Ok, the only text adventure I ever played was Softpr0n 2 on some random disk I found when I was about 10. Surprisingly, I couldn't complete it (or get anywhere) until I found it again when I was about 14 and knew the sorts of things I should be typing.

So, to someone like myself who isn't up on text adventures, what should I be coding? I remember playing Space Quest and Police Quest, where I think you typed in commands, but obviously that was graphical. Is that what we're talking about but without the graphics? Do we have to have text parsers, or can we just have options?

Does it have to be really unintuitive and cryptic like on games where they didn't give you a clue as to what the vocab was, or are you allowed to clearly lay out all the command options like "list commands" which returns a list of verbs and a command syntax? I really dunno what is the right way to go about these badgers.

Or is it just a case of we can do it however the hell we want, so long as the whole thing is text based and graphics free? I assume that also means sound is a no no? I thought it might be cool to have background music for atmosphere, or warning sounds when you enter a dangerous room etc to prepare you for the scary room description.


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Dazzag
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Posted: 10th May 2007 16:20 Edited at: 10th May 2007 16:27
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Quote: "Is that what we're talking about but without the graphics?"
Kind of. Normally proper text adventures had better parsers than the point and click graphic adventures with text commands. When you mention options, then I remember playing Adrian Mole on the speccy. That was just options and it was pretty cool (whatever you choose effected future options). Would like something like that. Pretty close to an adventure game book (remember them??? - I have about 30). Heh, coming back to my secret longing to one day write a game book creator (not that anyone cares now). Would be good though Hmmmm...

Most adventures had a list of the basic commands. eg. N,S,E,W (plus NW, SE etc) for directions. But they didn't normally go into complications if the parser was more complicated. They would leave you with "GET picks up an object" and not normally say how you could combine that with another object if possible eg. "GET BOAT AND TIE IT TO THE DOCK".

Only adventure game I can remember with music was the 128k version of Neverending story. Awesome music, rock hard game. As far as I'm concerned if I do anything (grrr... mustn't give in...) then I will do whatever I want. Graphics (I'm thinking Fish or Knight Orc style), sound, 3D map , whatever dude. If it doesn't contribute to the rating then so be it, after all it doesn't have to be just for this competition. Plus, even if the extra stuff isn't awarded for the competition, then I can't imagine it would be marked down because of it. Probably get a lower mark because you would have less time to work on the plot and puzzles, but it's your game.

If I was you (and now I think about it I might be me too. It's been a while) I would download some old adventures. Anything on the speccy (Amiga and ST had some nice ones too later) by Level 9, or whatserfaces that did Zork is good. Personally loved Fish, Knight Orc, and Gnome Ranger. Wonderful parsers (Gnome Ranger comes to mind) with changing worlds (take the note to the old women's house in Gnome ranger for a laugh). Brilliant. And graphics (if you choose to view them).... And I can't remember any ASCII art either.....

Heh, and Bored of the Rings was pretty funny if I remember rightly (Hobbit is a great game. Can't remember how to get out of cellar though.... something to do with the wine barrel...). Bloody loads of them. World Of Spectrum has an adventure section if I remember rightly.

Cheers

I am 99% probably lying in bed right now... so don't blame me for crappy typing
Current fave quote : "She was like a candle in the wind.... unreliable...."
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Fallout
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Posted: 10th May 2007 16:43
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Cheers dude. I was thinking I might give this a bash for a couple of reasons. Firstly, I like writing books/stories, but never do, so this is a good excuse. I don't have to fart about with media, which is the bane of the programmers life. And technical, once the parser is out of the way (which admittedly, could be difficult depending on how complex you make it) it'd be piss easy. And I like piss easy. Also, I might use Perl, since that's pretty much the most powerful text manipulation language out there and I've been using it quite heavily at work.

I'd like to hear from Matt if graphics and music etc. would mark you down, or just not contribute to the mark, or would contribute? I wouldn't bother with graphics, but would like to stick in a few sounds since that's one of my thangs. Mind you, I can't do sound effects in perl, so then I might have to use DBP ... or I could use both .... Decisions to make.


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Dazzag
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Posted: 10th May 2007 17:00 Edited at: 10th May 2007 17:02
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Quote: "Also, I might use Perl, since that's pretty much the most powerful text manipulation language out there and I've been using it quite heavily at work"
Yeah, main reason why I would use VB (no! Must resist!). Our main language at work (VB is mainly used for PC MIS and database tools, although I've used it personally since there was that kokey DOS version between QBasic and proper VB) is an almost exclusive unheard of (apart from America where it's not too bad) Unix language, so no go on that one Although it was designed for business so file manipulation and string handling are pretty up there. But the version we use doesn't even have a distribution that works properly for Linux (only Unix)

Quote: "I'd like to hear from Matt if graphics and music etc. would mark you down"
Yeah, I would like to know that. I mean whats the harm if it's hiddenish (or an option)? Or a background downloadable extra (hmmmm).

Quote: "or I could use both"
Heh, yeah, I played with the idea of my other long standing (but no-one cares about) idea of creating a text adventure creator. VB would rule compared to DBP for everything else, but with the hassle of DirectX in VB, it would be better for DBP to do nice 3D maps. Mmmmm.... Anyone got any code to encapsulate a DBP window into a VB form? Tried it a while ago with limited success, but was a while ago... Ang on. Don't answer that one. Slippery slope....

Cheers

I am 99% probably lying in bed right now... so don't blame me for crappy typing
Current fave quote : "She was like a candle in the wind.... unreliable...."
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Matt Rock
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Posted: 10th May 2007 22:47
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Quote: "Out of curiosity, if the technical side isn't important this time around, why do you care if someone uses a text adventure "creator"? None of the other contests (retro, etc.) from around the indie sites have any restriction on language. Many of the winning games were made with so-called "real" languages like DBP, etc, and not "creator" engines like T3DGM."

I still want there to be a learning experience for the newer, less experienced entrants, and I think text adventures are a great way to productively learn the most basic elements of coding. But then you're right, my main goal is story development, so I guess I'll have to re-think that a bit. Maybe we would allow IF creation tools but place a strong emphasis on entrants writing source instead? Or maybe we could do something with the game's scoring system to reflect that a tool was used... or would that be unfair somehow?

Quote: "Why not just state that [media] does not effect the rating given to the game?"

That's what we did last year, we said you could use media if you wanted to but it would in no way effect your score as long as that media didn't violate the competition's media guidelines. And to my knowledge the judges played the games with the sound off and did a pretty good job ignoring the media used in the entries. And a great point was also made...
Quote: "after all a game is for life, not just for this competition"

I'm releasing a commercial text adventure game called Eternal Equinox on the 18th of this month (there's a WIP thread about it), and part of the idea there is that while most people think IF games can't/ won't sell, it hasn't really been tried with any degree of serious effort in recent years. So I'm planning a Game Design thread about the game's retail efforts, where I'll talk about what I do right/ wrong along the way, and if this game defies all logic and turns sales, there's no reason why others couldn't do the same... like, say, the entrants in this competition . So...

Quote: "I'd like to hear from Matt if graphics and music etc. would mark you down, or just not contribute to the mark, or would contribute?"

I suppose we could allow media to be used, but emphasize strongly that media will be firmly ignored and will have absolutely no effect on your score whatsoever. Or maybe better, we could have a "sub-award" for best media used in a game (but with no prize of course, hehe), along with a handful of other "in name only" awards that could be handed out.


"In an interstellar burst, I'm back to save the universe"
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Dazzag
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Posted: 10th May 2007 23:26 Edited at: 10th May 2007 23:31
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Quote: "or would that be unfair somehow?"
Not really. Our uni final year projects were scored on difficulty. So if they thought your project was worth 9/10 then they would then use the difficulty multiplier to work out the score. I was a full 1.0 (ie. times score by one) as it was pretty much total programming. Friend of mine had mainly research and only a small amount of programming so he had something like 0.6. Just state on the competition what the multiplier is. So languages would be 1.0, and engines could be 0.7 perhaps. You could then modify the multiplier a little more depending on each case. Lets see, so if it is based on an existing story (Lord of the rings game) then they already have a lot of existing plot, so lower their multiplier by 0.1. Erm, if more than one person worked on it then lower by another 0.1. And whatever else you can think of. You get the idea. That way you can work out each games individual multiplier before hand then just enjoy the game without worrying about knocking off points. Then when you finally rate the game then use the multiplier to get the competition rating. You can publish both so that people will know what are really good games even though they may not win because they had so much help.

As for the media then why not make it mandatory to hide by default, or least have an option to completely turn it off so it cannot effect the scoring in any way. Oh and the rule that media cannot be part of the game. ie. If you have the pictures and sounds all turned completely off then it will not cause you to get stuck. Media is not required to complete the game (eg. a puzzle that has the answer in the picture only). Enforce those two rules and everyone is happy

Cheers

I am 99% probably lying in bed right now... so don't blame me for crappy typing
Current fave quote : "She was like a candle in the wind.... unreliable...."
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Killswitch
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Posted: 11th May 2007 01:06
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Me thinks the rules may be getting a little over-complicated now . It's your competition - so now you've had a lot of our input I think it'd be best if you laid down the rules according to your own, informed, opinion.

~Heed my word hobags: Jism~
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Cash Curtis II
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Posted: 11th May 2007 06:20
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This seems to be getting overly complicated.

Media just shouldn't be allowed. People will bend the rules, and it will be possible to ignore completely.

While it would be nice to use another language, since this is pretty much a TGC contest, we should probably restrict the language to DB. Then, TGC could sponsor one of the prizes.

If the parser doesn't matter, then I won't even compete. I'm quite aware that the story is more important, but the parser was one of the best things about Zork and Enchanter. I ditched lots of IF games with a bad parser. As as game maker, I pride myself on both the technical and artistic components of projects that I create.


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