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Geek Culture / Indi development vision

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zenassem
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Posted: 30th May 2007 16:01 Edited at: 30th May 2007 23:40
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As I was going through Amiga archives yesterday, I remembered how great some of those games were. And 1-3 people could code most of them in a fairly short period of time. I don't get it honestly, but it seems we have too many options to keep bedroom coders focused. The goals are too lofty. And yet we have all these high-end tools. I mean, you would think it would take longer to create all that sprite work, but honestly the tools as limited as they were... were geared towards dithering sprite graphics.

Not sure if anyone can give me the exact res of most Amiga games, but a number look close to 320x240. We spend so much time on shaders, textures, particle effects, physics, etc... Unfortunately I think the hobbyist programming scene as gone downhill compared with the late 80's - mid 90's. Things started to crash with the release of PS1.

I jump back and forth around programming groups, and I can tell you that the commodore64/128 Amiga /AtariST/ Demo scene is still cranking, especially in areas like Poland, Norway, Finland, UK, and South America. They make some amazing games. Poland/Finland honestly leading the way in everything retro. They push more cycles and techno music out of the 'ole 8-bits and the C64 Sid chip then I ever thought possible. They are just amazing.

Now for example purposes, when I ducked out of the DBpro scene for a year, I was running my old Atari/Commodore setups. And I ported the working portions of my Mario engine over to the Atari. There it was received with accoloades. But honestly, I don't think it would get more than a glance here. I was attempting to re-create Castlevania, Unfortunatley my reference for tile graphics was from the nintendo, and I got the proportions wrong. But ermmmm it was still interesting. Here's some images.

Here was my reference work (Here's wher I made my mistake! ouch)


My pixel by pixel translation:



In game remake Inside emulator(Notice the proportion mistake)


My Actual Hardware Test Set-up


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Dazzag
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Posted: 30th May 2007 16:11
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Think the Amiga (and ST) was 320x200 for most games.

Totally agree with you though about making things too complicated. Personally I think 2D games can be cranked out by the bucket load if you so wish, but 3D games take a little more effort. Esp if you are trying to compare with modern games. Just look at the retro remake scene. Most of the stuff coming out of there (and there is *loads*) is still in 2D. I mean did anyone see that Jet Set Willy Online effort? Brilliant.... Can't even begin to think of all the classic games that could be redone for multiplayer online. Even if you didn't update the graphics and gameplay there is still a seemingly endless supply of great games to make better by making online versions. Online Jetpac would be cool...

Cheers

I am 99% probably lying in bed right now... so don't blame me for crappy typing
Current fave quote : "She was like a candle in the wind.... unreliable...."
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Kentaree
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Posted: 30th May 2007 16:18
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I reckon the trick to cranking out 3D games relatively quickly is cartoon-style. Zelda: The Wind Waker has a classic look which I doubt will ever be seen as poor graphics (I'm also not claiming it didn't take long to make ) and as such if production of a similarly styled game can be made easier, relatively less work would have to be put in because there's not 3 or 4 different type of maps being applied to the object and they're not massively high poly.

Nephin Games
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zenassem
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Posted: 30th May 2007 16:20 Edited at: 30th May 2007 23:38
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Thanks Dazzag, I believe you are right. That's where my proportions went wrong I believe. LOL. I was porting nintendo graphics, which might have been somewhere near 300x240. I'll have to check.

just looked up the NES resoultion and I got:
between 256x224 and 512x448

But when I ran it on the actual hardware, all my graphics were off. Newb mistake! And something I regret not visualizing properly.

Unforutunately I spent too much time playing Ultima:


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indi
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Posted: 30th May 2007 17:44 Edited at: 30th May 2007 17:49
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wizardry apple II gs then bards tale and ultima zen, i feel your pain
oops i forgot tunnels of doom ti 94a

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heartbone
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Posted: 30th May 2007 17:46 Edited at: 30th May 2007 17:48
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The 1985 Amiga 1000 went up to 640 x 400 in NTSC.
Higher vertical count in PAL.

The hardware could go to higher resolutions through tricks,
but this was the standard maximum.

Remember the interlace mode flicker?

I'm unique, just like everybody else.
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Dazzag
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Posted: 30th May 2007 17:52 Edited at: 30th May 2007 17:53
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Quote: "went up to 640 x 400"
Pretty sure even the 500 had that mode with the applicible hardware. And HAM mode did some nice stuff even on an old 500, but the vast majority of games were 320x200. Although I do remember a HAM game being reviewed (was too slow really) but can't remember it's name..

Cheers

I am 99% probably lying in bed right now... so don't blame me for crappy typing
Current fave quote : "She was like a candle in the wind.... unreliable...."
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heartbone
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Posted: 30th May 2007 17:57
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Quote: "Even if you didn't update the graphics and gameplay there is still a seemingly endless supply of great games to make better by making online versions."

Yes indeed.
My to do list contains a lot of 8 and 16 bit remakes.

I'm unique, just like everybody else.
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Dazzag
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Posted: 30th May 2007 18:10
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Quote: "My to do list contains a lot of 8 and 16 bit remakes"
Yep. Wish I could get my a**e in gear though. Although these days I'm thinking more along the lines of hybrid retro remakes rather than straight remakes. eg. Online Bionic Commando mixed with Jetpac. That way you can use the same graphics (slightly enhanced obviously) and not make it look like the identical game. Plus who doesn't want to play BioPac Online??? Eh? Eh?.... Must make time...

Cheers

I am 99% probably lying in bed right now... so don't blame me for crappy typing
Current fave quote : "She was like a candle in the wind.... unreliable...."
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Fallout
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Posted: 30th May 2007 19:36
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@Cash - That could be really handy mate. I have a function that is run upto 10,000 per loop with a couple of ABS() in it.


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Cash Curtis II
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Posted: 30th May 2007 19:40
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Float or integer values?


Come see the WIP!
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Fallout
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Posted: 30th May 2007 22:39
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Float, although what makes it a pain in this:



I have to multiply one value by 1.0, else I get an integer past into the abs function. Bloody db!


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Jeku
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Posted: 30th May 2007 22:43
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Quote: "I absolutely agree."


And I absolutely disagree. There are many hardcore developers that can't model, and they can still be successful. Hell, I only know *one* programmer here at work who can do 2D and 3D work as well. Anybody can put two block together and call it a girl--- I'm talking about real modeling.

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Matt Rock
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Posted: 30th May 2007 22:57
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I can never seem to avoid these threads, because I'm a firm believer in localization. At first, I tried to assemble the MISoft team from people on the Internet, assuming it would be the easiest way to get a bunch of talented people together. I didn't like forums at the time because every forum I'd found and posted in alienated newcomers, as if the date they joined the forum or their karma rating determined how much they could possibly know about a certain topic. I didn't know TGC existed yet, and so I ended up talking to people I knew in chat, or friends who played online games like Battlefield or Rainbow 6, trying to see if anyone had some degree of talent. When I came up dry, I'd found out that a friend of mine, Amber, was actually an extremely gifted 2D artist, 3D modeller, and her British accent made her a prime subject for voice acting . From that point on, I've been all about localization, trying to find friends, or friends of friends, with some degree of applicable talent.

The sad part of it all though is that the project we assembled everyone together for, the one we only refer to in public as "Project Church Mouse," ultimately stalled and failed. The project was far too big to be made by anyone, even by a mainstream company, let alone a small indie team of fourteen people. But we learned from that long series of mistakes. We had three meetings each week just to discuss what went right and what went wrong, sort of like the Postmortems you'd find in Game Developer Magazine. And with more realism on the table, matched with a realistic outlook of our own capabilities, we discussed a brand new plan. We organized our ideas into a proper development schedule, based on each project's difficulty, resources required, etc. Now, the team is working on a much smaller project, one that will still need about a year or so to complete, but one that promises to be much more reachable than our heavenly "project church mouse." And between now and that game's release, we have several "mini-projects" planned for development, from which we can learn lessons and whatnot until that larger project, "project muskrat," is released. Hopefully by then we'll know enough about geurilla marketing and selling commercial projects to make that game a success.

We might not be the most experienced people around, but with three games released (if you count "Pod 9," the FPSC experiment), one of which is commercial, and two other games under development right now with planned release dates, and a third and fourth phasing into development in July, I think we've "broken the indie curse" by fully mastering productivity. We can figure out when a project might be done, and we can trust each other to get our specified jobs completed by certain dates. We know what each team-members schedule is like, we can call or visit someone's home if a problem pops up out of nowhere, and we spend time just being friends, which relieves the tensions that tend to spur out of working on a project together. Localization may not work for everyone, but without question, it is the "king of the ring" when it comes to making games, and I think some people have that option open to them but don't realize it.

My motto is, "you'll never know until you try." It's evidenced by Eternal Equinox, the world's first commercial text adventure game in a pretty long time. Maybe it'll fail, maybe it'll be a success... at least I'm learning either way. That same motto is easily applied to localizing a team. You'll never know unless you ask around, talk to people, and give local team-building a serious, dedicated try. I think you'll have far greater success building a team from people you know in person than you ever would building a team from people on the internet whom you'll more than likely never meet.


"In an interstellar burst, I'm back to save the universe"
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zenassem
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Posted: 30th May 2007 23:26 Edited at: 30th May 2007 23:42
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Well now that I actually went back and read the entire thread, I see what you are on about.

Quote: "
x=x-1 (honestly I never thought about doing that).
"


The above, was what I had in mind with my DBpro brain-storming post last week in the DBpro board. Unfortunately, it ran out of steam as I didn't receive any new submissions for topics. So i decide not to press it or bump it. I learned a few things in two days of the thread, especially some insight from IanM, Benjamin, Dark Coder, Cash Curtis II; I'll have to look up who else was contributing.

I posted something similar to the other main topic in this thread few weeks ago, with regard to completing projects and a TGC forums Dev framework. I got some thoughful responses and good ideas. I was thinking of a framework, where a focused part of the team could dole out requirements... and people could look at the to do list, retain a ticket for whatever work, and then submit. I was trying to work out details of the framework, but then the thread seemed to take a turn where people didn't think it could work. And without a large base believing, no framework would work.

I just tried to imagine all the models, textures, 2d images, code of dropped attempts, that we have on our hd's and was trying to envision a way to complete some quality games, utilizing the numerous talents around here.


===========================================
What I think the Problems Are
===========================================
The frustrating part is this works in other programming communities, be it a library like allegro, a dev scene like retro 8-bit or Amiga/St communities, some C++ communities.

The community project thread, in DBpro Forums was possibly the best thing the site had going. I came back and checked it out, and I can't tell what is happening anymore. For the most part i believe it finally died. Looks like it was started with great intentions, fairly good results. But without support, and only being able to communicate through threads, it was doomed.

But it doesn't seem to take hold here. Why???


Here's what I have come up with

- The TGC Website:
The forums are good, but a lot of other stuff is... well ...scattered about, messy, unattended.

BTW not trying to knock Rich here. He does what he can, and posts regularly "items of interest", either himself or through a mod, like the GOD-type game project he passed on to BatVink.

Look at the response (or lack there of) that is getting?? :-|

- The codebase:
I made a post about that. Not sure what is or can be done. I submitted a few dozen removal requests. I know someone is working on an offsite codebase. Maybe best to outsource this anyways. But in it's current state it is horrible, embarassing, and nearly impossible to utilize.

- The Showcase:
Not really a standout place anymore. In fact, I tend to have a hard time locating it. Has anyone been there recently??? The stuff in there is old. I've seen the same apps since 2002. Some nice work, Amiga-like games were being done, and then for whatever reason it tanked. If I had to guess I'd say around the time of the Alienware compo.

Let's face it, no one looks at the showcase (except maybe if they are thinking of purchasing DBpro or DBC), after that it's forgotten. It's not really a high priority around here.

-The snippets board:
Great idea, but the real gems don't get moved to anywhere special. Even if the authour submits their work to the codebase. For the reason above, that becomes a trash heap. Sorting out the bad, is well... ermmm, not fun.

-The program announcements board:
While this and the WIP boards are great, there is no other place for them to be showcased. See the showcase above and I'll leave it at that!

-Number of products and arrangement:
This really needs to change... There are updates, examples, tutorials, plugins, which aren't setup to easily navigate. I know people will argue that I must be high, but honeslty, the layout to find this stuff is not working.

It's even getting difficult to find what are TGC products, what is community supported/authored. A store layout needs to be implemented. i like the shortcuts at the top of the forums but, everything else is just hacked in.

We have 1 Forum for DBP+DBC+FPSC+PLAYBASIC+.... They should all be located together, but tiered differently. The first page should have the products, and then in each product the multiple forums should unroll. Not all off the same Forum page. What do you expect to happen when FPSCX10 is released??

---

I could go on for pages, but I'll spare you. The fact is there is no focus here. It's a scattering of ideas. Not everything can be done in a board or thread. It's creatively limiting, and it has a great effect on the mindset of this community.

Important!!!
Quote: "
I am honestly trying to think of a site layout that will take the burden off of TGC. I'm not interested in a forum, that's done pretty well here. But I am interested in talking to anyone about getting a site up, that is strictly DBP/DBC Indie Dev friendly. With updated showcases, Apps, and projects.

So if anyone is interested in contacting me, my e-mail is
zenassem@hotmail.com

I have to renew my Verio hosting, but it may be enough to get us started. If you already have a site, perhaps we can chat with some other great minds here, and come up with something!
"


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DrewG
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Posted: 31st May 2007 00:05
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Wow this thread became gigantic now.

Anyway, it didn't have to be called Karma, any name would work. But why not have it where the mods appoint people who have been here years and/or have been posting homeade games that are good or have been a good tutorial contributor. Then, those who are selected have access to the team board, and can only see the threads/posts on that board.

Plus, they can increase the bar each user would have, so if a new user posts good stuff, an oldbie can give that user a higher score, leading to being able to access the board.

Not that complicated, and it may work. Try it Rich.
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The admiral
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Posted: 31st May 2007 01:45
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zenassem is right tgc website is too scattered and to simplistic in its tools to be effective for us. The only real support is the forums and thats just not enough to help people grow and develop. I Have been contact by somone to help so I beleive since we share a common vision I will work along side them to bring these features to light.

The admiral
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Raven
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Posted: 31st May 2007 02:16
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admiral, didn't have you on my msn. gonna contact you about this when i can.. got lots of ideas

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zenassem
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Posted: 31st May 2007 03:26
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Do we still have an IRC channel for DarkBasic?

It would be nice to have some chats on this. I have to check my MSN account. There was a period of time where I had my Google, MSN, Yahoo, accounts tied into into trillian (sp?).

Anyways, I'd like to hear your ideas "The Admiral",as well as "Raven's".

Don't want to split the community, but a site that is geared towards development/resources/finished/groups projects, that are quality but not pipe-dreams. Getting some good finished 16-bit like games up and showcased. etc... Not a general question site.

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Raven
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Posted: 31st May 2007 03:36
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yeah there's an irc.
irc://irc.devhat.net - just join in the #lobby

i've got to remember to recode that explorer7 plug-in i made at my lass' for recognising them and starting a chatzilla style irc plugin. too many project, it can wait. just jirc for now lol

in-fact you could always select IRC Channel from the forum dropdown box.

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Moondog
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Posted: 31st May 2007 04:04
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unfortunately VAN B, your 100% correct...

i seriously don't know whats wrong with me sometimes. i've always been like this. i've always been able to pick up concepts pretty easy..but when it came down to using them, i can't do it, and i don't know why. i've started projects and started helping with other's projects many times, and every time i just can't do it anymore, and i don't know why. i know one MOD on here wishes my death because i screwed him over on a project (i won't mention names), it wasn't that i couldn't do that work, i was creating the media no problem...it's just after a while i couldn't concentrate on it anymore, and i would keep telling myself, i'll finish it tomorrow...and thats how it was...eventually i just ignored him because i didn't want to deal with the problem, even though i wanted to fix it, and keep working...

it's like i can't understand whats going on around me sometimes, and it makes me want to scream sometimes. sometimes it's so bad that someone could be talking to me, and i would be looking them directly in the eyes, but i'll still end up asking them to repeat what they said...it's not that i didn't hear them, but it's like i just suddenly forgot what they just said...or sometimes i'll literally zone out...actually i zone out a lot. i'll log on to WOW sometimes and just sit there staring at the screen for 20mins...then just logoff...

and all of this makes me feel like shiz...like my self esteem just goes down the toilet, and it makes me want to do even less...another reason i'll probably never finish my demo reel, or any work worthy of one and get a good job

i don't know, i'm just ranting..maybe trying to make up excuses, i don't know...all i can say is sorry for being like this, and i'm doing everything i can to improve my self in working on projects. i've put a lot of effort into Mystic Dream...even sometimes forcing myself to work when i can't concentrate on the content i'm working on...

so yah...this is probably one reason you started this thread Hayden, because i don't tend to come through for you sometimes..well, most of the time...maybe i should just quit this stuff all together, be best for everyone, no more empty promises

even after finishing this and posting i'll just sit here and stair at the screen for an hour doing nothing but saying to myself, "i should do some work now to prove i'm not worthless"

josh

http://moondogsnotebook.blogspot.com/
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Cash Curtis II
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Posted: 31st May 2007 04:05 Edited at: 31st May 2007 04:07
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@Jeku -
Quote: "And I absolutely disagree. There are many hardcore developers that can't model, and they can still be successful. Hell, I only know *one* programmer here at work who can do 2D and 3D work as well. Anybody can put two block together and call it a girl--- I'm talking about real modeling."

I don't think that's the point at all. We're talking about indie developers, not people at your work. And if someone put two blocks together and tried to call that a model, then they clearly aren't modeling.

@Fallout -
The biggest speed increase is absInt(). However, absFloat() is quite a bit faster than the DBP native command, even though it's natively in float. How odd. Even worse, before I made the plugin I made a DBP code replacement. The DBP code was faster than the native command for both datatypes!!


Come see the WIP!
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Raven
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Posted: 31st May 2007 04:42
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josh, it's a classic thing with most artists.
i'm not talking about those who do art because they push themselves and have learnt.. but those with natural creative talent.

i mean the major problem most of the time is actually wanting to work on the project. i've often not had the same sort of passion for a project as others have, without that usually leave it be; but without someone there to help keep me focused, usually don't keep working on something long enough to see it completed.

very irritating at times. found the best way to get around it is a reward system for myself.. get X done and I can have a break, for food, tea and a ciggie. tends to help.

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Kevin Picone
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Posted: 31st May 2007 07:52 Edited at: 31st May 2007 08:03
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@The Admiral,

I'd be really careful jumping into something like this. Not that the concept is bad, but getting these things off the ground can be notoriously difficult - Ie. Offering the service is one thing, but in order for users to have a positive experience, inevitably relies upon the content & quality of available human resources in the community ( the other people using it).

The networking/team aspect is a critical to some projects & developers, but not so to other. Personally, I don't necessarily want to form teams, I'd be more interested in outsourcing certain tasks within a project.

So perhaps one approach might be that users can start an "open project". All projects would be stored under categories (type (game/app) genre ( whatever) so that willing contributors can browse/search/show relevant open projects & tasks within the projects to their skills. So if you're a Texture artist you can quickly find open projects that are looking for Texture artists, if you're a GUI coder, you can look for projects looking for a gui coder etc etc. If it's too clumsy for users only the real die hards will bother.

The project creator should become the admin (overseer) of that project, they can then assign other users permanent team status, or perhaps contributor status. You could tie some type of Member/Contributor rating to that I guess. But them it gets competitive, but that might help weed out the "vaporware contributors from the real helpers"

For example, if I requested a musician and Annie, Jim, & Bill responded. Then select BILL for the job, he'd be tagged as a project contributor in this profile and given some rating to the value of his submissions to the project (perhaps a comment or score or something). When BILL applies for other open tasks in other open projects, the admins / team members & users in general can view his history. A bit like the sellers history in the ebay I guess.

The project information needs to be clear and concise as to what the creators are aiming at producing, and what kind of skills/ tasks they expect to obtain from new team members or outsource to community from time to time. It should cover everything really. But some random stuff might be, Who is working on this project ? , Time span ?, How frequently & how much work has taken place already ? , final objectives (freeware/shareware/commercial - full game, demo, prototype/mock up ), beta testers opportunities as well as including screen shot galleries (per project), tech demos (alpha, beta) , movies clips etc So potential contributors can get some idea of what their getting themselves into. There's no guarantee they won't get burned!

Therefore if contributors get ratings of some type, then so should project admins. If Amins post projects that fail, then other contributors need to be aware of this. The project admin's job (on the site) is to keep the project status active. Which might mean posting regular blog info, new screens, new open tasks, closing old tasks etc on the regular basis.

The open tasks of project need to be categorized (Artwork - Texture, logo, Font, Sprite etc etc ) to help contributors find relevant tasks to them. The task requests could have time span it's open for, importance rating (to the project), a list of users going for this opportunity perhaps and of course some dizzy about what is required.

When a contributor finds a relevant task, they could then apply, or submit. This could be a visible (like a blog comment under the task request) or a invisible to the community like a PM perhaps. But there needs to be some way the potential contributors can see if it's worth their time applying or not.

If a project becomes inactivate for too long, it should fall into hiatus, the board could email the project admins requesting a 'status' update (every 30 day without update/log in perhaps). Projects left in hiatus could then be automatically closed by the board (after say 60/90 days). If the project admin wants it reopened, they'd need to ask the site admin to reopen it.

Anyway, I don't know if that's the type of rolling dribble you're after, but perhaps there's something useful in it.


PlayBasic.com Presents - Ballistic Blasters - Opening May 2007 - Fear Optional!
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Jeku
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Posted: 31st May 2007 08:00
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Quote: "I don't think that's the point at all. We're talking about indie developers, not people at your work."


Okay that was a bad example. But I have many indie games (subscriber to Shockwave.com), and most of them were made by more than a few people. There's the programmers and then the artists. I don't understand where people get the idea that an indie programmer is not likely to succeed if he can't model.

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Cash Curtis II
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Posted: 31st May 2007 08:12
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Quote: "I don't understand where people get the idea that an indie programmer is not likely to succeed if he can't model."

I suppose it depends on the genre of the game, mostly. It is possible to use stock media to create many, many games. Many good arcade games could be made with stock media. Note that I am talking about 3D games.

The programmer does need some experience with the media in order to use it properly. Even if the programmer outsources the 3D work, he/she still needs to have knowledge of it.

The genre of game that dies because of this is usually an RPG. DBP isn't really the ideal language for an RPG anyway. In any case, very few of them ever get any media. I've seen Psionic's poor dwarf far too many times, surrounded by angry boxes. In a game like this, the programmer often tries to team up with an artist. Invariably, the artist's status changes and then the game cannot be completed. Usually only one or two usable models are produced in this manner.

If I couldn't model, Geisha House would have died long ago. I've been able to use a variety of sources for media. I've successfully outsourced many different parts of the game to others, including paid work. I've bought other stock media and changed them for the game. Many other things I've modeled myself.

If I couldn't model, 80% of the models I'm using right now wouldn't even be usable. All of the DarkMatter models and the Realm Crafter models were delivered to me as utter crap. I had to reanimate every single one that I'm using in the game. I've also retextured almost every stock model. All of this work would be impossible to expect of someone else.

Most people don't get DBP to make arcade games. They get it to try and make the next Oblivion or Grand Theft Auto. And, most of those that try lack the necessary skills that are needed to create such a game. People would be happier if they just set their sites a bit lower.


Come see the WIP!
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Raven
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Posted: 31st May 2007 10:10
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Independant development generally forget about the freelance market. I mean there are a lot of people out there willing to help in each area if you want it.

I personally can do the programming side and artwork side of projects, however something I have learnt over the years is it's all aspects that help make or break titles.
Can't really crank out a decent tune, or sound effect (despite making a sound editor available in the code snippets area). So I have to rely upon someone else for that.

The same for dialog and such, while sure I can write. Often what I come up with can be far too wordy, often characters feel the same from all angles. I mean if push came to shove, yes I could do everything.. but the end result wouldn't be as good if I didn't focus on a single aspect.

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The admiral
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Posted: 31st May 2007 11:04
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Ah i am a patient man moondog. I didnt actually make this post because of you i made it to inspire others to become better people. I know you have been working hard on mystic dream and im thankful for that maybe this will be your chance to prove to yourself you can complete something. I on the other hand know how you feel so many times I cant be bothered to programme but it bothers me and I have to force my self. Dont give up hope mate I beleive you can do great things with your knowledge.

The admiral
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Fallout
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Posted: 31st May 2007 11:38
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Quote: "Anyway, it didn't have to be called Karma, any name would work. But why not have it where the mods appoint people who have been here years and/or have been posting homeade games that are good or have been a good tutorial contributor. Then, those who are selected have access to the team board, and can only see the threads/posts on that board."


Well, we did have the TGPF with lots of game dev egg heads on it. I think it's still alive. The problem is, game dev egg heads don't really need to ask many questions, as they know most of what is to know already (or are skillful enough to work out the solutions themselves). So the board was pretty quiet. Also, there was no big group project for this reason and that. The only one we considered was an MMO which was clearly a bit far fetched, so nobody was really interested.

I stand by the fact a good indie team needs 1 good coder, and a bunch of people keen enough to produce levels and media etc. So it is all the media guys fault that sucks. All you 3D modellers, you suck and I hope you find boggies in your cornflakes!!!!!


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Raven
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Posted: 31st May 2007 13:40
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a site of interest btw is GreatGameExperiment.com, most of what i could suggest for a team developer site is already in practise on that.

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Matt Rock
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Posted: 31st May 2007 20:56
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Great Games Experiment, is that the one from Noah Falstein, ala the Inspiracy blogs and Game Developer Magazine's Game Shui articles?


"In an interstellar burst, I'm back to save the universe"
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zenassem
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Posted: 1st Jun 2007 02:45 Edited at: 1st Jun 2007 02:46
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IMHO, what we also need are tools, and an engine to produce Amiga like games. I guess some would argue that most of the engine is built into DBpro, and while each command reprsents numerous lines of C++ code, it still take a long time to solidly develop games with DBpro. Because of the Procedural architecture, we all wind up reinventing the wheel from time to time. I'd like to pull a lot of the functions from the snippets, codebase, and people's sites together. The only problem is organizing it all.

Perhaps I'm not good at seeing the entire picture but it seems harder to build libraries of functions/types in DBpro without having .h and .cpp like C++ and without an OO model. Though I haven't tried it really. Given the absence of a #Define compiler directive.

Regardless, It would be great to combine a lot of what is now separated into a more organized function base and engine. Both for 2d and for 3d. Not sure how easily this can be done within the confines of DBP, perhaps more would have to be coded into DLL's.

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Zombie 20
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Posted: 1st Jun 2007 02:54
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Quote: "Experience is key, it's what get's projects finished, that and coffee.
"


Van I read your post and it was wonderful, but there was the keystone for me. Every book i've read has rammed into my head that you have to start small and that gaining expereince is the only way to ever complete a big project. But coffee, that always nice and some AC/DC for me .

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Dazzag
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Posted: 1st Jun 2007 17:37
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Quote: "AC/DC for me"
Yep. Back in black normally gets a boring work job into the last straight And you can't beat Big Gun when playing an FPS. Nice.

Cheers

I am 99% probably lying in bed right now... so don't blame me for crappy typing
Current fave quote : "She was like a candle in the wind.... unreliable...."
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Zombie 20
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Posted: 1st Jun 2007 20:13
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You know it . Last night I had reached 200 lines on my text baseball and then I saved over it. So now AC/DC is on and i'm trucking away to make it bigger and better. I'm at 105 lines now.

And on a side note, with all of the plugins and dll's i think dbp could have a nice battle with some other languages in variety, it seems to be able to do a lot with realative ease.

Example:-Mson's PcTV
Geisha House
Soulhunter (classic at that ) to name a few

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