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Geek Culture / Work enjoyment :: money ratio

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Fallout
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Posted: 7th Jun 2007 16:56 Edited at: 7th Jun 2007 16:58
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Ok, just curious as to what people think is a priority in life. This is mainly aimed at people who are working, but you younger guys might have some [deluded] ideas too.

What's do you think is the best situation to be in:

-Hate your job, make rediculus sums of money. (Sports cars, massive houses, villas, yachts)
-Dislike your job, and make good money. (Nice car, nice house, lots of toys, a few holidays a year)
-Don't mind you job, and make ok money. (Live well enough with a few toys)
-Like your job, and make poor money. (Just about get by, with the odd pleasure)
-Love your job, and really struggle to pay the bills.

Wondering what people think, how highly you value money and security, how you prioritise your work/life balance, and what sacrifices you'd be willing to make for money or job satisfaction.

I think I'm sitting firmly in the middle on this one. I'd be happy enough if I didn't mind my job, and had enough money to buy a few toys now and then (since IT hobbies are pretty much free apart from the odd bit of software). At the moment, I don't enjoy my job at all, which is why I'm inspired to write this post.

Edit: Obviously life isn't this cut and dry, and lots of people make loads of money and love their work, and equally lots of people are poor and hate their jobs, but humor me, as this is a situation a lot of people find themselves in, and the majority of people encounter this balance to some degree.


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GatorHex
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Posted: 7th Jun 2007 17:03
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I'd just like a job, I don't care what it's doing, I'd go as far as saying id do databases even though it's the most boring thing ever!

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Kevin Picone
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Posted: 7th Jun 2007 17:26
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Quote: "-Love your job, and really struggle to pay the bills."


Works for me


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indi
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Posted: 7th Jun 2007 17:41
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love my own business, but work hard - get paid well.

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BatVink
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Posted: 7th Jun 2007 17:56
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Quote: "-Don't mind your job, and make ok money. (Live well enough with a few toys)"


If I started to dislike my job, I'd take a good look at what was going on, and make whatever adjustments were necessary.

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PowerSoft
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Posted: 7th Jun 2007 18:00
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Depends how much money you have, what you consider important and what motivates you I suppose.

Are you affect the higher levels of Maslow or just Herzbergs hygiene factors...

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SageTech
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Posted: 7th Jun 2007 18:03
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Well, I just got my first Job, and while I may not qualify to answer, I'm going to anyway . Ive found that I enjoy my job, though I would much rather be sleeping in and not working like I did in summers past. However, I do make decent money(for someone who should be making minimum wage), about 7.50 an hour. So, I guess I enjoy my job, and the pay is the best I can get at my age. However, I may just be excited about something new, and in a few weeks I'll want to kill myself instead of going into work. Who knows.


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Van B
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Posted: 7th Jun 2007 18:06
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For me priority #1 is job security. I get decent money, and quite like my job, but really I don't see my job as being anything other than a means to an end, it's there to pay the bills and I can stand it, and sadly that's about as much as most people can hope for where I live. I'm the first member of my family to ever work in an office!, there's really very little opportunity round here, if I moved to Edinburgh I'd probably earn double what I do now, but I don't care enough about it to go to those lengths. The next career step for me is IT manager, so that should set me up pretty nice, plan on retiring early if possible, so extra income will most likely go into a pension scheme.

I'm a bit worried about you though Fallout, you only just started your job at IBM yes? - you shouldn't hate it already!, maybe you'd be better off in a smaller company.


Good guy, Good guy, Wan...
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Fallout
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Posted: 7th Jun 2007 18:19 Edited at: 7th Jun 2007 18:21
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Thanks for your concern mate! I don't hate IBM. I just don't have the right challenges in my current job position, but I'll be trying something new in September here, thanks to the graduate rotation program. I just think, like BatVink said, you've always gotta consider where you want to go and what you want to do. You don't wanna get stuck in a rut. Life is too short.

If I was completely honest though, I'd rather not work in IT. I'd rather work outside and do something more physically tangible. I think this is a desire a lot of office workers get. Maybe I'll build bridges, or get into landscape gardening, or be a gamekeeper. One of my mates is a tree surgeon in the forests and spends all day climbing trees and hacking them down with chainsaws. I envy him.


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Oraculaca
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Posted: 7th Jun 2007 18:34
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I worked for several large companies and hated every minute of it. Various aspects left me feeling stressed, tired and possibly depressed. It got to the point I couldn't face going out to work in in the mornings because it was the same old crap.
If it gets to that stage then jack it in. Its not worth the agro. Like you say, life is too short and if you have to spend the majority of it working then its better to be something you like doing.
I work for myself now and do the hours to suit and answer to nobody(except the wife). I make slightly more than I did in full time employment but noone is to say what's round the corner, however If the money dried up I can honestly say I would not be as unhappy as I was a couple of years ago.

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Dazzag
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Posted: 7th Jun 2007 18:36
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So why not have the love your job and get decent money option? Personally I was like that for quite a few years. Then 911 happened and the bottom fell out of the industry. Still liked the work somewhat (not so much the new place after we were took over and 99% of my friends were made redundant...), but salary increases were a lot less.

Anyways, I made a decision that stress was not worth it and left my job to live in Cyprus (where most of my family now lives anyway). Thankfully my old lovely job helped pay for my flat. That and house price increases in good old Blighty... Plus they wouldn't let me go and made me a cannot refuse offer to carry on (using VPNs) as a contractor 4 days a week. Whoop. Work from home in a much less stressful environment (M4 takes years off your life...) by the sea in T-shirt and shorts all the time.

My decision though is obviously not for the future of my career (Cyprus versus London for programming jobs??? Think not). I'll still get to do loads of programming, but I probably won't be moving into any other teams once the contract is up (hopefully another 2-5 years yet, but I'm not stressed to lose it). Luckily I am in a position where I can be totally be stress free (ish) about things. Gives me time to work out my own thing perhaps. Watch this space basically.

Anyway, after all that rambling, I sum up that stress is one of the most scarey things in life I believe. The amount of non-smoking, fit, young people I have seen die or have heart attacks and strokes is worrying. Very worrying. Bloke in work last year had a stoke at 45 years old, and they were phoning him up on his hospital bed about how jobs were going (and they knew about the stroke). Another friend had a miscarriage with all the extra work they were piling on her, then cut her out of major projects after she took a couple of weeks off afterwards. Lovely.

You might not as be in as good a position as what I ended up in, but the end goal is to live a bit longer is it not? Well, it is for me. So stuff the rat race I say, if you can, and try and live as stress free as possible. Easy to say though, cos unless you are naive then everyone knows money is what makes the world go round....

Cheers

I am 99% probably lying in bed right now... so don't blame me for crappy typing
Current fave quote : "She was like a candle in the wind.... unreliable...."
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Van B
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Posted: 7th Jun 2007 18:37
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I used to be a project engineer in the oiltool industry, much preferred that to IT, like lot's of technical drawing and planning, and actually making something unique. I mean I have specialist 1 of a kind tools out there in use in the industry, all designed and developed by me, I even had a little project on the Arc Royal AC Carrier, a little radar platform and hatch.
Strange, but there's nothing more satisfying than sitting down with some oddly shaped component and a micrometer, and re-engineering an exact duplicate - it's like the best puzzle ever. It's a lot easier to get stuck into that sort of work, I get a kick out of developing systems and seeing them make peoples jobs easier, but I think the lack of people who understand your work plays a massive part in job satisfaction. That's the problem with IT, 99% of people have no idea about programming or even application design or what's involved, or indeed how freaking complicated it can be, and usually IT departments are small, so it's not like you can go share ideas or talk through problems like I used to get to do on the shop floor. It's funny, the place I work now must have about a 30% degree-having staff, like about a third of the people there are supposedly clever engineers with degree's, and we're talking about a silicon wafer development and production plant who's now looking into nano-mechanics - yet I'd swap every one of them for just one old-school engineer with a steel rule, a missing thumb, and a roll-up hanging off his lip.

Dear lord where did all that come from!


Good guy, Good guy, Wan...
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Dazzag
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Posted: 7th Jun 2007 18:43
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Quote: "99% of people have no idea about programming"
Yeah, they regard PMs (who are always stressed to hell) higher than programmers even though we tend to do all the PMs work anyway...

Quote: "usually IT departments are small, so it's not like you can go share ideas"
I've had a range. From 2 people to just under 30. Small teams have their advantages and so do big ones. At one stage our place had the IT departments working a lot together in the sector we are in (Travel - the other sectors such as Public Sector and Government tended to be in other cities or countries) which made a sort of single IT development department of about 200 people. Was sort of fun, but then you ended up inventing the wheel too many times if it wasn't controlled properly.

Cheers

I am 99% probably lying in bed right now... so don't blame me for crappy typing
Current fave quote : "She was like a candle in the wind.... unreliable...."
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Van B
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Posted: 7th Jun 2007 18:50
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The IT department at work is, well ME!, can't get much more secure a position in IT than sole developer though, and I really can't stand training people. That place is gonna absorb me like old Bootstraps Bill from PotC3, all stuck in the wall, only peeling off for the occasional slash or cup of coffee.


Good guy, Good guy, Wan...
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Kentaree
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Posted: 7th Jun 2007 18:50
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I quite like my job, I work in a small (2-man + directors) company, (we're actually subsidiary to a bigger company with about 40 people, so we're in a large office and provide IT support for them), and the advantage of the smaller companies is that the work is diverse. At the moment I'm coding a handheld application in C#, but I've also done perl, Java etc. so I'm never bored. Pay isn't bad either, and should go up soon aswell

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Alquerian
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Posted: 7th Jun 2007 18:54
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I have been recently torn in about 3 different directions. Firstly, I work for a College, where I run a small lab of computers and I have been working here for 7 years now. The pay is OK, and the work is OK, but I get a TON of free time to do as I please . It is a stable job and it pays the bills while I get to code to my heart's content.

I have recently been faced with 2 other options. One is transfering to another position here on campus as the Sr. Programmer Analyst, this would mean a considerable pay raise (roughly 50%), and work that would keep me and my mind busy all day. I love programming, however programming Queries and interfaces for the administration and faculty on campus isn't quite as satisfying as writing 3D software, even if all I have really produced thus far is a handful of tools.

The other option is for a game programming company. The pay would be excellent, I am sure that I would love the work, however I would be faced with the threat of insecurity. I would probably be making twice what I have now, but I might not have a job in 2 years.

I too am asking myself the same questions. With all of the free time I have currently, I am able to increase my income by learning what I need to for contracts and moonlighting. I think that Stability is #1 for me, and enjoying the work is more important than the pay. If you love what you do and you are good at it, money will follow, you will not go hungry.

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Fallout
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Posted: 7th Jun 2007 18:56
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Yeah, that sounds like an interesting job Van. Nice and challenging, and tangible and a bit more hands-on. The problem here is, we're developing massive multi-million dollar applications, so there are a lot of people who don't actually do the nitty gritty. Some people code the app, some people code test apps to test the app, some people code an infrastructure to run the test apps that test the app etc etc. Hundreds of people with different bespoke jobs, and so many layers of abstraction.

Just hoping I find a position next which gives me the sort of challenge that suits me. If not, I'll try something else next. That's the best thing about the company ... there are hundreds of positions, projects and jobs and you can try your hand at anything if you put your mind to it.

If that fails, I'm going to bake scones.


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Chris K
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Posted: 7th Jun 2007 19:00
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Fallout did you never try for a job in the games industry? If not, why not?

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Kentaree
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Posted: 7th Jun 2007 19:00
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Because the work :: enjoyment stress ratio sucks in the game industry Especially come crunch time, it burns.

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Chris K
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Posted: 7th Jun 2007 19:02
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Not if you are an engineer though, the engine will be well finished by the time the game starts crunching.

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Kentaree
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Posted: 7th Jun 2007 19:05
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Well, it depends really. I was working on mobile games, so it was probably a bit different there, but I imagine engine development goes in parallel with other development, and if the engine developers are finished their thing, they would most likely be assigned other work.

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Dazzag
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Posted: 7th Jun 2007 19:05 Edited at: 7th Jun 2007 19:07
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Quote: "there are hundreds of positions, projects and jobs"
Yeah, same with us. Think there was about 2500 people at it's largest and you could, in theory, end up anywhere. I was in Dubai for 3 months, and a friend ended up coding in Australia opposite the beach for the last 10 years. Unfortuantly it is very very rarely our decision in our company. We have one micro-managing director who basically is like God. Managers have moved to other departments on a moments notice (like half an hours notice to move thier laptops) from departments they have been in for years (friend of mine was told the day before he was moving after 15 years or so in the same department) with no discussion. All decided by the director. Not that I'm complaining. I resigned and the bloke basically chucked back the can't resist offer within 5 minutes (and I haven't even spoken to him since 2003 when he used to microexamine my specifications as he does when he doesn't know people - only took 2 years of working with him for me).

Cheers

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Current fave quote : "She was like a candle in the wind.... unreliable...."
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Chris K
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Yeah, but that work doesn't have a strict time limit in the same way a game does. You just get put onto research and development for the next version or support and maintainance for the current one.

If the game team is really struggling then someone from the engine team might be enlisted to help, but it is not that likely because they won't know the game well enough.

-= Out here in the fields, I fight for my meals =-
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Fallout
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Posted: 7th Jun 2007 20:05 Edited at: 7th Jun 2007 20:08
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Quote: "Fallout did you never try for a job in the games industry? If not, why not?"


No. I considered it at one point, but never seriously. I think I assumed it'd be far too competitive and I also wasn't really equiped with the right languages up until the final year of my degree (as I didn't do Computer Science). Even then, I did Java and C#, which are obviously C, but they're not C++.

I'm just not a lover of coding either. It's a means to an end. I love the whole development process (design, media and coding). And there are so many crap games .... in fact, I'm not enough of a game lover to just love everything (so I'd be working on games I thought were crap), so I'm sure I'd find the whole industry very frustrating.

In hind sight, it might've allowed me to move to game design, which I think would ultimately be the most rewarding position. Perhaps still a career move I'll consider at some point, but definitely not attacted to the idea of being a game programmer. Long hours, pigeon holed into one role, little to no input on game design. It wouldn't be anything like indie development ... you'd code one thing, with little say on how the game came together, and miss out on the best part of game dev, which in my opinion is bringing your ideas to life. They'd be someone elses ideas, and 95% of the time, someone elses very crap ideas.


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Agent Dink
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Posted: 7th Jun 2007 20:15
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I would do this for a few years:

-Hate your job, make rediculus sums of money. (Sports cars, massive houses, villas, yachts)

Then when I have enough stuff after a few years, switch over to this:

-Don't mind you job, and make ok money. (Live well enough with a few toys)

Then a few years later after all my ivestments have increased and made me rich, switch over to:

-Love your job, and really struggle to pay the bills.

Only, I wouldn't struggle to pay the bills, because my first job made sure there wouldn't be an issue.

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lagmaster
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this is a slightly similar thing that happened to me.

is worth going for a sector that is somewhat saturated in my area or find a job where it's fixed hours, small workforce and able to work on my own.

i trained up as a it hardware and support person but near the end of my training i felt like it wasnt for me. eventually i found a job and it's, sorting mail.

-Don't mind you job, and make ok money. (Live well enough with a few toys)

i have enough money to go clubbing most weekends if i wanted to. but there's mostly money leftover each time the wages comes in.

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Josh
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Posted: 7th Jun 2007 23:15
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-Love your job, and really struggle to pay the bills.

Loving your job is more important, life is just too short to put up with a crap job, it'll just drag you down.

If you're not enterprising enough to run your own business (by far the best job ever! ) then go for something that will pay your bills, but which you also enjoy doing.

I absolutely hate the part-time job I have atm, its simply a means to get my business off the ground. I would choose doing 10x the work and enjoying it over working for someone else in a crap job any day. I can’t wait until SpidaHost becomes self sufficient enough for me to quit my job!

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Fallout
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Posted: 7th Jun 2007 23:22
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Quote: "-Don't mind you job, and make ok money. (Live well enough with a few toys)

i have enough money to go clubbing most weekends if i wanted to. but there's mostly money leftover each time the wages comes in."


Here's the question though mate, are you saving for your pension? I'm guessing you're fairly young like myself, but if you don't make enough money to save, you're gonna be royally screwed when you retire. It's not something I've started or really considered yet either.

State pensions are nothing these days, and I bet when we get to retirement age, there might not even be a state pension. My point being, if you're only making a bit of money, but you're happy enough, are you gonna be able to afford to live later on in life?

Just another thing to worry about!


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Jess T
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Posted: 8th Jun 2007 05:40
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I'm aiming for;
-Like your job, and make poor money. (Just about get by, with the odd pleasure)

I love making games, and I slo love programming (any kind, as long as it's not monotonous).
What would be ideal for me would be Lead Programmer on a small to medium sized team (5 to 30 people).

I'm almost half way through my 3rd year in a 4 year B.C.S. Games Technology, and I love every second of it. We're in a little team at the moment (4 people) which is expanding to a larger team in about a month and a half (9 people), which I'll hopefully be able to assume the role of lead programmer. It's my first real taste, and so far, I want the whole meal!

It can lead to insecurity in jobs, but I don't mind... If I'm put out, I'll struggle, but I'll keep making indie games on the side. As long as I have enough to get by (Check Out person at a Supermarket) and my computer, I'm happy to do any kind of programming I can dream up

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Jeku
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Posted: 8th Jun 2007 08:19 Edited at: 8th Jun 2007 08:21
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Quote: "However, I do make decent money(for someone who should be making minimum wage), about 7.50 an hour."


Wow, minimum wage is low there I take it. We're almost at $10/hr. minimum here

Quote: "Not if you are an engineer though, the engine will be well finished by the time the game starts crunching."


Hmmm I'm in crunch time now, and have only had 3 days off (including weekends) in the month of May. And I'm a software engineer. The engine is never "finished", especially in games that are "re-visited" every year.

Dammit. Well, there's a light at the end of the tunnel. I will get free time off after this project--- between 5-10 days hopefully--- on top of my regular vacation.

But anyways, yah, I'm in the middle of that scenario. I don't make great money, but compared to the rest of our country I am on the high end. And, I love my job (well, about 11 months of the year of it )

What's absolute worst is doing something you hate and making crap pay. I used to do telephone tech support for $12/hr. when I was in university. That *really sucked*.

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