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Geek Culture / Project Joystick - game dev competition Australia - $1 million +

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indi
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Posted: 21st Jun 2007 02:47
http://offers.bigpond.com/joystick/index.htm

Jess T
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Posted: 21st Jun 2007 05:56
Nice.

Shame I'm a programmer, not a designer, otherwise I'd be entering that without a second thought!

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Matt Rock
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Posted: 21st Jun 2007 06:37 Edited at: 21st Jun 2007 06:39
Hot, thanks for this Indi! Time to start writing a Design Document for one of my many epics . I'm curious who the judges are though, and if this is open to anyone outside Australia... guess I'll need to go find out.

Edit: ACK! Only open to Australia residents

Jess T
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Posted: 21st Jun 2007 07:27
Ouch, clause 38 really sucks!

Basically, if you're in the top ten, you must give up the idea, in its entirety, to the people running the competition, and you don't get to keep IP rights!

Also, there's some dodgy stuff in there about how you forfeit moral rights within 'Comments', etc. So basically, as I read it, you're giving permission for them to make you look like a complete jackass, and there's sweet f-a you can do about it!

After I posted, I thought... Hmm, actually, I've got a couple ideas I wouldn't mind seeing come to life. But, for $20,000 in prizes (pretty crap ones too, if you ask me ), and at the expense of completely losing my idea, I think I'll steer well clear now

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indi
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Posted: 21st Jun 2007 07:30
same here, telstra is a dog

greenlig
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Posted: 21st Jun 2007 09:01
Yeah, just read through the terms too. Pretty anal.

That said, it might be a nice leg-up.

Greenlig

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Shadow heart
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Posted: 21st Jun 2007 11:17
well i dont' want to give em' the rights to the game. but interesting. though

to the ones thats trapped inside of you, this is it!!
Cash Curtis II
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Posted: 21st Jun 2007 11:22
Well, in a situation like this, you've got to be honest - the likelihood that any of our ideas are actually worth money is very, very, very low. Given the chance to make some money off of one isn't such a bad thing.

I mean, let's say you win. So they have your game and your idea. You've got the money, your source code, and your media. There are so many ways to get around the rules. You could simply make some changes to your game and release it yourself. Change the style, change the gameplay a bit, change the textures. They'll never know the difference.


Come see the WIP!
Jess T
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Posted: 21st Jun 2007 14:32
Cash, that's treading on very thin Ice there...

While it is possible to get around copyright by changing certain major aspects to make it distinguishable from the original, you'd still be opening yourself up to all sorts. And one puny person against a huge company... No chance.

At any rate, if you've got the idea that will win, it must be something pretty damned special (there criteria are all about inovation, and novel uses of ideas, etc), so why not get a team together and make it yourself, or sell it to a studie requiring royalties on sales. You'd easily make the 20,000 back, and it'd be in cash, not 12 months worth of crappy broadband, or a new mobile phone!

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Cash Curtis II
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Posted: 21st Jun 2007 14:45 Edited at: 21st Jun 2007 16:17
If I were Australian I'd enter. I'm not saying I'd win, but I'd give it my best. No harm in that.

Quote: "so why not get a team together and make it yourself, or sell it to a studie requiring royalties on sales."

I've already got a game that two different publishers want, and you already know that. I don't understand your point. I must already have someting special and also be quite capable of thinking of decent ideas, you think?

I always tread on thin ice. Perhaps my methods don't agree with everyone, but they're usually very effective.

[Edit]
@Chris K -
Quote: "Two publishers want Geisha House?"

Yeah


Come see the WIP!
Chris K
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Posted: 21st Jun 2007 15:09
Two publishers want Geisha House?

-= Out here in the fields, I fight for my meals =-
Matt Rock
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Posted: 21st Jun 2007 22:19
Quote: "the likelihood that any of our ideas are actually worth money is very, very, very low."

I don't know about that, I think a lot of people here have fantastic ideas, they might just not know how to deliver them, or they might not/ probably don't have the resources required to see their vision reach its full potential. I'll go so far as to say that many of these ideas far surpass what the mainstream industry is releasing right now, but then without the resources that are required to make a full game, let alone sell millions of copies, these ideas struggle to get off the ground. I don't think it's an issue of worthwhile ideas as much as it's an issue of ambition and dedication.

MikeB
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Posted: 22nd Jun 2007 00:10
I've had some ideas for games I was pretty proud of... It's one of the reasons I got into coding and 3d modelling etc.

E.D.

Call me Mike please
Jeku
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Posted: 22nd Jun 2007 06:52 Edited at: 22nd Jun 2007 06:53
Quote: "or sell it to a studie requiring royalties on sales. You'd easily make the 20,000 back, and it'd be in cash, not 12 months worth of crappy broadband, or a new mobile phone!"


Um, huh? There is about a 1 in a million chance that one of us will make a game that will be published (by big name publishers). We need to accept that--- I would take the cash and run. If you think you have a great idea and somebody will pay you $20k for it, you're telling me you wouldn't give it to them? Is your last name Gates by chance?

And where are these studios you refer to that will pay you for your ideas? They're absolutely nowhere. We already had a thread where someone was asking where to sell a game idea. Those companies just don't exist. It's a pipe dream.

Cash Curtis II
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Posted: 22nd Jun 2007 07:20
@Matt Rock -
Ideas are a dime a dozen. Sure, people might have great ideas, but they aren't worth a penny unless they can somehow come to fruition. How often does that happen? The ones that do come to fruition, how often do they make money? Next to never.

To be very honest with you, I don't see many good ideas here. I see lots of vague desires to make clones of other games. Few ideas are original, fewer are developed to the point of being usable, and like I've already said they practically never amount to anything. That's just reality. All we can do is endeavor to break free of that.


Come see the WIP!
Jess T
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Posted: 22nd Jun 2007 11:18
Cash, that statement was more to anyone reading, not directed to you, I know you've got Geisha House kicking along, and if there's two publishers interested, theres your $20K idea there

Jeku,
I talking more in generalities - I feel quite strongly that giving my ideas away is wrong. (I'd never suvive in a Communist society )

Cash, the main problem with ideas around this place is that most developers here don't take game making seriously (as a career). Come end of next year, I'll be looking for a job in the industry after completing my Honours. If I can, I want to start my own company in a couple years, and I have a couple ideas that I think would sell a bundle (ones that I wouldn't have minded giving up to the compo in a stripped back form if I could keep the IP rights to make it myself).

At any rate, I still don't want to enter the competition

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Hobgoblin Lord
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Posted: 22nd Jun 2007 19:42
Quote: "To be very honest with you, I don't see many good ideas here. I see lots of vague desires to make clones of other games. Few ideas are original, fewer are developed to the point of being usable, and like I've already said they practically never amount to anything. That's just reality. All we can do is endeavor to break free of that."


Ouch

I looked at the compo and hit the Australians only rule and blah. Still for even crappy prizes If you designed a shipped title it would be worth it in the long run, especially if it did well.

Matt Rock
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Posted: 22nd Jun 2007 20:51
I don't know Cash, I think some ideas are definitely worth money. I often find myself reading about a game and saying "wow, I'll pay for that." I mean heck, you're making one of those games right now. There's a serious difference between an idea for a game and an actual game design, and because so many people don't realize that and submit weak concepts, the mainstream industry uses that "dime a dozen" analogy to death, often at the expense of genuine designs that aren't taken seriously. No one can blame them, I'm sure I'd probably get pretty fed up with people submitting a thousand ideas to me per day as well. I think it's a vicious circle: people submit ideas, not games, to studios. The studios get tired of reading millions of poorly-concieved concepts and opt for licensed IP instead of original IP. Then you end up playing Shrek: The Game instead of something based on an original concept.

All of that being said, I still think some designs are worth money. But there's a catch-22 there, in that most of us can't afford to make those concepts truly come to life, or don't have all of the necessary skills (3D and 2D art, foley, music, voice acting, etc.) to do it ourselves. And because it's rare (or maybe even impossible) to find a true jack-of-all-trades, the games end up not being as fantastic as they could be, and you end up with projects that don't reach their full potential. So, the concept is great, the design is even better, but they can't really get the idea to come to life because they can't acquire high-quality assets. Anyway, I think that's the real problem. I don't think there's any issue with the quality of ideas, just the lack of artistic talent in various fields to bring those ideas to life.

Jeku
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Posted: 23rd Jun 2007 22:06
Actually, game companies will not read unsolicited ideas, so it's not an issue for them at *all*. This is what producers and game designers are for--- they come up with the ideas, but they're already staffed at the company to start with. There is absolutely *no* way you can pitch an idea at, say, Activision and they'll give you cash for it. It's a fantasy.

Cash Curtis II
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Posted: 24th Jun 2007 00:43
@Matt Rock -
I respect you and your game making endeavors. However, I believe that you have a convoluted view of reality when it comes to matters of business and money. Consider this - if some of the ideas and game designs on this forum were worth money on their own merit, someone would have been able to sell them for money. Nobody ever has. It will never happen. A company will not pay an outsider for an idea. I challenge you to sell a game idea/design to a company.

We are indie developers because we want to develop our ideas into games. If I could get a big company to make Geisha House, don't you think I would? No matter how good or well developed my idea is, it will never happen. The only thing that I can hope to do is establish myself by making a good game and one day either work for a good company or start my own (small) company.


Come see the WIP!
Matt Rock
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Posted: 24th Jun 2007 03:18
@ Jeku: As I said, there's a difference between an idea and a design. I must have misunderstood something, or maybe I was misunderstood, but it was my understanding that with a well-written/ planned design document and a quality presentation (including a demo of the game), you could set up interviews at game studios and potentially break into their ranks as a designer. I was trying to point out the difference between an idea and a design: people send their ideas to companies all the time. Whether or not the company in question reads the idea is irrelevant to my point that they're assuredly annoyed with it. I mean, that's why these unsolicited ideas are ignored in the first place (well, other than the obvious legal ramifications)... there's simply too many filling an inbox at any given time to consider any of them.

But then there's a design, and as I understand it, there are ways of presenting designs to mainstream studios. Maybe it's my lack of desire to work in the mainstream industry that's the root of my confusion, but that's how I always understood it. There are certain channels to go through when presenting a design, and certain methods of doing it, but it can and has been done... or maybe I'm wrong, and every designer in the mainstream industry started out in the proverbial mailroom. Again, it's just an assumption, but that's what I've been made to understand.

@ Cash: That's another reason why I'm so bullheaded about MISoft handling its own distribution/ marketing. Take EE for instance: no publisher in their right mind would go near it. It's an extreme niche market with no genuine, known consumer-base. But still, the very small handful of people who've bought it so far are absolutely in love with it, and I think there's definitely a chance it could pick up and start selling down the road as I learn more about publishing. But let's say I get successful, and over the next few games I learn more about marketing/ publishing. I would have the capacity, mentally and monetarily, to properly advertise a game and generate serious, noteworthy profit. Already I've made it further than some people thought I would... Most people said I wouldn't sell a single copy. Jeku said I would only sell 2 copies in some thread a while back, and we've already topped that (4 copies, woot!) lol.

Anyway, my point is, I think some ideas are worth money, but the idea-makers don't rightly know what goals to set, let alone how to reach them. That's why a lot of ideas never come into fruition. With Geisha House, I'm assuming you'll get it published and that's (hopefully) how you'll get recognition and at least a decent payday. With me, I'll keep trying to learn about publishing and marketing, and (hopefully) over time I'll build a fan-base and sell more copies of the games I make. They're two completely different routes to the same goal, but I think a lot of people don't know about either route... if they gave it a credible try, I think some of these ideas we see on TGC could develop into profit-turning games.

Jeku
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Posted: 24th Jun 2007 05:29
Quote: "but it was my understanding that with a well-written/ planned design document and a quality presentation (including a demo of the game), you could set up interviews at game studios and potentially break into their ranks as a designer."


Yes, that's correct. I can tell you from experience that even when I applied as a software engineer at a few game companies, they were all interested in my game WordTrix. It was a unique idea, and I explained to them how I prototyped it in DBP then wrote it in C++, and how there were tens of thousands of downloads. If you're applying to be a producer at a game company, a demo of a game can not hurt you at all. If anything it will separate you from the rest of the pack.

Quote: "or maybe I'm wrong, and every designer in the mainstream industry started out in the proverbial mailroom."


Hehe most game companies hire producers straight up--- you don't have to start as "coffee boy" or anything like that. I have many friends from where I work who started as assistant producer and are moving up. And I've seen software engineers move horizontally over to production.

Quote: "Jeku said I would only sell 2 copies in some thread a while back, and we've already topped that (4 copies, woot!) lol."


Did I say that? Sorry--- I was probably in a bad mood Anyways, congrats on sticking to your guns.

------------

On a side note, I've seen a *lot* of indie companies get bought out in the last few years, so that's not out of the question. If you've got a successful game and an elusive brand, there's always that option. But honestly I've never heard of a guy coming off the streets with a game design doc and getting a game deal. I don't think that's even possible

Matt Rock
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Posted: 24th Jun 2007 22:14
Quote: "Hehe most game companies hire producers straight up--- you don't have to start as "coffee boy" or anything like that. I have many friends from where I work who started as assistant producer and are moving up. And I've seen software engineers move horizontally over to production."

I have a friend who works at Rockstar who started out as a tester, and now he's in some new position with a fancy title... I'm not exactly sure what that title is (and now I feel compelled to give him a call to ask, hehe), but I thought that was awesome, that he could start out as a lowly tester, work his way up to pounding booleans, then get moved up the ladder even further to some creative engineering job, all within the course of about three years. Compare that to my dad, who worked at IBM for ten years before getting promoted a notch, and it seems all the more incredible that he moved up the ranks so fast. A peculiar side-note: I know, in some form or another, five people who work in the industry. Three of them are named Jake. What's that about, lol.

Quote: "Did I say that? Sorry--- I was probably in a bad mood Anyways, congrats on sticking to your guns."

I didn't take it personally or anything, and to be honest, it's been proved accurate so far. But hopefully I'll start learning more about publishing and marketing and eventually see this or a future game sell a noteworthy number of copies. I'm not going to call it a failure until I've released five commercial games and they've all gone bust... hopefully in the course of five games I should have learned a thing or two about getting sales, else it's time for a new career path, lol. Motion Picture industry anyone?

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