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Newcomers DBPro Corner / sparkys collision dll,why not in dbp?

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David iz cool
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Posted: 18th Jul 2007 22:41
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if sparkys collision dll is so great (which i think it is very good),why dont tgc implement it into dbp??
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david w
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Posted: 18th Jul 2007 22:43
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I agree they should just delete the current collision .dll and replace it with sparkys.
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vorconan
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Posted: 19th Jul 2007 00:09
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I think this was brought up in sparky's v2 collision thread, something about being too much hassle to implant it. Thats what I recall anyway,


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Sixty Squares
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Posted: 19th Jul 2007 00:40
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@david w: Well, not delete the old one but adding Sparky's sounds good. The only reason I say not to delete the old one is because some games still use it and would be rendered useless without it.

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vibe runner
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Posted: 19th Jul 2007 01:32
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David. As these people have said, it's mainly about backward compatiblity.

Sparky's DLL and the Matrix1 DLLs are really truly *core* DBP functionality.
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david w
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Posted: 19th Jul 2007 02:44
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I understand. I didnt think about that. But your right. It should at least be included like how they included AT. But thats just my opinion.
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Code Dragon
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Posted: 19th Jul 2007 03:40
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If it ever does get integrated, most likely the old collision system will remain intact but the commands sparky's replaces like intersect object and object collision will be deleted. Maybe they'll integrate it for DBP x10.

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vibe runner
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Posted: 19th Jul 2007 03:57
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I don't know if they'll integrate it in DBX10, but I certainly hope they give us something akin to Sparky's collision anyway, along with the essential functions of EZ Rotate.

I'd say EZRotate is as-essential for DBP as Sparkys. But at least Sparky's is free. I know someone outside TGC created EZ, and I bought it, but it does kinda grate that you have to buy something to give you (what really should be) core functionality.
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Code Dragon
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Posted: 19th Jul 2007 13:59 Edited at: 19th Jul 2007 14:02
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Well they probably won't integrate EZ rotate because that would lose them sales on the plugin and raise the price of the core software ti make up for that.

I don't see it as very essential though, when I need rotate something I usually write my own functions to do it because I don't like the way that most plugins handle their interface functions. But sparky's really should be integrated, it already is free.

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vibe runner
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Posted: 19th Jul 2007 14:42
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I don't see why working, functional rotation utilities should be kept from the core product just to force people to buy them.

You might as well have loading of objects, the RGB command, or any number of others, as seperate DLL objects.

Perhaps one fifteen buck DLL per DBP command? THAT'D rake it in!
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BatVink
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Posted: 19th Jul 2007 17:56
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As Sparky now works for TGC, maybe we'll see it as part of the product one day. But he's a busy man.

EZ rotate isn't core functionality, it's alternative functionality. Rotation in DBP works, but it requires an understanding of Euler angles. I own EzRotate, and I can't live without it, but that's because I don't understand how to manipulate Euler rotation properly. I blame me for the issue


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Zotoaster
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Posted: 19th Jul 2007 19:29
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Quote: "but it requires an understanding of Euler angles."

And this is a language designed for beginners. If you could understand Euler angles, you are probably of pure DirectX standards Therefore, I think rotation should be a core functionality in DB.

"It's like floating a boat on a liquid that I don't know, but I'm quite happy to drink it if I'm thirsty enough" - Me being a good programmer but sucking at computers
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Jane Doe
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Posted: 19th Jul 2007 20:53
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BatVink's right. There isn't anything that you can do with EZRotate that you can't do with the native DBPro commands. When faced with the decision to either master the math or to purchase EZRotate, I chose the latter. When I had to choose a collision system, I chose to make my own ray-casting system using only native DBPro commands instead of using Sparky's.

We are all constantly making decisions regarding our programs and the way that those decisions will be implemented. We all also have our own strengths and weaknesses. I doubt that there is anyone who is really strong in the fields of game design, level design, programming, 2D art, 3D art, animation, sound effects, music, play testing and all the other skills that go into making a game. The fact that we are here now discussing this and innumerable other topics is a testament to that.

DBPro isn't perfect (what is?), but the fact that we all need a little help now and again from an outside source is more a reflection of our own inadequacies than DBPro's.

- Jane
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Zotoaster
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Posted: 19th Jul 2007 21:40
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Quote: "but the fact that we all need a little help now and again from an outside source is more a reflection of our own inadequacies than DBPro's."

Well does the fact that we use DBP mean that we are "inadequate" to use more professional languages such as C/C++? I personally can use C, but I use DBPro because of it's ease, and I can make things on the fly, and sometimes that involves good rotation. I'm not going to spend ages making studying Euler rotation just for simple tests, I would expect it to be implemented into DBP.

"It's like floating a boat on a liquid that I don't know, but I'm quite happy to drink it if I'm thirsty enough" - Me being a good programmer but sucking at computers
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vibe runner
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Posted: 19th Jul 2007 21:47
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Am I wrong in thinking you cannot use local and global roations in DBP accurately? That is if you start mixing global and local rotation, it goes wrong? Isn't that one of the the very selling/boasting points of EZ-rotate? Isn't there a demo in EZ rotate proving that?
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Zotoaster
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Posted: 19th Jul 2007 21:52
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I think that all local rotation really does in DBP is cleverly change the global rotations, don't quote me on that though.

"It's like floating a boat on a liquid that I don't know, but I'm quite happy to drink it if I'm thirsty enough" - Me being a good programmer but sucking at computers
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Jane Doe
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Posted: 20th Jul 2007 01:24
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Zotoaster -

Your comments have illustrated my point precisely. We can use C/C++ which has greater capability and performance, or we can use DBPro which is faster and easier to use. Or we could use something else. That's a choice we make.

We can master trigonometry and use the trig functions that come with DBPro to do rotation, or we can use EZRotate to do it for us. That's a choice we make as well.

I take your point that it would be nice to have commands to simplify this task and other tasks too numerous to list, but the reality is that no programming language is going to have everything we want and that the things it does have may not be implemented the way we would like.

Also consider, no one needs everything. What does the person making a 2D game care about 3D rotation? If there were a programming language that did every single thing that anyone could ever want, it would probably be prohibitively expensive (for most of us). Then we would be complaining about having to pay more for a collection of features we don't need, instead of having to pay for features we do. At least this system allows us to choose.


- Jane
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Zotoaster
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Posted: 20th Jul 2007 01:55
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DBPro may be able to do 2D, but it was made in 3D, and I'll be honest, the work they put into matrix4 commands could have probably been used to make descent rotation.

I'll rephrase my first point. The point in DBP is to simplify things, so you dont have to be a master at anything, you just have to be able to code, so unless I know alot about Euler rotation, I am screwed. I could go learn Euler rotation, but then again.. I could go learn how to make my own 3D engine, or, I could just use DBP!

"It's like floating a boat on a liquid that I don't know, but I'm quite happy to drink it if I'm thirsty enough" - Me being a good programmer but sucking at computers
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vibe runner
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Posted: 20th Jul 2007 12:11
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It wouldn't be so bad if Euler rotation is SO difficult. Only a very, very good programmer and mathematician has a hope of mastering it. The same is not true of EZ-rotate. That demonstrates you have have very impressive, efficient rotation that is also easy to understand. DBP sells and boasts of it's ease of use. This is true until you try rotation, which is hideouly difficult. The vast majority of new DBP coders have zero chance of mastering it (or even gaining low-level competency in it).

At least there's a minimal-function EZ-rotate for free. Thank goodness.

Zotoaster - there is a EZ-rotate demo that shows DBP's global and local rotation in action, along with it's own. Mixing global and local rotation in DBP leads to inaccurate rotation. I'm certain there's a EZ demo that demonstrates that.
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Code Dragon
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Posted: 21st Jul 2007 16:47
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I don't get what you are doing that makes euler angles so hard. Am I missing something here? The hardest thing I've ever had to do with euler angles is construct a function that returns the difference between two angles. Are you using complicated physics or something?

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zOrigin
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Posted: 5th Aug 2007 08:06
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Quote: "I don't get what you are doing that makes euler angles so hard. Am I missing something here? The hardest thing I've ever had to do with euler angles is construct a function that returns the difference between two angles. Are you using complicated physics or something?"


Maybe Your Just A Very Good Programmer Like Vibe Runner Said:

Quote: "Only a very, very good programmer and mathematician has a hope of mastering it"
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