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Geek Culture / Glad I quit Second Life earlier this year, they have officially banned gambling

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Jeku
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Posted: 26th Jul 2007 21:20
Running a casino is one of the best ways to make money in Second Life, but they have finally succumbed to the US online gambling laws and banned it altogether. Now, regardless of where you live, you can't gamble there.

http://theinquirer.net/default.aspx?article=41240

I don't hang around Second Life anymore, but when I did, I operated a small casino with games that I scripted myself (Blackjack, etc.) Good thing I cashed out when I did. What else is there to do in SL?

PowerSoft
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Posted: 26th Jul 2007 21:22
Well perhaps it'll encourage some people to finally get lives and not to live in cyberspace hopefully!

The Innuendo's, 4 Piece Indie Rock Band
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Seppuku Arts
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Posted: 26th Jul 2007 21:31
Perhaps Blair should have made his super casino there, as Brown has scrapped the idea almost as soon as he came into power.

Though gambling is good as long as you spend what you're willing to lose...unfortunately, there's a hell of a lot of people that'll risk it thinking 'lady luck' is on their side, but she's basically the DBP command rnd(), anything can happen.

And yes, it'll encourage people to live in the real world. Though World of Warcraft, Habbo Hotel and MySpace stand in the way there.

Hakuna Matata
PowerSoft
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Posted: 26th Jul 2007 21:33
I use Myspace and still have a life....

The Innuendo's, 4 Piece Indie Rock Band
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Jeku
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Posted: 26th Jul 2007 21:51 Edited at: 26th Jul 2007 21:51
Quote: "I use Myspace and still have a life...."


And I used to use SL and still have a life. You mistakenly assume people who play online games don't have a life

PowerSoft
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Posted: 26th Jul 2007 21:52
No, it wasn't directed at you or the vast majority of users Jeku, just the minority that are obsessed, point well proven though

The Innuendo's, 4 Piece Indie Rock Band
http://theinnuendos.tk:::http://myspace.com/theinnuendosrock
Seppuku Arts
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Posted: 26th Jul 2007 22:12
I use MySpace and too have a life, don't you worry, I was attacking the same sort of audience as you were.

Hakuna Matata
PowerSoft
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Posted: 26th Jul 2007 22:16
haha, I see

The Innuendo's, 4 Piece Indie Rock Band
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Hobgoblin Lord
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Posted: 26th Jul 2007 22:27
what you need to do is make a virtual MMO, Third Life perhaps, that second life characters can play and need to pay for

GatorHex
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Posted: 27th Jul 2007 02:50
Maybe they should sell guns to citizens instead, it's obviously less harmful than gambling

DinoHunter (still no nVidia compo voucher!), CPU/GPU Benchmark, DarkFish Encryption DLL, War MMOG (WIP), 3D Model Viewer
tha_rami
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Posted: 27th Jul 2007 04:15
Well, we sure set priorities, don't we? We still have SL prostitutes scripted to be flexible enough to do any possible movement with any possible limb on their body and the like, but gambling is forbidden.

Never played it, never will. What a load of crap.

GatorHex
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Posted: 27th Jul 2007 05:41
I suppose if gambling goes underground it will add a cetain risk element to the game

DinoHunter (still no nVidia compo voucher!), CPU/GPU Benchmark, DarkFish Encryption DLL, War MMOG (WIP), 3D Model Viewer
Nicholas Thompson
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Posted: 27th Jul 2007 11:09
I agree with Gatorhex about illegalizing gambling, but selling guns. Seems a little odd to me - but then again a lot of politics seem odd to me which is why i'm not in it...

This is a pretty stupid move by SL. I understand its illegal in the US - but there is very little else to do in the game and SL is going to lose a LOT of money from land rental alone, let alone the revenue generated by the money invested by gambling agencies.

Surely it would have made more sense to simple move the servers to somewhere like the UK or Russia. I dont KNOW - but surely the FBI cant do anything against a Russian or British server which is hosting gambling if an AOL user in Texas decides to log into it...

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GatorHex
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Posted: 27th Jul 2007 11:15 Edited at: 27th Jul 2007 11:25
It's still illegal to host online gambling in the UK, all those ads you see on TV with .co.uk domain names redirect to offshore islands

Seems strange they made it illegal to host but not illegal to play and advertise, doh!

Looks like it may be legalised again in the UK soon because they feel they are missing out on the tax

They have arrested Brits who have flown into USA airspace so if you have gambling inyour game DO NOT travel there!

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2006/07/17/betting_boss_held_dallas/

DinoHunter (still no nVidia compo voucher!), CPU/GPU Benchmark, DarkFish Encryption DLL, War MMOG (WIP), 3D Model Viewer
Nicholas Thompson
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Posted: 27th Jul 2007 11:22
Oh that's just stupid...
"You did something in your country we consider illegal in ours - so you're under arrest"

You simply CANT do that! Although the internet is global - I think its wrong to have one country impose its legal system on another like this.

Gah I find things like this so frustrating - especially as I cant vent my frustration here because it would break the AUP!

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GatorHex
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Posted: 27th Jul 2007 11:35 Edited at: 27th Jul 2007 11:48
They have a catch all "wire fraud" law which the FBI used to stop the Mafia and now terrorism but any communications to the USA via the telephone lines can result in your extradition under this law because they concider you crime entered their borders!

http://news.independent.co.uk/business/news/article1116630.ece

As they also have software patents they can arrest you too for things such as copying Abodes Dockable Tool Palette. There is no way I would want to step foot in the US it's a programmers nightmare.

DinoHunter (still no nVidia compo voucher!), CPU/GPU Benchmark, DarkFish Encryption DLL, War MMOG (WIP), 3D Model Viewer
Nicholas Thompson
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Posted: 27th Jul 2007 12:07 Edited at: 27th Jul 2007 12:08
[IRC]/me wishes he could say more but a combination of the AUP and low-iq-trolls would get the thread locked[/IRC]

Well what I now consider ironic is this...
1) Google is a US based company
2) Google context sensitive advertising (AdSense) is on this forum
3) This forum is hosted in the US
4) This forum (for me right now) has Casino (ie gambling) related Adlinks at the top.

Who is breaking the law, if anyone, right now?

Google are providing the Ads, but TGC are hosting in the US. I'm browsing from the UK, but my communication line is entering the US due to server location. Although I have no choice in what ads come up, it was my connection to this US server who use a US company for advertising who pay you in US dollars that caused those ads to appear.

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GatorHex
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Posted: 27th Jul 2007 12:18 Edited at: 27th Jul 2007 12:19
I personaly don't agree with gambling, but i don't agree it should be outlawed completely. I would instead suggest limits like don't take more than £100/$200 per month from an account. Sure some people may make multiple accounts but it shows your business tried to limit the damage.

At the moment if i had a MMORPG with a gambling feature (even though its virtual money) I feel I would have to have the NPC ask.. "are you from the USA" if player says "yes" the NPC replies "i'm sorry the casino is closed." If they lied to the NPC then at least you tried and it's not your fault

DinoHunter (still no nVidia compo voucher!), CPU/GPU Benchmark, DarkFish Encryption DLL, War MMOG (WIP), 3D Model Viewer
Nicholas Thompson
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Posted: 27th Jul 2007 13:28
I personally cant see the problem with just having a casino. If someone has a gambling problem then that problem is the PERSONS problem - NOT the casino.

If I get depressed, take a gun and shoot myself - that's MY problem. Its not the problem of the person who made the gun.

If someone cant afford to gamble more than £100 then they shouldn't. Some people CAN afford it, some people ENJOY doing it and some people do VERY well out of gambling more than £100 a go.

The problem is people dont know their limits or when to stop and that isn't just limited to gambling. Humans in general dont know when to stop. You see it everywhere.

You see a family where neither parents are capable of doing a job however they decided it'd be a good idea to bring 12 children into the world - so the public's taxes have to pay for them. They didn't know when to stop or what their limits were.

You see people going out and drinking FAR too much - no concept of limits or moderation.

Generally speaking there is nothing wrong with most things as long as their done in moderation. In fact there are theories that a little alcohol is good for you (like Red Wine).

I dont believe that Gambling should be made illegal and I don't believe it should be limited. What SHOULD be done is a change in the way education is handled. Schools now are a complete joke - in my opinion and the UK at least.

Schools teach students to pass tests - they don't teach them any transferable and useful skills. For example, I learned a whole load of stuff at GCSE Chemistry. I dont need it now - unlikely I'll ever need it again. Just wasted hours of youth where I could have been learning something useful for like - for example cooking. My school NEVER covered anything cooking related. Very few schools go into cooking and nutrition in any great depth and... oh look, the UK youth population is generally obese!

Schools don't teach anything to do with managing personal finance and... oh look, the UK has serious debt problems!

Schools DO teach you to pass exams and make you believe that the holy grail of future success is going to Uni. Uni (from my experience) teaches you again to pass exams and turns you into an academic rather than someone with useful skills... And.. oh look, there is a deluge of students coming out of uni and being unable to find graduate jobs.

I get frustrated when politicians spend so much time farting about over irrelevant and pointless stuff like banning gambling when there are FAR bigger future problems along the lines of climate change, a huge hole in the pension funds (in the UK), obese children, bored teens shooting people, etc...

I saw an ad a few months back quoting someone (cant remember who or what it was about) but the quote was "Obese child dies young and the pension problem is solved". That made me smile - until I realised I probably fell into the "obese" column

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Benjamin
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Posted: 27th Jul 2007 14:53
Quote: "If I get depressed, take a gun and shoot myself - that's MY problem. Its not the problem of the person who made the gun."

So do you also think all kinds of hard drugs should be legalized too? After all it's surely the responsibility of the person who takes them.

Tempest (DBP/DBCe)
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Nicholas Thompson
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Posted: 27th Jul 2007 14:58
Quote: "Generally speaking there is nothing wrong with most things as long as their done in moderation."


I covered my ass on that one

Obviously there are cases for illegalising some things - for example guns. Although if I chose to kill myself with a gun, its MY choice - if I chose to kill anyone else with it... It's not really THEIR choice

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Benjamin
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Posted: 27th Jul 2007 15:06
Quote: "I covered my ass on that one"

So how do you do something addictive in moderation?

Tempest (DBP/DBCe)
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Agent Dink
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Posted: 27th Jul 2007 15:58
Quote: "Generally speaking there is nothing wrong with most things as long as their done in moderation."


So child molesting is ok if you do it only once in awhile?



Zeus
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Posted: 27th Jul 2007 17:05
I use YouTube and still have a life...



Nicholas Thompson
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Posted: 27th Jul 2007 17:10
@Benjamin: That's the point - those two are opposite. You CANT do something addictive in moderation so the key is to not get addicted. When I said people "dont know their limits or when to stop" I was hinting towards lack of self control.

@Agent Dink:
Quote: "nothing wrong with most things"


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Benjamin
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Posted: 27th Jul 2007 17:21 Edited at: 27th Jul 2007 17:22
Quote: "You CANT do something addictive in moderation so the key is to not get addicted"

So how do you know how to do so little as to not get addicted? If that's possible of course. I'm sure many people would like to know the answer to that.

Quote: "I was hinting towards lack of self control."

Which is a good reason for the ban; people need protecting from themselves.

Tempest (DBP/DBCe)
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Seppuku Arts
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Posted: 27th Jul 2007 17:32
It is too easy to get addicted to something addictive, a lot of self control is needed to stop addiction, when I tried gambling, I got a high from it, though this was a one off and never returned because I couldn't, smoking is addictive, I've seen people try to moderate themselves and then end up smoking more. And generally, a person moving towards addiction doesn't see that they're addicted or have a problem, unless it's too obvious (like Bulemia) and of course the progress to addiction is gradual and moderation then becomes an extremely difficult task. Then as the moderation of what they're doing is almost impossible and rare, then the government kind of has the right to step in and ban it, kind of like, "If you can't do that responsibly, you can't do it at all', as with right comes responsibility, and living in a society, it goes for the majority and not the minority. Though the minority often loses out.

Hakuna Matata
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Posted: 27th Jul 2007 17:36
@ Agent Dink

Did you just compare gambling to child molesting?

He said "most things", what you suggested could be nowhere near "most things".

This message was brought to you by Grandma industries.

Making yesterdays games, today!
Kentaree
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Posted: 27th Jul 2007 17:43
Quote: "Which is a good reason for the ban; people need protecting from themselves."


According to who? Should I not be allowed to make my own decisions as an adult, within reason? If I wanted to go out and squander my own money, why should anyone be allowed to stop me? Plenty of people run out of money because they like shopping and buying things too much, should that be outlawed too to protect people from themselves?

Nicholas Thompson
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Posted: 27th Jul 2007 17:47 Edited at: 27th Jul 2007 17:48
Quote: "Which is a good reason for the ban; people need protecting from themselves."


I see the pro's and con's to that... SOME people need protecting from themselves - the person who will gamble their life down the drain and start stealing, etc to fund the addiction. THEY need protecting from themselves. "Normal" people don't. Normal people actually get quite frustrated when their freedom's get restricted due to a dumb ass minority.

EDIT: Good point Kentaree...

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Benjamin
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Posted: 27th Jul 2007 18:03 Edited at: 27th Jul 2007 18:16
Quote: "Should I not be allowed to make my own decisions as an adult, within reason?"

Of course you should.

Quote: "THEY need protecting from themselves. "Normal" people don't. Normal people actually get quite frustrated when their freedom's[sic] get restricted due to a dumb ass minority."

Agreed, but do you have any alternative ideas?

Quote: "Plenty of people run out of money because they like shopping and buying things too much"

Is 'running out of money' purely behind the idea of banning gambling?

Tempest (DBP/DBCe)
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Nicholas Thompson
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Posted: 27th Jul 2007 18:34
Quote: "but do you have any alternative ideas"

None - but that's why I'm not in a position of power... I know I dont like the whole "one rule for everyone because a few got addicted".

Quote: "Is 'running out of money' purely behind the idea of banning gambling?"

I think that's what it comes down to - obviously the knock on effect is theft and crime if people run out of money...

Maybe a better alternative is some kind of "license to gamble" - like a Driving license. If you're shown to have an addictive personality or have a previous history of getting in debt or even look like you're addictive, the government or maybe some kind of gambling authority can revoke or temporarily suspend your license.

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GatorHex
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Posted: 27th Jul 2007 18:55 Edited at: 27th Jul 2007 19:03
Quote: "I personally cant see the problem with just having a casino. If someone has a gambling problem then that problem is the PERSONS problem - NOT the casino.
"


The problem is most online gambling sites are greedy, so caused this problem for themselfs. If they have a big gambler they "look after them" give them freebies etc and make sure they keep gambling until they run out of cash.

Like this dude who gambled over £1m mostly in stolen money, no-one ever questioned how he was getting it or if he could afford to lose it.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/dorset/5233930.stm

I wonder if the gambling company gave it back? I doubt it somehow

I know it's not their fault but you have a legal duty of care to your fellow citizens. If you saw a man about to jump off a bridge, and your safty was not in danger, believe it or not in most countries you cannot ignore it and just walk on by.

DinoHunter (still no nVidia compo voucher!), CPU/GPU Benchmark, DarkFish Encryption DLL, War MMOG (WIP), 3D Model Viewer
Jeku
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Posted: 27th Jul 2007 19:35 Edited at: 27th Jul 2007 19:36
Guys, let's keep this about gambling in SL.

If they would have moved the servers offshore, it may have solved the problem, but the company (Linden Labs) resides in San Francisco. Not sure how much legal red tape they'd have to cross. Plus, there's no artificial intelligence powerful enough to automatically detect what they classify as gambling, so to avoid all those geographic legalities, they just banned it outright.

Torrey
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Posted: 27th Jul 2007 20:59
Quote: "Running a casino is one of the best ways to make money in Second Life, but they have finally succumbed to the US online gambling laws and banned it altogether."


These casinos in SL resulted in obtaining money in RL? I haven't played that game before, so I'm not too in tune with what actions these online casinos had. If it actually used real money instead of virutal cash, can someone describe how it all worked? Meaning how did users get their cash tied into and out of the game system that another company hosted?

Jeku
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Posted: 27th Jul 2007 21:12
The company that runs Second Life has a way to transfer to and from US funds right from their site. It's pretty nice that way

soapyfish
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Posted: 28th Jul 2007 04:43
Couldn't they have imposed a limit on the amount that someone could spend in a day?

Even if they implemented something that wasn't completely solid they could at least say they had systems in place to limit the amount of money being spent which might have been enough to please John Law.

Whatever, it's too late now but I just feel like this is going to have little to no impact on anyone except the people who responsibly enjoyed gambling in second life. Everyone knows that.

Jeku
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Posted: 28th Jul 2007 09:01
They can't limit the money, because there are tons of other things to do in SL that aren't gambling. And the law doesn't say you can gamble for only X amount of dollars

GatorHex
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Posted: 28th Jul 2007 10:51 Edited at: 28th Jul 2007 11:11
You may be able to get around gambling laws by making games for money that require "no random chance" to win only skill, just an idea if you still want to make money

eg. a random word is chosen, and the letters mixed up, the player to re-arrange the word and type it in the fastest wins the money.

eq. like gumball rally, you have two locations, players pay to enter race, first to reach the other location wins the prize money.

That's not a game of chance, it's a game of skill, and therefore is not gambling, maybe, well under UK law anyway?

Quote: " Under the rules of the 1968 Gaming Act, all "games of chance" in public where something can be won - money or even just a certificate - must be licensed.

Games of chance, as defined under the Act, include bingo, roulette, blackjack and poker. Those that are exempt because they are deemed to be more about skill are cribbage, chess, dominoes and even, in some cases, spot-the-ball competitions."


http://news.independent.co.uk/uk/legal/article1169712.ece

DinoHunter (still no nVidia compo voucher!), CPU/GPU Benchmark, DarkFish Encryption DLL, War MMOG (WIP), 3D Model Viewer
Hobgoblin Lord
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Posted: 28th Jul 2007 18:30
Quote: "You may be able to get around gambling laws by making games for money that require "no random chance" to win only skill, just an idea if you still want to make money "


Yes you could do this, there are texas holdem tournaments everywhere right now. You pay an entry fee and winners are given a prize, no gambling involved everyone pays the same fee to enter and has the same chance to win, skill not cash in hand matter.

Jeku
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Posted: 28th Jul 2007 23:18
Actually that's a pretty good workaround, GatorHex

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