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Geek Culture / DB or DBPro?

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Keo C
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Posted: 12th Aug 2007 01:43 Edited at: 12th Aug 2007 01:45
I am using FPS Creator and I want to make games other than FPS style ones. Should I get DarkBASIC Classic or go Pro? Can someone also list Pros and cons? Any help welcome. ( I hope this doesn't go very off topic)

Uhhhhhh.....I forgot
Lucifer
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Posted: 12th Aug 2007 01:59 Edited at: 12th Aug 2007 02:00
get darkbasic pro, stay far far away from buying dbc.. http://darkbasicpro.thegamecreators.com/?f=compare


oh praise the lord, praise furry jesus
Code Dragon
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Posted: 12th Aug 2007 02:35
Remember this: Pro pwns


Dragonware Games - Free Game Downloads
tha_rami
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Posted: 12th Aug 2007 02:42
Remember this:

Never trust on others. Try them yourself, go Google. Personally, I never liked Pro. I have it (birthday), but I nearly never touch it - DBC I bought myself, and I don't seem to miss out on anything at all, if you ask me. DBC Projects cán outbeat the quality of Pro projects.

However, saying not to trust other, I recommend you just get the demos and try some tutorials. Get the additional IDE for Classic (DarkEdit), or try some things with Pro. Just see what works better for you (and go Google).

The Nerd
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Posted: 12th Aug 2007 02:50 Edited at: 12th Aug 2007 02:54
If you really want to get into programming you should just go ahead and buy DBPro. When I started programming I started out buying DBC, and a few months later I ended up buying DBPro anyway.

One of the obvious reaons you should go with DBPro in my oppinion is not just because it is far more updated what concerns DirectX, but also that you will find many more third party plugin solutions if you should ever need that. And DBPro is still supported by TGC and has updates coming out from time to time. And you'll also find that stuff exported from programs like 3D World studio and so forth is generally better supported in DBPro(from my own experience, anyway).

And then of course there's always the point of that you will have a wider selection of advanced features in the future if you should ever find yourself getting into the advanced part.

But there's always the personal preference of course. But as it is right now, I myself wouldn't see any point in buying DBC when there is DBPro, even if DBC is cheaper.

And as far as DBC being easier to learn than DBPro? Not true at all, even though I've seen people state this around on the forum from time to time.

Jrock
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Posted: 12th Aug 2007 02:54
And I'm not sure if it makes a huge difference, but DBC is interpretated while DBpro is compilied to assembly.


Practice makes perfect. But if nobody is perfect, why practice?
Agent Dink
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Posted: 12th Aug 2007 02:57
Quote: "DBC Projects cán outbeat the quality of Pro projects."


However, if you put the same person behind DBP with the same level of knowledge about DBP, the chances are greater that the DBP project would end up being better, considering it has more features and it runs faster.



Keo C
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Posted: 12th Aug 2007 03:19 Edited at: 12th Aug 2007 03:25
Thanks for all your help guys. I think DirectX 9 can beat 8.1.
DBC will only support 8.1 not 9. And getting DarkMatter bundled with DBPro is great. (or did I miss that?)
{Edit} I missed that deal like a rifle with a crooked sight Thanks again everyone. Can a mod please lock this?

Uhhhhhh.....I forgot
PowerSoft
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Posted: 12th Aug 2007 11:29
DarkBASIC Classic is no longer supported by TGC, updates and plugins aren't coming out for it anymore.

DBPro, however, is growing by the day with official & unofficial, commercial & freeware third-party DLL's,


Go Pro!

The Innuendo's, 4 Piece Indie Rock Band
http://theinnuendos.tk:::http://myspace.com/theinnuendosrock
Keo C
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Posted: 12th Aug 2007 18:41
Thanks just so I can let a mod lock this I am going to buy DBPro.

Uhhhhhh.....I forgot
RUCCUS
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Posted: 12th Aug 2007 18:46 Edited at: 12th Aug 2007 18:47
Quote: "DBC Projects cán outbeat the quality of Pro projects."


That doesnt make sense. DBP has everything DBC has (minus a few useless, counter-intuitive commands), better direct x support, a junk load of new commands, a much better IDE, is still being upgraded, has a few plugins for it that wont work with DBC IIRC, produces smaller program sizes due to the changing of how dlls are handled, not to mention all of the DBC tutorials apply to DBP, however nearly none of the DBP tutorials apply to DBC, due to the new commands, the list goes on... Its like saying someone could see farther with glasses than someone with binoculars.


Digital Awakening
AGK Developer
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Posted: 12th Aug 2007 21:40
DBP is far superior in speed and that alone should be enough to buy it. Just don't use the standard IDE, I use Code Surge myself. Remeber, FPScreator is made in DBP and if you want to make anything of the same quality you need DBP.

[center]
Game development made simple!
Keo C
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Posted: 12th Aug 2007 21:49 Edited at: 12th Aug 2007 21:51
Yes I am going to buy DBPro thanks for all your advice.
I hope newbies and people buying a version of DB or DBpro can benefit from this thread.

Uhhhhhh.....I forgot
Bizar Guy
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Posted: 13th Aug 2007 05:54
DBC is really only for people like me who have something to prove to themselves. I think you'll find that everyone who uses DBC these days also owns DBpro.

Zombie 20
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Posted: 13th Aug 2007 13:25
Bizar Guy- Well said..both are well made products, but as many have stated before me..you can squeeze a lot of production value out of classic. I want to do that before truly moving onto pro althouh it does look more and more tasty each day.

Fallout
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Posted: 13th Aug 2007 13:37
DBP - no contest imo. The only real reason not to move to DBP was it's stability, but now it's about as stable as DBC, so there's no reason to go DBC in my opinion. DBP supports the vast majority of DBC features, but is also faster and more feature rich.


Seppuku Arts
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Posted: 13th Aug 2007 13:44
I think DBC has its sentimental value (for those who originally started using) and it runs on slower machines. DBP I think wins in terms of features, power etc. But I guess like Bizar said, it's something to prove to himself - making a top notch game is probably a is a different kind of challenge in DBC than DBP and I think those who still use DBC are doing a cracking job with it.

But out of the two, I'd recommend DBP because there's so so so much more you can do with it, especially with plugins and shaders.

Hakuna Matata
Damokles
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Posted: 13th Aug 2007 18:27
I own DBC, so I don't buy something else, because I can already do what I want with it.
But if I didn't own anything, I would say DBP

- Mind the gap -
Chris K
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Posted: 13th Aug 2007 22:16
Quote: "DBC Projects cán outbeat the quality of Pro projects."


Oh purleaaaase.

Call me when you get Fresnel water running mkay?

-= Out here in the fields, I fight for my meals =-
GatorHex
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Posted: 13th Aug 2007 22:27
Pro only, you want you game compiled don't you? no brainer!

DinoHunter (still no nVidia compo voucher!), CPU/GPU Benchmark, DarkFish Encryption DLL, War MMOG (WIP), 3D Model Viewer
Insert Name Here
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Posted: 13th Aug 2007 23:21
Quote: " I think you'll find that everyone who uses DBC these days also owns DBpro."

I think you'll find your wrong.
-INH (A DB user without DBPro)

(N-1)/n*100<n2/n-n/2+n/4*2+100
Bizar Guy
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Posted: 14th Aug 2007 00:12
Quote: "Oh purleaaaase."

I think he means that because some developers are more determined with DBC, their projects often look better than the average DBpro project. Take a look at Soul Hunter. Of course, there are so few DBC projects to look at these days, that people completely underestimate it. It really is not that hard to achieve cool effects without shade rs.

Like Agent Dink said, a good programmer in DBC could do far more in DBpro.

And why are you responding to a post so close to the beginning of the thread?

Quote: "Pro only, you want you game compiled don't you? no brainer!"

What? DBC compiles faster than DBpro...

Quote: "I think you'll find your wrong.
-INH (A DB user without DBPro)"

Sorry, I was referring to DBC projects in the WIP area. As far as I know, there are only 3 or 4 of those right now.


Anyways, of course DBpro is better. Of course it expands your ability to make games. Some people just like to put limitations on themselves and see how far they can push them. And DBC is easier for beginners, not because of anything code wise, but DBC comes with some killer examples that are easy to learn from. The sliding collision demo in DBC is basically Platforming 101.

Digital Awakening
AGK Developer
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Posted: 14th Aug 2007 00:39
Bizar:
DBC doesn't compile the code, it's an interpreter. It's faster to run the code because it doesn't have to compile but it will be slower because it has to interpret the code while the program is running.

[center]
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indi
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Posted: 14th Aug 2007 01:57
however with todays computers, DBC is blistering fast, you have to slow it down!

tha_rami
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Posted: 14th Aug 2007 02:06
Quote: "I think he means that because some developers are more determined with DBC, their projects often look better than the average DBpro project. Take a look at Soul Hunter. Of course, there are so few DBC projects to look at these days, that people completely underestimate it. It really is not that hard to achieve cool effects without shade rs."


At least someone gets me, lol. I think I must have misphrased it. Actually, I'm quite sure seeing the reactions. And yup, people underestimate it. I guess a lot of people here got into community with DBP only. They base judgement on other peoples rants - not saying anyone here does, BTW.

DBC can't do cool effects? I name EvoChron: Renegades, Soul Hunter - with Geisha House, Pirates of Port Royale and Seadome the only things I'm actively following.

GatorHex
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Posted: 14th Aug 2007 02:20
Quote: "I guess a lot of people here got into community with DBP only."


I started on DB (wasn't called classic back then)

As soon as i saw the network features on pro and it's other stuff i knew there was no point getting a the network upgrade for DB.

Now with hindsite the standard DBP network commands are suxorz but we all live and learn

DinoHunter (still no nVidia compo voucher!), CPU/GPU Benchmark, DarkFish Encryption DLL, War MMOG (WIP), 3D Model Viewer
PowerSoft
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Posted: 14th Aug 2007 11:17
Started with DB and then moved onto DBPro, never looked back, but that doesn't mean DB was crap, just meant that I wasn't good enough to use it to its full potential. My 'burst' in 'Da Codez' seemed to rise greatly with DBPro (I can now make Pong...), but that is more coincidence I believe than anything to do with DBPro.

That said, however, it could have been the IDE that encouraged my skills,

The Innuendo's, 4 Piece Indie Rock Band
http://theinnuendos.tk:::http://myspace.com/theinnuendosrock
Bizar Guy
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Posted: 14th Aug 2007 23:32
Quote: "DBC can't do cool effects? I name EvoChron: Renegades, Soul Hunter - with Geisha House, Pirates of Port Royale and Seadome the only things I'm actively following."


You don't follow me?

Chris K
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Posted: 15th Aug 2007 00:23
Quote: "DBC can't do cool effects? I name EvoChron: Renegades, Soul Hunter - with Geisha House, Pirates of Port Royale and Seadome the only things I'm actively following."


By my definition, no, DBC cannot do cool effects. If your definition of cool effects is seven years out of date, then I guess it can.

I believe what I said was that DBC can't do Fresnel Water, I would love to see you prove me wrong on that though...

-= Out here in the fields, I fight for my meals =-
Bizar Guy
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Posted: 15th Aug 2007 00:40
@Chris K,
Your definition of a cool effect is technical. We're talking visual.

You seem to be saying good looking effects in DBC is impossible, which is totaly wrong. You should be more specific, because the way you say it makes you sound completely arrogent.

And you should look though the soul hunter thread. zzz has produced a lot of technicaly impressive things, baced off of DBC's limitations... Heck, he may end up doing something akin to Frensel water in DBC before he's finished...

Chris K
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Posted: 15th Aug 2007 01:04
Quote: "Your definition of a cool effect is technical. We're talking visual."


...? I'm talking visual too, that's what an effect is. The truth is that per pixel lighting, fresnel water, parallax mapping and HDR are all more beautiful effects than anything that can be done in DBC.

I really don't understand how anyone can object to that...

Quote: "You should be more specific, because the way you say it makes you sound completely arrogent."


Why would you say that? I'm not arrogant. What have I done to suddenly be insulted??

It's stupid to suggest to people that they should choose DBC over DBPro, there's simply absolutely no reason.

-= Out here in the fields, I fight for my meals =-
Bizar Guy
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Posted: 15th Aug 2007 02:26
@ Chris K,


Ah, I see now. The misunderstanding here is simple. Imagine you give one person a choice between a set of oil paints and psp. Most everyone would pick psp because creating amazing pictures is far easier. Yet someone who uses oil paints works far harder and has a greater knowledge of art to produce something better than the person with psp did.

There are obvious differences of course, but DBC vs DBpro is similar. The main difference is the psp and oil paints are different mediums, while as the two languages are the same one. But the idea is the same. Say I want to use DBC to prove I'm a really good artist. This works because I'm limited and have to be intuitive in how I create my games look.

Simply, I can make something more visually stunning in DBC than most people will be able to in DBpro x10 if I put all my art sense and ability into it. I've already laid out on paper how to make all sorts of stunning visual effect in DBC that in some cases will look better than their shad er counterparts. Art is what I do, and I've gotten pretty good at figuring out what it interesting to look at.

On the topic of water, I figured out a way to make a fascinating water effect that looks like an abstract version of what it's reflecting... It's a ton of work to produce, but in the end should look more interesting than fresnel water. Really, fresnel water is just one way of making water. And for most visual aspects of anything, color can turn a butt ugly block shooting game into a block shooting game that's actually fun to look at.


The reason you come off as arrogant is that you seem to be saying the tool is more important than the one using it.

btw, look at the thread carefully. Not one person has suggested DBC over DBpro to anyone who is choosing between them. Even Rami just said to try both demos and pick for themselves, which is perfectly good advice.



Damn, now I'm all riled up. I'm going to have to do my next project in DBC too (actually, it sort of makes sense seeing as the project is called Old School).

Chris K
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Posted: 15th Aug 2007 03:00
But, surely the way a creative process should work is:

- This is what I want to create
- How can I create it?

Not...

- This is what I am creating something with
- What can I create with it?

That's how I go about things anyway. I started learning C++ when I had an idea that couldn't be done in DBPro, and I started DS homebrew when I had a game idea that needed a touch screen.

I don't see any benefit in deliberately limiting the range of games you can create.

I don't understand, therefore, your decision to start a new game ("Old School") in DBC when you have DBPro...

Ok so it's some kind of retro game that DBC can handle, say your happily making a Contro style game.... what if you then have an idea for the final scene where the game world starts breaking down into a million pieces that start falling away into wormholes as you fight. Suddenly you can't put that scene in because DBC can't push enough sprites on screen at a time.

-= Out here in the fields, I fight for my meals =-
Phaelax
DBPro Master
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Posted: 15th Aug 2007 05:54
Quote: "What? DBC compiles faster than DBpro..."

Not in my experience.


DBC is no longer supported, DBP is. Pro also has a load of usefull plugins and supports features you'll never have in DBC. Pro also runs faster....much faster. (especially with 2D) Anything DBC can do, Pro can do and more. There's really absolutely no reason to get Classic at this point over Pro.

I think most of us who have classic most likely bought it way before Pro was released. And for the guy who said classic is easier to learn, I'd say they're the same but Pro is definately easier to write code with for those who are already familiar with programming.


Bizar Guy
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Posted: 15th Aug 2007 21:43
@Phaelax, I agree with you, and seeing as I have been told DBC doesn't actually compile, DBpro of course compiles faster. DBC just happens to have a good set of examples whereas DBpro doesn't (or didn't when I got it). That's why I said it's easier to learn for beginners... It has absolutely nothing to do with the language itself.

@Chris K, you're absolutely right. The idea is always more important than the tool. And that's where the misunderstanding comes in. For some of us the idea is to prove that people can push what they have so much further than they do. To me coding a game in DBC rather than DBpro is like saying if I can do this in DBC, then I need to do even better in DBpro.

It's determination. I actively use both languages, and it's ridiculously easy to make good graphics in DBpro. It actually makes me wonder why more DBpro projects aren't that attractive. It's actually too easy for me. Right now I want to push myself to a limit, and at the moment I'm not good enough to push the limits of DBpro in any real way. DBC though is like a puzzle, and I love puzzles. It's a real challenge to figure out how to do things in it that pro could do easily. I like that kind of stuff, and so do some other people. That's where my determination comes from, and from what I can tell, that's why I'm actually completing projects right now.

So in the end, determination is the motivator I use, and it keeps me from dumping projects left and right like most people here do.

And Old School is a project I was working on a while ago. A number of people said it was the best platformer in any DB (I doubt it was, but they thought so), even though it was just a playground demo. Now I'm just motivated to do a full game of it. It was never Old School in any way, which I thought was rather funny. You could probably find the thread about it if you did a search, or downloaded the demo off of my website... I'm going to restart it in DBC because after this thread it seems like a good idea that I should be making it in DBC.



As a note in general, why are people still arguing that people should get Pro? No one is arguing against this, not even me. I'm just defending why I USE DBC when I have both. I doubt most people would be motivated by the same things I am, SO I RECOMEND THAT PEOPLE GET PRO. Even with motivation, most people wouldn't want to put such a big limitation on themselves.

Dr Manette
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Posted: 15th Aug 2007 23:10
DBpro, mostly for all the reasons mentioned. The main one for me? DBC has crashed many times for me, and has many bugs that aren't in Pro (I assume many people remember a flashing screen from DBC?) The interface was also a huge annoyance, and Pro's windowed interface beats DBC's with a flaming spiked club.

That said, I'm not against DBC entirely. In the past two years, I've only used it once or twice, for a text adventure and for a 2d game. Neither came out as well as they could have because I was using DBC. Probably because I'm more skilled with Pro and more knowledgeable when it comes to overcoming it's short comings, which despite popular belief, Pro does have.

tha_rami
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Posted: 26th Aug 2007 02:33
You don't follow me?

No, I don't follow you. I do follow Dream though. Awesome project and my humblest apologies for not mentioning your game.

Quote: "per pixel lighting"

I thought EvoChron: Renegades did that. Not certain, though.

Quote: "DBC is no longer supported, DBP is."

Shame, if you ask me. I still prefer DBC over DBP. I can do anything I'd want with DBC - but then again, my shots aren't so high and for the only big project I'm doing, I'm considering switching to Irrlicht.

Quote: "- This is what I am creating something with
- What can I create with it?"


I think creativity is using the tools you use to create the thing that best matches your imagination. No programming language (up till now, at least) can capture your imagination fully, so in the end with every language you use you're asking 'What can I can create with it?'. You're always stuck with what can I do with this (or another) language.

Quote: "
It's determination. I actively use both languages, and it's ridiculously easy to make good graphics in DBpro (Not for me - Rami). It actually makes me wonder why more DBpro projects aren't that attractive."

And with that, I think I'll be following your projects for the coming while> Same main motivator for me: Determination.

Zombie 20
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Posted: 26th Aug 2007 11:02
DBC for zombie!!!

Pincho Paxton
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Posted: 26th Aug 2007 14:30
I like DB Classic better, because I can't understand why my DB Classic code does not work in DB Pro. All I want to do is load some Wavs, and they will not load in DB Pro, but they load in DB Classic.

vorconan
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Posted: 26th Aug 2007 14:46
I thought both programs were just basically the same but with DBPro having more low-level access features and directx 9. I would say more people have DX9 than DX8 now, and as has been already said, DBP is constantly getting new awesome plugins and updates.



GatorHex
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Posted: 26th Aug 2007 15:35
Quote: "I can't understand why my DB Classic code does not work in DB Pro"


When i converted my graphics looked realy bad because there was no auto lighting setup in DBP

If we ever get DBPX (DBP 10) Lee warned it would be same kind of jump as all the graphics routines are re-written.

DinoHunter (still no nVidia compo voucher!), CPU/GPU Benchmark, DarkFish Encryption DLL, War MMOG (WIP), 3D Model Viewer
Keo C
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Posted: 26th Aug 2007 19:07 Edited at: 26th Aug 2007 19:09
I think than DBP would be faster because it goes to machine code and not assembly code.
{Edit} I'm getting a better GPU so I can play Bioshock blah blah blah
and Dbpro would use all of the shaders and stuff too.

Uhhhhhhh.... I forgot
Virtual X
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Posted: 26th Aug 2007 22:49 Edited at: 26th Aug 2007 22:52
forget db/db pro altogether, go for TrueVision3D LOL

nah seriously, DB PRO is pretty cool, this community is alot better than most of the other ones, despite the lack of DB updates, TGC still update their software alot more frequently than any other!
Keo C
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Posted: 27th Aug 2007 00:55
Quote: "go for TrueVision3D"

I want DBP because of it's plain english commands.

Uhhhhhhh.... I forgot
Zombie 20
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Posted: 27th Aug 2007 04:10
I love everything about the language, it is a wonderful tool to create media quickly as well as offer a challenge, once pasing the initial learning curve though, I've heard the only thing left is what you can imagine.

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