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Geek Culture / Why nobody simply cares about you

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Megaton Cat
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Posted: 29th Oct 2007 07:31 Edited at: 29th Oct 2007 09:22
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[Mod Edit: JessT]
Warning: Strong language
[/Edit]

Inside the Monkeysphere

Ok, now this has been on my mind for a long time. And the only people who might wanna discuss it would be the geeks and nerds here, as sad as that sounds. "Now Roman! Enough with this monkeysphere sh*t! Go out more!" as my friends and co-workers always say. But I feel I wanted to make sure I'm not going crazy.


I read this article a few years back...I've re-read it several times on various occasions here and there. I'm going to post this blue highlighted link thingy, and you're gonna read it, because the rest of the thread ain't gonna make any sense if you don't. I know some of you hate reading words that aren't part of code. Funny thing is, I keep coming back to this article. It just seems to make so much sense in my life, and I seem to be the only one who notices it. Many people who have read it simply mumble “Funny article” or “Interesting”. No one ever goes “Holy crap! This explains so much!”

Here is a quick summary of the article in my own monkey-like words:
The article actually backs a theory by the name of Dunbar’s number. This is a theoretical number (aprox 150) that represents the amount of people you can know on a personal level, while still somewhat caring. Everyone has several layers of “monkeyspheres”, which fits right into your daily life when you think about it. There are you closest people…(family, girlfriend, etc), then people you choose to hang out with (close friends, etc), then people you HAVE to see (classmates, co-workers) then people you just happen to know through other people, and the list goes on. There are various friends you feel different levels of comfort with. There are people you see because you want to, people you see because you have to, and people you talk to because no one else happens to be available.

Anyway, I want you guys to tell me what you think of this whole theory. In your opinion, is it really the reason many people are having a hard time in life? Anyway, it’s 1:30am and I am getting tired.

edit:
Should probably place a disclaimer, the article contains strong language, so if you're young and...oh forget that. Mods, you didn't see anything.

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DrewG
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Posted: 29th Oct 2007 07:37
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True. I agree that brain size (no offenses) does deal with who we associate with in school clubs and friend clicks at the schools we attend. So the brain that maybe smaller, may have issues with life, then those who have larger brains who do more associations with other people. I hope I'm hitting the point, it's sorta late here too...

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Zaibatsu
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Posted: 29th Oct 2007 07:53
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sounds like an interesting theory, but I can't be bothered to read the whole article at the moment, I've been up for close to 36 hours and feel like I might fall asleep while typing this.

"I admire its purity, a survivor, unclouded by conscience, remorse, or delusions of morality"

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Jess T
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Posted: 29th Oct 2007 09:24
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It's true - but it's not going to stop me thinking about life the way I already do.

Oh, and, Yes. I did see it.

And to help stop this from cascading into another of 'those' threads, please do not talk about the politics, or religion that it mentions.

Personally, I love that guy's writing... JDaTE is fantastic! (I recommend everyone read it... Now.)

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Hobgoblin Lord
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Posted: 29th Oct 2007 10:00
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I would tell you Aiki, but you are outside my last sphere Really though the article made me think of a few things differently (for a moment at least).

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Wiggett
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Posted: 29th Oct 2007 10:24
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hahah an interesting article indeed!

I must have a fluctuating brain size (explains the headaches) because I swing from hating random groups to feeling compassion for those around the world, in the jedi-empathy kind of way.

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tha_rami
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Posted: 29th Oct 2007 12:11
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Hmm... is it bad that I associate with everyone and feel at least 'okay' with anyone?

Let's just say I disagree, and that I feel that although this monkeysphere might exist, you can care about people outside it. And yes, I have the feeling that teachers have an outside life daily and I happily discuss it with them. When I sit in the train, I go and imagine what every single person I see outside is doing and why. I care a little, sometimes I wish I could help them with what they are doing. You can easily care about people outside your sphere.

A very interesting read nevertheless.


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Jonny_S
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Posted: 29th Oct 2007 13:43
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Quote: "Second, UNDERSTAND that there are no Supermonkeys. Just monkeys. "

Sorry, thats a total lie...
Apart from that its a interesting read, but makes me feel stupid because my monkeysphere just barely expands to my immediate family .

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TKF15H
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Posted: 29th Oct 2007 19:11
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Quote: "Funny thing is, I keep coming back to this article. It just seems to make so much sense in my life, and I seem to be the only one who notices it. Many people who have read it simply mumble “Funny article” or “Interesting”. No one ever goes “Holy crap! This explains so much!”"


I don't see what's so enlightening about that article. At first, the monkeyness was amusing, but after it became a bore I found it harder to read on, because it's just stating the obvious: People care more about those closer to them.
The theory is also somewhat flawed. He calls us monkeys for generalizing, treating those outside our monkeyspheres as soulless robots, while the theory itself makes a few generalizations throughout.

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Benjamin
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Posted: 29th Oct 2007 19:43 Edited at: 29th Oct 2007 20:42
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I'm with TKF15H, it does state the obvious that people care more about those closer to them. Whether they care at all for the welfare of people they don't know, however, is subjective. Though, I don't doubt that there are a lot of people in the world like that, possibly in the majority.

Interesting read nonetheless, though the author doesn't seem like a very nice person.

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Binary Agents
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Posted: 30th Oct 2007 03:18
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Oh dear. I think someone wanted a rant about lots of random things, stuck in some humour and then found a loose way to tie them together. I am afraid I don't agree with a lot of what was written. It may be true for the author and many other people, but its not true for everyone. Its a sweeping generalisation. For example, I have a fruit bowl. It is currently filled with green fruit. Therefore, all fruit is green. Many people will also have a fruit bowl full of green fruit but just because it fits for many, doesn't mean its correct. I seriously recommend you don't take it too seriously or try to see too much 'deep thought' in it.

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Megaton Cat
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Posted: 30th Oct 2007 05:25 Edited at: 30th Oct 2007 05:42
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Quote: "it's just stating the obvious: People care more about those closer to them."


That's just the basic simplified idea of what the ultimate message is. What the article is stating is how people get to where they are in your monkeysphere, and how to attempt to control your monkeyshpere.

I dunno how many of you have read Dale Carnegie's classic "How to Win Friends and Influence People". It's basically a book that solidifys the concept of the Monkeysphere. It's all about how to manage your monkeysphere, without actually using the word "monkeysphere" once. It’s more intended for business people, but it’s a great read nonetheless.

I guess I can understand how a lot of people may think the whole monkeysphere thing isn’t really that big, because maybe it’s a concept that doesn’t hit everyone. The reason I support it is because it’s shown it’s uses to me in the battlefield. All that matters is that it’s helped me personally to live a happier life, and it’s definitely something I’ll keep learning about. I mean it’s a huge reason I was able to achieve a lot of goals I set for myself this year…just through the simple method of communicating with people. Whether it’s marinating a relationship, getting job connections, or just making new friends where you need them.
To the people who say: “Well this theory is silly because it doesn’t explain why I still care about people I don’t know”

My view on it: (Which happens to be a very common view)
You care about people you don’t know not for them, but for you. A huge reason people do things like charity work is to make themselves feel better. That’s pretty well known.

Quote: "I care a little, sometimes I wish I could help them with what they are doing. You can easily care about people outside your sphere."


There’s the problem. You see in the paper a large group of homeless in India stranded because their place was destroyed by a natural disaster. Your emotional strings will tug to at least feel bad for him, because your subconscious mind does not want to feel like a dick for not doing so. The thought of your close friend dying will be on your mind for weeks, months, years. The homeless guys…how long will it be before you forget? You will have no trouble returning to fun activities right after that. You can care yes…but your brain will literally limit how much you will care. Not because you are a bad person, but because there is no data in your circuitry to show any emotional attachment to whoever you just read about in the paper. Why do you think people feel worse than anything when they break up in a long-term relationship? Because the brain is overloaded with attachment to that special person, and has more trouble letting go the more it has built up inside.

Anyway, all of this is just my opinion. Please note that I’m not a psychologist.

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DrewG
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Posted: 30th Oct 2007 05:31
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I've taken Psychology.

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tha_rami
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Posted: 30th Oct 2007 05:46
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Quote: "My view on it: (Which happens to be a very common view)
You care about people you don’t know not for them, but for you. A huge reason people do things like charity work is to make themselves feel better. That’s pretty well known."

I disagree wholeheartedly and a friend of mine thinks the same way as you do. I give money to people on the streets and although it does make me feel better, my main priority is to help out that man or woman sitting there. I've never thought 'lets help that guy, it'll make me feel better'.

The rest of your post seems to support the theory quite solidly.


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Megaton Cat
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Posted: 30th Oct 2007 05:53 Edited at: 30th Oct 2007 06:03
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I don't believe so, but it's natural for us to disagree.

You're giving the homeless guy, say, 50 cents. You know that 50 cents is not going to get that man what he needs to live a proper life. A job, a shelter, basic necessities. You're walking away, and you know that guy is going to stay the way he is. Sure, he may get money from other people. He might then eventually get enough money to buy food at some point. Your emotional side is triggered by the man's ragged and desperate look, and you feel sadness and guilt from the chemical reaction. You know you want to do something to help that man.

But that man is not close enough to your monkeysphere core for you to come over, help him up, help him get settled in a job, find him an apartment, and get him educated.

To make yourself feel better you drop some money, and walk away.

As I said, disagreeing with me is completely normal...many people think differently.

Quote: "my main priority is to help out that man or woman sitting there"


Teach a man to fish...well, you know how the rest of that goes.
Just like Slappy and other other monkeys from David Wong's article, you will never be able to sincerely care for the homeless guy, because there are a lot of homeless guys. Are you going to give money to every one of them? Self denial isn't something you have to be mentally ill to have. People will go to great lengths to convince themselves they're doing the right thing.

Please don't get me wrong. I'm not saying will all of this that one should stop "caring" for fellow man or stop giving money to the needy. I just don't want to kid myself.

Jess T: Having been around long enough, I'll be able to see "one of those" debates coming from several light years away, so don't worry.

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tha_rami
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Posted: 30th Oct 2007 06:16 Edited at: 30th Oct 2007 06:20
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With the standard of poverty in the Netherlands being like it is, my occassional €5 drop won't hurt the man - the homeless guy will be taken care of and is offered shelter free of charge. I'm just helping him having a good day because I've got the power and the resources to do so. I know he'll be able to buy himself a good meal at some snackbar and have a nice day. He deserves it, as the only thing that got him there on the street was a sum of coincidences and events that would've put me in his place would I've been going through them. I talk with him after I give him the money. Why he's standing there, not finding a job. He explains it and it is a horrible stacking of problems and legalities.

I can't help all of them because I don't have the resources to do so. I find myself at an impasse more than often because there are two people and I need to split it, which makes me feel greedy because I can easily double it. I usually end up doubling it and screwing my own lunch.

I nod, say goodbye and wish him a pleasant meal. He smiles and says he'll buy himself a bag of cheap chips and a bottle of supermarket Coke.

I have 6 persons that are really inside my sphere. Me and my girlfriend are at the exact center. My direct family (mum, dad, brother, sister) is around it. Outside that, everyone, including the rest of the family, is a human being. I don't know how I got to think that way or why. I can feel extremely hurt for someone completely unknown dying - it's absurd. I don't know what caused it, but I think it has something to do with placing myself into someone elses shoes.

I read the 'suicide article' on the same website. That one was rather good. I liked the way he portrayed all of that.

Let's keep "one of those discussions" coming, eh? I like them. And yeah, it seems naturally for us to disagree, lol. I think we'd be good friends in real life.


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Megaton Cat
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Posted: 30th Oct 2007 06:34 Edited at: 30th Oct 2007 06:40
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Quote: "the only thing that got him there on the street was a sum of coincidences and events"


Maybe it's a geographical difference, but a survey taken here of Toronto homeless has shown that a majority percentage choose to be homeless because they do not want to work for a living. I don't have the newspaper article and statistics, but can dig it up somewhere if you wish to challenge it.

And we'd be pretty good homies, yes. Maybe some people you weren't meant to argue with, but to join up with.

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Aralox
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Posted: 30th Oct 2007 09:04
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Thats incredible, i love it.


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aluseus GOD
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Posted: 31st Oct 2007 06:00
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nobody simply cares about me because they complexly care about me.

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Peter H
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Posted: 31st Oct 2007 13:35 Edited at: 31st Oct 2007 13:37
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Quote: "You see in the paper a large group of homeless in India stranded because their place was destroyed by a natural disaster. Your emotional strings will tug to at least feel bad for him, because your subconscious mind does not want to feel like a dick for not doing so. The thought of your close friend dying will be on your mind for weeks, months, years. The homeless guys…how long will it be before you forget? You will have no trouble returning to fun activities right after that. You can care yes…but your brain will literally limit how much you will care."

I agree, we tend to care only about people we see in the news or newspaper or on the intrawebz for a short time... i wish i could care longer for other people like that but i can't. It's not natural for the human body to sustain intense emotions over a long period of time (if you have a close friend die, like it or not you will get over it in a year or two... everytime you think of them it will make you sad but you won't think of them that often. That's not a bad thing, you don't want to wallow in grief for your entire life.)

anyway, the whole point of this post coming up....
I have been to India, and i have been in homeless slums... and actually spent most of the month i was there in homeless slums/remote villages(normally you don't have to feel sorry for remote villages since they are functioning fine just without technology... but there was a drought when i was there and many farmers were committing suicide). That is much different than seeing some in the newspaper.

But, i don't constantly sit around and think about helping these people... so like a picture in the newspaper i've stopped caring...
however, like a close friend that has died i do care about them every time i am reminded of them.

so to make a long story short i think all the instant communication our world has today (such as the internet, international phones, newspaper) has created situations where we know about people that we don't know. And it is nearly impossible (maybe completely impossible) to really care about someone like that.

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Megaton Cat
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Posted: 1st Nov 2007 04:03
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That's an interesting point Peter. Mass communication like the intarweb has "connected" us to others, but only superficially. I mean think way back, where most people where born, raised, and eventually died in the same village. These people had only their small community to care about, rarely going any further. We now hooked up the whole globe, and we're getting fragmented glimps of other places and other human suffering, but it's just not the same and living and breathing it.

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Fallout
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Posted: 1st Nov 2007 17:55
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I thought it was quite a good article. It's true, the process of humanizing someone or something makes it harder to screw them over. It's easier to eat roast pork when you haven't seen the pig squealing in terror in the last few minutes of its life, for example. You are screwing that pig over when you eat it. You're EATING it. But because it wasn't your pet, it's ok.

I guess the ultimate message is, before you perform an action that may screw someone over, realise they're potentially the same as your mum, or your best friend. It could be the only difference is you don't know them, and they don't know you. Why should that acting of knowing/experiencing make you treat them differently?

The only thing I think it fails to address is the theory that I believe that every action is ultimately selfish. There is no selfless act. For example - people give gifts. Selfless? Of course not. People don't give gifts unless they enjoy giving. Or, if they dont enjoy giving, it's to prevent the guilt of not giving (say forgetting a birthday). Every act we do is ultimately selfish on some deep down level.

So imo, the reason why we treat people in our 'Monkeysphere' well, is because these are the people that may have an impact on our lives. If treating them badly will result in us being treated badly, or feeling guilty, we won't do it. I think the trick is to derive guilt from hurting, and derive pleasure from being kind to, people outside of your 'Monkeysphere'. If everyone was that self aware, the world would be a better place.

Alas, you are all scum.


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Megaton Cat
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Posted: 1st Nov 2007 21:52 Edited at: 1st Nov 2007 22:02
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Quote: "The only thing I think it fails to address is the theory that I believe that every action is ultimately selfish. There is no selfless act. For example - people give gifts. Selfless? Of course not. People don't give gifts unless they enjoy giving. Or, if they dont enjoy giving, it's to prevent the guilt of not giving (say forgetting a birthday). Every act we do is ultimately selfish on some deep down level.
"


That's basically exactly 100% of what I discussed with rami earlier in the thread.

I don't think it's humanly possible to do a 100% selfless act. Even if you leap like a maniac in front of a hail of bullets to protect your best bud, it'd be because you know you'd feel guilty for not doing it, not because you have zero concern for your own safety over another.

Quote: "Alas, you are all scum. "


That's it, I've just bumped you 3.75 levels down on my Monkeysphere. You are hovering right on the verge, just slightly behind Drew G and that guy who keeps emailing me trying to sell viagra.

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David R
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Posted: 1st Nov 2007 22:05 Edited at: 1st Nov 2007 22:06
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Nothing really new to be honest...

Selfishness is not a bad trait, it's what we're designed to do: stay alive. And doing that entails insulating ourselves, so that's exactly what happens.


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Eevil Weevil
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Posted: 3rd Nov 2007 14:46
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Quote: "Hmm... is it bad that I associate with everyone and feel at least 'okay' with anyone?

Let's just say I disagree, and that I feel that although this monkeysphere might exist, you can care about people outside it. And yes, I have the feeling that teachers have an outside life daily and I happily discuss it with them. When I sit in the train, I go and imagine what every single person I see outside is doing and why. I care a little, sometimes I wish I could help them with what they are doing. You can easily care about people outside your sphere.

A very interesting read nevertheless.
"

Yes, but, the rabbit, you gotta remember that we're humans, y'see...

Impossible? Anything is impossible. Of course it's impossible, you just have to believe in it.

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tha_rami
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Posted: 3rd Nov 2007 16:01
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True. People said I am an odd case psychologically anyway. I was the only one wondering why the sun disappeared on one side and reappeared on the other at the age of 5. During which same year I asked someone whether "this object is a twig or something similar?" - which completely made my reputation.

I don't feel guilt for not giving, I don't feel happyness for giving. I give because the man needs money and I'm a tool for him to do so. Sometimes I grow friends with such people, and then it is one of those paradoxal 'selfish' acts (they're selfish because your dopamine goes all crazy if you're being unselfish) - something I still consider unselfish.

I agree though that under heavy emotional strain, one can not do something fully unselfish. Catching a bullet for family or friends is selfish and unselfish at the same time. Unselfishness lays in little things for persons outside a 'monkeysphere'.


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Libervurto
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Posted: 3rd Nov 2007 18:44
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Not sure whether the whole monkey sphere is related to brain size or whether it's just physically impossible to have relationships with more than 150 people, interesting read though

Of course it is obvious that we generalise people we don't know but I think this article gives reasons why and how we do it
Racism was a brilliant example.

"You must be someone's friend to make comments about them." - MySpace lied.
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