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Geek Culture / Why people hate C++

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n008
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Posted: 3rd Jan 2008 15:04
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Why do so many people here bash/hate C++? I really want to know your reasoning.I just don't understand , it is a great language; so why do so many here dislike it? It isn't THAT difficult.

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Roxas
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Posted: 3rd Jan 2008 15:06
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Hate? I dont hate it :/ Its great! I use it for DS homebrew programming..

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n008
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Posted: 3rd Jan 2008 15:14
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Yea, but in a lot of these forums I see people bash it/call it supefluous.

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kaedroho
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Posted: 3rd Jan 2008 15:14
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its too complicated
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n008
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Posted: 3rd Jan 2008 15:17
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Explain. Why is it complicated to you? How?

Is it really just too difficult or are you just not trying?

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Peter H
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Posted: 3rd Jan 2008 15:19
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i don't hate it i like it alot.

One man, one lawnmower, plenty of angry groundhogs.
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Roxas
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Posted: 3rd Jan 2008 15:19
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Actually.. I thinked too like this "I dont need it!", "DB/P Ownz it!" , "Too hard.." but when i tried it i found it easy lang, Yes i said its easy not so easy as basic but still easy and i really need it for DS stuff

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Zotoaster
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Posted: 3rd Jan 2008 15:23
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It's not too complicated.. if anything, it's great for keeping your projects really organised. If it was bad it wouldn't be the industry standard.

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Van B
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Posted: 3rd Jan 2008 15:27
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The bottom line is that C++ coders tend to achieve less, because they have so much more to do with C++ than say, DBPro. I mean most people could knock out a game in the space of a couple of months, but C++ coders take much longer.

The control and accessibility that you get with C++ comes at a very heavy price, the time it would take to learn C++ properly to the stage where creating a game is a hobby again is a lot - as most of us are here making games as a hobby, well DBPro keeps it fun IMO.

I would love to get into DS homebrew, and I have wanted to learn C++ for some time, but right now I'm happy using DBPro.


less is more, but if less is more how you keeping score?
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Zotoaster
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Posted: 3rd Jan 2008 15:29
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@ VanB,

DarkGDK!

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Fallout
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Posted: 3rd Jan 2008 15:33
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What Van said.

C++ is a great language, and a lot more powerful than DBP, but it's a crazy choice over DBP. It's like you need to get to work, and somebody is offering you a Ford Fiesta ready to go, or all the parts to build your own Porsche. Of course the Porsche is better, but who the hell is ever gonna actually finish building it? Just take the Fiesta and actually make it to work before you lose your job.

Of course, with the DarkGDK, you get the best of both worlds. However, it'll still be more prone to bugs due to the complexity of C++.


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Zotoaster
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Posted: 3rd Jan 2008 15:42
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Quote: "complexity of C++."


Dont judge a book by it's appearance :/

I think you will find that most indie games were made in C++, and very few in DarkBasic have actually been finished, let alone sold.

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CattleRustler
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Posted: 3rd Jan 2008 15:47
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n008, did you start this thread because you had no answer to my question in the thread in DGDK forum? I locked that thread since Edits start changing the meaning and context of what was originally said. And by the way, no one over there said anything about hating c++.

My DBP plugins page is now hosted [href]here[/href]
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n008
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Posted: 3rd Jan 2008 15:48
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^Zotoaster is right. :/

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n008
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Posted: 3rd Jan 2008 15:50 Edited at: 3rd Jan 2008 15:51
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Quote: "n008, did you start this thread because you had no answer to my question in the thread in DGDK forum? I locked that thread since Edits start changing the meaning and context of what was originally said. And by the way, no one over there said anything about hatiing C++."


Did you even read my post? lol!

I said comparing C# and VB to C++ is like comparing C to ASM or GM to DB. They aren't even in the same catergories! I make a typo, and left out that part, so I fixed it.

No I didn't make this thread for that reason, I made it because of a lot of people here think that c++ is too complex to be practical at all. Sure, if you are a weekend coder, C++ is impractical, but it does serve its purpose. I didn't want to go offtopic in any more threads.

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David R
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Posted: 3rd Jan 2008 15:59 Edited at: 3rd Jan 2008 16:06
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Quote: "Sure, if you are a weekend coder, C++ is impractical,"

Quote: "I mean most people could knock out a game in the space of a couple of months, but C++ coders take much longer."


Personally, I find that I get more done with C++ than I ever did with DBP. That's not a critique of DBP, C++ just seems to fit the way I think better than BASIC does


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Mr Z
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Posted: 3rd Jan 2008 16:22
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I sort of like C++. I have ever since I started testing it. Plus I like control, so I like it even more because of that.

Darkness, you haunt me. If I give in, I would be an monster beyond imagining. Light, you guide me. Thanks to you, I see past the nothingness. Life, I choose to live in the light.
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Van B
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Posted: 3rd Jan 2008 16:31
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It's not just for hobbyist game makings that I prefer Basic, I'm actually a business system developer, use PureBasic mostly - in a straight race from project inception to completion I'd go head to head with any C++ programmer and leave them for dust . I'm glad I don't use C++, not working alone in my situation, how else could a microchip company get by with just 1 IT dude.

It's not our fault, if you look at the evolution of programming languages, you'll see that the more obtuse languages get ousted, their only saving grace is their required speed, if we don't need the speed then we don't need the complexity. People who think C++ is the be all and end all, need to remember Assembly language, how it had the game development corner of the market covered uptil the end of the 16-bits. Back then C was considered a luxury, PC's got fast enough to cope with just C, C took over from Assembly, C++ took over from C. People might assume that D# or whatever will take over from C++, but who's to say that it won't be a BASIC style language before very long that is being used - given the speed of Basic on modern PC's. Most game designers use C++ based engines, so actual game code is often done in script languages, the bare bones of it is that DBPro coders are probably working more like the pro's than they realize.


less is more, but if less is more how you keeping score?
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Zotoaster
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Posted: 3rd Jan 2008 16:37
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Lets not bring Assembly into this. It's not just the speed (which C++ does undoubtedly have), but it provides so many options for how you set up your program, and gives you flexibility.

You dont have to use classes or templates, but they do cut down work load, and things like these I rarely see in BASIC.

Yes, C++ would take a long time to make anything in, but dont forget that there are probably more libraries for C++ than there are actual programming languages, and these provide things that BASIC languages basically run off.

Also, BASIC was one of the first programming languages. I'd like to point out that C++ took over it, and it wont be the other way round unless there is some serious improvement to it

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Seppuku Arts
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Posted: 3rd Jan 2008 16:53 Edited at: 3rd Jan 2008 16:53
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Who here hates C++? This is the first I've heard anything of the sort here. (Perhaps if you link us to where people have said it?) C++ is good, we often choose not to use it because it doesn't suit us - but it's a fantastic language.

The reason I don't use it very often (just doing a gradual learning process) think, if I used C++ for my projects, I'd be screwed at getting anything done because I've barely got anything done with DBP.

Also, a number of community members like using Dark GDK and develop plugins in C++. Whoever hates C++ are pretty daft because most things are programmed in it (including DBP) and it's an industry standard language.

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David R
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Posted: 3rd Jan 2008 17:00 Edited at: 3rd Jan 2008 17:01
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Quote: "Of course, with the DarkGDK, you get the best of both worlds. However, it'll still be more prone to bugs due to the complexity of C++."


DarkGDK is barely different from most other 3D APIs/wrappers built around DirectX. Personally I can see why GDK is now free, considering you can get what could be considered a superior equivalent (Irrlicht) as free and open source.

EDIT: Unless you consider the best of the DBP world as the bugs :p


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Zotoaster
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Posted: 3rd Jan 2008 17:02
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Quote: "it'll still be more prone to bugs due to the complexity of C++."

I wouldn't call them bugs. If there were infact any bugs, it would be with DGDK, the rest is just about being able to program.

Trust me (and everyone else) when I say that C++ loses its complexity when you actually try using it for a week.

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Pixelator
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Posted: 3rd Jan 2008 17:11
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[rant]
i tried C++ once, cuz i had heard it was a great lang, and you could make DLLs with it. I went through an entire tut and all it has that are useful other like a million ways to store data, were pointers and the cout and cin commands. NO GRAPHICAL FEATURES PEOPLE!!!!!!! THAT IS A REALLY GREAT LANGUAGE
[/rant]

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n008
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Posted: 3rd Jan 2008 17:12 Edited at: 3rd Jan 2008 17:14
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^ Well, yea. You expected BASIC? If you want graphics, you have a mind-bogglingly big choice of APIs:

DirectX
OpenGL
Allegro
SDL

You could write your own, etc.

Quote: "Trust me (and everyone else) when I say that C++ loses its complexity when you actually try using it for a week."


True dat.

I'm not saying "Cpp = BIGGER_THAN_DBPRO" I just got the general feeling that most people here (Not in the GDK forum, obviously ) feel that C++ is too difficult.

Might I also add that the reason C++ is more flexible is because of LESS commands.

List of Cpp commands (C subset of Cpp):


And I can gurantee that I haven't used all of them yet. lol.

Uck, I'd be here all day if i tried to name all of DBPro's commands .

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Zotoaster
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Posted: 3rd Jan 2008 17:13
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Quote: "NO GRAPHICAL FEATURES PEOPLE!!!!!!! "


WHAT DO YOU THINK ALL THE GAMES YOU PLAY ARE MADE WITH?!!!!!!!!!

Lol

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TKF15H
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Posted: 3rd Jan 2008 17:15
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lol, Pixelator... C++ has no graphical features? Looks like you didn't try it out for long enough. If almost every game out there is made in C++, how do you think it can not have graphical features? Just try using C++ again, this time with SDL, OpenGL or DirectX.

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Benjamin
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Posted: 3rd Jan 2008 17:16
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I think there are a couple of reasons people would think developing a game in C++ would take longer compared to DBP. Firstly there is the more complex syntax, which I don't personally think has any bearing on how long it takes to code something. Secondly C++ has no built-in libraries like DBP has, and everyone assumes you have to code everything from scratch because of this.

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n008
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Posted: 3rd Jan 2008 17:17
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True, there are no built-in libraries, but most APIs are considered standard now.

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David R
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Posted: 3rd Jan 2008 17:20 Edited at: 3rd Jan 2008 17:30
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Quote: "List of Cpp commands (C subset of Cpp):"


I didn't think the auto keyword was standard yet? (Isn't that one of the features for 0x?)

EDIT: My mistake, I was thinking of the wrong auto. There's another auto (that auto decides a type based on what it's assigned to) coming with 0x.

EDIT2: But you're missing a few keywords like friend


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Zotoaster
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Posted: 3rd Jan 2008 17:21
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Quote: "has no built-in libraries like DBP has, and everyone assumes you have to code everything from scratch because of this."

Yeah, that's a common misconception that tends to annoy me a bit

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Pixelator
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Posted: 3rd Jan 2008 17:21
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1. KK i am defeated on the C++ thing, mabe i didn't try it long enough.

2. I think that the number of commands in a lang doesn't matter as long as you have the abilities to do sprites, cellular autonoma, and load and use dlls.

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n008
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Posted: 3rd Jan 2008 17:33
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@David: That is the C subset of C++.

Quote: "2. I think that the number of commands in a lang doesn't matter as long as you have the abilities to do sprites, cellular autonoma, and load and use dlls."


True, number doesn't mean much, bet the GENERALITY of it does. And you are missing the point: Cpp is very flexible. Of course you can't load spritresa and such without extension libraries, it wasn't intended to be a game-only language, but is today's standard for that and many other industries.

Besides, if you want an easy 2d, use allegro, it's all you need.

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Tom J
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Posted: 3rd Jan 2008 18:36
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I don't hate C++, in fact im learning it at the moment.
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tha_rami
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Posted: 3rd Jan 2008 18:50
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The opposite reasons of why the C++ coders bash DarkBASIC.


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Virtual X
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Posted: 3rd Jan 2008 22:12 Edited at: 3rd Jan 2008 22:18
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I think what everyone needs to do, is stop whining and create just ONE damn language. We don't need 100's of languages, programs could be developed with one language implementing different methodologies depending on the programming task.

One of my problems is that I just never know what languages to stick with, I would love to stick with ONE language for the rest of my life, because of ego's, competition, greed etc... developers try and beat one another with completely different languages.

I like the way VanB approaches his work projects - use PureBASIC lol, a nice easy language to get things done fast, at the end of the day, I don't mind spending ages designing a program, but I don't particularly want to spend ages writing code.

TGC had a really good thing going with DBPro, I think they have sold out abit with their DarkGDK, nothing wrong with the DB PRO language, but if they added a native GUI library at the beginning, I probably would have used DB PRO for everything windows based.

It's about time in the computing industry that developers, merged OpenGL and DirectX into ONE API, using just ONE language for everything, will make things so much simpler and give most people the chance to actually learn this stuff before we all get too old
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Zotoaster
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Posted: 3rd Jan 2008 22:21 Edited at: 3rd Jan 2008 22:21
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Quote: " I think they have sold out abit with their DarkGDK"

Sold out?! It's put them next to the giants at Microsoft!

Quote: "nothing wrong with the DB PRO language"

Dont get me started
Not only is it quite a slow language, but certain compiler features tend to suck, i.e. no arrays in types, and it's got many bugs.

Quote: "We don't need 100's of languages"

-vs-
Quote: "One of my problems is that I just never know what languages to stick with"


Please, read over what you write

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Green Gandalf
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Posted: 3rd Jan 2008 22:22
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Quote: "It isn't THAT difficult."


Yes it is.

With DBP I could get a 3D scene up and running in 5 minutes from installing the product. With C++ I'm still struggling after several weeks to work out how to use all the classes, inheritance concepts, DX9 functions, etc.

I'm sure C++ will be worth it in the end - but will I have the determination and patience ... ?

Quote: "I think what everyone needs to do, is stop whining and create just ONE damn language."


I think that's what every new programming language designer sets out to do - unfortunately each new language unavoidably reflects the mindset of its creator(s).
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Zotoaster
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Posted: 3rd Jan 2008 22:26
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Quote: "work out how to use all the classes, inheritance concepts"

When I first bought DarkBasic I didn't even know you had to code ¬_¬ My point is that it's just a matter of learning, and once you get used to it it's not that hard to understand.

Quote: "unavoidably reflects the mindset of its creator(s)"

Thus, we need a creator who wants a language that can be used for many things using many techniques.. Oh wait! There is one! Creator of C++!

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Virtual X
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Posted: 3rd Jan 2008 22:27
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I did read it over!

-------------
we don't need hundreds of languages as a result I never know which ones to learn and stick with!
-------------

First of all, there is nothing wrong with the DB PRO language in general, 'make object cube 1,10' is hardly slow. By slow, you mean the actual execution of the program not the DB PRO 'language' itself!

also, DarkGDK does not put them next to the 'giants', the SDK will be tested by many more developers looking for a decent engine, if DarkGDK does not deliver they have shot themselves in the foot - I said this before and I stand by this opinion.
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TKF15H
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Merging things into ONE language doesn't work. Languages are geared towards different ends, ends which may be conflicting. For example, C++ is a system programming language, so by default it supports the most basic of features, and whatever else you need, you have to add (which isn't a problem, there is ready-made code for almost anything out there). DBP is a language designed to be easy for newcomers. It doesn't support the syntax candy that coders are normally used to, such as OOP. This way it's simpler and has a smoother learning curve.

Quote: "I don't particularly want to spend ages writing code."

While you didn't specifically mention C++, I want to say this: the idea that C++ code takes longer to write is only true if you don't know how to write C++ code.
After some years of using C++, I can now finish a project more quickly with C++ than I would in DBP.

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Zotoaster
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Posted: 3rd Jan 2008 22:29 Edited at: 3rd Jan 2008 22:30
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[edit]
Virtual X,

So basically, you can't stick with one language because there are so many others that have better options for the particular task. Makes sense. Now, this annoys you somehow, so you want to be in essense restricted to just one?

Quote: "DarkGDK does not put them next to the 'giants'"

http://www.microsoft.com/express/samples/GameCreators/

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Virtual X
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Posted: 3rd Jan 2008 22:29
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Quote: "God, no! Having no alternatives to choose from is the worst thing that could happen..."


What would be the point of having loads of API's when ONE could do it all, take the strongest design and implement the strongest features into ONE API, there really is no need to have more than ONE!
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n008
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Posted: 3rd Jan 2008 22:31
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Actually, Zotoaster, I would thank the Creators of C a tiny bit more than Bjarne. Although Bjarne invented Classes and OOP basically, it would be as great without C.


@Virtual X: That is what ever language sets out to do, pretty much. C++, IMO, of course , is the only one that comes close. BASIC, unfortunately, will most likely never ber able to do this.

@Green Gandalf: No, C++ is not hard at all. What people get stuck on are, as you said, the extension libraries.

@Windows Killer: Amen, man!

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Virtual X
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Posted: 3rd Jan 2008 22:32 Edited at: 3rd Jan 2008 22:32
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Quote: "So basically, you can't stick with one language because there are so many others that have better options for the particular task. Makes sense. Now, this annoys you somehow, so you want to be in essense restricted to just one?"


Umm... Obviously, Yes!

It's not a restriction if you can use the language for everything!
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Zotoaster
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Posted: 3rd Jan 2008 22:35
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It is a restriction.. I could make two identical programs in DBPro and C++, though for me C++ would genuinelly be easier and more organised, and expandable.

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Virtual X
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Posted: 3rd Jan 2008 22:38 Edited at: 3rd Jan 2008 22:39
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Quote: "
noo8:

@Virtual X: That is what ever language sets out to do, pretty much. C++, IMO, of course , is the only one that comes close. BASIC, unfortunately, will most likely never ber able to do this.
"


A language is a way of entering commands for the computer to carry out, simple as that! A language can be use used for anything if it is implemented to do just that in the first place.

Think about it, ONE programming language, ONE graphics API, ONE sound API, ONE Networking API for EVERYONE to use = more time to learn, less chance of it becoming obsolete, more time to have fun!
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n008
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Posted: 3rd Jan 2008 22:39 Edited at: 3rd Jan 2008 22:40
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What you are missing is that a language can't be made easy to use and flexible at the same time. One could argue that ASM is the best language, because virtually all other languages come from it. So it can do anything. But it is obviously not what you are looking for.

Virtual X, why don't you make this wonder-language, then?

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Jeku
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Posted: 3rd Jan 2008 22:40
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Quote: "What would be the point of having loads of API's when ONE could do it all, take the strongest design and implement the strongest features into ONE API, there really is no need to have more than ONE!"


APIs are used for different problems. If you want to write a CD Burning app, the most efficient API would not be an app geared for DX10 game dev.

Competition creates creativity.

I don't think anyone will argue that DBP is not a quick prototyping language, but it is not powerful enough to be as fast as C++ or assembly. There are limitations. That being said, most indie developers will never be pushing their games past the point of DBP's power, so that's kind of a moot argument.

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Zotoaster
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Alright, think about this hypethetically. The person who would make this language wouldn't be able to make it according to his own design, because it wouldn't suit everyone. If he did a survey, he would end up with a thread like this: half the people prefer BASIC, the other half C++.. what is the obvious solution? I'll let you work that one out yourself.

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Zotoaster
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Joined: 20th Dec 2004
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Posted: 3rd Jan 2008 22:43
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Quote: "That being said, most indie developers will never be pushing their games past the point of DBP's power"

I get that. But the fact is that a game made in C++ with the exact same gfx power of DBP will still be faster.

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