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Geek Culture / 17-month old child murdered for knocking over xbox

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AlanC
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Posted: 7th Feb 2008 03:27 Edited at: 5th Aug 2008 02:06
This happend like almost a week ago. Just plain horrible.

http://www.theinquirer.net/gb/inquirer/news/2008/01/31/man-kills-daughter-she-knocks.

[href]www.retro-gamer.net/[/href]
Zotoaster
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Posted: 7th Feb 2008 03:49 Edited at: 7th Feb 2008 03:51
I remember seeing something almost exactly the same a year or two ago - a guy was playing XBox and his baby kid knocked it over, and he shook it really hard and killed it.. Pretty sad, I know.

[edit]

Wait, seems to be the same incident.

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Mr Tank
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Posted: 7th Feb 2008 03:52
That's nuts. Also horrible are all the idiots replying to that article who are in favour of the death penalty. They should be shot. Well maybe not shot. You get the idea.

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Benjamin
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Posted: 7th Feb 2008 03:56
This guy should be shot.

WarGoat
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Posted: 7th Feb 2008 04:05
That's just stupid, and truly sad. I've heard a story like some years ago: a guy who shook his little baby to death because he was crying to much for him. I mean, they were not even 2 years old...!

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Gil Galvanti
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Posted: 7th Feb 2008 04:12 Edited at: 7th Feb 2008 04:13
Quote: "This guy should be shot."

No, he should be tortured and then shot. Shoot/stab everything that isn't necessary to live (ie: fingers, toes, ears, etc.) and only then, after leaving him suffering for a while do you kill him.


WarGoat
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Posted: 7th Feb 2008 04:17
In my opinion, I think he should have the maximum, or at least the half, years that one can be held in prison with someone that try to see what went wrong with him, and try to solve the problem. Maybe he killed someone, but I don't think he deserve to die for that. Yes it's a crime, and it's not a small one, but we would't be better that some criminals.

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Gil Galvanti
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Posted: 7th Feb 2008 04:20 Edited at: 7th Feb 2008 04:20
Quote: "I don't think he deserve to die for that. Yes it's a crime, and it's not a small one, but we would't be better that some criminals."

I smell a debate coming . It doesn't make you the same as a criminal, because a criminal kills for no reason (or a bad one), and when you are killing a criminal you kill only because he killed and deserves the same.


AndrewT
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Posted: 7th Feb 2008 04:24
Quote: "In my opinion, I think he should have the maximum, or at least the half, years that one can be held in prison with someone that try to see what went wrong with him, and try to solve the problem. Maybe he killed someone, but I don't think he deserve to die for that. Yes it's a crime, and it's not a small one, but we would't be better that some criminals."


TBH, I think that I'd rather die than spend life in prison. I mean, what would you do? Just think about the fact that your future is full of nothing but misery and failure, and that there's no chance that you'll ever live an enjoyable life, eventually leading you to an inevitable life of depression and sadness? Nah, just shoot me and get it over with.
Agent Dink
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Posted: 7th Feb 2008 04:27
This loser absolutely deserves the death penalty. Anyone who can murder an innocent human being, especially a baby or child... ...over a game console... deserves nothing more than death.

WarGoat
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Posted: 7th Feb 2008 04:32 Edited at: 7th Feb 2008 04:36
I understand what you mean, Gil. But for me, it's almost the same. And like you said, a debate seems to come for death penality. I'm against it. I think it does not make sense to kill another man for what he did. Also, in some countrys, the law is: you are guilty until someone proves you are not. If death penality is on this country, maybe we could kill an innocent, because we though he was the murderer. I know it doesn't have anything to do with the kid's stroy, but I need to say my opinion in the debate

Yes, some people deserve to have great punishment for what they did, but not this sort of punishment.

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Benjamin
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Posted: 7th Feb 2008 04:35
Quote: "Anyone who can murder an innocent human being, especially a baby or child... ...over a game console... deserves nothing more than death."

I completely agree. Anyone with such a disrespect for life doesn't deserve to live himself.

AaronG
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Posted: 7th Feb 2008 04:35
Amen. Now, let's all open our Bible's to Matthew chapter 5...

___

No but in all seriousness this is horrible. He deserves the death
penalty.


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WarGoat
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Posted: 7th Feb 2008 04:36
We don't know if we had some handicaps. If he's someone that get on nerves easily, that have a sickness which affects his mind, it change the way we should treat the matter, don't you think?

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Gil Galvanti
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Posted: 7th Feb 2008 04:39
Quote: "I understand what you mean, Gil. But for me, it's almost the same. And like you said, a debate seems to come for death penality. I'm against it. I think it does not make sense to kill another man for what he did. Also, in some countrys, the law is: you are guilty until someone proves you are not. If death penality is on this country, maybe we could kill an innocent, because we though he was the murderer. I know it doesn't have anything to do with the kid's stroy, but I need to say my opinion in the debate

Yes, some people deserve to have great punishment for what they did, but not this sort of punishment."

I do understand the whole idea that you could wrongly convict someone, which is why I think death should be reserved only for those that you can prove without a doubt as guilty, such as this guy .

Quote: "We don't know if we had some handicaps. If he's someone that get on nerves easily, that have a sickness which affects his mind, it change the way we should treat the matter, don't you think?"

No, I don't think it should change the way we treat it. Despite whatever problems he had, the end result is the same, and therefore the punishment should be the same. I don't like the whole "insanity plea" .


jrowe
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Posted: 7th Feb 2008 04:41
My opinion: Just because someone has done something terrible, it doesn't give the state the right to do the same to the criminal. The state must be BETTER than those who convicts, otherwise it has no moral superiority. We shouldn't be punishing those who do wrong for revenge, but solely for the good of society.

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Benjamin
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Posted: 7th Feb 2008 04:42 Edited at: 7th Feb 2008 04:43
Quote: "We don't know if we had some handicaps. If he's someone that get on nerves easily, that have a sickness which affects his mind, it change the way we should treat the matter, don't you think?"

I also agree with this. My other posts were based on the assumption that this guy was a mindless thug, but then we don't know what kind of a person he is.

Quote: "I don't like the whole "insanity plea" "

I don't like the whole "eye for an eye" thing.

Agent Dink
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Posted: 7th Feb 2008 04:46 Edited at: 7th Feb 2008 04:48
Quote: "The state must be BETTER than those who convicts, otherwise it has no moral superiority. We shouldn't be punishing those who do wrong for revenge, but solely for the good of society."


Punishment from the state has nothing to do with revenge. It has everything to do with showing other criminals / future criminals that the laws are to be taken seriously. If we fail to punish individuals we only open the door for more crimes, murders, rapes, etc. What's to stop me from killing someone when I know my punishment if I get caught will be lenient? At least I'll know I have 3 meals a day, a place to sleep, and free living expenses...

Eye for an eye and all that.

EDIT: lol, ben we posted about eye for an eye at roughly the same time

Gil Galvanti
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Posted: 7th Feb 2008 04:50 Edited at: 7th Feb 2008 04:53
Quote: "My opinion: Just because someone has done something terrible, it doesn't give the state the right to do the same to the criminal. The state must be BETTER than those who convicts, otherwise it has no moral superiority. We shouldn't be punishing those who do wrong for revenge, but solely for the good of society.
"

My problem is that I don't see how killing a murderer is making you as bad as the murderer. I don't think this will get a good response, but - I actually think that if someone is definitely guilty of murder not committed in self-defense, accident, gang or drug related, or war, then the killer should be restrained and the closest people to the victim should be able to beat them, even until death, if they choose.

Many people first look at this idea and go, "What? That's inhumane!", but they've never experienced the innocent murder of someone close to them (neither have I, but I can definitely see how I would feel in that position more than most people). If you really stop and think about it and what it would be like and are able to put yourself in the position like I am, for example if someone came into your house and beat, robbed, and ultimately killed your mom/dad/brother/sister/daughter/son for no reason, then I can see myself wanting to beat every square inch of the person that did it.

Of course they could choose not to do anything to them, and if they did, they would just be put in prison forever (no parole).

I deeply sympathize with people who try to attack their family member's murderer in court, and honestly, I would try to do the same, even if all I got was one punch off .

EDIT: Ben and Agent Dink posted while I was posting.


jrowe
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Posted: 7th Feb 2008 04:52
I can see this debate is going to escalate to something larger and harsher if we continue. These sorts of issues run very close to peoples hearts and the thread will eventually be locked. So I think we should just let it go and agree to disagree before a flamewar starts.

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WarGoat
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Posted: 7th Feb 2008 04:55 Edited at: 7th Feb 2008 04:57
Quote: "No, I don't think it should change the way we treat it. Despite whatever problems he had, the end result is the same, and therefore the punishment should be the same. I don't like the whole "insanity plea""


A lots of thing need to be put under consideration in this kind of situation if it is about one's life. Maybe it is not only a "I'm a easy-to-get-on-nerves guy" murder motive. I know this could sound a little crazy, but maybe this child was the child of someone else, who did great damage to the society in general, criminaly speaking or again, in general, and he was just waiting for a pretext to stop him to grow, because he didn't wanted him to become like his father. Again, this seems a little crazy, but it could happen.

I remember asking my mom if Hitler had still familly member living. She told me that he had still nephews living; they promised not to have any childs, in case he become like him. It's an example of a pretext he could have if this child is in this situation.

I don't know if you understand what I meant but it is a factor to take in consideration.

EDIT: maybe you are right, maybe we should just stop it

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Gil Galvanti
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Posted: 7th Feb 2008 04:55
I don't think that there's anything wrong with an "intelligent" debate/discussion, but it's when someone decides to be stupid and start attacking or flaming that debates become bad .


ionstream
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Posted: 7th Feb 2008 06:25
Well what we can agree on is that what this guy did was wrong.

I wonder how long it'll take before some news station gets a hold of it and says "Video Game Kills Child."

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Osiris
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Posted: 7th Feb 2008 06:35
Oh not long one would assume. Especially if Fox got hold of it.

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Agent Dink
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Posted: 7th Feb 2008 07:53
Uh oh, a new debate

tha_rami
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Posted: 7th Feb 2008 08:41 Edited at: 7th Feb 2008 08:43


No one deserves death. We're all shocked about the death of a little girl but the death of a grown man lets us cold? We are hypocrites indeed - life has value and that someone fails to see that does not mean their life is valueless.

Anyone propagating death punishment, as far as I'm concerned, needs to doublecheck his or her morality. If the justice-system works, the murderer will be locked away for (most of) life.

Actually, an Egyptian nephew of mine was murdered. He was 22 and shot straight in the head when he looked over an edge where some terrorists were hiding during a police patrol. I never wanted the murderers dead, although they were all shot in the consequent chase. They didn't deserve that, they deserved a life in prison.

So, murder, does mean they should be locked away, even though, as a friend of mine likes to say, "a life imprisonment costs thousands of dollars of taxmoney... 10 bullets cost $2,50". 47 years sounds pretty appropriate. Again, one might argue 47 years is not the same as the 80 years he has possibly destroyed, but then again, all he has done in life has been for naught now, and he has no prospects left besides to regret his actions.

That, to me, sounds as punishment, instead of relief. Killing someone makes us killers - and that is never good, not for 'good' or 'evil'. Death is, to emphasize my game-roots, Beyond Good & Evil.


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Agent Dink
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Posted: 7th Feb 2008 09:10
Quote: "We're all shocked about the death of a little girl but the death of a grown man lets us cold? "


If this man killed another man for knocking over the Xbox I would still say he deserves a death penalty. This boils down to my personal beliefs in the Bible and what it tells us is morally right so I can't go any farther than that on this forum without ruining this debate for everyone, talk to me on one of my various forms of contact below if you please.

Kentaree
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Posted: 7th Feb 2008 11:04
I think the thing about giving someone the death penalty isn't for revenge, it's to make sure they don't do it again and pose a threat to more people when (not if) they eventually get out of prison. Prisoners have TVs, Playstations etc in their cells, get fed etc, it's bloody ridiculous that people get treated so well (however harsh it may sound) after killing someone, and from our AND the victim's/victim's family's money.

tha_rami
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Posted: 7th Feb 2008 11:26 Edited at: 7th Feb 2008 11:27
I do agree, by the way, that conditions in prisons are far too good in the Netherlands. I still disagree with death penalty. Personal beliefs in the Bible? The Bible preaches mercy and forgiveness, doesn't it?


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Cash Curtis II
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Posted: 7th Feb 2008 12:04
Not the Old Testament Hence the phrase 'I'm about to get Old Testament on your ass'

In regard to this guy, he deserves to die. I understand the value of human life, which is the very reason he does. If he will kill a child over something silly like this then he will likely do it again. He's of no value to society and he's destroyed the life of someone else and he's a permanent risk.


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Grandma
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Posted: 7th Feb 2008 13:16
Yeah, i'm not usually for death penalty, but in this case i'd like to see him dead. Mostly because he's a major risk to other people's wellbeing. Odds are, someone at sometime will knock over something again.

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Insanity Complex
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Posted: 7th Feb 2008 13:36
OK, I almost did but won't go on about my feelings about the death penalty, as it would probably spark a lot of negative debate. At any rate, in this case, I believe the man should get it. If you kill a child, especially over something as ridiculous as knocking over an xbox, you deserve to die, you do nothing good for society that would outweigh your flaws.


WarGoat
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Posted: 7th Feb 2008 14:27 Edited at: 7th Feb 2008 14:27
Quote: "If he will kill a child over something silly like this then he will likely do it again."


This is why, when he will be in prison, he should be followed by someone who try to solve the problem. I think it's one of the best solution to do.

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Kentaree
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Posted: 7th Feb 2008 14:33 Edited at: 7th Feb 2008 14:33
Yes, lets spend more money on some a-hole who kills children. Great idea, I'm sure the mother who probably had to pay for the child's funeral, and who's husband who was probably making money working (this is an assumption, he mighn't have been the breadwinner in that family) is now locked up, would really appreciate that too. Do you not think money would be better spent on the victim rather than on the killer?

Virtual X
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Posted: 7th Feb 2008 14:37 Edited at: 7th Feb 2008 14:39
Quote: ""We don't know if we had some handicaps. If he's someone that get on nerves easily, that have a sickness which affects his mind, it change the way we should treat the matter, don't you think?""


If he has any mental illness then what was he doing fathering a child? even looking after the child!!!

he deserves death, end of.

Quote: "This is why, when he will be in prison, he should be followed by someone who try to solve the problem. I think it's one of the best solution to do."


nonsense! some problems can't be solved! even if they did 'solve' his mental problems, are you really going to trust him after what he did? would YOU trust him with your kids (if you eventually have them), I think not!

the same with a paedo! will you trust them with children? no, I don't think so!
MSon
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Posted: 7th Feb 2008 15:05 Edited at: 7th Feb 2008 15:10
This may only be my opinion, but why is it vertually everyone here is using gang mentality of, (He hurt someone therefore we should philicly hurt him back), talking about PayBack, Killing him, tourturing him, yet non of you proberley realize why the younger generation use personal payback in beating and killing eachother when everyone here is trying to say its acceptable, even in limited curcumstances?

This man did a terrible thing, and should spend the rest of his life in jail, (preferably in isoliation), but i dont think people should use it as an excuse to rashionallize gang mentality.

I especially disagree with the people here saying there goverment should have the right to torture these people, have they not learnt anythink from recent international events?

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Plystire
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Posted: 7th Feb 2008 15:42
Eye for an eye...

I live by it.

If I smack my friend (even on accident), he smacks me back. I understand the concept and life goes on with no hard feelings.


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Agent Dink
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Posted: 7th Feb 2008 17:03
Quote: "Personal beliefs in the Bible? The Bible preaches mercy and forgiveness, doesn't it?"


Sure, there's lots of mercy love and forgiveness but there's also some other very serious moral standards in there. In fact the Bible is where people get the phrase "an eye for an eye". That is part of an Old Testament verse (which seems more supportive of capital / mirror punishment), but the New Testament also supports capital punishment. The New Testament teaches forgiveness and mercy to those affected by the crime, but human governments have full right to punish these criminals as they see fit.

Vengeance is wrong but due punishment from a ruling authority is not.

Mr Tank
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Posted: 7th Feb 2008 19:28
And then the family of the person executed seek revenge against the system. Great.

So we have to pay a bit more to house the prisoners. A small cost for a clean conscience. I don't want to live in a society that systematically and legally murders it's members.

Also i totally agree with whoever said the law is for the deterrent and prevention of crime, rather than for retribution. Surely a life behind bars is a big enough deterrent. Anyway, if someone knows that if they're caught they'll get murdered, then they'll be all the more ruthless trying to escape the law.

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Agent Dink
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Posted: 7th Feb 2008 19:37 Edited at: 7th Feb 2008 19:39
Quote: "So we have to pay a bit more to house the prisoners. A small cost for a clean conscience. I don't want to live in a society that systematically and legally murders it's members."


A bit? Try A LOT of money. But money is besides the point. Punishment for a crime is not a systematic extermination of certain members of society. It's simply punishing someone for their crimes. A legal and systematic murder system is more along the lines of Nazi Germany during the Holocaust.

Quote: "Surely a life behind bars is a big enough deterrent. "


Really, why should it be a deterrent. Prison is free living expenses, 3 free meals a day, free entertainment... It's not even a punishment anymore... Prison is so watered down these days. Look back 200 years at what prisons used to be like... Now that was punishment. No, prison is barely a punishment anymore.

Mr Tank
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Posted: 7th Feb 2008 19:48
Execution is legal and systematic. It's legally determined that some individual should die, a date is set, and they are killed. You listed another example of execution.

So just make the prisons a bit less cushy. Prison is plenty punishment for most people. You dont get to see the opposite sex much, drive a car, go on holiday, or pick up the soap in the shower without looking behind you. Anyway, I doubt this guy thought "hmm, shall i kill my kid for knocking over my xbox or not, let's think, oh no i'd better not because i will go to prison or get executed (and also it's bad)". Otherwise he probably wouldn't have done it.

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Insert Name Here
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Posted: 7th Feb 2008 19:52
I seem to remember a man was put in jail for a week before he was found innocent, and when they released him they charged him rent!


TB3ITBPOMITW
James H
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Posted: 7th Feb 2008 20:02
Quote: "Really, why should it be a deterrent. Prison is free living expenses, 3 free meals a day, free entertainment... It's not even a punishment anymore... Prison is so watered down these days. Look back 200 years at what prisons used to be like... Now that was punishment. No, prison is barely a punishment anymore."

I know a few people who can`t cope with outside world and its system- they refer to prison as a break - they are all repeat offenders and are in/out prison regularly. Its home to some of them and a way of life, but that doesn`t make it easy. Prison is full of criminals hence full of crime. As crime nearly always has a victim then some inmates in there will get punished. The REAL problem is that sometimes someone with a lesser offense would be the victim time and again and someone who deserves that kind of punishment probably won`t get it.
Insert Name Here
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Posted: 7th Feb 2008 20:20
Following that theme, I seem to remember that when someone was cleared as innocent, and asked to leave the prison, they said that they preferred it to the outside world and wanted to stay.

That's sad.


TB3ITBPOMITW
the_winch
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Posted: 7th Feb 2008 20:46
Quote: "A bit? Try A LOT of money. But money is besides the point."


I believe it's actually the other way around. It costs a lot more to execute someone than stick them in prison for a really long time.

http://deathpenaltyinfo.org/article.php?did=108&scid=7

Quote: "the death penalty costs North Carolina $2.16 million more per execution than the a non-death penalty murder case with a sentence of life imprisonment"


Quote: "Florida Spent Average of $3.2 Million per Execution from 1973 to 1988"


No idea how trustworthy that site is.

By way of demonstration, he emitted a batlike squeak that was indeed bothersome.
Pus In Boots
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Posted: 7th Feb 2008 21:30
Quote: "Vengeance is wrong but due punishment from a ruling authority is not."


So, let me get this straight. Government invents law. Government makes sure everyone follows law. Government has priviliges bestwowed upon themselves that allows them to take a life as they see fit. Who's really the murderer here? (That's a rhetorical question. I'm not suggesting the government is some sort of mass murderer.)

As for this guy, I'd say a 'fight fire with fire' approach would seem fair. But that would be contradicted by my above statement. Frankly, I don't see why they should even be allowed to send us to prison. It's not like we signed a contract at birth saying we'd live by their laws.

But anyway, I'm moving into a broader picture of society here, so for THIS GUY, I say: Sicko freak, heartless murderer, depraved excuse for a human being.

See, I would like to see him executed, but at the same time- well, you know my opinions about capitol punishment now. This is hard...

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n008
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Posted: 7th Feb 2008 21:55
This is why the Guillotine needs to be brought back.

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Insert Name Here
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Posted: 7th Feb 2008 21:57
As a punishment for getting banned?

Seriously, if we have to bring in the death penalty, let's not have the guillotine. It's extremely inhumane.


TB3ITBPOMITW
Gil Galvanti
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Location: Texas, United States
Posted: 7th Feb 2008 21:57 Edited at: 7th Feb 2008 21:58
Quote: "It's not like we signed a contract at birth saying we'd live by their laws."

Well, really, just by living as a citizen in the country, you did. It's called the "social contract". You agree to give up some rights for protection. No one is stopping you from going out and forming your own country, after all, I just seriously doubt you'd last long without a structured society .

Quote: "Seriously, if we have to bring in the death penalty, let's not have the guillotine. It's extremely inhumane."

Actually the guillotine was originally invented to be humane. They thought it would be better than hanging. It's not really inhumane, just gruesome, which is better than some people deserve (ie: The guy this topic is about).


tha_rami
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Joined: 25th Mar 2006
Location: Netherlands
Posted: 7th Feb 2008 22:08
No one deserves death. I think it was pretty well said when someone said he didn't want to live in a country that legally and systematically kills criminals, especially not seeing that the justice system can actually be wrong.


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