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Geek Culture / What has happened to the community?

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Benjamin
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Location: France
Posted: 5th Oct 2008 23:16 Edited at: 6th Oct 2008 00:07
Has anyone noticed the state of the PA board recently? Of 50 threads currently about 31 are tools or applications. I remember a time when we had a substantial amount of quality games littered throughout WIP an PA, when this was considered a game creating community. Why is it so different now?

Another thing that has bothered me for a while is the lack of a showcase area on the TGC site, something that used to exist but for some strange reason was removed (EDIT: Mistake, it does exist, although apparently you can't submit to it anymore and it hasn't been updated in a long time). I cannot possibly understand why it was removed, considering it had a plethora of good games that were fun to play and acted as a good enticement to buy DBPro (they were what decided it for me back in the day). One of the great things about the showcase section was that it was managed by Rich, and there was a minimum quality threshold. You couldn't post up cubes-on-a-matrix type stuff because it simply wouldn't get added.

Eventually a gallery was added, but how does this compare? Sure it shows the graphical potential of DBPro (as well as showing the stupidity of users that upload renders of their models and other crap there), but there's usually little information present, and not usually a download link (because most of them aren't even available for download).

To me it seems as if TGC like to concentrate on making their products look pretty on the outside, rather than concentrating on the internals, and this is something I see when I look at the showcase/gallery situation. Take FPSC X10 for example, which is much shinier than its predecessor with its shaders and water that they obsessed over. It supports denser meshes and shaders and all that, but the engine is still inefficient (hello! requires the latest hardware to run even basic things at a decent speed) and the AI is still not very clever. But this isn't an FPSC X10-bashing thread, I'm making the point that to me they appear to concentrate more on how a product looks than how it functions. But that's not the point of the thread, that's just a slightly off-topic rant with a relevant point. The point is to discuss the lack of games at the moment, or at least the saturation of the PA board with tools and applications.

What do you guys think?

tha_rami
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Posted: 5th Oct 2008 23:20 Edited at: 5th Oct 2008 23:20
Agreed .

*jumps on the bandwagon*


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dark coder
22
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Joined: 6th Oct 2002
Location: Japan
Posted: 5th Oct 2008 23:23
I strongly agree with the point about the showcase area, the Program Announcements board is just so... crap. There should be some easily accessible repository for all things made in DBC/DBP etc in well-organized groups and not just a single listing of everything, including as you pointed out, things that aren't games.

I've just made a tech demo and have no idea where to post it, if there was a showcase like before and maybe an auto-generated forum topic in some showcase board where people could discuss it, that would be great. Currently it's just too much of a mess and too hard to find people's work(The codebase and gallery are already messes, shouldn't these be well written like other community's ones?).

Bizar Guy
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Posted: 5th Oct 2008 23:56
I also agree. I'd love to be pumping out games personally, but all my smaller projects wont show up until I finish Dream, my first "Big" project. Really, there seem to be a lack of people working on manageable size games, everyone wanting to make something epic. The showcase was also part of what got me into DBC and DBP, and I was really disappointed when it turned out we could no longer submit projects to it. Is it really gone now? That sucks.

Also, I've not been too happy with recent competitions, having so much emphasis on tech stuff and graphics. There are always some really good games coming out of it (point and case Dark Coders stuff), but back when the compos were all about making good games, it was a lot more exiting. I'm hoping the community compo that was being talked about gets more people working on projects.

Benjamin
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Posted: 6th Oct 2008 00:05 Edited at: 6th Oct 2008 00:05
Oh, it seems the showcase does indeed exist, although I haven't heard anything about it in ages and it seems only linked to from the main menu of the DBP section of the site. Well that's nice, but yes you can't submit to it anymore.

Dared1111
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Posted: 6th Oct 2008 00:07
So I've noticed... Its due to loads of people with poor motivation/stolen ideas.

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spooky
22
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Joined: 30th Aug 2002
Location: United Kingdom
Posted: 6th Oct 2008 00:21
Real life stuff, like jobs, women, getting old, etc, put a stop to coding. I've still yet to finish the game I started writing over 3 years ago!

I agree the old style compos produced lots of nice games, specially the alienware, puzzle game compo and the retro compos, but relying on fancy physics engines and other techy stuff for compos is not going to bring huge numbers of new games.

There are however plenty of other compos going on that get a fair few regular DBPro entries and usually get the top prizes.

Right now there is the retro remakes compo going on, and there is always a caiman compo on the go, both with prizes or cash for winners, so there really is no excuse for people not to write games.

Maybe people are just aiming too high with their ideas thinking they have to write all singing, all dancing games, with loads of 3d, shaders, physics, etc to gain enough respect but then give up when things start getting complicated.

I think another compo with simpler ideas, basic ideas and no need for fancy add-ons is what is needed to kick-start the community.

Boo!
Jeku
Moderator
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Location: Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada
Posted: 6th Oct 2008 00:40
I would love there to be a place where we can upload screenshot galleries, blog updates, contributor information, status', and finished games. Imagine a place like Great Games Experiment but just for indie games--- would be quite a cool place to hang out, where we could comment on each other's products.

Some of these have popped up over the years but nothing has stuck.


Matt Rock
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Posted: 6th Oct 2008 00:43 Edited at: 6th Oct 2008 00:47
I think we're seeing a surge in tools because there's money to be had there. We're even jumping on that bandwagon and publishing Data's Aspectus storyboarding app at MISoft. This community is in desperate need of a high-quality commercial game landing some success. I blame it on the lack of encouragement from senior community members to newbies. Instead of saying "downgrade your idea and make something smaller first," some people just say "you can't do that noob," and break out the flamethrower. I also think the AUP and these forums could use a few revisions to encourage smart team-building and project partnership. I'm not saying the Team Request board needs a revival, but something needs to be done to openly encourage community members to partner with others to work on projects, at least socially if not professionally. Maybe some team-only competitions or something, with prizes for everyone on the winning team.

Edit: In lieu with Jeku's comment, Agent Dink and I have been planning on setting up an area on MINet where people can upload games and stuff, with galleries, forums, and other features. You're talking about something very, very similar to that, and now I'm wondering whose tried it before and what made those fail. We're definitely going to do it in the future, but knowing what other people did wrong would be a huge help

draknir_
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Posted: 6th Oct 2008 01:03 Edited at: 6th Oct 2008 01:05
I agree with you Benjamin.

I'd love to see TGC do something about their site, which IMO is extremely polarized towards marketing their latest FPSC products. This isn't bad by any means, they obviously need to keep their cashflow steady to continue supporting their products, but I would like to see the site reimagined as a 'TGC developers home' or something along those lines. Let users with a forum account start a worklog, which would act like a mini forum so developers can seperate their development updates into a more logical format than a single gigantic thread.

I think this site is an excellent example of how it can and should be done:

[href]www.booleansoup.com[/href] edit: hmm this has href tags but it's not a link. :F

The actual community of that site is tiny because it evolved from the www.div-arena.com community whos membership was already very low.
Cliff Mellangard 3DEGS
Developer
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Posted: 6th Oct 2008 01:04 Edited at: 6th Oct 2008 01:22
i am mostly trying to help newbies out when i can.
as my time are limited,and cant get the time for projects.
I stopped entering the competitions when they all started to be about the plugins and addons.
and not an good game idea.
And also completely agree with spooky
I recently relesed my matrix editor code that i worked a long time on for the comunity, and a bunch of small snippets.
Are currently working on some simple collision system using dummy objects with gravity and jumping.
that i will release as soon as i can get my butt away from resident evil 4 on my wii
almost everybody seams to be out for a fast buck nowdays in the forums ?
when i started out with dbp so was there alot of great games going on,but worse with that now.
But there is some good ones out there like zzz and bizar guy and gil etc
and some other new projects.
cheers

ps lets not forget doubt
Zotoaster
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Posted: 6th Oct 2008 01:43
I think as the community has matured, people have come to notice that tools are getting more useful in the creation of games, so really I think it's a good thing that so many of them are being made. Before you know it, the best of the best will set the new standard for TGC's tools, and the games that follow that use them will be better quality than before.. Hopefully.

As for the Showcase, I agree. I think if a game is good enough it should be shown to the public. Would be good for business too.

Mnemonix
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Posted: 6th Oct 2008 02:12 Edited at: 6th Oct 2008 02:15
I think the community has matured too, but there are still some idiots around(Namely Benjamin )

I think many people in the community have realized that it is easier to make tools rather than make great games and it also has the potential to earn the developer money, by selling the tool or even making a deal with TGC to sell it for them.

The reason you see very few games from me is because I have matured as a developer, and when I think of a new idea I immediately see many of the difficulties I am going to have developing it, so I usually try and find something a bit more feasible. Newbies generally don't have this level of foresight until they have tried(and failed) several projects.

TheSturgeon(playing me at chess) : I will use my powers of the horse and pwnzor you.
Zombie 20
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Posted: 6th Oct 2008 03:36
If I had a pc *on a mac* I'd gladly be developing games.

On the other hand, I am very happy for all of the tools and apps being made, as a progger, it gives me great flexibility to achieve what I want in my games. I love it, think of all the applications for what you want and its all in here in TGC.

but I agree heavily, I miss games.


Coffee coffee coffee coffee coffee coffee cappacino, JAVA!
Drew Cameron
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Posted: 6th Oct 2008 04:10
There has always been too many tools and too little games.

I will be back to make another game soon enough.

Here's a thought. Make a board for TOOLS, because I actually avoid WIP boards like the plague because Im so sick of annoying tools.

Mr Tank
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Posted: 6th Oct 2008 04:43
I agree that it would be cool to have an organised "showcase" thing. Somewhere where you could see screenshots, read info about and download games from whenever, and be able to comment. Kind of like youtube, full of links to related games.

This would be a fine incentive for people to make finished, polished games, and would be fun to browse. It's kind of a shame that at the moment, once your game falls off the first page, virtually noone's going to see it. If i do play a awesome game that was made a couple of months ago, the thread is locked and i can't tell the author how cool it was.

Quote: "Right now there is the retro remakes compo going on"

Huh? Where is it? Stuff like this needs to be better publicised. I'd like to do a retro remake, but have heard nothing!

Sasuke
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Posted: 6th Oct 2008 04:51
For me, I haven't shown much of my work for the same reason you wouldn't talk about your non-copyrighted ideas to a developer. That's why I haven't made a WIP even though my game is 2 years in the making, i'll show bits and pieces now and then usually when I've got a problem. The editor or tool I'm making is the main editor for my engine, kind of like Unreal's editor. I'm the sort of person that wants to push the platform, I don't just talk about what I'm going to do but do it, so I've set my goals high and ready for any challenge that awaits me, that's only way I can progress, through challenging myself. Err, anyway...

I would agree then, I'd love to showcase my work when its more stable, blog and other stuff, great way to promote the indie scene. I think the WIP board is far to invasive for me, I don't want to tell them every detail about my game, theres no surpise, but that's just me.

A dream is a fantasy, if you achieve that fantasy it was never a dream to begin with.
jasonhtml
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Location: OC, California, USA
Posted: 6th Oct 2008 06:08
maybe we could just have a simple vote system so that after a WIP post gets over X number of good votes, and has few bad votes, it gets transfered over to a "Showcase WIP" section? And once the game or app has been declared completed, the thread creator can create a special thread in a "Finished Showcase" board. that way, we can sort through all of the crap in the normal WIP section and people have to work their way up.

after rereading what i wrote, i noticed this could be high upkeep for the mods... hopefully if this was ever implemented, the vote system would take care of itself and require little maintenance

Sid Sinister
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Posted: 6th Oct 2008 07:53 Edited at: 6th Oct 2008 07:56
Quote: "Of 50 threads currently about 31 are tools or applications"


That's because in order for us game developers to achieve a game of quality and a reasonable level of professionalism with DB, we have to make our own tools. It's frustrating. Every time someone sits down and wants to make something, we have to reinvent the wheel. Take a look at the messages on the DBP Boards for instance. It's the same stupid questions with the same disappointing response... 'In order to do that, make your own tools.'

AND THEN, once we actually sit down to make our own tools, we find that DBP can't even do that! Tiring and mind bending work arounds are often needed to even get a nice windows like GUI system going. It's mentally exhausting, so we forget about our pipedreams and forget about making the tools required to make our pipedreams.

Sure TGC has it's world builder program you can buy or whatever, but it's really bad IMO. Van B's Tersculpt progam was the only thing on these forums in recent history that actually got me excited about things again. I take that back, any work by Sasuke gets me worked up about things as well. You guys are brilliant.

As for the rest of us, we get tired of the BS. I understand that this is how it is with other languages anyway, but at least with other languages it's worth the effort because we actually have the appropriate commands and access to certain things.

/endrant on that

/start new rant

I've also had a bit of beef with the Geek Culture board. Is it me? Or are more and more of the threads on geek culture lacking intelligence? Maybe that was too harsh... but maybe you can agree with the fact that it's gotten monotonous. The Posting Competition thread and the Word Association thread annoy me very, very much. It's stupid, it's a waste of time and resources, and I'm sick of seeing it every day. If you want to something homo like that, get on IRC and pollute the IRC channels with your little competitions.

/endrant

/start new rant

I've given up on TGC Products. I'm basically here to exist in the community, which is by far the ONLY thing going for TGC. FPSX10 fell short of expectations, and the new DBPX10 is no where in sight. I was originally going purchase the new DBP when it came out, but time actually passes in RL, and now I'm in college learning Java, C++, and dabbling in a few others.

One thing TGC did right, besides the community thing, was the online store. I'm an animator more than I do programming, which is why you don't see me producing anything programming wise. I tried to with DBP, found that I needed to make my own tools, tried making my own tools and then found out that I can't make my tools the way I wanted to because DBP fell short.

/endrant

Gallery? A gallery won't fix things. It will help make things flashier, but it won't equip the little guy with the tools he needs to be successful. That's what's really lacking right now, and it's why we don't see anything of epic proportions being produced. With that, I conclude my opinion. Take it as it is, or don't.



"If I have seen a little further it is by standing on the shoulders of Giants" - Isaac Newton
-Computer Animation Major @Baker.edu-
Alucard94
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Posted: 6th Oct 2008 08:09
Quote: "I've also had a bit of beef with the Geek Culture board. Is it me? Or are more and more of the threads on geek culture lacking intelligence? Maybe that was too harsh... but maybe you can agree with the fact that it's gotten monotonous. The Posting Competition thread and the Word Association thread annoy me very, very much. It's stupid, it's a waste of time and resources, and I'm sick of seeing it every day. If you want to something homo like that, get on IRC and pollute the IRC channels with your little competitions.
"

I've noticed this as well, it seems as there have come new people to TGC (Basically that has joined this year) and most of them can't spell and make threads that go like "I rly like this games, what do u think???" with no effort put to them at all.
And that's like 70% of everyone who seemed to join 2008 for some reason.

And to be honest, this might come out harsh, but the Models & Media board is, as of what I've seen, filled with people who like to easily start flame wars and can't take criticism...


Alucard94, the member of the future of the past.
Megaton Cat
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Location: Toronto, Canada
Posted: 6th Oct 2008 10:10
I think TGC long realized that the next commercial ground breaker that would catapult DBP mainstream is not gonna be made with DBP by hobbyists. So they are focusing on cashing in on tools for hobbyists to use...as a hobby.

In the time I spent here, I have collaborated with people in attempts to make games. These people lived out big chunks of their lives during that time and I've seen the gradual changes. High schools were graduated, uni degrees were earned, full-time jobs and full-time girlfriends were acquired...we need to face it: No one competent and capable will stick around long enough to make the next badass game, and there will always be a circulation of fresh blood eager to try and get their 15-min of fame at the WIP board.

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Van B
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Posted: 6th Oct 2008 14:01
The community simply doesn't bother playing other peoples games these days, so with much less feedback than there used to be, I think developers these days prefer to concentrate on their bigger projects.

The first step in a big project is to make the tools that you need for it, and project survival is dependent on making tools that are easy and enjoyable to use, which takes a lot of time.

I think a revamped showcase system would be great, really we've been asking for this for so long that we've stopped asking for it - but a blog style showcase where we could post comments and screenshots on our progress would be great.


Health, Ammo, and bacon and eggs!
Seppuku Arts
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Posted: 6th Oct 2008 14:43
Quote: "Has anyone noticed the state of the PA board recently? Of 50 threads currently about 31 are tools or applications. I remember a time when we had a substantial amount of quality games littered throughout WIP an PA, when this was considered a game creating community. Why is it so different now?"


I've noticed yes, I've been on sites for other engines/languages and they seem to have 'more' to show on site and given how good DBP is I'm quite surprised with the lack of projects released.

But lets take a look at the community, Ben, what are you up to these days? You've worked hard on your Multiplayer plugins, other than that, I'm not familiar with any of your games. Rami, he has several WIPs, but none as far as I've seen are finished, Aikicat, he was a great level designer, but I've not seen a DBP project of his released as of yet (correct me if I've wrong), me, so many failed projects and you probably could continue the list.

Now - I probably could account for a few people and say education is in the way - for example, I'm at University and am working on a text adventure so that I can at least have 1 complete project. Some projects I think might be bigger than the experience and time of the project starters - I'm probably a prime example of that type.

Saying that, we have some great and rather large projects in the WIP section.

Perhaps somebody could organise a collaberation of small open-source projects to raise the profile of the community and of course offer code and media to help people kick-start their game making hobby with other small projects. I started working on a space shooter code that I think is looking pretty groovy, I've got a text adventure engine made - these are 2 contributions that could come along from myself. Of course I say small projects because it seems big community projects fail.

Quote: "I've also had a bit of beef with the Geek Culture board. Is it me? Or are more and more of the threads on geek culture lacking intelligence? Maybe that was too harsh... but maybe you can agree with the fact that it's gotten monotonous. The Posting Competition thread and the Word Association thread annoy me very, very much. It's stupid, it's a waste of time and resources, and I'm sick of seeing it every day. If you want to something homo like that, get on IRC and pollute the IRC channels with your little competitions."


Interesting, somebody on our Uni forums had a similar complaint about those forums - and to be honest the majority of the people on there are geeks.

I wouldn't mind seeing more interesting topics, but the answer to that is, post more interesting topics - stuff I would normally provide good discussion for is disallowed by the AUP, and others wouldn't be relative to 'geek' culture and I don't know about the case for other people. Random threads seem to get the discussion for the sake of discussion and some might be fun, but they tend not to add anything worthwhile right? Saying that, I could try to offer my own contributions in topics when I get the internet installed at our house (yeah, it's taking us ages - it's getting the house mates together and discussing things, we've all finally decided we're going with Virgin...huzzah, but we're going to have to organise ourselves and actually do something. )

You sir have the moral ambivalence of a mutated shrimp!
Sid Sinister
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Posted: 6th Oct 2008 18:19
Too add to Seppuku's list, I haven't really made anything either. I probably could, but I'm aiming for my own high profile projects. I've gotten caught up in making tools and now I'm kind of bored of it. The last contribution I made programming wise was to contribute to Van's Tersculpt level editor. Other than that, I try and contribute in the DBP board and help the noobs, but I've been so disgusted with things lately, I've only been existing on the GC board. I'm keeping myself busy with designing my game further instead of the tools.

Quote: "Perhaps somebody could organise a collaberation of small open-source projects to raise the profile of the community and of course offer code and media to help people kick-start their game making hobby with other small projects."


Brilliant idea! I'm going to think about it a little more, but I might start wiping up some small design docs and see if we can't get a few of those small WIP projects off the ground. Good idea.

"If I have seen a little further it is by standing on the shoulders of Giants" - Isaac Newton
-Computer Animation Major @Baker.edu-
PowerSoft
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Posted: 6th Oct 2008 19:05 Edited at: 6th Oct 2008 19:09
As much as I dislike to agree with Benjamin and make him feel like the cat that got the milk the points made are valid.

After an absence from DBP to do some real coding (joke..?) I fancied having a little play again. Being out of the scene and from the forums to lead a life (joke..?) I decided I'd do some snooping at some projects both WiP and PA to see how the community is moving on. Aside from a couple of projects in both boards that look exciting the number of tools I saw was bewildering.

On the subject of incomplete 'projects' well (I will add I am a DBP fan, and not hater) the whole ethos of 'plugin for this, plugin for that, plugin to make "hello world"' is quite disconcerting. I understand the need to operate a business and make money but my concern is that it seems that TGC needs to be more careful. They are flogging to death the fact that plugins are available but by doing this are they giving ut the message that unless plugins are bought then the program is useless?

Just my views,

Software and Web Application Design.
Diggsey
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Posted: 6th Oct 2008 19:06
I'm just waiting for GDK.net, or a version of DarkGDK that works properly... (There is no clean way to use debug mode, and it recently stopped working for me anyway...)

Also, the reason I make tools is because it allows me to gain experience with DirectX and C++ without having to create a whole engine from scratch.

[b]Yuor signutare was aresed by a deslyxic mud...
BOX2D V2 HAS HELP FILES! AND A WIKI!
JoelJ
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Posted: 6th Oct 2008 20:03 Edited at: 6th Oct 2008 20:05
I actually avoid the PA board and read the WIP board, because that's where the quality games are being showcased (Dream, SoulHunter, Pirates of Port Royale, and others). I've noticed that the PA board is quite ... noobish? I mean, someone makes a cube jump and they post it as "Jumping Cube FINISHED!!!!" and I'm like... ugh. And they put it there just to have something on the PA board... it's like the WIP board doesn't make you cool or something. But the mature members who are actually working on something realize they're not done with it so they put it on the WIP board.

If I had any say in it (and I really don't...) I'd say the mods should be more strict on what goes into the PA board. Maybe have post monitoring on for anyone who posts in the PA board, and if it doesn't pass certain specs then it moves on over to the WIP board. That would probably require new mods, but I can think of several people who would pay money to be in that position

And I also agree that there needs to be better compos. The Alienware compo brought us some of the best DBP games ever made. That compo inspired many-a-people to make some sweet games. There was real motivation. And I also like the idea for team compos. That would be sweet. I'd participate if there was one, even if the prizes were small.
I even miss the 72 hour compos that went under a couple years back (not TGC compos, but some other site) those would be fun to have again.

I also miss the good old days where the members let the mods correct people and let them decide when a thread was locked. I think more people should just have more of a mindset to be helpful to everyone even if they don't think they deserve it, and stop with the "Oh boy! Another locked thread" comments. I see that so much now, and it's pushing me away from the community more and more. If you don't like their posts, just don't respond!


IntelCore2Duo@2.60GHz-4GB RAM-NVIDIA Quadro FX 570M-Windows Vista Business 32bit
RalphY
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Posted: 6th Oct 2008 21:45
I think as others have said tools are easier (can focus just on the programming side and not have to worry about media etc), people have a lack of time, and lack of feedback on smaller games.

As for myself I started work on my big DBPro game 4 years ago. However my skills as a programmer improved over that time, and my vision of what the game should be, causing several re-writes. Consequently it never got to a state were I had anything substantial to show. Then a while back I moved on to XNA for game development as the lack of OOP was starting to annoy me (I was spending most of my coding time in DBPro trying to simulate OOP). Now I don't have any time for hobbyist programming as I just started a job as a full time software developer.

Honestly, even with DBPro making a complete game with media, music, sound effects, and great game-play requires a lot of work - and I think most people that have the commitment to see it through to the end aren't going to be interested in languages like DBPro.

Oh boy! Sleep! That's when I'm a Viking! | Super Nintendo Chalmers!
Beast E Gargoyle
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Posted: 6th Oct 2008 22:06
I still use this comunity. Except I am alot more weary about using it after I was slapped for no darn reason.

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David R
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Posted: 6th Oct 2008 22:27
Commun-a-what now?


09-f9-11-02-9d-74-e3-5b-d8-41-56-c5-63-56-88-c0
Benjamin
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Posted: 6th Oct 2008 23:23 Edited at: 6th Oct 2008 23:25
Quote: "I would love there to be a place where we can upload screenshot galleries, blog updates, contributor information, status', and finished games. Imagine a place like Great Games Experiment but just for indie games--- would be quite a cool place to hang out, where we could comment on each other's products."

I agree, it'd bring so much life to the community. But are we ever going to see such a thing? With Rich busy with work elsewhere he doesn't have time to even do some work on the forums let alone an entire system like this. Sometimes I feel we've been abandoned in a way, since there doesn't seem to be an official admin anymore.

Quote: "It's kind of a shame that at the moment, once your game falls off the first page, virtually noone's going to see it."

And worse the fact that it's a bunch of tools that push it off the edge.

Quote: "I think as the community has matured, people have come to notice that tools are getting more useful in the creation of games, so really I think it's a good thing that so many of them are being made."

Don't get me wrong, I think it's great that there are now so many useful tools made available. But it's all I see this community doing. Maybe it's just a stage it's going through, where eventually we'll see tools filling all corners of game development, so that people can focus on making the games again.

Quote: "Here's a thought. Make a board for TOOLS, because I actually avoid WIP boards like the plague because Im so sick of annoying tools."

I completely agree, games and tools really need to be separated. It wasn't a problem in the beginning as there were few tools, but now that there are many they seem to saturate the PA board.

Quote: "That's because in order for us game developers to achieve a game of quality and a reasonable level of professionalism with DB, we have to make our own tools. It's frustrating.
"

I think part of the problem is that a lack of experience means you won't know how best to accomplish something with the tools that you have, and you'll end up creating applications to do the job (although yes, I do know that some tools are necessary, just making the point that some people can go over the top with what they think they need). I believe what you're saying is valid to a certain extent, but there's been plenty of games in the past long before all these tools popped up.

Quote: "I've also had a bit of beef with the Geek Culture board. Is it me? Or are more and more of the threads on geek culture lacking intelligence? Maybe that was too harsh... but maybe you can agree with the fact that it's gotten monotonous."

I've thought this for a while too.

Quote: "But lets take a look at the community, Ben, what are you up to these days? You've worked hard on your Multiplayer plugins, other than that, I'm not familiar with any of your games.
"

Game creating doesn't interest me so much, although programming in general does. I like technical things. I used to be into game creating when I originally started with DB, although I'm quite a stubborn person so I was reluctant to use 3rd party tools and such, which resulted in me wasting a lot of time trying to do things I didn't know how to do myself. That's one of the contributing reasons for me giving up in the end. Game programming requires a lot of knowledge of the use of various things, whereas I'm more of the kind of person that likes to create something rather than learn how to use a collection of things and put something together with them.

soapyfish
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Posted: 7th Oct 2008 04:11 Edited at: 7th Oct 2008 04:18
In my opinion a board for members who had been here a good few years would be a positive addition. It's fair to say the majority of new users here are under 18 and this is possibly their first experience of a forum for learning as opposed to just discussing specific games, consoles etc.

After about 3 years anybody who hadn't been banned would have gotten to know the community and what kind of things do and don't stand. Every community is different and it takes some new users a while to settle into this one.

Perhaps any new users who had been here for less than 3 years but were seen to be getting along fine with everything could be allowed access to the oldbies board before the 3 years were up? Because there would certainly be plenty of new users who just got on with things straight away, as opposed to some whom perhaps needed some guidance as how to best get their point across on this particular forum.

Ideally the oldbies board would need no moderation whatsoever and the amount of posts per day compared to geek culture would be far lower but with those posts that are made possibly being of higher quality?

I'm trying not to sound like a huge crank so forgive me if I have, I'll be the first to say my game making past is pretty blank but there are some real gems in this community, it's just about finding them in the rough.

EDIT:: Just wanted to point out I do realise the amount of time somebody has spent on these forums is no reflection whatsoever on their coding ability.

Torrey
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Posted: 7th Oct 2008 06:09
Quote: "I would love there to be a place where we can upload screenshot galleries, blog updates, contributor information, status', and finished games. Imagine a place like Great Games Experiment but just for indie games--- would be quite a cool place to hang out, where we could comment on each other's products."


I'm an application developer and would be willing to use my own money, and would code an entire site in asp.net with a sql server backend if people would use it.

Dev time for something like a Great Games Experiment site could be a few months, but I think it would be worth it for a community as big as TGC.

Jimmy
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Posted: 7th Oct 2008 06:36
What happened to the recent posts links up on the top of the page where the hot thread links are now? That's the real question.

I still find myself checking up there for the latest posts. I really... I just really liked that feature...

You know?

"Oh hey, nice website Jimmy, it's really nice and fancy." -- That C++ Nerd
Visit. Website. NOW!
jasonhtml
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Posted: 7th Oct 2008 06:48
Quote: "In my opinion a board for members who had been here a good few years would be a positive addition. It's fair to say the majority of new users here are under 18 and this is possibly their first experience of a forum for learning as opposed to just discussing specific games, consoles etc."


actually i think that could be a very bad thing. then, more advanced users will help newcomers a lot less. and some people with egos will act elitist. i know i learned a lot from the more experienced users on here.

Jesusaurisrex
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Posted: 7th Oct 2008 07:08 Edited at: 7th Oct 2008 07:14
well, im trying, i just posted a tutorial in the 3d chat section, something I'v noticed is the lack of tutorials in that section.
they should defiantly have a tools section though. its not fair for people to make a great game and have it over looked by tools. now, i dont really even bother looking at any threads that are not red in the WIP/PA areas, normally because it is some tool. we need to fix it. we can fix it. even in that old showcase everything was an alien ware game, because the people who made them had motivation, prizes. i think a great way to get tgc back up and going again to hand out one prize to the best WIP and one prize for the best PA every 3 months.
that would get people motivated.

Sid Sinister
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Posted: 7th Oct 2008 07:37 Edited at: 7th Oct 2008 07:45
Quote: "I'm an application developer and would be willing to use my own money, and would code an entire site in asp.net with a sql server backend if people would use it.

Dev time for something like a Great Games Experiment site could be a few months, but I think it would be worth it for a community as big as TGC."


Wouldn't that be a sucker punch. TGC's own forum members migrating to a third party forum because theirs has been, as ben said it, abandoned in a way.

Quote: "I understand the need to operate a business and make money but my concern is that it seems that TGC needs to be more careful. They are flogging to death the fact that plugins are available but by doing this are they giving ut the message that unless plugins are bought then the program is useless?"


I agree. Plugin this, plugin that. Buy this plugin, pack or tool to better make your game. Way to nickle and dime us after putting us in such a position that we NEED those things... I think some of us have seen this and made our own tools and plugins. The funny thing is, in my opinion, a lot of them are better than what TGC is selling. Torque comes with these things if I'm not mistaken.

EDIT: Don't get me wrong. I understand that a company needs to make it's cash, but I think it's gone a little too far. Maybe not even too far by not including enough of their plugins or whatever with DBP, but too far as in not giving us the complete, full, set of things. For example, the help menu failed epicly. Collision failed for a while under sparky came along. Terrain creation also failed under AT came out. I know some of this just comes along with them figuring things out as their product matures but... If they made it feel like the quality of their product was excellent, I'm not sure if I would complain about not getting a few extra plugins. I honestly don't know if I would or not.

@Joel: I agree.

I think a new tools board would help. Not only would it clean up the WIP/PA boards, but it would also centralize a lot of the tools that people are looking for. What do you guys think about a tools board?

"If I have seen a little further it is by standing on the shoulders of Giants" - Isaac Newton
-Computer Animation Major @Baker.edu-
Torrey
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Posted: 7th Oct 2008 13:33
Quote: "Wouldn't that be a sucker punch. TGC's own forum members migrating to a third party forum because theirs has been, as ben said it, abandoned in a way."


It wouldn't make sense to reinvent another forum. This one is just fine and full of valueable resources and information. What I proposed was for a community site for users to have blogs, show case their work, distribute what they are working on, etc.

AndrewT
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Posted: 7th Oct 2008 13:40
Quote: "Don't get me wrong. I understand that a company needs to make it's cash, but I think it's gone a little too far. Maybe not even too far by not including enough of their plugins or whatever with DBP, but too far as in not giving us the complete, full, set of things. For example, the help menu failed epicly. Collision failed for a while under sparky came along. Terrain creation also failed under AT came out. I know some of this just comes along with them figuring things out as their product matures but... If they made it feel like the quality of their product was excellent, I'm not sure if I would complain about not getting a few extra plugins. I honestly don't know if I would or not.
"


I totally agree. Take a look at any good game engine - Torque, C4, 3DGS, etc. They all have built-in physics, AI, collision detection, and more that you can only get in DBP from plugins. What's up with that? Those are all standard game features; they should be built in to DBP.

Van B
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Posted: 7th Oct 2008 14:56
Some game engines do have built in editors, AI, etc etc, but they cost more than DBPro. But then what about upgrades and license fees? - some engine publishers make you pay for upgrades and releasing a commercial game may mean you have to fork out for licensing.

But then what happens when the built in collision detection doesn't work how you'd like, or if the AI simply can't do everything you need it to? - you might end up using a plugin anyway.

DBPro plugins are there to increase functionality, they are cheap and can save a great deal of time. I mean I don't know about you guys, but the comparison between paying £13 or something for a fast light mapper compared to writing my own (which I probably couldn't do anyway), is huge - £13 is nothing.


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tha_rami
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Posted: 7th Oct 2008 15:57
Quote: "But lets take a look at the community, Ben, what are you up to these days? You've worked hard on your Multiplayer plugins, other than that, I'm not familiar with any of your games. Rami, he has several WIPs, but none as far as I've seen are finished, Aikicat, he was a great level designer, but I've not seen a DBP project of his released as of yet (correct me if I've wrong), me, so many failed projects and you probably could continue the list.

Now - I probably could account for a few people and say education is in the way - for example, I'm at University and am working on a text adventure so that I can at least have 1 complete project. Some projects I think might be bigger than the experience and time of the project starters - I'm probably a prime example of that type. "

I finished Little Arcade Pack #1, and the others but didn't even bother to post them as they were lacking in quality for anything but showing I can program. Also, Wartorn: Jarods' Fall was completed. Seadome: Perception is under steady development.


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Seppuku Arts
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Posted: 7th Oct 2008 16:23
Quote: "i just posted a tutorial in the 3d chat section, something I'v noticed is the lack of tutorials in that section. "


http://forum.thegamecreators.com/?m=forum_view&t=124872&b=3

Mike posted up a stick called 'Great 3D resources' (linked above), it contains some useful tutorial links and I have submitted a number of my own tutorials on this forum for 3D modelling - though the results not fantastic demonstrate some useful techniques. I've been trying to get back into writing a tutorial series directed at newbies working with them to model using any 3D package, however I've just not had the time (nor the tools - after using the Silo 2 trial I now refuse to use anything else - it suits my style perfectly)

You sir have the moral ambivalence of a mutated shrimp!
Sid Sinister
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Posted: 7th Oct 2008 16:59
@Van: I see your point and agree with that one too. It's just a fine line for me I guess. I think where I can find the middle ground is to say, release a quality product off the bat, and then charge a small amount for the plugins. That way I won't have to spend my time developing work arounds or trying to figure out the main product, and then I would feel better when I buy plugins that ENHANCE the product, not fix gaping holes of things that should have been there, or been fixed, in the first place.

One trade off of not having everything bundled together like you do in torque, is not having the peace of mine that everything places nicely together. While I fully understand why, and love the fact that DBP is so expandable due to plugins, I also thoroughly enjoy a stream lined development suite.

"If I have seen a little further it is by standing on the shoulders of Giants" - Isaac Newton
-Computer Animation Major @Baker.edu-
Jeku
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Posted: 7th Oct 2008 17:47
Quote: "Torque, C4, 3DGS, etc. They all have built-in physics, AI, collision detection, and more that you can only get in DBP from plugins."


Take a look at the prices for those other engines


Sid Sinister
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Posted: 7th Oct 2008 19:31
Help me see the benefit when I compare...

http://www.garagegames.com/products/28/#features

Torqued Advanced $295.00 USD

Quote: "# Materials - TGEA updates Torque so that all rendering uses the new Materials System. Materials are surface descriptions that can be used for things such as physics and sound information, but has been fleshed out for rendering. The Materials are designed to work on all types of geometry. They look the same whether placed on a building, the terrain, or on a skinned character. They are unified as much as possible throughout the engine.

# Flexibility - Data specified in Materials is used to procedurally create the shaders necessary to render the different materials. This is a very powerful system because it does not rely on programmers to create the shaders. It is an art/designer driven process. Because there are many different Material parameters, there are thousands of possible shader creation combinations. In addition, the shaders are generated specifically for the hardware that the engine is running on. Shaders automatically scale in power and render quality based on the platform. It will even multipass render a Material automatically if necessary. This adds up to massive time savings for developers; artists can get results without directly involving a programmer, and programmers don't need to write dozens of mundane shaders.

# CustomMaterials - Procedural generation of shaders is a real time saver, but it can't create every kind of shader imaginable. For special effects or custom "looks", the CustomMaterials are available. They allow shader programmers to easily drop in their own .hlsl or shader assembly files right into TGEA framework. There are even fallback hooks for each level of shader hardware, so there is full control over how it looks on all platforms.

# Rewritten Renderers - Each of Torque's major renderers has been rewritten to be simpler and run more efficiently. The interiors, for instance, are now batched and rendered per zone. What's more they can do bumpmapping, specular highlights, lightmaps, fog, and detail maps in a single pass on hardware that supports 2.0 level shaders.

# New Terrain Engine - TGEA's new Atlas terrain engine is a complete rewrite of the Torque terrain technology, taking full advantage of modern hardware. Geometry is stored in vertex buffers, enhancing rendering performance. Atlas also supports terrains of arbitrary size, as it has terrain paging management built-in.

# New Water Renderers - TGEA's enhanced Water Renderers produce amazingly realistic water with normalmap-perturbed dynamic reflection, surface reflection, and more. The new Waterblocks are easier to use and more efficient to render. Taking advantage of the latest graphics hardware, TGEA Waterblocks have full effect fallbacks, supporting the entire range of shader hardware.

# TGEA supports render-to-texture functionality for all kinds of special effects. This allows Glow and Refraction Buffers and all kinds of effects in the future like Depth of Field, Motion Blur, 3D HUDs, and many other possibilities.

# TGEA supports and fully manages static and dynamic vertex buffers as well as textures. This is a big upgrade from TGE in that now everything is transformed and lit on the GPU rather than the CPU. Since it manages all the allocations using ref counting and smart pointers, developers do not need to worry about keeping track of vertex buffer and texture memory allocation - it's all automatic."


Quote: " * Torque Lighting System: Introducing multiple shadowing algorithms, self-shadowing objects, bloom, specularity, dynamic range, and more. Flexible in-game lighting editors and tools support significantly increased game atmosphere and design efficiency. Light objects can be configured as static or dynamic, omni or spotlights, and are capable of illuminating multiple interiors, shapes and terrain.

* Procedural Generation of Shaders that support bumpmapping and normalmapping, detail maps, specular, cubemapping, glow, refraction, reflection, texture UV animation, and fog.

* Custom Materials: A powerful custom shader interface allows easy integration of custom shaders and effects. Users can drop in shaders from demos or tools such as FX Composer and RenderMonkey. Also included are exclusive fallback hooks that allow full control over how a custom material looks on all hardware platforms.

* Modern Scenegraph and Batched Rendering for creating complex scenes with huge numbers of polygons.

* Puppeteer Mesh Animation System: Allows the use of animated multi-bone skeletons for dynamic, flexible character actions with a high level of detail. Fully supports motion capture data for ultra-realistic animations.

* GeoTerrain: Featuring multi-pass texturing and lighting, and layered volumetric fog, the portal-based interiors -- with detail brushes and animated lightmaps -- are able to connect directly with the environment-mapped terrain. GeoTerrain can easily be created using an alpha-channel height map, then edited within the engine to customize levels.

* Doorway: Seamless integration of interior and exterior rendering.

* Atlas Terrain Generation allows for limitless, dynamically paging terrains, taking full advantage of modern hardware for efficient rendering.

* Water Renderers: Easy to use Waterblocks with limitless size ocean bodies, normal map reflections, refractions, and perturbed surfaces.

* 3D Toolset: Edit every aspect of your world, including terrain attributes, weather and fog, configure objects, set triggers, and mission logic all in the WYSIWYG Mission Builder. Build fully scriptable interfaces, write custom controls, edit, and test without exiting the GUI Builder. Includes mesh exporters for Maya, 3D Studio Max, LightWave, Blender, MilkShape and more.

* Networkable Physics: Lightweight systems allows for hundreds of players with collision detection, rigid body, and vehicle physics.

* Xbox 360 Portable. Create your game with Torque Game Engine Advanced, and port to XBox 360. (Requires separate license to Torque 360 game engine)"


-------------

http://darkbasicpro.thegamecreators.com/?f=order_packs

DBP Bundle - $313

Quote: "This massive bundle pack includes: DarkBASIC Professional Online + Dark Physics + Dark A.I + the DarkBASIC Professional Enhancement Pack + EZ Rotate + Texture Maker 3 (Advanced) + 3D Canvas Pro + 3D World Studio (Standard Edition)"


OR

DBP Bundle - $178

Quote: "This bundle pack includes: DarkBASIC Professional Online + Dark Physics + Dark A.I + the DarkBASIC Professional Enhancement Pack + EZ Rotate + the Animated Sprite Pack #1."


------

295 vs (178 OR 313)

Quote: "Take a look at the prices for those other engines "


Not bad IMHO.

"If I have seen a little further it is by standing on the shoulders of Giants" - Isaac Newton
-Computer Animation Major @Baker.edu-
General Reed
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Posted: 7th Oct 2008 19:32
Quote: "Take a look at the prices for those other engines"

Look at the price of Ogre3d + PhysxSDK + OpenAl lol

CPU: AMD X2 6000+ 3.0ghz GFX: NVIDIA BFG Geforce 8800GTS 640MB OC-550mhz core RAM: 2048mb

JoelJ
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Posted: 7th Oct 2008 19:39
oh comeon guys. You've taken this in the wrong direction. We're not trying to completely bash TGC or something. Ben was just trying to point out the frustrating lack of games being produced in DBP. If you think the other engines are a better deal, go for those.


IntelCore2Duo@2.60GHz-4GB RAM-NVIDIA Quadro FX 570M-Windows Vista Business 32bit
General Reed
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Posted: 7th Oct 2008 20:04
Well i was just pointing out the freeness of in my opinion a better set of tools for game development.

CPU: AMD X2 6000+ 3.0ghz GFX: NVIDIA BFG Geforce 8800GTS 640MB OC-550mhz core RAM: 2048mb

Jeku
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Posted: 7th Oct 2008 21:59
Then use the other tools? Nobody here will stop you. Myself, I own a license to half a dozen game engines...


JoelJ
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Posted: 7th Oct 2008 22:08
DBP is the easiest I've used. But the tradeoff is power.

I do think, however, that some way to have team requests and a convientient and awesome way to show things off to people, like Jeku previously suggested, would really breath live back into the community.


IntelCore2Duo@2.60GHz-4GB RAM-NVIDIA Quadro FX 570M-Windows Vista Business 32bit

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