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FPSC Classic Product Chat / [LOCKED] Why does fpsc get a bad rap?

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warzenz
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Posted: 22nd Jun 2010 20:55
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I have seen people bash fpsc because they say that coding is way better well is it? i don't want to learn any code i just want to make games for me and anyone who cares to play them. I don't feel like i could learn C+ or whatever they use, I dont know if there just bragging that they can code or are they right should i move away from fpsc and go with something else?

Thanks for your time
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Nbt
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Posted: 23rd Jun 2010 01:25 Edited at: 23rd Jun 2010 01:26
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The gimps and geeks will always bash the ready to roll stuff, that lets normal people have a chance at making their dreams come true.

It's always been that way, just like the old school Linux users bashing any form of Linux that does not require a degree in scripting just to install it

These are the same geeks that make virus creation scripts, then slap down the people that use them calling them "script kiddies"

Your signature has been erased by a mod. The sig needs to be 600 width maximum (x 120 height) for all of it.
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Flatlander
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Posted: 23rd Jun 2010 02:08
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If you don't want to learn Dark Basic or C++ or C# or even Visual Basic (yes you can create games using VB), then stick with something like FPSC.

I am a retired programmer. In fact I have written RPG Mod. But, I don't want to actually write a game from scratch.

Do you know that there are engineering applications that use the drag and drop method like FPSC does. These applications also create a program as an end result. Engineers with doctorate degrees in computer science are using them. So actually FPSC is on the leading edge of that type of programming methodology.

With FPSC you can even literally create a game without any scripting knowledge as well. However, you have to use stock scripts and be satisfied with simple games.

If you want to go beyond what you can get out of stock scripts then you will have to learn how to script. But it is easier than learning a programming language. Although, it still will take some time to learn and a lot of time in experimenting with the script.

I created RPG Mod because I wanted to go beyond the First Person Shooter experience and take it into the realm of Role Playing Games. What is cool with RPG Mod is not only can you use it just for RPG, you can also include "shooting" capabilities. But, using RPG Mod is script intensive.

Lee was interested in my idea and at first was thinking of incorporating it into a later version of FPSC. However, he has decided against this because his idea with FPSC was a simple and easy way of game development without needing a lot of scripting. So, he is doing some things with the migration that make it easier but it still be very limited. He is going along the lines of making it into FPGC (First Person Game Creator). This way he can market it to educators who are not interested in the shooting capabilities.

Well, they don't call me "a bag of wind" for nothing. I will quit now.

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The Storyteller 01
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Posted: 23rd Jun 2010 02:57 Edited at: 23rd Jun 2010 13:24
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I did a lot (and still do a little) modding with the editors included in big-name games like Tomb Raider, NWN 1 & 2, Morrowind, Oblivion or Gothic.

First I have to say that even most of those "specialised" editors are less user-friendly than FRPSC. For example CHROME, a rather old SciFi-Shooter that look partially like it's made with FPSC, has an unbearable editor.

On the other hand the NWN 1 editor was so foolproof that it even allowed community made MMORPG servers(!).

The bottom line is, that there is no editor for everybody and never will be. Personally I think - compared with the editors I used so far - FPSC has still a long way to go. But it's the best investment in the future I see atm so I will stick to it.

In case you find my grammar and spelling weird ---> native German speaker ^^
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Shadowtroid
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Posted: 23rd Jun 2010 05:35
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C++ and coding gices you complete customization. Live with it.

FPSC is however much easier to use, and is more visual. Which is better for people who are not logic based. So I guess it depends on how much time you are willing to put in and how you think.

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Plystire
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Posted: 23rd Jun 2010 11:33
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Look, I understand if you don't want to go through learning C++ or real programming, but not learning to script is just lazy. It's very simple and very easy to script. So, at the very least, I suggest you learn how to script for FPSC.

Making a game in FPSC takes a day, while making a game from scratch takes MUCH longer (months to years), but at the end of it all, I will have to say that a game made from scratch just simply can't be touched by FPSC. I admire people for putting forth the effort to make a game of their own with code of their own.

And before the delusions set in, I will say it right here for you. You will never make a game with the graphical quality of Crysis using FPSC. You will never get the physics of Half-Life 2 using FPSC. You will never get the gameplay of Mirror's Edge using FPSC. You CANNOT compete with AAA titles using FPSC. Do not fool yourself into thinking that you can. And don't let people fool you into thinking that. Accept the software for what it is and you'll come to understand its strengths and weaknesses and you'll make better games because of it.


My 2 cents.


The one and only,


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SpyDaniel
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Posted: 23rd Jun 2010 11:59
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Quote: "The gimps"


Do you even know what one is? Should you have used this word? NO.

If you can't code or can't learn to code, then FPSC is the only decent option, otherwise learn Dark Basic to make your own games.

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Shadow Blade
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Posted: 23rd Jun 2010 21:06
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Quote: "but not learning to script is just lazy. It's very simple and very easy to script. So, at the very least, I suggest you learn how to script for FPSC."


Exactly my opinion, you can learn the syntax in less then 5 minutes. Then it's just inserting commands and a lot of trial and error. It's so easy to do and can make your game stand aside from the crowd and be unique.

Nothing can compare with FPS Creator, it's incredibly easy to use buy with a little innovation can have amazing results. Sure you won't make the next half life, but great games can (and have been) made. The amazing ease of use and flexibility of gameplay put FPS Creator in a category of it's own. Anyone can throw together a level and those with a little more commitment can peice together something really good.
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Bugsy
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Posted: 23rd Jun 2010 21:27
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I know many programming languages, and I wouldn't mind writing a whole game, but I like FPSC because it's a good base engine to expand on, and you get great results almost everytime. there is also a lot of inexpensive media, and a very active community.

imageflock.com/img/1272671763.jpg[/img]
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Conjured Entertainment
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Posted: 23rd Jun 2010 21:46 Edited at: 23rd Jun 2010 21:56
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Quote: "Why does fpsc get a bad rap?"

Because, not everyone has good taste.

Quote: "You will never get the physics of Half-Life 2 using FPSC. You will never get the gameplay of Mirror's Edge using FPSC. You CANNOT compete with AAA titles using FPSC. Do not fool yourself into thinking that you can. And don't let people fool you into thinking that. Accept the software for what it is and you'll come to understand its strengths and weaknesses and you'll make better games because of it."

I think never is stretching it a bit, but you are right, people shouldn't expect it to be the same level as those game engines for now.
Every update brings FPSC that much closer to spanning the Hobby/Pro gap, and FPSC can have all of those things in time.
The others engines are proof it can be done, so what is stopping FPSC other than our faith in it and our ability to help it evolve and progress?
Accepting it for what it is will always be good advice, but to say it will never be as good as the others is giving up on it in my opinion.

"Everybody's gotta have a dream."...D Jay

I say don't let people fool you into thinking FPSC is at its limits or that it will never be better than the others.

Quote: "Look, I understand if you don't want to go through learning C++ or real programming, but not learning to script is just lazy. It's very simple and very easy to script. So, at the very least, I suggest you learn how to script for FPSC."

Yes, FPI is the easiest scripting language I have ever used.

FPSC is easy to use for non-programmers and those who want to learn scripting basics with an easy to learn scripting language.
Why people would want to compare it to engines that require extensive knowledge of top level languages like C++ is beyond me.
Why would you expect a tool like this to have equal or better results when the experience level of the users so far apart?
Even if FPSC had more features that the other engines, it's ease of use compared to them would conjure (lol) a user group that has less experience in game design overall.
It is the ease of use that set the destiny of FPSC on a collision course with the hobbyists, but that is okay.
Not everyone wants to learn C++, and FPSC is there for them and those who are just starting their game making journey.

Anyway, that is why FPSC gets a bad rap... the opinions are based on expectations that were unrealistic to start with.

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rolfy
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Posted: 23rd Jun 2010 23:09 Edited at: 23rd Jun 2010 23:19
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Quote: "the opinions are based on expectations that were unrealistic to start with"

That sums it up.
I find that most of those who rap FPSC could have done so much more with it, if they had the knowledge and skill they claimed to have. Many have moved onto other engines without having to knock this particular software, in fact many still hang around here, they didnt have to moan about the limitations, in fact they learned a lot from this engine and respect that.
Some folks just get frustrated by the bugs and crashes they encounter with it, its not perfect, but for what it is it works most of the time, all game creation is smoke and mirrors anyway, its like a theatre production or a movie.
If you want to create a game you can expect some issues along the way, its that way for the top developers of AAA games too but they are top notch at what they do and get it fixed easier than the casual developer, with a team of experts to back it up, although suspect a lot of hair pulling is done even by those guy's.
If you expect to create a AAA game, learn the skills required and get a job with Ubisoft or summat, there is no magic wand.
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warzenz
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Posted: 23rd Jun 2010 23:15
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Thanks everybody for your responses! I will try to learn the scripting i have fooled around with it before but haven't got it just right yet.
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Conjured Entertainment
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Posted: 23rd Jun 2010 23:30 Edited at: 23rd Jun 2010 23:35
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Quote: "That sums it up."

Yeah, and you can quote me on that anytime that anyone gives a negative opinion about anything...


..it could be like an automated response or something.

Like one of those waking up from a daydream in a meeting only to hear..."so, what's your thought on that?"

Then, you say, "Uhhh...I think...the opinions are based on expectations that were unrealistic to start with."

Then someone else says, "I agreee, and...", and then you go back to daydreaming.

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Wolf
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Posted: 23rd Jun 2010 23:35
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Basically, you need time to get familiar with FPSC. It has way more possibilites than you might think at the beginning. I' m using it for years now since I' m only doing games as a side Hobby (way better than watching TV in the evenings, I' tell ya!)

You might be interested in checking out my projects since people concider them very good. Well... just check the showcase and work in progress board to get an idea

You can have very good results with it. Thats a promise.

But, sure, you can do better with some kind of engine like UDK or source. But:

Most people that left FPSC to work with such engines have disappeared forever without any results. Its almost impossible to code a "good" First Person Shooter as only one person. Remember you need to:

Code
Design
Model
Write
Edit
etc.

Its one hell of work if you want to do it with an engine. Most people I know that tried it, almost ended up with a website called "Whatever" Productions/Designs/Studios/Interactive/Entertainement etc. Playing professional developer and never get anything done.

Thats the truth... and these people that spend their sparetime with playing professional, being stuck up on the interwebs and behaving like they are the lead developers of the next game of the year are the same people that bash fpsc because it doesn't has a "make next CoD naow!!" function.

If you wanna make a game for yourself to have some fun designing a level, this is your tool.

If you want to play professional developer... try Dunia Engine xD

Whatever: FPSC is the best and most entertaining software ever created. End of story!



-Wolf

God Helps the Beast in Me!
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Soviet176
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Posted: 23rd Jun 2010 23:40
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You could always source FPSC using dark basic, which is a programming language. Maybe not a high level language like c++ but sure as heck a language. You also have to look at these huge game developers. Like for instance, Hi-rez studios who made Global Agenda, they simply used Unreal 3. Most AAA developers use other peoples engines, it's not like they code them their self. Bioware is a good example, who is excited for The old Republic? I am, but they are making that in Hero's engine, and guess what, Hero's is more easy than FPSC is, you literally play a character in world, and you place things down, your like god, or like playing sim city. Of coarse it does come with the option to code things in c++ and it's not very limited (Thats why its expensive) but the editor is like a game.

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SOTSOG FPS GameCreators
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Posted: 24th Jun 2010 00:40
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I would just like to say i use FPSC as a base for my gaming needs. it has ease of use and the ability to change almost every aspect of your game via scripting which as many have said is easy to learn once you've grasped the concept. As for can it compete with the big boys of the gaming world, well i will tell you this i created a three level game with some of the better free textures from these forums and items i've brought from the TGC store and sent it to my brother who has been coding games for over twenty years, and who now works for EA Games!! and he said he couldn't beleive it had been made using a drag and drop editor. Well thats my word on the subject, and if any of you are wondering what S.O.T.S.O.G stands for its Standing On The Shoulders Of Giants, which in my opinion The Game Creators are......
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Flatlander
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Posted: 24th Jun 2010 01:47 Edited at: 24th Jun 2010 02:02
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You should get FPI EditPad. Espeically good for beginners, but even Lee, Nickeydude, myself and others use it. It is free. Download the installer from FPSC download page. Scroll all the way to the bottom and click on the download link. Then go here to get the most current update.

Addendum:

Click on the download button to get a short tutorial on the basic syntax of scripting FPSC. This is very important to understand.

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Shadowtroid
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Posted: 24th Jun 2010 01:51 Edited at: 24th Jun 2010 15:05
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Again, it's always ease of use vs. how much you can do.

For example, The 3D gamemaker pretty much makes a game with no work at all. However, they all seem similar. Coding in C++, however, is much much MUCH harder...But you can make your game completely original.

As for FPI editpad, I like it, except sometimes it gets mad at me for not completing a line, which kinda gets on my nerves. But overall, great tool for beginners.

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Flatlander
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Posted: 24th Jun 2010 01:58 Edited at: 24th Jun 2010 02:07
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Quote: "except sometimes it gets mad at me for not completing a line"


That keeps you from having bad syntax. If you have bad syntax then your script line won't work.

If you plan on not finishing a line then start the line with a semi-colon. Don't forget to delete it when you are finished with the line.

Or, you can turn auto-syntax checking OFF and then use the option to check syntax later. You can also highlight the code without syntax checking, however, this will check to see if you have no more than two colons.

Use the help file to learn how to use the app.

Nickydude and Lee use it and their not beginners. I'm not a beginner. You just have to learn how to use it.

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Shadowtroid
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Posted: 24th Jun 2010 02:51 Edited at: 24th Jun 2010 15:05
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Quote: "If you have bad syntax then your script line won't work. "


Well yeah, but sometimes I like to stop mid-line on work on another.

I think it's safe to say that I'm not a beginner at scripting, as I have been doing it for a while now. I do like it when I think I have some syntax problems, like misspelling a command (I hate it when I mess up a script like that) or giving something an X value when it shouldn't be there.

Either way, it's a good app, I just have a personal preference.

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Crusader2
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Posted: 24th Jun 2010 03:49 Edited at: 24th Jun 2010 03:52
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Here's my two cents:

FPSC was the second game engine I ever used, and it was great, for awhile. I had some fun, learned a LOT along the way, and started to understand exactly what it means to make a real game. FPSC introduced me to coding; I now program robots for my school's robotics team. FPSC taught me the fundamentals of level design; I'll use such ideas for the rest of my game design career. However, as the scope of my goals broadened, FPSC became too small and weak to use, so I moved on to another engine.

My advice to aspiring game designers would be to use FPSC as a jump-off point; don't go getting the Havok or Unreal Engine until you understand the bare basics of game design. FPSC will teach you the basics in a matter of weeks. FPSC is a GREAT engine to start with, and it has a lot of potential. But the fact of the matter is that FPSC CAN'T compete with Crysis, Halo, Call of Duty, or any large scale commercial game. So use FPSC to learn and, when the time comes and you understand what you're doing, move on to another engine.

Also, when it comes to scripting, it really doesn't get any easier than FPSC. If you need an example, look at this UnrealScript code for a grappling hook:

And remember, that's just the weapon. There are two other equally complicated files handling the rest of the process. This effect could be (closely) replicated in FPSC using a tiny bit of code compared to that. I would write it out myself, but don't remember exactly the commands needed to do so

My point is, FPSC is a great starting point, but not a good finishing point. Use it, learn from it, but move on. It's a fun engine, and I crack it open when I get sick of my current engine, but it's not a serrious commercial engine. Use, learn, move on. That about sums it up.

Best Regards,
Crusader2

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Thraxas
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Posted: 24th Jun 2010 04:09
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Quote: "but it's not a serrious commercial engine."


Who ever said it was?

/rhetorical question

Your signature has been [mod edited] :-p
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Flatlander
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Posted: 24th Jun 2010 05:01 Edited at: 24th Jun 2010 05:04
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Quote: "Who ever said it was?"


Wait, let me think. I'm sure I will come up with who said it. Just wait.

Oh, never mind,
Quote: "/rhetorical question"


I doubt if I'll ever move on. You can create some serious stuff with this engine in a lot less time that it takes with a programming language or any other complicated game engine. Also, the cost is a lot more reasonable with a lot of model support.

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Toasty Fresh
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Posted: 24th Jun 2010 09:42
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If you don't want to sell your games, another option is making a total conversion mod for a game. It's much easier, and I know people have purchased games only so they can play a certain TC.
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Aaagreen
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Posted: 24th Jun 2010 13:14
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FPSC has a "bad rap" because of vanilla FPSC's inability to happily render even the tiny map size it currently has.

They don't stick around long enough to look into mods.

I'd love to see things from your point of view but I can't get my head that far up my bum.
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The Nerevar
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Posted: 24th Jun 2010 15:03
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I was gonna to use Dark Basic.........when I'm ready.

I'd have to say........ The Game Creators can make dreams come true.
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Conjured Entertainment
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Posted: 24th Jun 2010 16:22 Edited at: 24th Jun 2010 16:58
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Quote: "I doubt if I'll ever move on. You can create some serious stuff with this engine in a lot less time that it takes with a programming language or any other complicated game engine. Also, the cost is a lot more reasonable with a lot of model support."

Yeah, Lee has me hooked too.
Time is a critical factor, and there is no better engine to save time with than FPSC.

Quote: "but it's not a serrious commercial engine. "

Quote: "Who ever said it was?"

Quote: "Wait, let me think. I'm sure I will come up with who said it. Just wait."

I did, and I still do, because to me serious does not mean big studio.
Commercial means you are in it to make money, and usually that takes the highest priority.
So, all commercial work is serious because the developer has a vested interest (time if not money but usually both) in the project.
The difference in commercial work is Studio (usually large teams with big budgets) vs. Independent Developers (usually smaller teams or an individual with much smaller budgets).

Bottom line... FPSC is a great engine to produce commercial work for independent developers who have limited resources.
This is because you do not need a large team or a large budget to make a high quality game(Yes, I think the end result is outstanding IMO).
It is also because of FPSC's wonderful license that allows you to use it commercially without royalty fees, unlike those other 'serious' engines mentioned.

If you think FPSC should be equal to a $300,000 engine not only used by, but requiring, a large team of developers, then again the expectations are unrealistic.

So, yes, move on if your goal is to work for someone else, or if you want to spend years learning to use an engine.
If you want to continue to do things your way without compromise, and do it now, then FPSC is something to stick with.

For me FPSC is a serious engine, because it gives me the opportunity to become an independent game developer regardless of my skill levels or experience.
Those other engines can't claim that, because they are more complex and require extensive knowledge to use them.
They are intended for big studios and not the little guy.

The guys giving FPSC a bad rap are looking at big engines used by experienced programmers at big studios with big budgets.
FPSC is the opposite of that, but that does not mean that FPSC is not a serious engine or that it cannot be used commercially.

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veer
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Posted: 24th Jun 2010 16:58
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why everyone compare fpsc game to half life or cyrsis,

if you look around at gaming store..there are plenty of types of games that are well below the fpsc game level and people are still buying it

this is very depressing forum
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Kravenwolf
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Posted: 24th Jun 2010 16:59
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Quote: "They don't stick around long enough"


That's the answer right there. They buy the software, play around with the stock media for an hour or so, notice the laggy performance, and then they make their conclusion. They skip the updates, the mods, the shaders, the thousands of free media assets on the forum, and then they move on. I'm sure a majority of users on the forum right now are still unaware of what the software is truely capable of with enough time and sweat.

Anyway, I would say that the biggest problem is that the critics don't stick around long enough to realize that FPS Creator is a game engine in itself, and not just a drag and drop tool. They give up on it before they have time to find out they could build a game from scratch just like they could with UDK or Unity 3d. Custom levels, characters, weapons, animations, textures, HUDS, yada, yada, yada. And then they could have jumped into the modding/scripting catagory and add in all sorts of unique gameplay attributes.

My honest answer would be, FPS Creator gets a bad rep, because it's critics are too lazy to find out what it can really do.

Kravenwolf

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Conjured Entertainment
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Posted: 24th Jun 2010 17:00 Edited at: 24th Jun 2010 17:18
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Quote: "if you look around at gaming store..there are plenty of types of games that are well below the fpsc game level and people are still buying it"

Exactly
I have seen moms let the babes make the purchasing decision, which is soley based on the cover alone...

"Which one do you want dear?"

as the kids who can barely talk points to the fuzzy little bear on the cover of the crappiest game on the shelf.

Quote: "My honest answer would be, FPS Creator gets a bad rep, because it's critics are too lazy to find out what it can really do."

That does have a lot to do with it.
I hope you guys don't think I was selling it short by failing to mention what it can do.
We all know of it awesomeness because we have been around, and the reason I don't go on about what it can do is because the list is too long.

v117 is going to change a lot of minds about FPSC, so the bad rap is only temporary anyway.

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CapnBuzz
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Posted: 24th Jun 2010 22:15 Edited at: 24th Jun 2010 22:23
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Why do people bash FPSC? Because ease-of-use is often seen as being a toy.

In fact, FPSC is the most inexpensive, easy-to-use, commercially-viable engine on the market. Plus, it is in a constant state of development through official builds and mods. And, there's a stream of inexpensive high quality content from an active community. Lastly, because of all of the aspects listed above a person can create an interesting, playable, fun game alone in their garage without a team! So, my question is "Why would someone easily discount FPSC?" It seems very short-sighted for anyone single person wanting to develop a shooter.

All creative projects are broken down into two components: technology and imagination. This stands for games as well. There will always be those who say the technology must be amazing and state-of-the-art, but are cards games technologically advanced? They've lasted 100's of years. IMHO, it is the use of technology guided by imagination that creates a good game. There are plenty of AAA games with bells and whistles that are hideous gameplay experiences... the same as there are many big budget movies that are horrible. Imagination is the wildcard in all creative projects -- moreso than technology.

So, what does this have to do with FPSC? Obviously, FPSC will never be a AAA engine, but with imagination spurring workarounds, developments, and using the engine's limitations to your advantage (all technology has limitations that you must understand during creation) it is capable of making good games. Heck, Tarantino made a pretty good RESEVOIR DOGS movie with almost no money and a lot of smoke-and-mirrors! (Games are a guided experience with many tricks and slights-of-hand too. They are not virtual sims of the entirety of reality. They best games simply hide the "rails" from view) The same applies to games and FPSC.

Lastly, FPSC will give you back what you put into it. If you think it's a toy and use it as such, the output will be simple and bland.
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Metal Devil123
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Posted: 24th Jun 2010 22:44
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Quote: " "Uhhh...I think...the opinions are based on expectations that were unrealistic to start with.""

Answers almost on everything... except there is one thing that answers on absolutely EVERYTHING:
"I was frozen today"

I really agree. I mean, I just found FPSC, becouse I wanted to create a game. Just something simple and easy. I searched links from google. Then I accidentally clicked The 3D GameMaker and looked at the video. I thought that it looks cool, and just wanted to order it. I saw that you can get FPS Creator with it and save money. I thought, what the heck and so I got both. At first I was into 3DGM, becouse it was just easier and I did it for wasting time. I didn't even know how to go up and down layers in FPSC. lol. When I got into it, I made some laggy, crappy levels, and I becouse I was so amazed, that it's actually on the screen, I thought this is gonna be great! Well, then I learned and here I am now. I know no-one wanted to hear this, but anyone else isn't telling theirs story so someone has to. And I also waisted your time, so HA!

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Plystire
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Heh, I forgot about this thread.

Quote: "I think never is stretching it a bit, but you are right, people shouldn't expect it to be the same level as those game engines for now.
Every update brings FPSC that much closer to spanning the Hobby/Pro gap, and FPSC can have all of those things in time.
The others engines are proof it can be done, so what is stopping FPSC other than our faith in it and our ability to help it evolve and progress?"


True, I guess I did use specific games as examples, so to say never was a bad choice of wording on my part. FPSC may eventually let you have some nice things from the AAA games, but that's just it... eventually.

What's stopping FPSC from evolving you ask? The same thing that stops the AAA games coming out from evolving.... nothing! The AAA games will always come out with higher and higher quality, and while FPSC may catch up to... heck, we'll dream for a moment here... Crysis, in terms of graphics, you have to remember that by the time that happens, the amount of quality in a AAA game will have skyrocketed and Crysis will be old news.

The gaming industry isn't stopping to wait for FPSC to catch up, so don't expect a two man team to get FPSC caught up to the "pro" standard and keep it that way.

And we all know there will always be newbies coming into the boards expecting to make the latest AAA quality game with FPSC. That, I will say, will never be done. Because FPSC will never compare to the latest AAA titles.


The one and only,


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Rampage
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Posted: 26th Jun 2010 08:37
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Quote: "the amount of quality in a AAA game will have skyrocketed and Crysis will be old news."

Crysis graphics are already old news in terms of the new AAA games being pumped out. But I'm with Ply. Yes, FPSC will eventually get to AAA quality of modern times. But by the time it does AAA will be considered much more that what it is today.


Eidos!
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Conjured Entertainment
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Posted: 26th Jun 2010 18:23 Edited at: 26th Jun 2010 19:38
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Quote: "The gaming industry isn't stopping to wait for FPSC to catch up, so don't expect a two man team to get FPSC caught up to the "pro" standard and keep it that way.

And we all know there will always be newbies coming into the boards expecting to make the latest AAA quality game with FPSC. That, I will say, will never be done. Because FPSC will never compare to the latest AAA titles."

"There you go again Mauriachi with those negative waves." ... Oddball

Two man team?
Lee + Mike + Hockeykid = 3

But there is something else to consider that may bite your new never in the butt... google code.

I'm not sure what is going on with that being included in v117, but I am guessing that the source will be officially 'open source'.

When that happens it is quite possible that dozens, or hundreds, or even thousands of developers will be helping FPSC to evolve in a collaborative effort.
That would mean endless possibilities for FPSC's future.

I'm not trying to be unrealistic here, just optimistic, but that could be what it takes to make FPSC become the best AAA engine out there one day.
(not just the best for beginners or for those with lower budgets, like it is now)

Quote: "What's stopping FPSC from evolving you ask? The same thing that stops the AAA games coming out from evolving.... nothing! "

Exactly, and that is my point.
We cannot say it will never be this or never be that when we know there is nothing stopping its progression.
The only limitation FPSC has is its user, and I have been saying that from day one.

The only never I can relate to FPSC is that I will never stop having fun with it.



Quote: "Crysis graphics are already old news in terms of the new AAA games being pumped out. But I'm with Ply. Yes, FPSC will eventually get to AAA quality of modern times. But by the time it does AAA will be considered much more that what it is today."

That statement also confirms what I am saying...
Crysis' Cry Engine was considered the best AAA engine out there at one point. (probably still is by some since its just an opinion anyway)
The questions we need to ask are...
Was it always the best?
Will it always be the best?
We all know (or at least we should know) that the answer to those two questions is NO.
The point is, the title of being "the best" is hard to maintain because the other guy will constantly be developing something new that people think is better. (your point - and I agree)
Any engine out there (even if it is a WIP) has the potential to be the best, because it could always set the new bar with its latest innovation.
It is quite possible (and I think inevitable) that FPSC will take its turn at the top.
The only question is when, and that depends on us to be the innovative ones and come up with the ideas or methods it will take to make it happen.
Like you said, a two man team will have a vary hard time doing it, and will probably always be a step behind the larger teams.
That is why the open source collaboration will thrust FPSC into greatness (it's already great but you know what I mean) much faster than expecting them to do it all on their own.

This is why I respect those who work on MODs of the engine like Plystire, and Hockeykid, and FLatlander, and others.
They are real coders who do something to make the engine better, instead of claiming to be an expert coder, only to badmouth the engine and leave it having done nothing.
Now, I just have to convince them that FPSC can be the best, so they will live up to their potential and make it the best. (but I can imagine Plystire's response to that: NEVER!)

I doubt that many of the developers of the best AAA engines sat around saying "we'll never be the best".
I say that because in order to win, you have to first believe that you can.
If you do not think you can win, then will you try your hardest to win?
It is by thinking we can be the best that we give 100% effort, and that is what it takes to be the best..you have to give it your best effort.

With that I leave saying... give FPSC a chance and give yourself a chance because there is greatness there waiting to be unleashed.

   Conjured Entertainment

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veer
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thank Conjured Entertainment

people like you is an confident boaster
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Soviet176
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Honestly, I am not trolling or anything. I DO truly believe that the engine gets a bad rep because of the name. Look at older engines like the engine that made quake, people still use it. People look at FPSC and only see the name. The name makes it look like a toy, if the name was changed to something like Cryengine I bet you people would not bash it as badly. I seriously do believe its the name.

The X10 Revival Competition
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Red Eye
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Posted: 27th Jun 2010 12:24 Edited at: 27th Jun 2010 12:28
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nvm

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Benjamin
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Posted: 27th Jun 2010 13:58
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I believe it has a bad reputation for the poor AI, poor performance, and general instabilities. It also lacks a decent scripting language which means overall you are limited in what you can alter (unless you're willing to modify the engine code yourself). Considering it's the second effort TGC have made in regards to creating a game maker, it's not a bad effort. Although, people don't consider this when they rate an engine (and why should they).

As for the whole google code prospect I don't think it'll make a difference. One of the main problems with the engine is that it's just so slow, and the only way to improve this would be to practically rewrite the entire engine. And anyone with that kind of knowledge would most likely want to write their own engine from scratch anyway.
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Wraith Staff
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Posted: 27th Jun 2010 18:01
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Quote: "I DO truly believe that the engine gets a bad rep because of the name."


Exactly! I've been saying this for sooo long... I think that with the migration, a new name should come with it. I keep saying FPS Studio, but I don't know. Seriously, image is 1/2 the battle (and I guess knowing is the other half )

Quote: "Lee + Mike + Hockeykid = 3"


Oh yes, Hockeykid. I haven't really gotten to know him on a more personal level, but he's really "saving" FPSC! I know that Fenix Mod, PB and the Migration aren't all his work exclusively (duh) but any one alone pulls us several steps closer to the current-gen engine FPSC is evolving into and with the newest update for PB supposedly integrating Fenix Mod and being built using the migration source, that literally adds thousands of high-end professional features that it'd been lacking before (not to mention long awaited stability ).

I know I rave about this on almost all the threads I'm on (when I'm not prying for information as to where someone got their awesome models/media, that is ) but it makes me proud to be an FPS Studio developer (see what I did there?)

Heck, even looking at the Community Guide and all the awesome tutorial threads... If you take all the neat little tips and tricks and add them all up, you can make some professional stuff from vanilla (though we don't really see all that much unfortunately).

Well, that's my five cents (I think I ended up saying this same speech on like 5 different threads... wow!)

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Soviet176
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Posted: 27th Jun 2010 18:09
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Quote: "(see what I did there?)"


I see wut you did thar. lol.

The X10 Revival Competition
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Conjured Entertainment
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Posted: 27th Jun 2010 19:33 Edited at: 27th Jun 2010 20:46
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Quote: "I DO truly believe that the engine gets a bad rep because of the name. Look at older engines like the engine that made quake, people still use it. People look at FPSC and only see the name. The name makes it look like a toy, if the name was changed to something like Cryengine I bet you people would not bash it as badly."

And what part of CRY would make an engine sounds better?

Cry like a baby? (that makes it sound like it is for a weakling)

Cry like I'm sad. (nice impression the engine must really be bad if it has that effect on me) - -

Or Cry like tears of joy? (that sounds really manly [/sarcasm])

I'm sorry, but I think Cry Engine is about the dumbest name they could have come up with.
Maybe Crying is cool where they come from, but here it is for the weak, so at best the name Cry Engine is weak.

I think they would have been better off just calling the engine the Crysis Engine.
Even though I like Crisis better, because it can actually mean "a time when something very important for the future happens or is decided".
However, that is usually used to describe an unwanted or damaging thing happening as suggested by the words main definition...
"a situation or period in which things are very uncertain, difficult, or painful, especially a time when action must be taken to avoid complete disaster or breakdown".
That doesn't make the use of the word "crisis" very appealing at all. (maybe for the game and its plot but not for the engine)
I would ask "what does Crysis mean?", but I know it is just a play on spelling with the real word they should have used.
The cry part comes from the Crytek name, which one can only speculate the conncetion to their title "Far Cry" which was the game that put them on the map.
I'm not trying to bash their name, just trying to explain why I think the name doesn't make a good example of a cool name.
No, I am not saying I can come up with one cooler, but I sure would have kept trying instead of settling on Cry.

I think TGC knows the name for FPS Creator needs improvement, hence the FPGC for the 'non-violent' version.

I don't see anything wrong with FPS Creator, because it was direct to the point and described the product in the simplest terms. (it is just that)
However, maybe you guys are onto something there, and maybe the engine is getting a bad rap simply because of the name.
After all, the name is open to as many perceptions as there are viewers, meaning each person can have their own unique meaning for the same name.
With that thought though, one could argue that changing the name will make very little difference. (maybe why Cry Engine is an acceptable name)

I have to say though, if I had to choose between "First Person Game Creator" and "Cry Engine" for the name of a gaming engine... I would choose FPGC any day.

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Shadowtroid
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Posted: 27th Jun 2010 20:35
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I think it's the "engine" part in Cryengine that makes it sound cool.

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Conjured Entertainment
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Posted: 27th Jun 2010 20:43 Edited at: 27th Jun 2010 20:50
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Quote: "I think it's the "engine" part in Cryengine that makes it sound cool."

I think you are right.
In order for FPSC to be considered the best gaming engine out there (or even a gaming engine), then they have to know that it is a gaming engine.
I was surprised to see that FPSC was not on the list of FPS engines at Wikipedia. (I thought it used to be, but maybe it was removed)
With the word ENGINE actually in the name, it leaves no doubt as to what kind of tool we have here, and that is it is not a toy.
On the other hand, that may be a limitation if you want to modify the engine for other uses, but you could just change the name again.

Even Cry Engine used Machinima to demonstrate its potential during its development and marketing phases.
I think it is high time people start seeing Machinima for the animation potential that it has to offer.
Everyone uses game engines to produce Machinima, which limits the movies to those game assets.
Game mods offer more flexibility, but I would like to see an engine that is designed for Machinima production as opposed to games.
I guess then it may technically not be Machinima anymore and considered just computer aided animation, but it would still be machinima to me.
I think there would be great potential there, and that is what I have in mind for my MOD project of the FPSC source.
Luckily, the word engine will not conflict with that use, and really there are not too many scenarios where the word engine would be a problem.
So, I agree; the incorporation of the word 'engine' into the product's name would be an improvement.

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Plystire
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Posted: 28th Jun 2010 02:07 Edited at: 28th Jun 2010 02:09
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Benjamin hit the nail on the head here. If the name doesn't drive someone away (for whatever reason, not going to get into that) then the instabilities, lack of performance, lack of graphical quality, and lack of decent AI would probably do it. I know the migration is about to come out to fix the AI problem (supposedly), but unless the others are fixed as well... I don't see many hardcore development companies sticking around to use this.

As for Crysis and why they called it "CryEngine".... well, they also use "Crytek". That's just the prefix they've chosen to use. It's catchy, easy to remember, brandable (already branded now, actually), and when people understand that it came from "CRYsis" they don't normally think of it as "crying like a baby".

I hate to say it, but Crysis is STILL hailed as one of the most graphically appealing games to date. And the next installment of theirs is probably going to do the same.
I have an issue with the way Crytek does things, though. They've said it themselves. They don't use optimizing techniques to make the game run faster. They do it on purpose because they don't want to degrade the "quality" of the end product.
Now... this makes me worried because... they DON'T use the typical optimizations, and they can still pull off such wonderful graphical effects, wonderful AI, and a stable engine (it runs at like... 12 FPS on high for today's GPUs, but that's what they've considered an acceptable compromise for quality)..... while FPSC uses lots of optimizing techniques, can't pull off decent AI, can't pull off wonderful graphical effects, and runs at the SAME framerate as Crysis does ON MEDIUM... and which of the two looks better?

So... far be it from me to think FPSC will catch up one of these days.

If you want to vouch on Google Code being the savior to this engine, that's fine by me, but I'm not going to be lulled into such delusions. I've seen the code many of the modders here produce. It's not always the prettiest thing in the world to look at.
I hate to say it, but I'm becoming very cynical towards FPSC's future.


The one and only,


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bond1
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Posted: 28th Jun 2010 02:21 Edited at: 28th Jun 2010 02:23
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Why do these discussions keep coming up? Why do people insist on comparing FPSC to CryEngine, et al?

I'll tell you what - the day FPSC has the capabilities of Cryengine will be the day it becomes UNUSABLE for 99% of the people here. You can't have all those features and capabilities AND keep it simple for kids and people with no programming skills. I'll take ease of use over the latest flavor-of-the-month graphical effect any day.

FPS Creator is the PERFECT name for the software. I remember when I started searching for an easy to use game engine back in 2004. I think I googled "first person shooter creator", or "first person shooter maker". TGC knows what they're doing.

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"bond1 - You see this name, you think dirty."
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Shadowtroid
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Posted: 28th Jun 2010 03:04
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Quote: "I think I googled "first person shooter creator", or "first person shooter maker". TGC knows what they're doing."


I have to agree with that. FPSC is made for hobbyists, and so the name is easy to find for people like me.

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Metal Devil123
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Posted: 28th Jun 2010 17:05
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Quote: "why does fpsc get a bad rap"

Obviously, becouse it rocks...

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Bugsy
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Posted: 28th Jun 2010 21:09
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Quote: " "why does fpsc get a bad rap""


because they hired a rapper who wasn't talented.

imageflock.com/img/1272671763.jpg[/img]
skype = isaacpreston. I want to talk to YOU
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Aaagreen
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Posted: 28th Jun 2010 21:34
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So they had a very, very large selection of rappers to choose from.

Like, all of them.

I'd love to see things from your point of view but I can't get my head that far up my bum.
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