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FPSC Classic Product Chat / [LOCKED] "FPS Creator Reloaded - Project submitted to KickStarter"

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Marc Steene
FPSC Master
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Posted: 16th Oct 2012 15:24
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Quote: "My concern is that simply adding features to the existing core will only increase the existing performance issues. Without a serious update (latest DX, etc) and reworking of the core, I'm afraid I couldn't support this. Still, I'll wait to see the entire proposal before making my decision."


I'm with xplosys on this one.


Slenderman's Shadow - Sanatorium
http://forum.thegamecreators.com/?m=forum_view&t=199408&b=35
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GreenDixy
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Posted: 16th Oct 2012 15:28
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i would like to see something like Leadwerks the way there editor is setup in 3d mode being able to adjust the lights on the fly and move them in real time and the terrain editor setup im sure this one is on the list but better ai as i work with it in dbp i know there is alot more it can do then what fpsc has in it currently

======================================
My software never has bugs. It just develops random features.
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yrkoon
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Posted: 16th Oct 2012 15:35
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Infact, 32 Bit can physically address exactly 4GB, but, by standard, 32bit Windows will reserve half of that to itself, leaving us users with 2 GB. There is a /3GB switch in XP 32bit which will make Windows reserve only 1 GB to itself, leaving 3GB to play with to us

64 Bit can physically address 18,446,744,073,709,551,615 bytes
or about 1.845×10^19 bytes - otherwise known as 18.45 exabytes-, roughly
1800 million times the amount 32bit can address.

Nevertheless, Windows 7 64bit again will interfere with that number,
allowing "only" 16 GB for W7 Home Premium users (probably the most of us),
and forcing those who want to go beyond that barrier to use W7 Professional at least.

Lives of great men all remind us we may make our lives sublime
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Soviet176
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Posted: 16th Oct 2012 15:54
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No, the memory situation only needs to be optimized. Half the Unreal 3 games you play are nearly 3x the size of a FPSC game and double or triple that in media. They are only 32bit. The problem with FPSC is the way it handles memory, it isn't optimized at all.

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yrkoon
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Posted: 16th Oct 2012 16:25
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Quote: "No, the memory situation only needs to be optimized. Half the Unreal 3 games you play are nearly 3x the size of a FPSC game and double or triple that in media. They are only 32bit. The problem with FPSC is the way it handles memory, it isn't optimized at all."


Maybe true, but why waste time on 32bit "optimization" when ample memory space is already available with 64bit, and cheap, at that? There just may be totally different fields where optimizing seems way more useful.

Lives of great men all remind us we may make our lives sublime
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yrkoon
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Posted: 16th Oct 2012 16:38
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Quote: "I'm running Windows 7 Home Premium 64bit, and have 16GB of DDR3 Random
Access Memory.
Grrr, google chrome is using so much right now.. My pc is currently using 9.52GB of 16.4GB
(16366MB total, rounded to the nearest number, it's 16.4GB total..)"

So, you have a 16GB machine, and you are complaining that there is a program that is actually using that ram when it is available ? Why ?

Lives of great men all remind us we may make our lives sublime
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michael x
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Posted: 16th Oct 2012 16:42 Edited at: 16th Oct 2012 16:46
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@4125 I only meant no limit as far the 4gb. I know there is a limit. true everyone can upgrade their ram. but who willing to go that far. some people here still use 32bit windows.

as far the 64bit go i know this is not going to happen.

@Soviet176 i agree it some how needs to compress the texture map. I have been doing some testing and it the textures that eats the most memory. lightmap only bad when you have it higher than 20. no you would get those great sharp shadows but you will save a lot of memory.

I think the key is for fpsc to use 512 map and some how optimized quality. but on these terms I'll leave it up to TGC to figure it out.

for the fpscx11 people it not going to happen as well.if that could have then fpsc could be compatible with x9,x10,x11.but once again just x11 will force some people to upgrade to windows7.plus this may take a rewrite. trying cram everything in this already buggy program is given it a push to the code limit.

i will wait to see what happens on the list. but at this point I think they should just fix the bugs in after 120 and fix or add what little bit to 121. sorry im loosing hope on this.

more than what meets the eye

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da2020
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Posted: 16th Oct 2012 16:43
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Quote: "Maybe true, but why waste time on 32bit "optimization" when ample memory space is already available with 64bit, and cheap, at that? There just may be totally different fields where optimizing seems way more useful."
Look at it at a developers point of view, not everyone has a 64 bit system I know many people who still uses 32 bit systems.You can't expect everybody to upgrade to a 64 bit systems.
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michael x
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Posted: 16th Oct 2012 16:48
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@da2020 thank you I agree. someone with some since.

more than what meets the eye

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Scene Commander
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Posted: 16th Oct 2012 18:48 Edited at: 16th Oct 2012 18:52
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I personally think 64bit support would be a bit of a waste, as it would in many cases exclude a lot of users. Memory compression and better management would be a far better option.

That said, as there is no definitive list, this is all speculation at the moment, so I guess it's wait and see for everyone. As I've been lucky enough to see a WIP list, I don't think most people will be disappointed, but I guess that depends what makes it into the list of features in the end.

SC
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Ched80
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Posted: 16th Oct 2012 19:52
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Good to hear the progress with this. Sticking with DB Pro and re-writing is good with me. Especially as you can imagine the development time will be shorter than translating to AGK. It would be good to get some advance idea of what pledging levels TGC are thinking of so we can plan how much we need to fork out in November

I disagree with SC though. I think 64 bit support is a must since more and more people will move to 64 bit systems over the next few years.

FPSC-R could just have the option to develop in either 32/64-bit environments.

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Hockeykid
DBPro Tool Maker
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Posted: 16th Oct 2012 23:44
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Quote: "My concern is that simply adding features to the existing core will only increase the existing performance issues. Without a serious update (latest DX, etc) and reworking of the core, I'm afraid I couldn't support this."


I agree.

Sean

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Nigezu
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Posted: 16th Oct 2012 23:53
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In test game: Built-in support for higher resolutions than 1024x768, anisotrophic filtering and anti-aliasing. In built game give players "options" screen where they can change these preferences.

Overall stability of the engine must be improved. The editor and test builds are fairly stable as they are but weird things start to happen in built games. Levels won't load etc. Also, when building a game, the editor almost always crashes when I'm trying to edit title screen, global script etc. This can be worked around by editing the fpi files manually, but it can get rather frustrating.

Better lightmapping and dynamic shadows. Unreal engine 3-esque.

Memory fix and multicore support.

Segment system not bound in a grid. Maybe make to editor model based altogether. Like most professional modern day game development kits do. Free camera in addition to top-down view. Also include terrain and bigger maps.
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3D Game Maker 4 EVER
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Posted: 17th Oct 2012 00:20
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Quote: "Quote: "there is no limit to 64bit "

There is a limit. See here: http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/windows/desktop/aa366778(v=vs.85).aspx#physical_memory_limits_windows_7"

In MSCONFIG there was no cap set for me, maybe I'm confusing this with something else?
Gaah I gotta get windows 7 professional if I wanna use 32GB.

Quote: "Quote: "I'm running Windows 7 Home Premium 64bit, and have 16GB of DDR3 Random
Access Memory.
Grrr, google chrome is using so much right now.. My pc is currently using 9.52GB of 16.4GB
(16366MB total, rounded to the nearest number, it's 16.4GB total..)"
So, you have a 16GB machine, and you are complaining that there is a program that is actually using that ram when it is available ? Why ?
"

Because other programs take longer to open, it's like you double click a shortcut, nothing happens.. you do it 4 more times, and as soon as you close Chrome the program opens, 5 times...
And my computer get's generally slower when it uses more Random Access Memory.
What is this magical RAM btw? I never completely understood how Physical Memory works.. Is it like miniature highspeed hard drives? Like that of a Cache Drive?

ee Waka waka waka... Nevermore..
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Juzi
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Posted: 17th Oct 2012 02:03
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I personally think that you guys at TGC should invest some time and effort into something if you really want to make a product that sells alot. I honestly thought it would be obvious for us to wait atleast a year for the new FPSC when I said I could donate up to $500 or so. There's definitely no rush if the final product is the engine of our dreams. I too have to wait and see before I give my final verdict.

As for my top 3 features:

1. Performance and reliability

I don't mind if the engine can't handle the most photo realistic San Fransisco or Mount Everest ever created, but a major performance boost from this old engine is desperately needed. A very good first step would be the current map size cranked up with enemies, particles, objects and lights running with a solid fps of 60. Multiply that by 3 and remove the map size limit. Add a couple of indicators to tell the developer how much they can add objects before running out of juice and we've got ourselves a solid base.

Also the ability of building a final product that doesn't bug and crash all over the place is a must.

2. Better scripting

I've always found the current scripting language very clumsy. Why not add built-in script editor which comes with presets for casual users and the more experienced users can write their own scripts to make their game from scratch.

The scripting itself would be event based. So when something is triggered by something, it happens. For example: You add a soldier entity into your level with no AI or anything else whatsoever. We click him and select something like "event editor". A blank screen appears. There's an option to add a preset so let's select "Enemy AI." Now we have one line saying "preset: Enemy AI" Now we'll add our own small portion of script by clicking and adding or alternatively typing in commands. Let's decide there's a command called "playerwithinrange = X". So we put a value in some measurement, like meters and press OK. Then we add an outcome. In this example let's pretend we've created a script called "Soldier_melee" in the past and add that in. So now the blank screen few moments ago would look something like this:

0001. Preset: Enemy AI
0002. if playerwithinrange = 1.5 then Soldier_melee

Of course this melee system could be included in the AI itself but this was just for the sake of the example.

I'm not sure if you grasped my idea as it's pretty hard to explain, yet easy to understand. Nevertheless, this system allows the user to make their game unique with fair speed and effectiveness.

3. New way of constructing the environment

I'm not asking for a built-in model editor, but creating the outline of a level could use a simplified version of this. Ability to draw walls, ceilings, windows and varying terrain with your own hands. For walls the editor could allow you to draw a rectangle, circle, freeshape etc. and then automatically create a mesh out of it. Then you can extrude it the way you see fit. Right clicking would bring up the familiar menus with texture and material options as an addition. Making holes and windows would simply go like this: Draw an area you want to be deleted or modified. Of course the editor would need a some sort of improved snapping system too, so that adding ceilings, floors and other components wouldn't be pain in the backside.

Terrain building would go with similar fashion with added options to import a generated black and white image.

That is all, thanks.
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D0MINIK
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Posted: 17th Oct 2012 02:10 Edited at: 17th Oct 2012 02:22
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Must-Have:

• Multi Core Support plus better performance

Nice-To-Have:

• Scaling models live in editor
• Lighting in editor or at least some quick preview
• Dynamic entities using same lighting as static entities and segments
• Directional Lights

Probably-Hard-To-Achieve-But-Even-Nicer-To-Have:

• State of the Art graphics
- Depth of Field (standard, not optional, high quality, adjustable)
- Dynamic Real Time Shadows (as standard)
- Time of Day and Weather/Environment System

• Fully Scriptable Multiplayer

• Web Access for High Score etc.

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LeeBamber
TGC Lead Developer
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Posted: 17th Oct 2012 02:42
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Hi Guys and Gals,

To do a 64-bit version of FPSC means we need a 64-bit version of DBP which means adding another 6 months to the development. Add that to the Kickstarter goal, and the project will probably not get the required funding. Instead, my plan is to make better use of the 2GB we do have using a few techniques that might work. Resetting the virtual memory block before starting the light-mapping should give us another 1GB to play with, and segmenting the build process further can increase this to as much as 4GB. I've also got faster level loading high on the list, as well as performance improvements through the use of a more advanced culling system and multi-core physics engine. I completely agree that more features are for naught if it makes the game play slower. The goal will be to have these extra features AND get 60 fps across the board. I think with a full team on the project, we can achieve this easily. Technical hurdles aside, if we can make the games bigger, build quicker, run faster and do more for the player, we'll have a winning product.

Hogging the awesome since 1999
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cds1234
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Posted: 17th Oct 2012 03:39
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Maintain full directx 9.0c compatibility if desired in game.
Fix Video play crash.
Increase map size.
Realistic movement in walking visualization.
Dynamic shadows
Perhaps new game-style templates to handle scripting ideas that wouldn't occur to the average point-click developer-
like using trigger, variable, ifused, and other logic for rpg, adventure, hide/seek, item transformation- things that can appear very complex in visualization but very easy to do with basic scripting knowledge- but major challenge for those not good at scripting
Instant custom advanced menu design.
Custom information flow build save-state- to save the build-game progress of a large multi-level game in progress.
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Flatlander
FPSC Tool Maker
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Posted: 17th Oct 2012 04:13
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I'm OK with it not going to a combination of 32bit and 64 bit. Most applications are still 32 bit and some very large ones at that. It is a matter of memory management; especially if VM has to be used. Lee had talked about this sometime ago with me but because he was working exclusively on AppGameKit he didn't want to spend the time working on a better memory management system for VM. So, now that Lee is committed to work on this, I believe it will happen. However, unless some other things are addressed we still may end up with needing VM that is larger than 2GB. We will have to wait and see. For those with 64 bit machines that will be no problem as we can at least get another 2GB with a patch.

I can see concerns regarding just adding features. I don't believe that this is all that it will be. I am sure that there is going to be some heavy modifications to the core and very likely a better physics implemented. The Dark Physics library is already in place to use as it was added some time ago.

I think all this should take is one more paid programmer for this project (whether temporary or not) along with Lee and Rick. Neither one of them are no slackers when it comes to programming so I believe something very exciting is going to happen with FPSC Reloaded.

The past has a lot of memories to hold onto; but, today is chock full of new adventures, and, the future shouts out, "The best is yet to come!" -- TerryC
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michael x
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Posted: 17th Oct 2012 05:19 Edited at: 17th Oct 2012 06:07
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@LeeBamber wow sound like you have an ideal on how this will work so i guess ill drop the whole 64bit ideal. after that being said there more to say. i think it best to leave the ideals up to you and rick.

but one thing Lee you and rick need to look into the 64bit compatibility of fpsc. for some reason I have notice that fpsc use more memory in the 64bit than it use on a 32bit. this is one of the reason I was wanting 64bit. thinking it will be more compatible with 64bit windows. I have ran the same level test on my 32bit system. did not change one thing. I notice one the 64bit it will take sometimes a 100 more megabytes than the 32bit. this issue need to fix. because if some makes a game and that level takes close to the memory cap. that same level could cause the game to crash on the 64bit system.

now just like we cant expect everyone to upgrade also cant expect everyone to down grade.lucky for me I own both but I expect my 32bit go before my 64bit.lol

so with that being said stability is my most concern for the new fpscR. this what I want most from fpscR

I also agree with getting 60fps is a must for the performance. this why I never really care for a graphic upgrade of feature i believe that fpscR needs a strong performance upgrade to handle all those feature. these are the most two things fpsc lack for years. as a developer Im will to compromise with the ideal of with the fpscR ideal. this may turn out better then we all think. thank you Lee and Rick for this opportunity to allow us to have a voice on fpscR.

more than what meets the eye

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Flatlander
FPSC Tool Maker
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Posted: 17th Oct 2012 05:30
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Yes, stability AND consistency.

The past has a lot of memories to hold onto; but, today is chock full of new adventures, and, the future shouts out, "The best is yet to come!" -- TerryC
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3D Game Maker 4 EVER
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Posted: 17th Oct 2012 06:13
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I've got a great idea!
Crosshair editor
Import your own images (Preferably PNG, BMP, DDS, TGA, JPG, etc...)
Animated crosshairs (Importing multiple images, so you can have the PBJTime guy dancing as your crosshair, and also choose the highlight crosshair (Which is when your crosshair is on the enemy and it changes to red, or maybe even play an animation of it tightening, or maybe the crosshair turns into a turtle, I don't know.. I just like full control of what the game looks like, the atmosphere, etc.. for example: Futuristic setting, might as well have a futuristic crosshair to go alongside it!)
And maybe even if the crosshair is in the game, like maybe an entity resembling a guy holding up a sign with a crosshair and a hole in it to see what you're shooting, just trying to come up with ideas.
Maybe even a depth crosshair, ever played Stalker: Shadow of Chernobyl? Switch to the Binoculars and look at something close to you, and then look at the sky.
And how about maybe having that entity-based crosshair emit light or something? Or attach a hurt zone to it and hover it on enemies?

ee Waka waka waka... Nevermore..
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4125
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Posted: 17th Oct 2012 07:07
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Quote: "but who willing to go that far. some people here still use 32bit windows."


While it's fine that people have 32Bit windows, you could still have at least 3GB of RAM. An extra 1GB can make all the difference in the world.

IIRC, upgrading to a 64bit O/S isn't that costly. Especially if you are able to get the upgrade to windows 8 for that $15 price tag (Although I don't recommend it)

The way I see it, it's nearing the end of 2012. Cell phones have 1GB and are now cracking the 2GB wall. Why does you PC not have 4GB
of RAM at a time, where they are so cheap and easy to get? Nearly every PC for sale has 4GBs of memory. While I can understand not everybody can or need the 4GBs but if your into game development like with FPSC, what are you doing with a system like that anyway?

Quote: "My concern is that simply adding features to the existing core will only increase the existing performance issues. Without a serious update (latest DX, etc) and reworking of the core, I'm afraid I couldn't support this. Still, I'll wait to see the entire proposal before making my decision."


Exactly.

Quote: "I've also got faster level loading high on the list, as well as performance improvements through the use of a more advanced culling system and multi-core physics engine."


Quote: "Technical hurdles aside, if we can make the games bigger, build quicker, run faster and do more for the player, we'll have a winning product."


Pretty much.

Quote: "Yes, stability AND consistency."


Just what I wanted.

Intel Core i5 3570, Nvidia Gefocre GTX 560 OC 1024MB, 16GB RAM, P8H77-M Pro, Windows 7 Home Premium x64
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michael x
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Posted: 17th Oct 2012 11:28 Edited at: 17th Oct 2012 11:32
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@4125 I have both 32bit and 64bit pc.


Quote: "While it's fine that people have 32Bit windows, you could still have at least 3GB of RAM. An extra 1GB can make all the difference in the world.

IIRC, upgrading to a 64bit O/S isn't that costly. Especially if you are able to get the upgrade to windows 8 for that $15 price tag (Although I don't recommend it)

The way I see it, it's nearing the end of 2012. Cell phones have 1GB and are now cracking the 2GB wall. Why does you PC not have 4GB
of RAM at a time, where they are so cheap and easy to get? Nearly every PC for sale has 4GBs of memory. While I can understand not everybody can or need the 4GBs but if your into game development like with FPSC, what are you doing with a system like that anyway?"



so by you saying that you are speaking to the people on here who only have a 32bit pc.people on here are from around the world and not every country is like the US.

Quote: "but who willing to go that far. some people here still use 32bit windows"


so I said and I quote myself Im talking about those who might not be willing to do that for this software because of there own life style or for there own reason not to.

years ago fpscx10 was release and yet no one was ready for such a high performance software. this was the upgrade to fpsc before mods started to release these great features to fpscx9.fpscx10 had everything that most people here wanted for fpscx9. but because of the down fall of vista and the lack of support this upgrade crash and burn. still today those who have this powerful software know if fpscR could run from fpscx10 it would become something close to what everyone is asking here now.one of the things like desktop resolution fpscx10 can match that.but my point to that is not many people here could support it or did not care to upgrade so they can use it. even with window7 which can run dx10 as well some still stayed with there windows xp. so yes I dont blame TGC for not trying to take this beyond DX9 and so on. its all about what everyone here can support.but that was years ago and I have notice a lot 64bit support over the years. so only time can tell that maybe one day TGC will change DBP to support 64bit but as far fpscR go it not going to happen. I understand that this takes time and money to create the masterpiece software of the fpsc we want use. but for right now we have to make due on what we have and what we can get as a upgrade like fpscR. i for one can not ask for more than what Im willing to spend on this. because if that's the case we all would have upgrade our pc for fpscx10 and been using that.so what we ask for out of fpscR it needs to be things that is more important and that make since to make the software better. right now Lee is on the right track about this. which is memory cap and performance. the rest shall follow after that.

more than what meets the eye

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Soviet176
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Posted: 17th Oct 2012 16:03
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Quote: "To do a 64-bit version of FPSC means we need a 64-bit version of DBP which means adding another 6 months to the development. Add that to the Kickstarter goal, and the project will probably not get the required funding. Instead, my plan is to make better use of the 2GB we do have using a few techniques that might work. Resetting the virtual memory block before starting the light-mapping should give us another 1GB to play with, and segmenting the build process further can increase this to as much as 4GB. I've also got faster level loading high on the list, as well as performance improvements through the use of a more advanced culling system and multi-core physics engine. I completely agree that more features are for naught if it makes the game play slower. The goal will be to have these extra features AND get 60 fps across the board. I think with a full team on the project, we can achieve this easily. Technical hurdles aside, if we can make the games bigger, build quicker, run faster and do more for the player, we'll have a winning product."


Lee, the memory problems comes with the way that FPSC loads the map and all its media into one fat static entity. This entire system needs to be re-done. Even doing the light map editions you just mentioned it will still use up that other GB of memory with out much trouble. The way media is used needs to be dynamic. This is how other engines do it. The current system now is like taking 50 people cramming them into a duffle bag and when you the time is right opening it and watching people blast out of the bag. All that junk is loaded into memory and stays there. The team could probably even optimize this system more if you didn't want to touch it that much. Even the .dbo system isn't good enough.

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science boy
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Posted: 17th Oct 2012 16:59 Edited at: 17th Oct 2012 17:08
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well i am sticking with x10 in this case, it is running well for me. unless the upgrade is phenomenally better than x10 on speed graphics etc. then no joy. although the achilles heel in me would be a larger playing area. if it doubles in area play i will have no choice but to putt in. dam it!

i honestly think though, if it becomes x11, then all can use it, plus all the tricks of x11 instancing etc. to make it manage performance better he has a winner, dbpro x11 elite would be just awesome and i will certainly put in if using that. i just hope they do a survey to see how many are on windows7 and how many are on xp, this will surely make it more clear to tgc where they will gain or lose,

an unquenchable thirst for knowledge of game creation!!!
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Zona Servicios
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Posted: 17th Oct 2012 17:53 Edited at: 17th Oct 2012 17:57
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A good one would be an FPS Creator that deploy to iOS, Android, Mac...

Roberto A. Berrospe Machin, Ruta Internet.
http://www.rutainternet.com.uy
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srealist
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Posted: 17th Oct 2012 17:57
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Most of what needs to be said has already been said here. I agree with all of Science Boy's comments.

I really hope that there are no concessions made for Windows XP. It can't be had both ways. You can not expect a more powerful engine with modern features to work on an operating system that, in computer time, is ancient history. If it were in my hands, I would push to have an engine that utilized the power of the best gaming computers and graphics cards available today.

If you find yourself feeling the need to make a game that can play on 10 year old machines, you really shouldn't be looking for this product to do it. This is all just my opinion and is not intended to offend anyone.

May I ask, what version of DX will be implemented?
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TheK
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Posted: 17th Oct 2012 18:03 Edited at: 17th Oct 2012 18:04
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Hey there,

Quote: "Lee, the memory problems comes with the way that FPSC loads the map and all its media into one fat static entity. This entire system needs to be re-done."


Finally someone is getting the real problem with the memory usage. The universe system is a technique of the past and for really low memory usage it would need to be replaced by a new system that is streaming most of the stuff that you use in the level, which may be a quite difficult task, but it would bring FPSC to never-seen capabilities.

Quote: "May I ask, what version of DX will be implemented?"


As Lee and his team won't be rewriting the Dark Basic Pro engine, you'll only see DirectX 9.

Greetings,
Jan

Skype name: thek491
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srealist
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Posted: 17th Oct 2012 18:11 Edited at: 17th Oct 2012 18:14
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Quote: "As Lee and his team won't be rewriting the Dark Basic Pro engine, you'll only see DirectX 9. "


I assumed as much though I find that disappointing. I would rather see x10 be resumed but I have a strong personal bias I must concede.

But then reality sets in:
FPS Creator X10 has been discontinued and is no longer available for purchase.
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science boy
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Posted: 17th Oct 2012 18:16 Edited at: 17th Oct 2012 18:22
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but lee as all the parts needed to do an x11, he has a lot of code from x10 and x9

make a new x11 core engine and just add the needed bits take all the best from both engines and make a few tweaks then you have x11, would that not work?

although this is just me, i often make games and things, scrap them then start a new project and take the best bits from the others to make the best single project, and disposing of the unwanted. this also makes for a clean and more organized version.

but i aint a coder so i may be talking from where the sun dont shine!

anyway its food for thought

x9 is well dated, microsoft are ending it or have ended support, man they nearly on x12

xp
vista
w7
w8
surely its time to advance. anyone still on xp have probably still got a tune in monitor with a green screen

an unquenchable thirst for knowledge of game creation!!!
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michael x
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Posted: 17th Oct 2012 18:42 Edited at: 17th Oct 2012 18:47
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everyone really needs to watch the youtube videos on dx9 vs dx11. the small different between the two is a joke in a way. you do get some what of better high-res graphics but that it. when they update dx9 they update the graphic compatibility to. PC games today still use dx9. x11 like x10 was a enhancement. yes in ways it maybe better but dx9 is not far from it.think of DX as a console on your PC like XBOX or PS.DX11 is like the next gen console showing what type of graphic the next xbox or PS can do.but in PC world DX9 is not a dead console and can still do what DX11 can do. fpsc is just a game engine
like UDK. UDK support both x9 and x11. nothing support x10 anymore. it would been great if fpscx10 could have been converted to DX11 and then migrate from there. but using DX9 is not a big deal and that's not what holding fpsc back. like I said it's a good business choice for TGC to go this route. because there less likely there will be a lack of support with DX9.

more than what meets the eye

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srealist
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Posted: 17th Oct 2012 19:47
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Thanks for the insight, michael x. Always appreciate your input and experience. I've seen a bit of this in my own lab where we used OGRE3D for the last 6 years. There was a lot of debate here about trying to support x11 but ultimately the graphics programmers were able to implement many of the features of x11 into our x9 pipeline.

I guess I just haven't quite seen that with FPSCx9. Though there have been a number of improvements and certainly there are features in FPSCx9 that don't exist in x10 - especially where particle effects and shaders are involved. Yet still, with all the quality settings maxed out I've never been able to reproduce a scene in FPSCx9 that match the overall visual quality of x10. I know I am speaking in rather subjective terms but I would guess you understand what I am talking about having used both engines.

Then, of course, there are the outdoor levels. I've created some gorgeous outdoor levels in x10 that I could never ever even consider attempting in x9.

If the plan is correct for these differences and give us an engine with higher quality graphics, performance, and be, somehow, less buggy, then I will be very happy. Since, x10 was cancelled and Mystic Mod sidelined, I have not worked in 3D. I miss it and I spent a good 18 months at about 80 hours per week working in and learning x10. Would be nice to be able to return to FPSC.

Cheers,
Darin
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3D Game Maker 4 EVER
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Posted: 17th Oct 2012 20:14
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Quote: "A good one would be an FPS Creator that deploy to iOS, Android, Mac... "

DEFINITELY FOR ANDROID
There's this console coming out called the Ouya, not sure anyone has ever heard of it..
Anyways it's android based..

ee Waka waka waka... Nevermore..
youtube . com/-->/watch?v=rIX_6TBeph0
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TheK
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Posted: 17th Oct 2012 20:49 Edited at: 17th Oct 2012 20:51
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Quote: "A good one would be an FPS Creator that deploy to iOS, Android, Mac..."


That would be actually a pretty nice addition, but it would be really hard to get FPS Creator working on mobile devices, since Dark Basic is Windows-only (correct me if I'm wrong) and even Nvidia's Tegra 3 wouldn't be capable of displaying an FPSC game in it's full glory while maintaining the constant smooth framerate that a desktop graphics chip/graphics card can. The mobile graphics chips have a too low bandwidth. Even if the Tegra 3 has clocks of about 1.4 to 1.5GHz and has four cores. Still because the die of the chips and their architecture can't be so extensively used as with desktop cards, you get a really much lower performance from the mobile GPU's.

Also Lee and his team would have to build in much, much more code to get FPS Creator (or even DBPro) working on other OS than Windows, which would result in even more needless lines, even more chaos in the code and that would result in less chances to modify and in less performance, because DBPro actually is a pretty slow engine when it comes to work with much code.

Greetings,
Jan

Skype name: thek491
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Pain
FPSC Reloaded TGC Backer
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Posted: 17th Oct 2012 21:00
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Number 1:

the reloaded must have better preformance before I even think of supporting it. No more crashing with a generic error message. No mare of the annoying memory cap after spending hours on building a map and finding out... Oh you hit the mem cap. YOU LOST!

But that is my number one "want" in the reload.

If its not there, then I will not be there.

Pain

Me = noob

and i love The TGC : )
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michael x
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Posted: 17th Oct 2012 21:56
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@srealist you should fpscx9 out for your self. It has many improvement since then. you can create that out sense without slow down. plus v120 looking good on performance. like fpscx10 you can get 140 fps but it stay stable at 90 fps.I had to drop fpscx10 because a bug that had no work around. but graphic is not everything and that what not going to make the game. right now im sticking with 118 because it more stable and the 60 fps are great.

@pain there will always be a memory cap. as a game developer you have to figure out ways around it.

@science boy it's time to let go buddy.time to move on and give fpcx9 a try. if still dont like it you can always go back. but development time is being wasted on a dead console.

Quote: "A good one would be an FPS Creator that deploy to iOS, Android, Mac"


it would be but that what AppGameKit is for.


as for the memory cap in fpsc now. large texture maps take a lot of memory. any DDS that is larger then 512KB will eat away and this is without light map. there are ways around it but you all have to be willing compromise.

more than what meets the eye

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4125
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Posted: 17th Oct 2012 22:25
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Quote: "I have both 32bit and 64bit pc."


And? That means nothing really.

Quote: "so I said and I quote myself Im talking about those who might not be willing to do that for this software because of there own life style or for there own reason not to."


And I was saying, if your into game development (Like FPSC), get a PC that is capable. Mostly on the CPU and RAM side.

I'm not forcing anybody to do that. If they don't want to, then so be it. But they would benefit better if they do.

Quote: "so by you saying that you are speaking to the people on here who only have a 32bit pc.people on here are from around the world and not every country is like the US."


What does me being in the US have to do with people upgrading their RAM? RAM is cheap pretty much everywhere. For the areas that they are not, then they are not. It's not like they cost an arm and leg to get them.

Quote: "everyone really needs to watch the youtube videos on dx9 vs dx11. the small different between the two is a joke in a way. you do get some what of better high-res graphics but that it."


This is true to some extent. There isn't too much of a difference between the two graphics wise to really implement it into FPSC. But performance wise it could be slightly different but again not by much.

Quote: "A good one would be an FPS Creator that deploy to iOS, Android, Mac..."


For Mac, Yes there should be a Mac version. For iOS and Android. Maybe not. I think that would be jumping a tad too far. Factor in the many different devices FPSC would have to run in. So pretty much only tablets would be able to pull it off and even at that I think there would be some sort of limitation. It would be cool to have the map editor by itself be on a tablet or something, then port the map on the PC to build it. But then again, what's the point? You might as well have a laptop for that (albeit a rather powerful one IF FPSC get's updated the way it seems to be).

Intel Core i5 3570, Nvidia Gefocre GTX 560 OC 1024MB, 16GB RAM, P8H77-M Pro, Windows 7 Home Premium x64
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Pain
FPSC Reloaded TGC Backer
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Posted: 17th Oct 2012 22:29
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@ michael x

I was saying that the Cap needs to be larger.

not a small anoyingly sized 2GB

Me = noob

and i love The TGC : )
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michael x
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Posted: 17th Oct 2012 23:37
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@Pain yes I understand that we all want that. but one way or another we will meet that limit and it will be annoying as ever. believe me I hate it just as much as you do.

@4125 dont take what im saying the wrong way. all I mean is some people here are not willing to do that. I am not talking about myself. both my sc are strong and my 64bit is just as strong as yours.not everyone from around the world is this lucky. plus you want to be able to develop a game that everyone can play. this what makes consoles so easy to develop for.I understand you are not forcing anyone to upgrade but the same go for TGC they want to do this the way that makes it easy on everyone else to be compatible to using the software. so please understand my words of reasoning.if you quote you me again I will reply and just take as you cant understand what I am saying. so good luck to you when using a game engine.

more than what meets the eye

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srealist
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Posted: 18th Oct 2012 00:37
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@michael x, I've installed FPSCx9 on my new Alienware-beast-of-a-machine-tower and have been playing around a bit. I've got an assignment to make a simulation for the Royal Canadian Mounted Police and I think I will use x9 for this purpose. It's a pain to have to reinstall all the model packs for x9 but that's just me being lazy.

Thanks again for your posts.
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science boy
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Posted: 18th Oct 2012 01:01
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@ michael x, i hear you dude, but x11 is what i was aiming for not x10. x9 is bug infested, i cant see at the moment how the initial engine can be improved without a rewrite, and if a rewrite then why not x11 with the instancing etc. which is a trick to add a hell of a lot more etc. i played with the new x9 and to be honest still not as good, i aint being bias, i was open minded, but the none sliders and the engine seemed a lot slower with an equal dungeon made in both, the graphics seemed a less sleek version. i again aint arguing or not letting go, i am merely saying if i am going to fund something before its been made i want assurance it aint like its been for the last 4 years, betas and updates to reveal more betas and updates, and still it lacks the amazing advancements ( or so it seems ) than x10 has, ok you can add more features etc which is cool, but looking at the forums on the x9 version shows that particle effects etc eat the memory etc. so as i was attempting to say, i will stick with my engine i have and see what tgc offer on the reloaded, but i aint putting money into something i would not use. but i will see what is put forth.

an unquenchable thirst for knowledge of game creation!!!
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michael x
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Posted: 18th Oct 2012 01:46 Edited at: 18th Oct 2012 01:48
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@srealist I hear man it can be a pain to start back over.but I hope its works out for you. good luck. hope some wip from you.


@science boy that's cool man at least you gave it a try.do what feel right for you. I believe fpscR will turn out better. I just understand where Lee is coming from on this ideal.hope to see some more wip you too. good luck buddy.

by the way the stock hands work in fpscx10. so dont delete your fpscx9 without backing those up.

more than what meets the eye

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4125
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Posted: 18th Oct 2012 02:07
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Quote: "dont take what im saying the wrong way. all I mean is some people here are not willing to do that. I am not talking about myself. both my sc are strong and my 64bit is just as strong as yours.not everyone from around the world is this lucky. plus you want to be able to develop a game that everyone can play. this what makes consoles so easy to develop for.I understand you are not forcing anyone to upgrade but the same go for TGC they want to do this the way that makes it easy on everyone else to be compatible to using the software. so please understand my words of reasoning.if you quote you me again I will reply and just take as you cant understand what I am saying."


Nobody is taking it the wrong way. And I understood perfectly where you were coming from. You don't need a PC even close to mine thanks to TGC. But with that being said, if this update applies, 4GB of RAM may be needed. I was explaining the fact on how easy it is to upgrade to 4GB RAM only. Not the entire PC itself. It is 2012. The time to upgrade your RAM should have came.

Still, the RAM on FPSC as of now wouldn't really matter to much. It's when the update comes into light that it may matter.

Enough with the RAM crap as we're getting nowhere with it. Just gonna agree and stick to what xplosys stated. This engine needs a re-write IMO. I believe TGC has enough time in the past to re-write it. But whatever the case maybe, if FPSC runs stably and smooth. I'm in. The massive amount of problems in FPSC is getting out of hand. One thing is fixed, and another problem comes in...

Intel Core i5 3570, Nvidia Gefocre GTX 560 OC 1024MB, 16GB RAM, P8H77-M Pro, Windows 7 Home Premium x64
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Black Profductions
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Posted: 18th Oct 2012 03:48
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I think the more important of all the features that we as a comunnity want is a solid engine, the engine has a load of memory leaks as it is. If you continue adding features without fixing the base it will continue being the buggy fps creator we all know with more features

Cheers,

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michael x
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Posted: 18th Oct 2012 05:27
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@Black Profductions i agree that you said is so true. i feel the memory has a leak form over the time of added features.119 go it bad.but I cant what for November to see how this will turn out.

more than what meets the eye

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The Nerevar
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Posted: 18th Oct 2012 13:43
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Why not use the X10 source code, replace the x9 code, then build on from there?

Fulfilling the Nerevarine Prophecy, one trial at a time, because I... Am... The Nerevar!
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Pain
FPSC Reloaded TGC Backer
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Posted: 18th Oct 2012 15:05
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@ michael x

As long as the cap is larger then the 2GB I will be happy. Even if its 1MB larger... YES 1 MB its larger then 2000MB.. . IT would be a step in the correct direction.

Me = noob

and i love The TGC : )
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Zigi
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Posted: 18th Oct 2012 15:34
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This is my list of features I would like to see in FPSC Reloaded:

-bigger map size
-built in terrain editor or support to import and use terrain
-possibility to rotate and scale objects inside the editor
-a way to easily import custom 3D models and apply physics to them like gravity,collision type...etc
-built in custom segment editor
-vehicle system (car,boat,helicopter) for player and NPC's
-destructible segments
-projector support to use videos as textures,maybe it called something else
-would be nice to have a chance to use a "body" under FP camera,similar like in Fenix MOD or Planet Calypso in FP view.
-better shadows,don't have to be real time but have to be nice at least
-DarkShader support or built in Shader editor
-Linux support built on Wine

Wine is a free and open source Windows compatibility layer (not emulator) for Linux.
It works very nice with many Windows games and apps.It can be worth it and won't take much effort if Lee could officially support Wine to run FPSC Reloaded games or the entire development environment on Linux using Wine.
He can also redistribute Wine and create a custom Wine launcher for FPSC.Other developers do the same for example Fallen Earth

If TGC comes up with these features on KickStarter I'm going to support it for sure.
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michael x
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Posted: 18th Oct 2012 16:32 Edited at: 18th Oct 2012 17:57
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@The Nerevar i was thinking the same thing but the dx10 pipeline might get in the way.lol


@Pain lol 1mb? I want the 4gb like everyone else that why I said there should be a 64bit version. but beings that not going to happen because DBP does not have a 64bit version. that will be the only way it will work.and yes the only way because I dont believe in a patch that might do more bad then good.plue 32bit can only read up to 3gb installed.that 1gb have to be reserve for windows.32bit is outdated and just no enough for software like this. so to complain about the 2gb limit is pointless or to have 4gb of ram for this software. it windows 32bit is limit to that and that it. but maybe in the future TGC will rewrite DBP to 64bit and make fpsc64. but for right now it not going to happen and I understand why. WE all have to look at how other game developers can still work with 32bit. their level are 10 time larger then ours and yet memory cap is not stopping them from development.so I believe with fpscR Lee will fix the leak the cause all this memory to be lost. plus I find it wired when you put one block and a player marker it take up 500mb of memory for whatever reason.if that 500mb could be come within 100mb or less. that will give us so much more space. our memory needs to be reserve so how.this why I say light map is not the big problem because that's without it.

more than what meets the eye

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