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Geek Culture / 19 year old kid locked up in jail for sarcastic joke.

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KeithC
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Posted: 10th Jul 2013 19:51
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Obese; I'll go into later on, when I get back from work.

-Keith

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Libervurto
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Posted: 10th Jul 2013 19:54
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Quote: "Don't you all just wish that something like the Minority Report was real and that people could be locked up for Pre-Crime?
Society would be safe and even if mistakes happen in say 0.1% of the time, this would be OK as that is the price of a Safety for the rest of the 99.9% of Society."

Are you being sarcastic? The Minority Report was a warning against the evils of totalitarianism.

Quote: "I didn't say it's funny. I just said just because you don't find the joke funny, doesn't mean you can lock someone up, no matter how sick or twisted it is. Under the law then maybe yes you can, but that's a really silly law."

Precisely, I find too often when having these discussions people seem to be more concerned about what the law states rather than what is right or wrong.
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Quik
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Posted: 10th Jul 2013 19:58
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Quote: "Precisely, I find too often when having these discussions people seem to be more concerned about what the law states rather than what is right or wrong."


what is right or wrong is not set in stone. Everyone believes differently as to what is right and what is wrong, and many people - often tends to agree that the law is right. while others - see it differently.



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xplosys
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Posted: 10th Jul 2013 19:59
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Again, I throw this out to some here (no one in particular) who seem to think that no crime was committed because he actually didn't carry out the threat. The threat was the crime. It is a crime to threaten others with bodily injury. Law is the law and the facts are the facts. Whether or not the threat was "real" or a "joke" is up for debate, but we know that it was made.

Can we stop with the "paranoia" and "loss of freedom" kind of posts. That's not what's happening here. The law was broken and it's being investigated. Complain about the timeline if you like, but don't give this guy a pass on the law because you don't like the law or in your mind/heart you don't think he was serious. In reality, that doesn't even matter. It's a felony to make the threat, joking or not.

If you don't like the law, work to change it, but don't diss the people who uphold it to protect you.

I am the underground.
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Quik
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Posted: 10th Jul 2013 20:05 Edited at: 10th Jul 2013 20:06
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Quote: "The law was broken and it's being investigated."




.............. for 6 months..............
.............. while in jail..............

Quote: "If you don't like the law, work to change it, but don't diss the people who uphold it to protect you."


right, I dont feel that that guy, who this thread is about, is being protected - In case he had no intentions.



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xplosys
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Posted: 10th Jul 2013 20:09
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Ever feel like you're beating your head against a wall?

The threat was the crime.

He is a criminal. Forget the intentions. Doesn't matter except to the heart.

I am the underground.
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Quik
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Posted: 10th Jul 2013 20:13
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Quote: "The threat was the crime.

He is a criminal. Forget the intentions. Doesn't matter except to the heart."


I am not feeling protected.

I find it hard to not dim police men who - in my opinion, are doing their job the lazy way, and are not - in fact protecting me. I do not feel protected, if the police are running off - jailing random people who are POTENTIALLY joking or being silly on the internet.



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xplosys
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Posted: 10th Jul 2013 20:18
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Would it help if I hugged you?

I am the underground.
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Quik
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Posted: 10th Jul 2013 20:20
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probably a little bit, hugs are quite nice.



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mr_d
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Posted: 10th Jul 2013 20:22 Edited at: 10th Jul 2013 20:24
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@OBese87
Quote: "Are you being sarcastic?"
can't you tell from edit comment?
I'm actually more on your side in this debate than the opposing position.

@xplosys
wanted to quote some of your post but my copy and paste is acting up for some unknown reason...
anyway, there is the Law, and there is the Spirit of the Law (as well as the apparent option/ability to ignore the Law; one e.g. is jaywalking in which I'd say only 0.001% of violations are followed up, so even though millions upon millions of people violate the law, nothing happens...
Also, is it a threat when you talk in generalities or only specifically when talking about bodily harm?
The "paranoia" and "loss of freedom" is a concern as it is already happening (for speech), and as they say, it's not paranoia if they are really after you....

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rolfy
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Posted: 10th Jul 2013 20:24 Edited at: 10th Jul 2013 20:29
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Quote: "Well all I can say is, I'm glad to live in a country where there's no fear of being locked up for making a sarcastic, passing remark, without hope of a quick trial or compensation for being wrongly imprisoned without evidence."
France has the same steps in place just as all of Europe and the States has Benjamin, maybe it all just slipped by you.
Council of Europe Convention on the Prevention of Terrorism
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Council_of_Europe_Convention_on_the_Prevention_of_Terrorism
Normally yes it can take up to a year to go to trial but actually holding till trial depends on the offense. There are certain limits on holding before charging but when it comes to terrorist offences, (and yes threatening to shoot up a school falls under this) then these rights are thrown out and it's unlikely that anything will be released publicly till investigated fully.

For the last time I am going to point out that we are all making assumptions:
1:No one here seems to have a clue what was actually said.
2:His parents said he was joking and seem to have no idea of what he actually posted either.

You reckon he was joking and I have yet to see anything proving he even claimed that, and no one here by saying it over and over again will make it so.

Anyone who thinks they live in a country unlikely to have these kind of problems is deluded, I can think of such incidents at least that stick out in the UK and Dunblane stands up as the worst.
With most of the perps in these sort of incidents its always been the case that they flew right under the radar and are only seen to be deranged after the incident, previous to that they were seen as quite normal in their community's or at least of no threat. Perhaps whats happening here is a lesson learned for both authority who really should act before incidents occur and eejits who post threats thinking no one will do anything about it.

For all I know he did intend to go through with it, if he didn't and thought it was some way to get a point across then lesson learned for those like him. I may have said if he's completely innocent it all seems a bit harsh but I am actually coming round to thinking how offensive and hurtful such remarks must seem to those who have lost people to such incidents and I think they should definitely hold him for another six months just for good measure.
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Quik
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Posted: 10th Jul 2013 20:26
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Quote: "You reckon he was joking and I have yet to see anything proving he even claimed that, and no one here by saying it over and over again will make it so."


we have no proof regarding the opposite either, that he really had the slightest mind on attempting it.



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TheComet
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Posted: 10th Jul 2013 20:27
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When will it go into all of your heads? Mate, this bloke obviously has a growth disorder. He's definitely not 19. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hybrid_growth_disorders

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Quik
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Posted: 10th Jul 2013 20:29
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Quote: "When will it go into all of your heads? Mate, this bloke obviously has a growth disorder. He's definitely not 19"


aaaaaaaand what you're getting at is.........?



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rolfy
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Posted: 10th Jul 2013 20:32 Edited at: 10th Jul 2013 20:33
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Quote: "we have no proof regarding the opposite either, that he really had the slightest mind on attempting it."

Well stop going on about this being an injustice as he was just joking. For most here it seems to be set in concrete and they have no real clue what they are defending.
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Dark Java Dude 64
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Posted: 10th Jul 2013 20:33
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Quote: "The threat was the crime.

He is a criminal. Forget the intentions. Doesn't matter except to the heart.
"
Now tell me: if he simply said, "I'm going to kill you," would that still be a crime?
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xplosys
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Posted: 10th Jul 2013 20:33
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Quote: "wanted to quote some of your post but my copy and paste is acting up for some unknown reason"


It's OK. I already read what I wrote.

I don't think anyone here actually thinks that this guy would have carried out a mass killing or ate kids organs, including me. All I'm saying is that the guy broke the law and did something really stupid in light of recent events. Everything else: How sorry he is, he was just kidding, how you feel about it, is all subjective. There's sure to be a very wide range of discussion about the possibilities. I'm just trying to get the facts out there. As Sgt Joe Friday used to say, "Just the facts, Mam". The law (as KeithC posted it earlier) is pretty clear about what constitutes a threat, and there's no specifics needed.

Brian.

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TheComet
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Posted: 10th Jul 2013 20:34
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Quote: "aaaaaaaand what you're getting at is.........?"


He's obviously a terrorist using a false alias as a teenage gamer. His jailing was justified.

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Quik
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Posted: 10th Jul 2013 20:35
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Quote: "Well stop going on about this being an injustice as he was just joking."


fair enough. It's injustice because of reasons stated before that was not related to him joking.



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rolfy
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Posted: 10th Jul 2013 20:35 Edited at: 10th Jul 2013 20:39
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Quote: "Now tell me: if he simply said, "I'm going to kill you," would that still be a crime? "
Yes, it would.

Quote: "It's injustice because of reasons stated before that was not related to him joking"
.What reasons?

If someone threatens to mass kill kids, should we let him out as technically he hasn't commited the crime yet? Or should we keep him locked up till satisfied he is absolutely no threat, no matter how long it takes. Thomas Hamilton stood shooting and murdering five year olds, maybe those parents have a different view on 'rights' from yours.
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Wolf
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Posted: 10th Jul 2013 20:36 Edited at: 10th Jul 2013 20:37
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Quote: "I'm glad you live in your Country too, Benjamin. "

Was that really necessary? Anyway: My comment will prove that your country will not necessarily matter:

It really depends on your common sense and of course: pre-event trauma.

Nobody would have acted on this kid if there wheren't already shootouts in schools that actually manifested.
All these parents and children who lived in the illusion of savety and got it shattered resonated far in the american society and therefore people might overreact to an obvious sarcastic joke...that is not THAT obvious to me. Take out the still beating hearts part and it would be rather genuine.

Here is what happened to me.

I once was on a really snobby forum and trolled them with a couple friends back when I was around 15 (i think). We wrote similar threats that went as over the top as "we are going to arm the kindergarten kids with rocket launchers and take over the highschool with our minions". This went back and forth and was obviously not ment to be taken seriously. Unnecessary and childish? Yes! Of course... Moronic? Absolutely! No argument there.

Here is the aftermath: The german police requested my government to actually breach and enter my house with a police task force. This went over interpol. Now, the local police took a good look on the posts and shot me a mail to show up at the local station and everything was fine. If I'd live in a more... "law enforced" country like germany I'd have a visit of the SEK while preparing my morning coffee.

A friend of mine joined the army a little later and actually had to explain this event to the military intern-police (it was something like that). They dropped it of course.


This was around 7 years ago.

He did make a public threat. Yes! It is being investigated! Yes! Having him in prison rather than secure psychological observation? Wrong in my opinion
Setting his bail to 500,000 USD? Ludachris and I guess its obvious that someone wants to set an example here (these law people simply dont get that this event and the way it is handled will lead to more teens making these kinds of remarks rather than fewer)



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Dark Java Dude 64
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Posted: 10th Jul 2013 20:39 Edited at: 10th Jul 2013 20:40
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Quote: "Yes, it would."
So tell me then, why is it generally seen as fine to say that to someone?

By this logic, I have committed this crime plenty of times by jokingly telling people I'd kill them.
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Quik
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Posted: 10th Jul 2013 20:39
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there was looads of "jokes"(or not) going around about the norway shootings...

aint nobody got arrested for that.



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Benjamin
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Posted: 10th Jul 2013 20:39 Edited at: 10th Jul 2013 20:47
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No one really knows whether it was a threat or not, since we don't have the full story, just what the media tell us. Going by what was said I'm going to assume he was joking, which means it was not a threat, unless the definition has changed recently. If it's true that he was joking (and made it clear), he did not commit a crime.

Quote: "France has the same steps in place just as all of Europe and the States has Benjamin, maybe it all just slipped by you."


I'm aware of that, although I find it unlikely this same case would have happened over here.

Quote: "For the last time I am going to point out that we are all making assumptions:"


Agreed, and I think we should leave it at that.

EDIT

Quote: "Thomas Hamilton stood shooting and murdering five year olds, maybe those parents have a different view on 'rights' from yours."


Of course, but we shouldn't decide laws from an emotional standpoint. Compassion and reason, yes.

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rolfy
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Posted: 10th Jul 2013 20:43 Edited at: 10th Jul 2013 20:46
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Sigh! When is it going to get across?
Quote: "
So tell me then, why is it generally seen as fine to say that to someone?

By this logic, I have committed this crime plenty of times by jokingly telling people I'd kill them."

Its absolutely not fine to say that to someone, if you do, and they report it. You will be arrested and likely charged, you are simply lucky they haven't.

Quote: "If it's true that he was joking, he did not commit a crime."
Actually even if he was joking it's still a criminal offense unlikely to get you more than a fine but an offense anyhow, you seem unable to distinguish between joking with friends and post crap on the internet aimed at unknown individuals in a general manner..
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Dark Java Dude 64
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Posted: 10th Jul 2013 20:45
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You must not live in a country where saying that is really common. Did you not get the part where I said jokingly? Also only in person have I said it to close family members and the like. Still a crime?
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Wolf
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Posted: 10th Jul 2013 20:48
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Quote: "You must not live in a country where saying that is really common. Did you not get the part where I said jokingly? Also only in person have I said it to close family members and the like. Still a crime?"


He did it more or less public. If you say it to a familiy member with a microphone on and broadcast it somewhere it is likely that some action will be taken.

Also: if you say it your tone of voice might make it more clear that you where joking. Also people that know you dont report you.

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Seppuku Arts
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Posted: 10th Jul 2013 20:48 Edited at: 10th Jul 2013 20:50
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School shootings happen and they don't just happen over in the US, other places have been plagued with it. I also understand this.

The way I see it. This remark this guy made on the internet has made him a suspect of a potential crime, whether it was in jest or was meant literally. It was reported to the police, fair enough, a concerned citizen will report what looks suspicious. The police then will need to investigate this. They'd collect the evidence and build up a case. If the evidence supports the idea that he was indeed going to let rip on a school, then it's obviously a lot more serious, he might not be safe being let free and also, he would need professional help so that he is mentally stable.

Likewise a case could be made that he was genuinely cracking a joke, it would seem sick to many, but such humour exists - people who have such humour generally do not condone the actions. I find such humour more common in Europeans than Americans, but I've spoken to Americans with that kind of humour. This is because people find things that are offensive funny, not because of the content, but the fact it's offensive. For example, there's people who tell dead baby jokes. And also, it's why some folks are able to appreciate the humour of South Park and on occassions, Family Guy. Matt Stone, Trey Parker and Seth McFarlene don't necessarily condone the things they joke about, but joke about them.

I don't think there should be a charge, unless his comments actually caused damage and the punishment should be made on the damage caused. People may try to make a case he was wasting police time. But if he's just made a joke, all he's done is what people usually feel free to do day to day, but it has made him look suspicious. I don't think cracking jokes or making sarcastic remarks about school shootings should be any more illegal than wearing an anorak outside of a school. Both will give fair reason to make you look suspicious to an onlooker and you might class the guy wearing the anorak as a fool, but he hasn't actually done anything wrong. And it's the police's job to investigate suspicious things and we don't charge people for looking or acting suspicious, unless of course, they're acting suspicious on purpose to waste their time.

Prison time can mean a lot of things, it could mean it screws with somebody psychologically or it could hurt their job prospects or things about their future (not everybody wants to hire an ex-con) and do more damage than simply sitting in a cell for 6 months. And for what? Making comments he may not have meant without actually harming anybody? For a thought crime? For what potentially could have happened with no intention of doing it? To be made an example of? I don't think that's right.

If the evidence suggests he was intending to murder kids, then yes, I think something should be done. But at the moment all I see this as being as somebody getting jail time for being a suspect of a crime that hasn't happened.

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Benjamin
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Posted: 10th Jul 2013 20:49
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Quote: "Actually even if he was joking it's still a criminal offense"


Are you sure about that? Surely if it was a joke then it could not be a threat, since it didn't have the same meaning. A threat is a declaration of intent to hurt someone, but a joke isn't a declaration of anything.

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rolfy
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Posted: 10th Jul 2013 20:49 Edited at: 10th Jul 2013 20:58
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I get the part where you say 'jokingly' just fine you dont seem to get the part where context and who it's said to makes all the difference. Stop sliding around the facts and get real, you know the difference, if you don't your likely to end same way as the kid in question.

And yet again we get 'he was only joking' without any evidence to back it up.

Let's see now, he made the comment in anger, he said he would shoot up a school, maybe he was stupidly making a point about how others view him but let's be clear, he was NOT trying to be funny, sarcastic maybe. Of course that's reliant on what he actually DID say.

Quote: "Are you sure about that?"

Yes I am, you can claim it was a joke but the law wont care nor will the person threatened no matter what you say after the event, it is an offense whether you like it or not and if someone feels threatened and doesn't get your joke you can and will be charged.
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Dark Java Dude 64
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Posted: 10th Jul 2013 20:55 Edited at: 10th Jul 2013 20:57
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Heeeey calm down there. Yes, I get that context matters. Should I go to some public place and start yelling at a person and tell them I'll kill them? No. I get that context matters.

So apparently I have committed plenty of crimes, all of this type. Hell, I could go report all of my closest friends and get them jailed now, because they have all at one time or another jokingly made threats of this type.
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Benjamin
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Posted: 10th Jul 2013 20:58 Edited at: 10th Jul 2013 21:03
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Quote: "And yet again we get 'he was only joking' without any evidence to back it up."


You're right, but there's no evidence he made a serious threat either; evidence hasn't been released to the public.

I do think context is important. That's why I think given the 'evidence' it was clear from the context that he was just saying something to shock the other person, but didn't really mean it.

Quote: "if someone feels threatened and doesn't get your joke you can and will be charged."


I wish that were true. Every time a Muslim fanatic proclaims that Islam will one day conquer the world, I feel threatened. If people were charged for it perhaps it'd happen less. Maybe western Europe is too soft?

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Dark Frager
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Posted: 10th Jul 2013 21:03 Edited at: 10th Jul 2013 21:05
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Quote: "Yes, it would."


I should be in prison right now.

Honestly, his imprisonment is COMPLETELY unjustified. Like Benjamin said, there is no proof that it was a joke but there is no proof that it was a serious threat either, but it is certain that it was a joke and not a serious threat.

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rolfy
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Posted: 10th Jul 2013 21:08 Edited at: 10th Jul 2013 21:18
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Quote: "You're right, but there's no evidence he made a serious threat either; evidence hasn't been released to the public.

I do think context is important. That's why I think given the 'evidence' it was clear from the context that he was just saying something to shock the other person, but didn't really mean it."

LOL, no offense meant but aren't we contradicting ourselves here, if there is no evidence there is no context to base your opinion on

Quote: "Honestly, his imprisonment is COMPLETELY unjustified. Like Benjamin said, there is no proof that it was a joke but there is no proof that it was a serious threat either, but it is certain that it was a joke and not a serious threat."
Same as above. I am having a hard time understanding how some arrive at certainty after saying themselves there is nothing to go on in coming to that conclusion.

Quote: "I wish that were true. Every time a Muslim fanatic proclaims that Islam will one day conquer the world, I feel threatened. If people were charged for it perhaps it'd happen less. Maybe western Europe is too soft?"
If someone Muslim or not directly threatens to kill you, it's a criminal offense, why cant I get that across?
Many have been jailed and deported for just such a thing.
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xplosys
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Posted: 10th Jul 2013 21:21
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Quote: "If someone Muslim or not directly threatens to kill you, it's a criminal offense, why cant I get that across?"


I think at this point some people have too much invested to hear or admit that an actual crime was committed. It kind of ruins the whole.... "for no reason" defense.

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Seppuku Arts
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Posted: 10th Jul 2013 21:23 Edited at: 10th Jul 2013 21:25
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We know threats are a criminal offense. But if somebody feels threatened, doesn't mean a threat was given. A person could feel threatened for a whole number of reasons where somebody has had no intention of threatening anybody at all. You suggested if somebody doesn't get the joke and feels threatened, then you get charged, not if you threaten somebody you get charged.

Prolly hence Benjamin has created a scenario where he feels threatened, where somebody could in fact not be making a threat. I've known people to believe Islam will conquer the world not believing in force, but simply believe it because their way is true and that people will be educated into their world view. Most would consider such an opinion to be considered freedom of religion, but it doesn't change that somebody might feel threatened by it.

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Dark Java Dude 64
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Posted: 10th Jul 2013 21:24 Edited at: 10th Jul 2013 21:26
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Quote: "If someone Muslim or not directly threatens to kill you, it's a criminal offense, why cant I get that across?"
Okay then, we have a difference between intentions and things said. You may jokingly threaten a person. If so, you said you'd do something, however, that was not your true intention. So you're basically saying people with completely innocent intentions are still committing crimes by jokingly making threats? You can interrogate a person and investigate them to at least get an idea of what their true intentions are. That said, there is no need to simply lock them up in jail for a 'crime' they committed unless there is a decent bit of evidence supporting that what they said was also their intention.

I'm not trying to be annoying as hell, as I'm sure what I'm doing here is, but I'm just a bit upset that these laws exist and that people actually agree with them.
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Wolf
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Posted: 10th Jul 2013 21:26 Edited at: 10th Jul 2013 21:26
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Quote: "That said, there is no need to simply lock them up in jail for a 'crime' they committed unless there is a decent bit of evidence supporting that what they said was also their intentions."


My view exactly! There should be a way better way to handle this!

If you red my post on top of the page, the way the local police handled it was suiting the issue perfectly.

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Quik
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Posted: 10th Jul 2013 21:26
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Quote: "I think at this point some people have too much invested to hear or admit that an actual crime was committed. It kind of ruins the whole.... "for no reason" defense."


a crime justifiable of 6 months?

If i were to say "I'll kill you /insert badmouthing\" to someone, the most i'd get is a few thousand SEK fine or, possibly a few weeks prison time.

6 months? That's overkill by dinostomping.



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rolfy
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Posted: 10th Jul 2013 21:38 Edited at: 10th Jul 2013 21:44
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Telling someone you will 'kill them' in an argument, lets be clear that it was threatening even if in the end it wont actually happen, is an offense.

Posting on a public chat site that you would shoot up a school is something far more serious in my opinion and cant even be compared.

Maybe a more fitting punishment would be to sit them down with some folks who lost family and friends and explain to them what was so funny about your joke. (This goes for you too Wolf)
I am not condoning his time served while awaiting trial I actually believe it could have been handled better too (if he was actually just being flippant) but who knows maybe his own words damned him to it. If so he only has himself to blame I for one wouldn't like him on the street if he was serious.

For those saying they themselves have made threatening remarks in jest, I doubt the majority of you have ever said you would kill kids en masse it's not comparable at all.
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Quik
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Posted: 10th Jul 2013 21:51
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Quote: "Posting on a public chat site that you would shoot up a school is something far more serious in my opinion and cant even be compared."


............................... 6 months

thats half a year - that's in itself, a LOT of time, for a few words you TYPED ON THE INTERNET.

you guys are being so optmistic about time.



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rolfy
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Posted: 10th Jul 2013 22:01 Edited at: 10th Jul 2013 22:10
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Quote: "thats half a year - that's in itself, a LOT of time, for a few words you TYPED ON THE INTERNET."

Sigh! You seem determined to trivialize this who cares if he typed it on the internet,who cares if he shouted it from the rooftops. It's what was said that matters lowering it to base level where its just words on the internet beggars belief. Is this because you no longer have 'evidence' to support your argument? A point I made above which you chose to ignore. I give up....I mean it...no point in debating this further.
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Quik
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Posted: 10th Jul 2013 22:09
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I honestly don't care if he said - or screamed from the rooftops that he was gonna kill a baby, or that he was gonna shoot up a school, 6 months is completly ridiculous.



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rolfy
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Posted: 10th Jul 2013 22:11
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Yes it is, maybe a year would be more suiting
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Quik
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Posted: 10th Jul 2013 22:14 Edited at: 10th Jul 2013 22:15
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yes yes - a year in prison, which people get for acting upon their words, is very much suitable for standing on a rooftop screaming "I'M GONNA KILL EVERYONE"

yes, quite. let's bring the punishment for punching someone up to 5 years, murder up to 25, rape 30, massmurder should be penilized by death - heck, lets just ramp everything on 20+years with death.. with this standard that would be most crimes.

Sounds like a great plan friend - while we're at it, let's make shoplifting a crime against the country, at 15 years in prison.



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rolfy
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Posted: 10th Jul 2013 22:18 Edited at: 10th Jul 2013 22:20
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Quote: "for a few words you TYPED ON THE INTERNET"

Quote: "I honestly don't care if he said - or screamed from the rooftops that he was gonna kill a baby, or that he was gonna shoot up a school"

Quote: "standing on a rooftop screaming "I'M GONNA KILL EVERYONE""

Your getting on my nerves now, you change what you say to suit what your trying to say and your coming across as assuming I am too stupid to notice it.
Think about what your saying before you hit the post button and dont make assumptions on my character and beliefs because I irritated you, you set yourself up for it.
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xplosys
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Posted: 10th Jul 2013 22:19
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Like you said earlier, the conversation was over a while ago. Now he's just trolling.

I am the underground.
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Quik
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Posted: 10th Jul 2013 22:19 Edited at: 10th Jul 2013 22:23
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Quote: "Your getting on my nerves now, you change what you say to suit what your trying to say and your coming across as assuming I am too stupid to notice it."

Quote: "Sigh! You seem determined to trivialize this who cares if he typed it on the internet,who cares if he shouted it from the rooftops."


that is what I was getting at.

edit:
Quote: "Like you said earlier, the conversation was over a while ago. Now he's just trolling."


Hm, I am sorry if you feel that I am - and, really, there's no way I could convince you otherwise.
I do love arguments, discussions and whatnot, I love to learn about how other people feel and their philosophical views, and this is - in fact, a issue I do feel dearly about - so it might be quite hard for me to let it slide, especially when it's still going to some degree.

edit again: And, I do love to express my philosofical views and feelings.



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Wolf
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Posted: 10th Jul 2013 22:20 Edited at: 10th Jul 2013 22:34
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@rolfy
Quote: "Maybe a more fitting punishment would be to sit them down with some folks who lost family and friends and explain to them what was so funny about your joke. (This goes for you too Wolf)"


Yes dad

1. I was a kid. Yes! This is an excuse. Everyone who has ever been a kid knows this. You are immature when you are immature.

My view back then:
2. I believe everything can be joked about. I truely do. Joking about the darkest thing can even be healing or at least make us see a pitch black thing in a lighter way. (no! our jokes where not written in that spirit back then)
George carlin and Jim Jefferies have some pretty good jokes about rape. Our jokes where funny too, some of them in the beginning really where. It was the extreme response from the other members that drove us to go on and make the more infantile and pseudo-threatening claims.
Why? It was a remedy to an otherwise dead-dry forum full of people who believed they had morality leased for themselves spewing fake, pretentious sympathy to people they never knew nor cared about to make themselves seem even better in their little community. None of these cared about these people or even did anything remotely decent (donations for example) to them. We saw it like they only caressed their egos on there and took action. Justified? No. Necessary? No. This was how I felt about it at that age. In the end I am way more disgusted by false condolences than coldblooded jokes.

Why else? Something absurd, yet tragic happened...monstrous and incomprehensible for many. Dont we make it worse if we arent allowed to make fun of it?
We overexaggarated (did I get that word right?) it and gave it a lighter touch. We commented on the paranoia and the way older people saw videogaming teenagers at that time and on how awful the state regulated the affair (the way nothing has changed in the german education system, no one got on the bottom of how lower classes can be hostile environemnts and how bullying like this could happen in a supervised facility, how can teachers be threatened not to act by students? How did these kids get access to firearms in a country where they are strictly regulated?) and played the blame game was the actual joke there.

We in no way included any details or similaritys to actual incidents where people ran amok. (we could have mentioned cruise-ship, rather than school and there would be nothing to related to these events in germany). So actually explaining this to people who lost friends in such an incident doesnt really fit. It only "kinda" fits...

This was my 15 year old selfs honest oppinion. Do I have the same oppinion now as an adult? No! Of course not! Do I believe I should have been imprisoned to, as some extremist would put it, "learn my lesson?" No! Of course not! Having the police involved in this was lesson enough.

Also, your semi-mature argument is understandable altough a little bland really. Every now and then someone dies under absurd circumstances and people laugh about it. They joke about it.


* A jockey died of a heartattack, yet his horse won!

Is it okay to joke about this? yes! Is it okay to joke about this in front of his wife and children? No, of course not.

Edit: And before someone gives me the "if it happened to you" argument. Yes! People in my family have been murdered, committed suicide or got wasted away by drugs. This happened.
Yes! I have the emotional maturity to handle a joke about this.

Its an insane world, and I'm happy to be around for a while.



-Wolf

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rolfy
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Posted: 10th Jul 2013 22:55 Edited at: 11th Jul 2013 00:30
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Quote: "Also, your semi-mature argument is understandable altough a little bland really."
Maybe you find my argument semi-mature and a little bland whilst your own is so obviously fully mature and super interesting, you are obviously a well balanced personality who sees the world for what it is and should be placed in charge forthwith...just playing with you....but seriously my opinion may be 'old dad' to you but at least I don't contradict myself and pretend it never happened as seen here with some in this thread. As for yourself you were 15 years old this guy was 19years old and his statement bears no relevance whatsoever to your own case, so why compare it? other than to agree the law is an ass and use your own experience as example...we all know it can be sometimes...but what makes you think they are wrong in this case?.
Maybe the lack of maturity isn't mine. But my perception of some others may be, you admit it was stupid and you admit you were immature, you need to read my posts properly before deciding I am coming down hard, I actually agree this should be handled better (if it was just flippant comment, he actually may be held still because he did show signs of mental instability) but I don't see anyone proving either way, just making a bunch of outraged defensive statements based on meaningless BS they said or did themselves and for which they had no issues come their way. So that means its all ok then even though they dont have a clue what actually happened. Which to be honest say's a lot about their own immaturity and inability to reason properly.

'Everybody does it' is your own opinion.

Quote: "Take out the still beating hearts part and it would be rather genuine"
And yet again we get this passed off as fact quoting something the parents said, "it went along the lines of".
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