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Geek Culture / Is Anyone making money selling games written in DBPro ?

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flibX0r
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Posted: 14th Nov 2004 22:25
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no, there aren't. wtf are you on about Raven? I sure you could make Generals in DBPro, although it would be as fast because DBPro isn't optimised for it


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Dodo
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Posted: 14th Nov 2004 23:20
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@ Peter_ no, it was made with DBC, im just not sure 'fruitful' is the right word. However, just look at the quality if FPSC, and that should change your mind

Part of solving the problem is actually noticing that the problem is there in the first place

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Andy Igoe
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Posted: 15th Nov 2004 03:11 Edited at: 15th Nov 2004 03:36
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Quote: "I'm talking about are developers like Banshee Studios. Teams of people who have EXPERIENCE and know what it takes to make money from shareware."

As it stands my team and I still write freeware and not shareware. We've had a bad year in terms of releases from a personal illness and two attempts at the DBP programming competition where we couldn't produce a game of a standard we consider accepteable (ie: equal in quality to our next generation of games for next year).

Although the specifics of what went wrong with our attempts to make an entry to the standard we wanted is best left for bug report emails, frankly I can no longer be bothered with writting them as my bedroom wall can only take so much head banging.

What I will say regarding this thread though, and in terms of making money as a shareware author is that choice of language IS extremely important.

On our last 3 project we have started writting the games initially in both languages. We do this to ascertain which language will yield the best final results.

We'll write the entire display portal and collision system and see what the framerates are - if comparable we'll start adding gameplay to both systems.

On every project we have developed like this so far we have found that the DBP version and the BB3D version performed to a comparable standard, with a slight visual advantage going to Blitz. There are differences in framerate between the two systems depending upon the nuances of each games specific details.

For instance our next release (SAS: Bochage) features an outdoor terrain and I wrote half a dozen terrain systems in each language to ascertain which would yield the best results.

Some had high density fauna lots of pollys / lots of object instances and some had animated fauna and some combined both. I did this for both languages.

I'm not allowed to say here which I thought was better and why, but what I can say is that when I started to add gameplay to the two language versions of SAS: Bochage I came unstuck on the DBP version because of the return of a limb pivot rotation bug that hasn't been seen since bugFixVersion (update) 4.1

DBP is still riddled with bugs, and they'll sneak up on me too... Stuff that was working suddenly doesnt on an update that I need because it fixed a different bug that was holding me up... It goes on in an endless cycle, old bugs dissapear to have new stuff fixed but then they come back again and some other thing goes.

I've emailed countless times over one particular issue and have been told time and time again that it is fixed - only to download the update and find it isn't... Back to the email...

Now I have completely given up with contacting TGC over issues with DBP. I no longer have the patience to deal with them.

I have 3 projects on the go, all too a much higher standard than my previous games, and all of them started out in both languages and none of them are still seeing development continued on the DBP versions of the games.

I'm not bitter over my purchase, DBP is fine for simple games and I have written lots of simple games. However I have no intention of ever attempting a complicated game in DBP again. Simple stuff is fine, anything complex involves too many work arounds and frankly whilst the competition doesnt have the same features it is more expensive to buy it for a very good reason.


Which is the biggest tool? The computer, or the muppet who invented it?
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Shadow Robert
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Posted: 15th Nov 2004 03:45
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Quote: "They're aren't any shaders in Generals are there?"

Quote: "no, there aren't. wtf are you on about Raven? I sure you could make Generals in DBPro, although it would be as fast because DBPro isn't optimised for it"


Erm.. There is a reason it is GeForceFX recommended.
Shadows (Hardware), Water/Smoke/Fire Effects (CgShader 2.0), Sky/Cloud Effect (CgShader 2.0)

It is possible to run C&C Generals on a limited Shader card, i.e. Fixxed-Function GeForce2/4mx and Radeon 7Series. It also has a DirectX Shader 1.1 Setup for everything, for cards which don't support Cg. But generally speaking, anyone who is playing it on a fairly modern card is running General with Shaders.
The game it setup in such a way that you won't even realise which version you are running either... The Shader 2.0 version has only minor visible quality enhancements over Shader 1.1, however it is faster.

Unless you actually get youself an FFShader card, and try Generals; you will never know what it looks like without Shaders.

Quote: "I'm not bitter over my purchase, DBP is fine for simple games and I have written lots of simple games. However I have no intention of ever attempting a complicated game in DBP again. Simple stuff is fine, anything complex involves too many work arounds and frankly whilst the competition doesnt have the same features it is more expensive to buy it for a very good reason."


Something I have been echoing for months, but alot of people refuse to believe it.


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Andy Igoe
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Posted: 15th Nov 2004 04:07
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It's nice to actually agree with you Raven, that hasn't happened in a while . Maybe if you said less it would happen more often! ... hehe


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Peter H
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Posted: 15th Nov 2004 05:26
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@Andy Igoe-so you're saying if i want to make a complex game get BB??

"We make the worst games in the universe."

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tomazmb
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Posted: 15th Nov 2004 05:36
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Hello,

I must say that although I don't use DB Pro (I own it) I never had a feeling to really deepen inside of learning DB Pro. There was never the passion behind that would pull me inside the DB Pro world. I like this forum, I'm here every day, but....
Raven and Andy Igoe had a good point there. Why aren't more titles to be show off ? Why have so many good developers left this community for Blitz 3D ? Why there are good and even on this website selling programs made in Blitz ? Almost every week I see at least 1-2 new titles at Blitz site showing new Commercial products made in Blitz ? There are to many this whys...
My personal feelings are that TGC hast lost (or never have) passion to deliver quality software. They inovate, but there is always missing the final touch. Saddly the best propaganda for Blitz, IBasic, PlayBasic,...is almost always the disappointment of the TGC customers...

Have a nice day,

Tomaz

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Andy Igoe
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Posted: 15th Nov 2004 07:33
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Quote: "@Andy Igoe-so you're saying if i want to make a complex game get BB??"

No Peter, i'm saying that's what I do.

If you wanted to hear my opinion and advice it would not necessarily be "Do it in Blitz". What it would not be though, is to do a complex program in DBPro, that's just asking to be hit by bugs that are not your fault.

Of course defining "complicated" is another matter that in itself is quite complex - pun intended.

Quote: "Why aren't more [DBPro] titles to be show off ?"

It's simple, it is a matter of depth to the top end of the user base. Most of DBP's top end users have migrated to other platforms in the 2 years it has taken for DBP to get around to promising they would remove the bugs, although of course we are still waiting for the delivery of that promise.

What makes a top end DBP developer? Practice and experience. You dont get good quickly, so the potentially good guys are the ones who have been using DBP a while, and those are the guys who are leaving because they are dissenchanted on waiting for the thing to be fixed.

In my eyes I make no bones about it, the problem is a guy called Rick Vanner. He's the money man behind TGC and the person who decides on new developments. I pick him because the key problem with DBP is that TGC as a company are money orientated and chasing new products and expansions to an existing product before they have any justification for doing so.

What is the point of expanding DBP anyway when the core program doesn't work?

Everything yesterday, it cannot be done. I see it all the time in other development teams of various levels of professionalism, it's where the boss expects something that cannot be done and when it isn't done he goes ahead anyway.

It's not that I dont like Rick Vanner, I have no contact with him, but in the long time i've been a user of the DB languages I have learned a little of the way the firm works and to me this appears to be the fundamental flaw behind DBP - commercialism, and poor development management.

Personally I consider DarkBASIC Classic to be TGC's flagship product. Unfortunately it is not powerful enough for my own tastes, but it is a far better product than DBP.


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Shadow Robert
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Posted: 15th Nov 2004 09:01
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Quote: "My personal feelings are that TGC hast lost (or never have) passion to deliver quality software. They inovate, but there is always missing the final touch. Saddly the best propaganda for Blitz, IBasic, PlayBasic,...is almost always the disappointment of the TGC customers..."


Unfortunately you might be intested to know that DarkBASIC Professional is 'the' market leader in this class of software.

While personally you might feel a little cheated, fact remains thier business strategy is keeping them as the for-runner of this arm of the industry.

Just look at the other languages. Almost every competeting language is moving to cross-platforming, while TGC are firmly staying on just the Microsoft Platform. Business-wise TGC are dominating, no matter how much more technically superior other languages may be.


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Van B
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Posted: 15th Nov 2004 18:06
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How dare they!

I'm guessing Mark Sibly's approach of plain ignorance is the path of the true developer. I want TGC to be succesful and make money - because the stronger they are, the stronger our tools get.

I mean, let's compare shall we?

what has Sibly done in the past 3 years to improve BlitzBasic?

Blitzmax is a new platform altogether - does that mean Blitz3D is no longer one of his concearns?

How come their publisher practically abandonded them?


Van-B


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Andy Igoe
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Posted: 15th Nov 2004 19:14
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Answering that question here Van would be a breach of forum rules as it would draw a direct comparison between the languages, however you may wish to know there was a patch two weeks ago for both Blitz3D and BlitzPlus.

Additionally I would say that I personally am yet to stumble across a single bug in Blitz and i've been using it for about 9 months now, does it need regular bug-fixes?

In contrast TGC are selling expansions, BR doesn't seem to want to take advantage of that route and are instead going multi-platform. Personally I would not consider that a fair way of saying one is updated and the other is not.


Which is the biggest tool? The computer, or the muppet who invented it?
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Van B
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Posted: 15th Nov 2004 19:52
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Most of the bugs in Blitz were ironed out early on - by the community, it's not like Sibly went for any particular strategy. From what I've been told, Blitz has it's bugs, just like DBPro.

Multiplatform is fine, if it's implimented. Personally I doubt Blitzmax will get anywhere near what is expected of it. Fine, make a game on a PC and then port it to the mac, that's great but there's absolutely nothing to go on bar peoples lofty expectations. Does any blitzer actually believe that they'll be cross compiling their latest 3D masterpiece onto the mac? - considering that it does'nt even come with a 3D engine, I doubt it'll be as simple as that. 2D might be fine for some, but I doubt there's many blitzers willing to go back to 2D for the sake of cross platform support. I'm not saying it'll never be possible, I'm saying it'll be a very long time before it is.

I mean, I can't go out and buy many Mac games, even if I wanted to - the Mac gaming market is obviously small - so why prioritise cross platform rather than say, a recent version of DX or a stack of new commands?. It seems to me that there's a lot of hearsay about what will happen and what will be possible, DBPro is delivering what I want from it - and I'm not constantly battling bugs, the biggest bug for me in the last year has been the crud transparencies we used to have - and that's about it. You could say that I have quite a varied project list - so I should be picking up bugs all the time, but I'm really not - that's why I'm quite adament in posts like this.


Van-B


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Andy Igoe
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Posted: 15th Nov 2004 21:27
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I too am hardly exited by cross platform support and as for BMax well i'll believe it when it happens, I guess in time that it is most likely to happen - but it doesnt effect me until it does.

I can only use what is around now, and in that point I agree whole-heartedly with you. It's just that by using tools that are "now" I have come to a different conclusion as to which tool is the best for me to use.

The transparency issue was huge for me, it meant that Transfusion had to be compiled under 4.1 with the ATI bug which unfortunately cost me a lot of ground at a certain Edinburgh games company you recently mentioned in another thread - doing just the job you where talking about...

I have a friend who works there and he said that the boss loaded up Transfusion and it did the ATI hang thing and he wasnt impressed, time to apply elsewhere...

For me the biggest problems are the persistent bugs, transparency is still an issue, limb rotation was broken on the last patch and it can take up to 3 hours to compile a segmented global scenery mesh using memblocks whereas Blitz does the same task on my latest project in about 20 seconds.

In my opinion there are still major bugs in DBP. Why should I have to write my own object rotational system to counter DBP's gimbal lock even though we where given a new rotation system specifically to fix this that is ... BUGGED!?

Why should my tree's show through parts of the skybox infront of the terrain even though it has been fixed in every recent patch!?

Why should my shaders only work with 1 object on the screen and be incompatable with expansions such as the terrain system?

Why should limb rotation not work when DBP still doesnt support mdl or loading in of mesh deformation objects in a common format completely curtailing the ability to animate? In contrast to information on the box...

There's so many problems, and i'm so sick and tired of reporting them and getting nowhere with the bug reports that the only thing I would contemplate using DBP for now is simple 2D stuff, and frankly I dont find it the best at doing that.

As I said before I dont regret buying DBP, i've had my moneys worth in terms of releases. However I was promised the ability to do so much more and all I can do is write work around after work around until eventually my work arounds conflict with my designs.

I believe you've seen my recent screenies Van and I do know how to write a finished game as my site is testimony. I'm not a jolly come lately without a clue or with an ingrained prejudice against DBP. Infact I dreaded learning a new language when I pulled out the last straw and bought Blitz, but I felt that I had to do it to keep on coding and further my hobby.

How can I look at my showcase of games and be proud of my programming? I can't, I know i'm capable of so much more and i've proved that with various projects that i've had to abort because of one issue or another that was nothing to do with me and the work of my team. With DBP I have been consistently unable to deliver games of a quality comparable to my ability.

I'm not the best, never claimed to be and know my place is only one of the guys. I know it is possible to write a good game in DBP, but I also know that the odds of doing so are directly proportional to how many different commands I intend to use to realise any given project, the more commands, the more chance of coming across a bug that is incompatable with some other feature.

DBP just isn't suited to shareware standard games, which is what this thread was all about.


Which is the biggest tool? The computer, or the muppet who invented it?
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Ron Erickson
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Posted: 15th Nov 2004 22:56
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Quote: "Why should I have to write my own object rotational system to counter DBP's gimbal lock even though we where given a new rotation system specifically to fix this that is ... BUGGED!?"


The rotation system isn't bugged. It's just confusing. DBpro uses Euler angles. I've NEVER had a problem since I have figured out how to use them properly. I wrote EZrotate so other people wouldn't have to struggle with it. There is a free version of EZrotate on my site that will help you with rotations, or there is the enhanced version that was released as an expansion pack.

As far as the expansions go, most of them have been written by third parties. This takes very little of TGC's time yet helps them pay the bills.

EZrotate!
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Vite
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Posted: 15th Nov 2004 23:19
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I have now downloaded an tried out "dark conflict" , "firewall" "tank collector" all written in DB.

Dark confict being the only one that appeared up to retail demo standard, but circa 1997 i.e "C & C : red alert" standard, graphics, quite encouraging actually.

Can I ask you guys a coupla more questions.

1, How long in actual calender time, weeks, months, years are you willing an able to give to a single project.

2, Do you design your projects to be inherently short time commitment ( you know, the good old don't bite off more than you can chew)

3, does anyone here start a project with the explicit intention of selling the end product to uninvolved & unknown 3rd parties,, i.e. the public at large

4, I am a VBA/VB programmer, so I haven''t much off a clue about games programming, tho I know a games engine is a loop
QUESTION: does DBPro deliver an advantage time wise over the the alternate combination of say VC++/DirectX SDK.

I can well sympathise with the TGC business model, but I really would like to know, is

DBpro purely a

fun tool

or a

Production tool

Cheers
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Peter H
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Posted: 15th Nov 2004 23:23 Edited at: 15th Nov 2004 23:27
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@Vite-
1. on my current project i'm planning to take at least a year...and i'm willing to work on it for 2 years

2. my last two projects i designed for competitions that i had two months to work on...so, yes...i had to make them short

3. i'm starting my current project with the intention of making it retail quality...and if it doesn't turn out that way i'll work on it till it does(or move languages)

4. i don't think so (unless you mean dev time then i'd say yes)


@FireWall- just so you know that is still being worked on and it looks like it's being brought up to Retail standard(the GUI really needed replacement )

@Andy Igoe- would you say a 3D RTS kind of like HomeWorld except without a storyline(more like you are in a multi system galaxy that you have to dominate) is classified as complicated?

"We make the worst games in the universe."

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Shadow Robert
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Posted: 16th Nov 2004 02:55
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Q: How long in actual calender time, weeks, months, years are you willing an able to give to a single project.
A: This depends on the developers really. Personally I have a v.short project attention span when working on my own; but when working in a group, well I've helped with some of the few complete games available. Pitty none since DBP though.

Q: Do you design your projects to be inherently short time commitment
A: Each project I start usually starts with, 'I wonder if [such'n'such] would be possible in DBP?'. Everything then blows up from there, and while I try to keep designs small; i have a serious problem with ever expanding on the concept idea. you never quite realise how much work your putting on others at work until you do it to yourself.

Q: does anyone here start a project with the explicit intention of selling the end product to uninvolved & unknown 3rd parties,, i.e. the public at large
A: I have started a few projects aimed like that, unfortunately they've each in turn hit brickwalls and been moved into C++/C#, meaning that alot of work has to be restarted.

Q: I am a VBA/VB programmer, so I haven''t much off a clue about games programming, tho I know a games engine is a loop
QUESTION: does DBPro deliver an advantage time wise over the the alternate combination of say VC++/DirectX SDK.
A: See this is a very good question. While, I would say that DBP is a relatively good engine, the advantages of this engine slowly dwindle over using VB/DirectX as you find more core bugs and limitations.

While I believe feature wise DBP is the furthest along, what I'm sure alot of people here would much prefer is a smaller collection of commands that WORK without problem. Just as DarkBASIC did.

See with DarkBASIC they had the right idea. Release a small selection of commands, tweak and fix the bugs, move on to a new set of commands.
The difference between the first release of that I bought (1.04) and the final release (1.10) is just HUGE. Around 1,000 commands difference, and each of them work how you expect them to.

I said expect not intended, because Andy above mentioned the gimble bug in the object rotation. While Lee has states this 'bug' is actually how the function was intended to work, this problem was not present in the original; nor is it present in the rivals, and as such we expected it to work differently.

There was alot of talk when DBP first was release about why keep with the old syntax, and the reason was for compatibility. Problem is the current command set is about as compatible with DB as Oil and Water.

Q: I can well sympathise with the TGC business model, but I really would like to know, is - DBpro purely a; fun tool, or a Production tool
A: Fun tool, in my opinion


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Jeku
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Posted: 16th Nov 2004 05:28
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DBP is also a great prototype tool. For example, I made WordTris after wondering if the idea would be fun, and I wanted the game for myself. So, after creating it in DBP and noticing people's reactions (mostly good), I redid the entire game in Direct3D using C++. DBP took a lot of the chores of C++ programming, and made a quick and easy way for me to prototype the game. This is why companies like Shiny use DBP for prototyping

If the prototype sucks, then you didn't waste hundreds of hours coding the engine in C++, but rather a few dozen in DBP. When you convert your game over to C++, you can reuse a lot of the same logic, which is also a bonus.


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Andy Igoe
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Posted: 16th Nov 2004 07:02 Edited at: 16th Nov 2004 07:04
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Quote: "The rotation system isn't bugged. It's just confusing. DBpro uses Euler angles"

Use local rotation then try to read off an objects angle, or combine local rotations with the regular rotation commands.

Broken since implementation.

I wrote my own rotation system too, but why should we have too?

1. That perhaps is not a fair question as everyone works at different speeds. I can produce a DBP game in two days in 500 lines that is comparable to some I have seen that have taken many months and 15k lines. To answer realistically I would need to know the real purpose behind the question. I spend "as long as it takes" on my big projects.

2. I start off very simple then at the magic 80% (the easy bit done) I decide exactly what I want to do with it.

3. I often start off thinking shareware, then give the things away for free.

4. Hugely, in 2 days I can get a massive scale fractally generated mapping system done complete with animated backdrops, collision detection, portal system, and additional background touches. In fact most of my games have been written from start to finish in a weekend or similar. The time savings of using any BASIC over C++ is absolutely massive.

The final question, in a class of semi-professional production tools it is the fun tool that promises it is the best, and actually could be if...


Which is the biggest tool? The computer, or the muppet who invented it?
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Rob K
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Posted: 16th Nov 2004 08:25 Edited at: 16th Nov 2004 08:27
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@WOLF

From what I understand, Blitz uses quaternions internally, but somehow the commands exposed to the user uses Euler angles. I find Blitz' system more intuitive because it works how you might expect, rather than DBPro where rotation will be baffling to people such as myself who do not fully understand Euler maths. For example, when you rotate an object in three directions, it appears to use its local axis for all 3.

Quote: "Does any blitzer actually believe that they'll be cross compiling their latest 3D masterpiece onto the mac? - considering that it does'nt even come with a 3D engine, I doubt it'll be as simple as that"


Sadly this was misunderstood by certain idiots on the Blitz forums who shall remain nameless. There will *be* a cross-platform 3D engine created by BRL, but it will be released seperately from the main compiler.


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Ron Erickson
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Posted: 16th Nov 2004 11:15
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Quote: "Use local rotation then try to read off an objects angle, or combine local rotations with the regular rotation commands.

Broken since implementation."


Oh yeah... I forgot about that one. lol

Quote: "@WOLF

From what I understand, Blitz uses quaternions internally, but somehow the commands exposed to the user uses Euler angles. I find Blitz' system more intuitive because it works how you might expect, rather than DBPro where rotation will be baffling to people such as myself who do not fully understand Euler maths. For example, when you rotate an object in three directions, it appears to use its local axis for all 3."


I haven't dabbled with B3D enough to know the exact system that it uses, but Euler angles are Euler angles. All three in the set (XYZ)are dependent on each other. You can't pull one of them out and use it directly. Maybe I'll have to do some research into the system that B3d uses sometime for reference and easy conversion between the 2.

EZrotate!
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Andy Igoe
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Posted: 16th Nov 2004 17:11
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Wolf, you can add a flag onto the end of a Blitz rotation command, without the flag it is local rotation, and with the flag it is global rotation.

It has been showing up DBx on this issue since day one. Of course DBP has local rotation commands but as discussed above it is bugged.

Not a single programmer here likes or makes use of this euler/gimbal rotation method. It is completely in contrary to DBP's design philosophy of being aimed at beginners.


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Jess T
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Posted: 16th Nov 2004 19:41
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@Vite,
Quote: "I have now downloaded an tried out "dark conflict" , "firewall" "tank collector" all written in DB.

Dark confict being the only one that appeared up to retail demo standard"


One thing you cannot possibly know, is that Xander is still Beta Testing Firewall ( I am one of the lucky few ), and the 'retail' version has come a LONG way from the showcase demo.
There are many, many more features, gameplay, and a new interface.
( Just so you know ).

@Andy,
I liked reading through your comments, and I thank you for that.
It was nice to read past the "I hate this, because of this" that normall comes out of people who disagree with an aspect of DBP, and get into the heart of the issue with someone who know's what they are talking about ( you ).
Thank you again

Jess.


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