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Dark GDK / Dark SDK

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Preben
AGK Studio Developer
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Posted: 30th Nov 2004 23:15
Or split the sync command into 3 commands,

BeginScene()
DrawAll()
EndScene()

This would also work with DBP,
d3ddevice = GetdevicePointer()
BeginScene()
DrawAll()
my_own_dll_render_function(d3ddevice)
EndScene()

This way there would be a problem with "LostDevice" , but perhaps there could be a way to poll it ?

if Device_Error() then
....
else
my_own_dll_render_function(d3ddevice)

Or perhaps there is another , better way to do this!

best regards Preben Eriksen, Vonna.com
OSX Using Happy Dude
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Posted: 1st Dec 2004 01:51
Might be an idea, but would have to been added much later...

Walk softly... and carry a big gun...
Erick G
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Posted: 1st Dec 2004 02:29
ok, I have just purchased it

Question for Mike S

Will we have to pay again for the TPC's ?

I fear I have wasted a lot now on buying the TPC's for DB Pro.
Cellbloc Studios
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Posted: 1st Dec 2004 04:10
I don't know what TPC is but it may be part of my question.

My question is, will we have to pay for "updates" such as the Cloth Pack, The Enhancement Pack, Nuclear Glory, EZRotate, etc that we have already purchased for DBP for use with the Dark Game SDK?

Thanks in advance.

-This...is my boomstick!
Mike Johnson
TGC Developer
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Posted: 1st Dec 2004 04:18
Preben - some good suggestions for the SDK. Something we can look into when working on upgrades. Will certainly bring a lot more control over the whole process.

As far as the expansion packs go I can only talk about the ones developed by TGC. For now the first job is to convert them and get them working with the SDK.

Mike
Cian Rice
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Posted: 1st Dec 2004 04:22
Do we need to have purchased DBPro to used Dark Game SDK? I want to know before I decide to purcahse it.

There is only one way to package shaolin: Shaolin Soccer...
Mike Johnson
TGC Developer
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Posted: 1st Dec 2004 04:24
You do not need to own DB Pro.

The Dark Game SDK is a complete product on it's own.

Mike
Cellbloc Studios
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Posted: 1st Dec 2004 04:26
Great. I will hold out on getting the Dark Game SDK until I see some of the packs transfering over. I use them too much! (except for the "cannot move particles once created" which is a real bummer)

-This...is my boomstick!
Cian Rice
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Posted: 1st Dec 2004 04:27
Okay, I'm more into the whole OOP thing so I guess I'll buy Dark SDK rather than DBP. You should put that on the FAQ page.

There is only one way to package shaolin: Shaolin Soccer...
Spline
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Posted: 1st Dec 2004 04:39 Edited at: 1st Dec 2004 04:43
I know that Dark Game SDK, is the way to go programing C++, but gamecreators says you need, Microsoft Visual C++ 6 ( service pack 5 or higher ) or Microsoft Visual C++ .NET 2003 this software must be out of the price range of a lot of users, the great thing about DBP is that it has the compiler built in, you dont have to have any other software to make a game. is there any way aroung having to have, Microsoft Visual C++ 6 ( service pack 5 or higher ) or Microsoft Visual C++ .NET 2003

this is a great step hope there are way around it.

is the free Microsoft Visual C++ Toolkit 2003 any good
Mike Johnson
TGC Developer
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Posted: 1st Dec 2004 04:41
We're looking into supporting more compilers like Dev C++ etc.

The standard edition of Microsoft Visual C++. NET 2003 is around $90 which isn't too bad considering what you get

Mike
CattleRustler
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Posted: 1st Dec 2004 04:43
for god sake make the SDK usable by VB.NET programmers!




DBP_NETLIB_v1.4.3 DarkTOPIA site coming soon!
Cian Rice
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Posted: 1st Dec 2004 04:43
Well now seeing the prices for the shareware liscense I think I'm going to stick with DBP .

There is only one way to package shaolin: Shaolin Soccer...
Cellbloc Studios
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Posted: 1st Dec 2004 04:45
You can usually buy a book at your local retail bookstore that has Visual C++ in it for like $50.00

I know you will say "well, if I have to pay XXX for the Dark Game SDK and XXX for the compiler, what's the point?"

I think the point will be that the DarkBASIC IDE has issues that in my opinion, are not going to get fixed. Besides the Visual C++, Borland, and such have been around for awhile and are tested by more users than the DarkBASIC IDE.

That's my 2 cents.

-This...is my boomstick!
Mike Johnson
TGC Developer
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Posted: 1st Dec 2004 04:46
CattleRustler - would really like to support VB6 and VB.NET. Currently looking into ways of doing this.

Anime Blood - you can always get the freeware version to begin with which is much cheaper then if you get to a point where you have a game and you want to sell it online then consider getting the shareware version.

Mike
CattleRustler
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Posted: 1st Dec 2004 04:50
Quote: "CattleRustler - would really like to support VB6 and VB.NET. Currently looking into ways of doing this."


YAY!



DBP_NETLIB_v1.4.3 DarkTOPIA site coming soon!
Spline
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Posted: 1st Dec 2004 04:55
can you use the free Microsoft Visual C++ Toolkit 2003

this is from there development certer

The Microsoft Visual C++ Toolkit 2003 includes the core tools developers need to compile and link C++-based applications for Windows and the .NET Common Language Runtime:

* Microsoft C/C++ Optimizing Compiler and Linker. These are the same compiler and linker that ship with Visual Studio .NET 2003 Professional!
* C Runtime Library and the C++ Standard Library, including the Standard Template Library. These are the same static-link libraries included with Visual Studio.
* Microsoft .NET Framework Common Language Runtime. Visual C++ can optionally build applications that target the Common Language Runtime (CLR).
* Sample code. The toolkit includes four samples designed to showcase the powerful new features of the 2003 version, including new optimization capabilities, features to improve code-security and robustness, enhanced ISO C++ standards support, and the ability to use the .NET Framework library and target the CLR.
Mike Johnson
TGC Developer
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Posted: 1st Dec 2004 04:57
Not tried using the toolkit on it's own. Will be worth giving it a go.

Mike
Cian Rice
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Posted: 1st Dec 2004 04:59
Well I'd do that but then there's the visual studio requirements.

There is only one way to package shaolin: Shaolin Soccer...
CattleRustler
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Posted: 1st Dec 2004 05:10
Mike,

If you need vb.net testers let me know, I'd be glad to help.


DBP_NETLIB_v1.4.3 DarkTOPIA site coming soon!
cybernetic wraith
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Posted: 1st Dec 2004 05:13
I must say that as a very recent purchaser of DBP and a DLL writer for DBP myself, that I am quite distraught at the way TGC is handling this DarkSDK upgrade. I mean... a 10% discount for previous DBP owners? Is that a joke? It's better than nothing but it certainly doesn't help my feeling that I've been a fool in my purchase of a "fully supported product".

I don't mean to be rude but please, thats just like a kick in the face to a recent customer and DLL writer (as well as the faithful who've been around a while). I can write a DBP game and sell it online. But for the same price to buy the DBP engine license again I am no longer allowed to sell my product, instead I have to shell out lots of money on a product that may face the same lacking support as DBP itself (who knows)?

Hows this for an idea, since giving something for free is obviously out of the question: Offer to previous DBP owners the option to purchase the commercial license at the freeware license price! What a thought...

Anyways I hope that TPC SDK is as powerful as IanM's system otherwise it will be one hell of a project for people to convert thier DLLs to it. Isolating and alienating your core support team (freeware DLL developers) is a poor move and I hope this is reconsidered.

As a programmer who knows time is money, I'll be looking to alternative solutions unless these issues are addressed in a timely manner.


P.S. - Another thought... why not create a CVS or something similar with access to certain portions of the engine so people can submit feature additions and changes to be reviewed. (Obviously under an agreement that once submitted this code is no longer thiers.)
OSX Using Happy Dude
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Posted: 1st Dec 2004 05:16
No, one thing that shouldn't be introduced is CVS - it is a real pain.

Walk softly... and carry a big gun...
cybernetic wraith
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Posted: 1st Dec 2004 05:18
*ahem* "or something similar"

I just mean a place where experienced C/C++ coders (who most likely know how to use CVS anyway) can submit potential changes and fixes so that thier game development can continue without waiting months for a bug thats halted their development to get fixed.
OSX Using Happy Dude
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Posted: 1st Dec 2004 05:22
Theres always a work-around...

Walk softly... and carry a big gun...
cybernetic wraith
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Posted: 1st Dec 2004 05:28
Any programmer can tell you (I'm sure the guys at TGC can) that no matter how well you plan out any program that something might have to change.

With regards to a workaround...they tend to get quite messy and then once the bug IS fixed you've been 4 months further in the development process and by that time who knows how hard it would be to plug in the working feature to replace the workaround. In that case you are essentially creating a workaround for a workaround and that is begging for a buggy and unstable game.
cybernetic wraith
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Posted: 1st Dec 2004 05:32
Not to mention you are missing my main point. We should start a new thread if we are to debate this further.

My main point was the non-"P.S." section of my original post.
Cellbloc Studios
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Posted: 1st Dec 2004 05:40
Mike:

I need to buy 2 or 3 copies of the "Freeware" version today for the company. Are their any other discounts for more then 1 purchase?

I need to get 2 now, and I will get my version when you get the Packs working. Let me know so I can order it soon.

P.S.
I bought my DarkBASIC Pro at CompUSA so I don't get the discount do I?

-This...is my boomstick!
OSX Using Happy Dude
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Posted: 1st Dec 2004 05:42
Might be better to send an e-mail to Rich...

Walk softly... and carry a big gun...
Proteus
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Posted: 1st Dec 2004 06:10 Edited at: 1st Dec 2004 06:11
@http://darkgamesdk.thegamecreators.com/?f=order :
Quote: "
Price: $180
"




I guess all good things must come to an end...
I'll miss the good old dbc times... When long time customers weren’t backstabbed...

Love is like Pi - Natural, Irrational, and very important
Spline
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Posted: 1st Dec 2004 06:23
i think there will be a greater responce to Dark Game SDK when free compiers for example Bloodshed Dev C++ are supported, as statated by game creators, Plans are under way to support further compilers including Bloodshed Dev C++, how soon will this be, i think it would be better sooner than latter.
Mr Anderson
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Posted: 1st Dec 2004 06:49
I really-really-really-really-really misunderstood what the Dark SDK was. I guess I didn’t read every single posting, but I did frequent this thread and still couldn’t figure why it had a price tag. But then I assumed it would be minimal.

Nevertheless, it is less of a surprise to me now since it was positioned as a product with a price tag.

But I did think it was going to be what I traditionally know to be an SDK. I have understood a SDK to provide a template to expand the Software architecture, and perhaps allow the developer to access internal objects or inherit from internal objects to make new ones extended ones.

From what I understand, Dark SDK is more of a DB API for C/C++. It is a great addition to the palette Game Developers offers but confusing. At least confusing (perhaps) to some of us in the US

And since the user will not require DB Pro to use it (is that right??) - I'm not sure that I will require it over DB Pro other than just compiling faster executables and not having to develop separate dlls to work in concert with DB (which are of course good reason). I just was hopen to get access to internal DB stuff. Cool Beans either way.

Cheers

IDIC (Infinite Diversity Infinite Combinations)
Cellbloc Studios
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Posted: 1st Dec 2004 06:57
Please do not take this the wrong way..

but.

How many other people besides me, Bolt, and the Starwraith people have built AND SOLD a Commercial game? I don't think Bolt nor Starwraith got up front money, but we were paid so we could buy our tools.

If you not seriously going to develop a game and sell it, why are you complaing about buying a "hobby" product? Besides, if you spend the $180 and make that in, oh, lets say 1 month (that's REALLY poor sales) then I can see an issue, but your going to make your money back AND you will have learned more and better yourself yo make another product which you can also sell.

As I had stated, please don't start the flame. It's an honest question.

-This...is my boomstick!
APEXnow
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Posted: 1st Dec 2004 07:10 Edited at: 1st Dec 2004 07:13
[EDIT] Cellbloc, good point about sales comeback!!

Mike, after looking at the pricing for the SDK, I had to ask this because of the two licence versions available...

For developing freeware software, in otherwords, I can't make money from the stuff that is made with this version, that's £28.80 before the end of the year.

For developing shareware software, in otherwords this software is sold based on what price I decide to sell a product at, and the software is royalty free using the SDK, this costs £90??

So does the above licence apply to commercially developed applications using the SDK? Or will I need to pay royalties for the software I develop and sell?

I appreciate that to use a 3D engine developed like CrystalSpace or one of the many commercial 3D engines which would presumably require a hefty licence fee for commercially developed or sold applications, what exactly do we pay for the use of the SDK (as an existing DBP user) for developing programs that are legitimately sold?

At the moment, I'm asking myself the question that where would myself and other developers stand if we use DBP v5.7 and Ian's interface library and sell a product. Is this legal or would I get slapped? Obviously the interface library has gone, but it still exists on my machine.

My main query is this... My current project (XScape) uses DarkBASIC Professional as the basis for creating the startup exe which calls into the main system's DLL file. The DLL file is compiled using IanM's interface library. Now in the current scheme of things, if I sold this application, is this legal? If not, then it seems that the next step is to wait for the TPC SDK. Will the TPC SDK provide the same functionality as what IanM's inteface library does now? If not, does this mean that I have to pay £90 in order to continue development of XScape before I can sell it.

Can you see my dilema?

Paul.


Home of the Cartography Shop - DarkBASIC Professional map importer
MikeS
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Posted: 1st Dec 2004 07:17
Quote: "Question for Mike S
Will we have to pay again for the TPC's ?"


I'll assume that was headed towards MikeJ.



A book? I hate book. Book is stupid.
(Formerly known as Yellow)
cybernetic wraith
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Posted: 1st Dec 2004 08:00
Saying it doesn't take much to break even is great but lets say a lesser developer with virtually no marketing budget tries to sell his games at $5 a piece. It would take quite a few sales to break even on the dev tool. And what happens if I hit one of those bugs? I'm not going to sell a product that contains a workaround that may not work the next version down the road as I don't have the budget or time to support that. Now maybe it is reasonable for a shareware license, but that also depends on thier definition of "shareware". Maybe they don't consider a pay-by-month rpg shareware and I'd then have to pay royalties. I'm an independant developer that loves to create freeware but I can't afford to host a server and take all the bandwidth hit, and I certainly can't get myself a billing and sales department to deal with TGC and royalties.

Considering the competition that the DBP engine faces, especially in the C++ market, and limitations of the engine as it is right now, thats is a pretty steep price. It is especially steep witht he consideration that 5 months from now TGC may create another C/C++ SDK with the extra features I was promised would be added to DarkSDK, and then make me purchase that too.

They don't offer any true licensing contract that says I'll have access to a support representative or some kind of assurance of version compatibility and most of all: TGC is not licensing a true SDK or Engine. If they were then it wouldn't just be a LIB we'd link to when compiling, it'd also have access to much of the actual engine code so we could change it if we needed a specific feature etc.

With this said the price is not as great as you might think and therefore makes the investment risky. Its a big investment considering a bug or engine-change at any moment could halt your development until they finally release a fix (if they release one), and by that time after all the hours put into the project it's more than just $180, and every day you can't release your project to market is another day you could ahve been getting closer to breaking even or turning a profit.

I feel that I have valid concerns and I hope they are addressed.
Mr Anderson
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Posted: 1st Dec 2004 08:13 Edited at: 1st Dec 2004 08:17
If you miss read what I stated I'm very sorry. If you read what I said carefully, I was not complaining at all about anything. I was just stating my confusion because of the products naming. In addition I state that the fact that Dark SDK is listed as a product (I have not been to the site in a few days) should have made it evident to me that it was not what I thought it was.

You can expect no flaming from me.

I just wanted to express that I was hoping for something else. And I did note that this would be a great product for all concerned. Nevertheless, I’m comfortable with (playing with) DB Pro, and I personally don’t think I will require this product (currently). Sorry if I wasn’t clear I did not expect to get snapped at. I just wondered if anyone might have misunderstood what the product was going to be.

IDIC (Infinite Diversity Infinite Combinations)
cybernetic wraith
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Posted: 1st Dec 2004 08:17
I think he was talking to me

We're all so confused!
Mr Anderson
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Posted: 1st Dec 2004 08:18
Oh ..... I feel silly now.

IDIC (Infinite Diversity Infinite Combinations)
Proteus
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Posted: 1st Dec 2004 08:55 Edited at: 1st Dec 2004 09:08
@APEXnow:
Quote: "Will the TPC SDK provide the same functionality as what IanM's inteface library does now?"


I don’t believe that they’ll release a (free) TPC SDK with the same functionality as the interface , as they did get rid of it(the interface) in the first place...


Though I still hope for a miracle

Love is like Pi - Natural, Irrational, and very important
APEXnow
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Posted: 1st Dec 2004 09:19 Edited at: 1st Dec 2004 09:23
Proteus, this is my point, if the TPC SDK won't expose any of the DB functionality, then for TPC addons, will only be able to do nominal stuff with the C runtime libraries and Win32 API etc etc. Otherwords, exactly what you can do now but without IanM's interface library to expose the DB command set. So I can only assume that the TPC SDK will allow some limited access like memblock management, but that's about it. This is just an assumption and I'm most likely wrong.

I'm happy with the idea that to create a C++ based application which still requires DarkBASIC Professional to compile in the DLLs but still gives me access to the DB command set from within the DLL, like you do with IanM's interface library which is what I figured the TPC SDK would be for. The difference between DarkSDK and the TPC SDK is this: The DarkSDK generates applications by linking to the .a or .lib files necessary for what you use in the application. The TPC SDK links to a .lib exposing the functionality, but still requires the original DarkBASIC Professional DLLs to be compiled into the .EXE. So you still use your original DBPro product purchased. Obviously the DarkSDK is faster because it removes the thunk layer that IanM's interface library required to do the job. The TPC SDK still uses the thunking layer, and also requires your original DBPro compiler to work.

To me, this is how it should be and the TPC SDK should not be sold, but a mere extension to the existing DBPro language and compiler.

I can't justify paying £90 just yet for using a product that I can already do using my current version of DarkBASIC Professional and IanM's interface library for plugins etc [EDIT], but I will emphasize that I know the DarkSDK is not used for plugins, but for standalone applications developed in C++. But this isn't the issue. You can still develop applications in C/C++ as a DLL which is compiled into a DBPro .EXE as if it was a TPC. So what's the new TPC SDK going to be for. I dunno <shrug>

Paul.


Home of the Cartography Shop - DarkBASIC Professional map importer
David T
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Posted: 1st Dec 2004 15:56
DBPro, with no royalty fees: $90

DarkSDK, same but with probably less code due to adsence of DBPro compiler etc. - shareware licence: $180

Seems a little off. So, due to all the work put into making the compiler for DBpro, you halve the price?

Also - DBpro has no license fee, but DarkSDK, the same engine, does. Is this because you're targeting a different audience, I suppose?

Get 15 new commands, all the date / time commands left out of DBPro for free!
DOWNLOAD PLUGINS HERE: http://www.davidtattersall.me.uk/ and select "DarkBasic"
Mike Johnson
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Posted: 1st Dec 2004 16:26
Cellbloc James - email Rick Vanner for discounts on more than 1 licence - rick@thegamecreators.com

Mike
Mnemonix
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Posted: 1st Dec 2004 16:40
Meh, stop whingeing everybody .

Personally I think that using the SDK is going to be great and will order mine ASAP. Its a great intro to C++. Im sick of seeing people talking on this thread, asking why this and why that and at the end of the day, if you dont like it, nobody is forcing you to buy it.

[awaits flame]

The 3d chat is coming...
Rights For Traffic Cones!
Jeku
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Posted: 1st Dec 2004 16:47
@Mike

Does DarkSDK support C#.NET? Thanks


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Rob K
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Posted: 1st Dec 2004 16:54
@Mike

Does DarkSDK still provide access to the globstruct? If so then it will presumably still be possible to use other plugins with the SDK:

- Load the plugin using LoadLibrary
- Call ReceiveCoreDataPtr with a pointer to the globstruct
- Get plugin function pointers using GetProcAddress
- Call plugin functions via these pointers.


BlueGUI:Windows UI Plugin - All the power of the windows interface in your DBPro games.
Mike Johnson
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Posted: 1st Dec 2004 16:58
The SDK does not support C#.NET.

You can access the globstruct.

Mike
Ron Erickson
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Posted: 1st Dec 2004 21:44
DarkSDK was a complete suprise to me when I read the newsletter yesterday. As the creator of EZrotate, I would love the extra cash flow from people having to purchase it again to work with DarkSDK, but my darn morals get in the way
Personally, I don't believe that someone should have to pay twice to use add-on plug-ins with DBpro AND DarkSDK. As long as a good protection method can be worked out, I'd be willing to make the required code additions to make EZrotate available for both. Maybe in return, TGC could help out the official TPC developers with further discounts on DarkSDK (worth a try ). lol

WOLF

EZrotate!
Tokamak Physics Wrapper!
Erick G
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Posted: 1st Dec 2004 21:49 Edited at: 1st Dec 2004 21:50
Wolf, are you gonna convert your TPC ? I bought yours btw.
Richard Davey
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Posted: 1st Dec 2004 22:00
Wolf - TPC developers (that we actively resell for) have no need to buy Dark Game SDK. Just email me.

"I am not young enough to know everything."
- Oscar Wilde
Ron Erickson
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Posted: 1st Dec 2004 22:11
@Rich:
...alrighty then. Thanks

@Erick:
As I said in my post above, as long as there is a good protection method worked out, then I definately would like to. DarkSDK was a COMPLETE suprise to me yesterday (when I read the newsletter) and I have yet to talk to Mike about what would need to be done to convert. I also have NO idea what TGC's feelings are about making it available for both at the single price. My intentions are good. We will see what is worked out.

WOLF

EZrotate!
Tokamak Physics Wrapper!

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