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Geek Culture / [LOCKED] noahs ark totally debunked

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indi
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Posted: 27th Mar 2005 16:59
while at home this arvo I caught a glimpse of tony danza in a crappy cable movie who builds an ark.

anyway i got to thinking.

Even if they managed to get 2 of every mammal and land based creature the ark would be kilometres long.

think about this as an example

there are about 15000 endangered animals today.

lets use this as a small fraction of the animal species to demonstrate the ludicrus ideal.

15000 X 2 = 30000 animals with say 3 metres on average per cubicle to house them thats 90000 metres on one side or 90 kilometres if im not mistaken.

this doesnt factor in the food to feed them or the ability to transport the animals from all ends of the earth.



Absurd if you ask me, religion is for people who dont want to think.

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ionstream
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Posted: 27th Mar 2005 17:06 Edited at: 27th Mar 2005 17:27
[Message removed to prevent flaming]

Quote: "there are about 15000 endangered animals today."


This is a statement based on evolutionary theory which does not coexist with Christianity.


Exeat's Edit: We'll have none of that, unwarranted flaming just because someone doesn't conform to your views is not allowed. Don't start flame wars for no reason.

MX7
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Posted: 27th Mar 2005 17:19
Personally, I feel the existence of Tony Danza's career is proof that there is no God.
indi
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Posted: 27th Mar 2005 17:26
that number is based on animal societies who post information regarding endangered species numbers.

evolutionary theory is a little different to the facts of how many animals are endangered in this current time, you silly billy.

IF we knew the total number of animals that dwell on the land it would be a much higher number and make the ark even larger.

not even factoring in the gaps to move around the ark to feed the animals which could be seen every 2 cubicles.



the particles that make me up come from space dust and debri, formed by suns. All elements on the perodic table are generated by suns over the suns lifetime. I dont know where suns come from or how they come into existance but i could always see the latest ideas and research.

I live on earth but I also live in a bigger universe and since my stuff came from space its alright to think other lifeforms when im dead will borrow and use my elements.

as for going to hell, I highly doubt it.

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ionstream
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Posted: 27th Mar 2005 17:29
I didn't say you can go to hell, i said you can burn in hell.

Right now, I don't feel like getting more involved, because it's just going to be a back and forth argument that ends in a lock. So I'll cut to the chase and say:

Matt Rock, shut the **** up.

indi
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Posted: 27th Mar 2005 17:32
lol it was just an observation, nothing to lose faith over if u have it but when u break it down if u do with things like i do its a bit of an ask to assume noahs ark actually existed.

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Jeku
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Posted: 27th Mar 2005 17:40 Edited at: 27th Mar 2005 17:42
Quote: "Absurd if you ask me, religion is for people who dont want to think."


Hehehe, the classic "scientist" versus "faithful believer" debate. Speaking as someone who comes from a faith background, even if you can't calculate it on paper, God can make anything happen because he's, well, God. I don't expect a non-believer to understand and if you don't, then I don't really care

Do you think you're the first one to do the math of the ark and consider it impossible?

By the way, scientist and believer don't have to be mutually exclusive. Some of the smartest scientists I have ever met believe in a supreme being in one form or another.

EDIT:

And why would you need 3 metres on average to house every animal? Thousands of animals could fit happily in a smaller space than that.


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Ian T
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Posted: 27th Mar 2005 17:50
I don't want to start a fight here, but isn't the person who posts "religion is for people who don't want to think" the one starting the flamewar? If an average user made this, it would've been a mod's business to lock it on the spot.

mouseweb.net

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Jimmy
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Posted: 27th Mar 2005 18:00 Edited at: 27th Mar 2005 18:02
Yeah, Mouse, that's what I was thinking, but then again, maybe I WASN'T thinking. Interesting...

Oh and as a proud Rockist I say to you, ionstream, you shut the ****s up.

indi
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Posted: 27th Mar 2005 18:10
ill lock it if u want? doesnt bother me im not above the users here.

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Eric T
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Posted: 27th Mar 2005 18:23
I say there is no Ark and there was no Noah. Just another fib... another fib.

Jimmy
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Posted: 27th Mar 2005 18:23 Edited at: 27th Mar 2005 18:25
I is stupid. Me no thinky.

Actually indi, if you want to take in a Christian's POV for a second.. if POSSIBLE, the flood occured relatively soon after the fall of Adam & Eve, so you could say that the number of species of animal was fairly small in comparison with today, besides, we don't know if they took every single species of animal on the earth, they certainly didn't take the fishies. The purpose was to kill the wicked, so my own personal view is that they took all that could not survive the flood.

Oh and this should riggle your spine gobs, they took SEVEN of each "clean" animal. Compute that, oh great thinker man.

Everyone, disregard Eric. He was fibbed on as a child.

Eric T
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Posted: 27th Mar 2005 18:27
Well whos job was it to decide which animals were clean and which weren't? And how do we know that their standards of clean weren't up to my standards of clean?

Jimmy
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Posted: 27th Mar 2005 18:30
I think they checked the same way they checked for gender.

Eric T
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Posted: 27th Mar 2005 18:31
Well did they take chickens?

Jimmy
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Posted: 27th Mar 2005 18:33
'Course they took chickens!

But they only took a pair because they're dirty.

Eric T
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Posted: 27th Mar 2005 18:34
What are these clean animals you speak of... I am quite curious. Name a few.

Jimmy
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Posted: 27th Mar 2005 18:39
Heck if I know, sheep was probably one of them.

It just says seven of every clean animal, no specifics.

Eric T
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Posted: 27th Mar 2005 18:41
Well how the hell are we supposed to belive something like that when they don't even describe the system they use? It'd help the credibility a bit.

Jimmy
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Posted: 27th Mar 2005 18:48
Haha, maybe because it's not something worth getting stuck on.

Eric T
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Posted: 27th Mar 2005 18:56
Or maybe because it didn't happen? Can't count that out can ya?

Jimmy
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Posted: 27th Mar 2005 19:04
Heh, if that's what you want to believe, you certainly can't.

I personally don't base my faith on the accuracy of the story of Noah's ark, I believe it happened, but what i've said so far is about all we know about it.

Jeku
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Posted: 27th Mar 2005 19:58
Quote: "Well how the hell are we supposed to belive something like that when they don't even describe the system they use? It'd help the credibility a bit."


It's called research. The Bible specifies how to tell if an animal is clean or unclean. You can tell by the hoof of the animal, or whether it's a scavenger on the bottom of the ocean, etc. etc. All it takes is a search.


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Raven
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Posted: 27th Mar 2005 20:47
You know it says 2 of each type of animal, not every damn breed.

For example there is what, 4,000 breeds of cat. You only need 2 cats though, who cares if it is a tiger or a manx.

Also there is NOTHING in the bible against evolution. It just notes that God created Adam in his own image. For all we know God could be a monkey... in which case we could've then evolved from his original design. After all that is what every creater is designed to do, evolve to survive in thier environment.

Also if you look back to the prehistoric times, with the Wooly Mammoths and such, there were a damn sight less species running around crowding the planet (remember they'd just be killed of trying to evolve again) ... as such it isn't inconcieveable.

The Ark would've had to have been quite large, and iirc the bible does state it's size. It would've been something quite remarkably large for the time, perhaps equal to a Merchant Vessel of thew 1600s is what I remember hearing once.

Those things were capable of holding over 500tonnes of cargo.

While there are alot of plot holes in the story, it can to a degree be explained away given your wish to learn how possible it is / was.

I still don't think the bible should be taken as a historically accurate book. After all you know that a legend is never the same as a real story... but the basics of the story tend to be real.

I wouldn't be surprised if Noah created an arc and saved just the animals he could find around his local area. I mean if you think about it, in say just your local area, you might have some sheep, cows, goats, dogs, cats, rabbits, etc...

As people didn't travel as much until sea-faring became really popular or really feasible, i mean look at history and it was only in the 1,300 that it was begining to be used for migrating purposes. Long trips before then were generally unheard of, even more was actually leaving shore.. ships used to just hop from port to port rather than actually go out to sea.

I mean when you think about it, until the Romans (100bc-ish) people really didn't see animals of other nations. Like when Julius Ceaser used Elephants in Britain, many of the locals were scared because they'd never seen such beats before.

As such an elephant wouldn't be on thier lists of known animals.

Try not to take everything at exacting values is all I'm saying.
I mean fgs they believed they lived for 900-1000years at the start of the bible, when in reality 900-1000 luna months (60-70yo) was more likely. Remember the Christian years are different to other nations, and not what they originally had in the bible... it is more likely they would've gone by the passing of the moon to mark a year. As it would've been seen as a complete revolution of the universe around them.

:: coughs :: I shouldn't date any more Archeologist lol
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Posted: 27th Mar 2005 20:50
Warning: We are now entering Flamebait Territory, only several vertical miles downhill until we reach Lock City. Enjoy the rest of your ride.


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Posted: 27th Mar 2005 20:54 Edited at: 28th Mar 2005 00:50
Most of the Bible cant be taken literally - aside from problems in tranlating from Hewbrew and Greek, each story, which would have been written down or passed on by word of mouth, would have had inaccuracies, falsehoods, mistakes and mis-understandings added - my favourite being Genesis.

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Richard Davey
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Posted: 27th Mar 2005 21:43
I think anyone who actually takes the story of the ark at complete face value (i.e. how did they build a boat that big, how did they get all the animals, yadda yadda) is missing the point of the story somewhat.

The Bible isn't a boat building DIY manual, quite frankly I doubt there even was a boat in the sense we think of them today, it was just a way to get the (far less educated back then) people to understand and try and comprehend the true meaning of the tale, which has precious little to do with a floating zoo at all.

It's easy to scoff at the principle of it, but to do so takes a wide wide walk around the core of the tale and concentrates on the minutiae. Still, it wouldn't be the first time

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Ace Of Spades
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Posted: 28th Mar 2005 00:33
If you look at all the details in the bible you will find that MANY things do not add up. MANY things to not flow together or connect. SOME things do but MANY do not. I wont go any further because religious debates are not mentally possible to win, people will DIE before changing their ideas on religion.

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Posted: 28th Mar 2005 01:19
well,the ark took 100 something years to build, so it would have to be big. The bible also states the size of the ark (its in cubits so 1 cubit is about the spand of your arm.) now, i dont know what the ark looked like. infact it could be a huge wooden plank for all i know (as long as it floated, its all good right?)

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David T
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Posted: 28th Mar 2005 01:49
IMO, most of the bible is symbolism and stories to teach people values in life written by a number of authors ages ago.

They collated these materials into a handbook on how to live, and invented a way to live by these rules, namely religion. At this time they probably also thought up the notion of divine beings to explain away normal happenings such as monsoons, etc.

*gets flame retardant shield out*

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Oraculaca
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Posted: 28th Mar 2005 02:54
I agree with the David T philosophy

ionstream
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Posted: 28th Mar 2005 03:45
Ha! I've got a flame suit.

Noahs Ark is on Mount Ararat, which is in Russia I believe. It is split entirely in half.

David, is the story of Jesus just a story on good morals?

empty
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Posted: 28th Mar 2005 03:53 Edited at: 28th Mar 2005 03:54
Quote: "Noahs Ark is on Mount Ararat, which is in Russia I believe."

Mount Ararat is in Turkey. But I don't think you'll find an ark there.


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billy the kid
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Posted: 28th Mar 2005 03:58 Edited at: 28th Mar 2005 04:05
Actually the bibilical Jesus is quite a different man (notice I said man) than the archealogical (spelling?) Jesus. So yes the story of Jesus is based on a true story like many books and movies, not an accurate recounting of his life. And the point of the story is to teach good morals, yes.

EDIT:
For you people who think the bible should be taken literally, please read Livitcus (spelling?). It is one of the first 5 books of the bible and has a bunch more commandments than the 10 most people know about. I think if you followed all those commandments, you would eventually end up in jail or a mental institution.

Also did you know that when they formed the bible, a bunch of guys got together and voted what should and should not go into the it?

"Hey Joe what do you think of this Romans book?"

"Sounds good to me."

Book written by God my butt...
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Posted: 28th Mar 2005 04:04
God is only existant to make man feel good. God was only created in man's head so he would not feel so alone. God was created so people would have something to rely on that would make them feel good. This is what / who god is. This apply's to all god's no matter the religion.


***runs into flame-proof base***

David T
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Posted: 28th Mar 2005 04:29
Quote: "David, is the story of Jesus just a story on good morals?"


From what I can remember, he teaches a few good lessons doesn't he?

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adr
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Posted: 28th Mar 2005 04:32 Edited at: 28th Mar 2005 04:40
What I'm about to say, I say in a totally objective manner. I have no hidden agenda, no alliances and so I'd like to think that my opinion is fairly neutral.

I don't mind religion to be honest. It's not for me, but if it makes you feel you're living your life to the fullest, if it gives you something else to consider in your everyday life, then good on you. If on your deathbed, you have no regrets and you die with a smile on your face, then I can only wish to have that peace of mind. If you want that in your life, then I am not going to stop you. What pisses me off is when people devalue my life, claim that my life is worth less (worth less, not worthless) because I do not practise any particular religion. I've had this happen to me and it frustrates the crap outta me. Anyway, in response to that, I usually ask that person to consider the cause of every single war in history and going on now. I'll bet you it either started, or carries on because of person A claiming their religion is correct and person B's is incorrect. How can I possibly support something that in the past has caused so many deaths? How can I be a better person affiliating myself with those people? Now I'm not just talking about the religious far right who stage lynchings; The Crusades wasn't organised by a small militia. Also, religion has this habit of twisting history. All you Christians just celebrated Easter right? Well, Easter is a Pagan Ritual - it's all about the moon phase. Do your reading people, and you'll find that Pagan Rituals (has a negative connotation doesn't it?) are all very in touch with the Earth, and that their religion was subject to ridicule and a smear campaign by the Christians. That's why their symbol (The goat/star in a circle) is now the "symbol of satan".


I guess you could say I'm a socialist. Not in a political sense, but in a religious way; I'd like to make this world a nicer place for having me in it. I don't do that by "letting jesus into my heart". I do it by paying taxes, helping the environment where I can and being economically active. Someone else that I never meet could get a heart transplant because I work... and that makes me feel good. I could sponge around, live off the state and do generally nothing with my life, but I feel I have a social responsibility. If everyone did sweet FA, then what would happen to the world?

So in short, I have no qualms with religion on a personal level. It's when people stand in the street and criticise others because they are wrong and will "burn in hell" (for example). I don't think that's very humanitarian.

-- big edit - more ranting --

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Ace Of Spades
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Posted: 28th Mar 2005 04:36 Edited at: 28th Mar 2005 04:43
Quote: "So in short, I have no qualms with religion on a personal level. It's when people stand in the street and criticise others because they are wrong and will "burn in hell" (for example). I don't think that's very humanitarian."


That is definately true. I could care less what other people practice for religion as long as they do not start telling me I am wrong for not feeling the same way.

PS:
Quote: "[Flamebait]"

Hmmm...bait usually means to lure something. So to lurea fire, you would probably need wood, or paper, or something. So to be correct...shoudn't it be:
Quote: "[Flamerbait]"

notice the 'r' ?

Fallout
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Posted: 28th Mar 2005 04:48
The bible used to be "fact", until we started to disprove it's stories, and then those stories became "metaphors". Stories continue to be "fact" until we disprove them and relegate them to "metaphors". Seeing as we can never disprove god or the big boys of the bible story world, those will always be "fact".

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Posted: 28th Mar 2005 04:50
Quote: "Seeing as we can never disprove god or the big boys of the bible story world, those will always be "fact"."


Well they are not fact if we cannot prove them true either

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Posted: 28th Mar 2005 04:50
As an amateur scientist, I look for the evidence first. I've seen statements of "how" it could happen without the evidence to show that it "did" happen.

By evidence one must first postulate that when all is put together, if a story doesn't fit the evidence, the story must be wrong. It's an objective outlook which has advanced civilization.

The believer is told by the Apostle Paul to "question all things". It is more probable that the entire Bible, Torah, Koran, etc. are just stories since the evidence does not support any of them.

As Mark Twain once wrote: "Faith is believing in something that you know ain't so." I prefer the proof over the stories.

Now, as any good scientist and skeptic will tell you: "I'm willing to be proven wrong." Science allows room for error. Religion can't without admiting it's wrong. Therefore, it has to resort to magic to explain which then again answers "how" without showing proof.

I'm willing to be proven wrong. All I need is one shred of irrefutable proof.

With regard to Noah and is big boat and Jehovah / Allah / God destroying the world... I could have done a better job of punishing the wicked without destroying the animals, plants, fish, bacteria, bugs... I would have just made the wicked disappear and left the innocent animals, plants, fish, etc. alone.

Ah but then I'm not as intelligent, merciful or as loving. So for that I shall burn forever, or most likely just rot in a grave sometime in the future.

Steele

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ionstream
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Posted: 28th Mar 2005 06:53
An old Chinese story tells of a great flood of which few survived.

If you care to look, the specifications for the ark are in the Bible. A model of it has been built, and it is virtually unsinkable.

Jimmy
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Posted: 28th Mar 2005 06:56
Quote: "That is definately true. I could care less what other people practice for religion as long as they do not start telling me I am wrong for not feeling the same way."


And I don't have a problem with people who are not religious as long as they do not start telling me who or what God is. You people say the religious are the problem, always hating on your for being wrong, but who is always the first to tell someone they're ignorant, dillusional or that they "don't want to think"?

You think we haven't heard all this already? That we don't struggle with our faith daily? You've taken the easy way out and congratulations for that. I just hope that one day you can respect people with religious beliefs. And don't try to turn this on me, because if you know me at all, you know that I respect anyone who will take a stand despite their views, but just don't be a hypocrite about it. Don't say it if you don't want to hear it.

Teh Go0rfmeister
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Posted: 28th Mar 2005 06:57 Edited at: 28th Mar 2005 07:08
not got time to read hwat everyone said, so i just reads the first one. basically, geographers/scientists whatever say there are signs that there was a great flood in that region during that time, and obviously back then the middle east was basically the whole world as far as civilization goes, or so it seemed.

on another point, (looking briefly at the third post down):
Quote: " Personally, I feel the existence of Tony Danza's career is proof that there is no God."


what really annoys me is that people attempting to disprove christian beliefs are not only (1) doing it (even though im not a christian), but also (2) using the same arguments as a basis to reject all other religeon with it.

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Posted: 28th Mar 2005 06:59 Edited at: 28th Mar 2005 07:02
Quote: "but just don't be a hypocrite about it"

Well I was just stating my views...everyone else was so i figured...why not. By no means am I trying to make you or anyone else believe it. That is just what I personally believe.

On another note...
All the people I see who say they are christian seem happy alot and they always have something to rely on and some greater thing to live for. I actually wish I could believe in some sort of god in my life. In fact, many times I have tried to really believe in it...but I just have a way of thinking that makes this impossible for me, I think the only thing that will let me believe in god is if im about to die and see some sort of "vision" or something that saves my life...
o well.

Jimmy
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Posted: 28th Mar 2005 07:01
David T
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Posted: 28th Mar 2005 07:05 Edited at: 28th Mar 2005 07:07
Quote: "Seeing as we can never disprove god or the big boys of the bible story world, those will always be "fact"."


There's a difference - facts can be proven. Until then it's just a hypothesis.

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ionstream
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Posted: 28th Mar 2005 07:08
Lol "God - The Hypothesis"

Teh Go0rfmeister
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Posted: 28th Mar 2005 07:10 Edited at: 28th Mar 2005 07:26
Quote: "All the people I see who say they are christian seem happy alot and they always have something to rely on and some greater thing to live for. I actually wish I could believe in some sort of god in my life. In fact, many times I have tried to really believe in it...but I just have a way of thinking that makes this impossible for me, I think the only thing that will let me believe in god is if im about to die and see some sort of "vision" or something that saves my life...
o well."


i feel the same sometimes, maybe its just a teenage thing or something, sometimes i feel it being a test of faith, but i just get on with whatever it is religeous im doing and feel satisfied a few hours later that i actually did it.

Quote: "I'm willing to be proven wrong. All I need is one shred of irrefutable proof."
point taken (see above)

Quote: ""Absurd if you ask me, religion is for people who dont want to think.""

would you like to explain how? i consider myself a thinker, and im pretty sure most philosophers are religeous in one way or another.

and about the "clean" animals stuff:
In islam there is the belief that some animals are "clean" and others are "dirty" obviously not literally, but surely if you could THINK you'd know not to take it literally, its obviously just how translation and language have changed since the creation of islam/christianity/judaism. You may hear it otherwise known as haram (bad) and halal (good), and these apply to practically everything day to day (not just animals) (and no its not dogmatic, it is on a scale, with things in between, like "mubah" meaning it has no religeous value at all, such as eating or sleeping etc, or theres "sunat" meaning if you do it you will be benefitted but not be punished if you dont do it, to name a few points on the scale)
in the case of animals:
you may notice a lot of muslim families own cats, this is because it is considered "sunat" to own a cat, which is probably where the old tales of good luck come from, or have similar backgrounds.
it is bad to drink from the same water that reptiles have drank from. these are 2 examples i can remember...

Jeku
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Posted: 28th Mar 2005 07:37 Edited at: 28th Mar 2005 07:44
Quote: "It is one of the first 5 books of the bible and has a bunch more commandments than the 10 most people know about. I think if you followed all those commandments, you would eventually end up in jail or a mental institution."


We don't have to follow those commandments anymore after Jesus was born in the beginning of the New Testament. That was one of the major points

Before we all start talking out of our butts about what the Bible says, why don't we actually read the text? http://bible.gospelcom.net/passage/?search=Genesis%206-9;&version=31;

It specifies an exact size of the boat, and Noah's exact directions. And yes, he took 2 of EVERY kind of unclean animal... every kind of bird, everything. That includes 2 of every kind of cat. And he took 7 of every kind of clean animal.

It also says that God is the one who shut the door and locked them in the ark, so it's easy for people who believe in God to understand that he made it all possible. I mean, we are the same people who believe he created everyone of us, so obviously it's easy to squeeze all the animals into a big boat.


EDIT:

Here's the King James version: http://bible.gospelcom.net/passage/?search=Genesis%206-9;&version=9;

@Raven - Men did live to be a thousand years old back then... and their years were roughly the same length as ours. In Noah's time God said that man will not live to be past 120 years. It's in the text I referenced if you're interested.


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