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Perhaps, but Microsoft have a trademark on Virtual Memory as if it was something they invented for Windows. Not that anyone really calls it that, but still does make it a less generic term.

As I said above, the implimentations are pretty different.
That's really what was being argued.

I mean it's like saying "Engine" for your car.
Both Diesel and Petrol engines work differently, and require different fuels; but for the most part they are doing the same job in a similar mannor.

The differnce in how they're doing it do means you get different types of performance in different areas.

For example Diesel is great for huge load vehicles providing more torque at lower speeds, while Petrol is better for highly maneouverable vehicles.

One will use more fuel, than the other in order to go the same distance, but the one that uses more will be able to get there quicker.

Each Engine has a different method. Advantages and Disadvantages.

what the crap raven how did u get a dual core cpu which i beleive isnt even buyable yet donated to u

not to bash linux but why do my programs take like over 30secs to load in most cases or is it just because i run linux on a virtual pc(microsoft vpc which is tons faster than bochs btw)

^_^ by asking nicely



Can't say I've ever used MVPC, but Linux generally takes longer to load things. It makes up for the boot time with being able to access programs quite a damn sight quicker once loaded.

Speed-wise overall your not going to see a great deal of difference, but less overhead does mean you can squeeze a few more frames out of Doom 3 or Half-Life 2.

@Raven; Most of your examples are just pure 'not reading the instructions' -

Cyrix processors usually come with BIOS (specially made for Cyrix based processors) which contains 'anti-virus'; This system is old, and usually buggy - that's the cause of the crash you kept mentioning (my brother has a 233Mhz Cyrix II) . Oh yeah, and the
IA32 you talk about is correct, however most distro's come will shell instructions at install time) to enable these processors to work correctly (I think its called a Bridge2120_Ia32d fix or something).

Oh yeah - the IBM drivers thing ; IBM ironically make alot of hardware, and because they boot Linux tech. themselves, alot of linux users buy hardware from them. Therefore, essentially, IBM has the best Linux driver supporty, since it develops hardware that is primarily developed for Linux.



Missed a bit of the chat here; which distro?



He was susing it as an example (Command.com (was/is) technically windows - the rest is simply software. Same for Linux. The Kernel+shell are Linux, the rest is software)

duh thats true with any good os
tell me if anyone has ever seen real software built into the kernel
and yes command.com is the dos/win9x(i think) kernel but not nt have u ever look in the system32 dir
there is a little file called nt32krnl.exe(i think thats it or at least soemthing like that) which i would bet is the kernel

Command.com has [censored] all to do with Windows, it's the MS-DOS Kernel, plain and simple.



SuSE doesn't ACTUALLY have any instructions past installing it.
Tech support are about as helpful as a fork for eating jelly.



Trend Anti-Virus which has again [censored] all to do with the manufacture it's a feature of Pheonix/Award BIOS. It has nothing to do with the Processor, it simply protects your BIOS and MBR from being rewritten by subvert system events.. not complex and part of every BIOS now.

Apart from anything else, a) I turn it off because it kills access speed (which with Cyrix processors isn't something you want), and b) even with it on multiple OS installed under other processors (AMD/Intel)



Bolloks, I've yet to find any distro that actually talks you through what to do at install time. Either you have something ridiculously idiot-proof like YaST, or expecting you to understand the complexities of install instructions via SH, like Red Hat.



IBM openly support Linux, because they have thier own build. They don't provide drivers though; and thier own Linux aside from the unstable beta isn't free. Your not legally allowed to use thier drivers for anything other than WebSphere.



Gentoo, Debian, Mandrake, Red Hat, SuSE, Knoppix (core build), Lindows, and various minor distros. The problem isn't with individual distro's the problem lies soley with the Kernel itself, which they ALL use close to an identical build of.

While I could correct the errors for each processor, I don't really feel like spending a few days tinkering with the source that imo should run using i386 PMode to provide what the distributions says. i386. Most builds now are IA32, which is i686; this causes errors with non-comforming processors, particularly lesser known brands.

Transmeta is a new one that is dodgy because it'll work on some, crash others and perform at half-speed on others. Simply because of the drivers in use.

Before you start spoting off your 'vast' 3months of knowlage to me, try to bare in mind I've probably been using Unix-Based OSs longer than you've known what a computer was. The problems I've experience haven't been 'user-error' or 'mis-informed setups'.. How the hell can it be a problem with something I've done if the damn Distro's reboot or hang the machine trying to detect the processor?

How many people knwo hte linux source inside out?

Honestly I think this argument about bugs being fixed faster is a bit weak:

- people could try and fix things that others are fixing at the same time, leading to continuity problems

- if hundreds of people are all working on different versions of code you essentially end up with hundreds of versions of one product - a nightmare for getting a 'fixed' version out to users if there's 1,000 'fixed' versions

- often those who understand the code written best are those who wrote it

David T, my point exactly!

Once again, its an Example!! I don't personally think command.com is a good example of what Merranvo was trying to explain - but he meant that alot of the 'actual' OS isn't what you see when you use it - its software you are running not the OS itself



Are you running/trying to run SuSE 9 (9.3 update)? I'm aware that this isn't supplied with manuals etc. - however one of the DVD's does have it hidden (unless you downloaded it, which case I have no idea)




It does sound like [censor] what I'm saying doesn't it? I didn't quite word it properly - a large majority of motherbaords with Cryix processors use the AV protection [and these specific Cyrix-based (processor) boards have buggy AV]. If you turned it off, fair enough.



I'm using RedHat Linux 9. Upon installation, a screen of writing appears giving you extra runtime options. Then you just press return to boot annaconda+Linux into GUI install




Oh... ok. So you are trying to say the (working) Linux drivers that came with my IBM InfoPrint printer are illegal? (Which specify 'Any functioning UNIX/GNU/LINUX platform..' as system requirements)



I'm not exactly an 'old-hand' at Linux (2+ years so far) but ending your reply with something like that doesn't really inspire confidence - if you burst in attempted insults etc. (implication) then how can you be expected to survive with Linux? Linux isn't like Windows [yet]
and is all about perserverence (sp?).

Some things are totally illogical, I know; when I was setting up RH Linux on my PC, it kept freezing up after checking my USB root-hub. I eventually found a solution (Uplugging my USB mouse allowed it to continue) and this is the way you need to work with Linux. I appreciate that your problem is much more complicated than simply unplugging a mouse - but come on; Linux is still young, and its going to be a while until you see intuitive setups and Hardware compatability that is as fluid as a gymast - but chill.

How many people know the source of any large project inside out? Why would you want them to?



All of those reasons apply to any large project with lots of people working on it. How do you think Microsoft do it?

Doesn't that defeat the object of Linux? To be an alternative?

Raven I've been installing Linux on my machines since around 1996-97, and the only hardware problem I've ever had was a refresh issue on my IBM ThinkPad (which was solved by editing a config file using a monitor) and getting support for my wireless LinkSys USB receiver was very difficult. Other than that, I've NEVER had a problem with any hardware. And pretty much any distro I've tried (and I've tried many) have help guides all the way through install. Even installing Fedora Core through text-mode was simple in itself.

No such thing a s 'Cyrix-based board'.. they run on (Super) Socket 7, which most of the time support is only given because it's an x86 processor. Bios don't technically support them unless they're SiS, but then you get into the whole fact that until recent SiS Chipsets were worth [censored] all. Too buggy and slow for anything really worthwhile. God did I remember those early MMX years with those horrible boards.



Unless you are using an IBM machine, yes. Read the GPL.
They're identical to EULAs not that Linux owners will ever admit that; basically tell you what you can and can't do with the source.



Doesn't that defeat the object of Linux? To be an alternative?[/quote]

Why yes, yes it would.
In-fact the whole Linux community as it stands 100% defeats the point in the operating system; the fanboyism about this change is just stupid.

Linux was designe to be small, portable, and easily adapted for your needs. It was never designed for home users, or as 'an alternative' to Windows. Leave that to Apple and Amiga (yes they ARE still going), Linux is for cost effective business solutions on custom systems where applications of widescale Operating Systems would be too much and the integration of Unix would cost to much to be worth while.



Microsoft has a share knowlage and bug database, allowing every employee to give advice on a problem that is found in order to help. Generall bugs are often fixxed far quicker internally but having a complete database of problems, plus past problems and solutions allow debuggers to do thier job very quickler and efficiently.

Microsoft have recently opened this technology up to the public as TheGameCreators have been noticing recently after being accepted into the Longhorn Developer/Beta Program. It is by far one of the best systems you can think of for any development team, no matter the size. You are effectively given in a consise space the combined programming knowlage of thousands upon thousands of seasoned professionals.

Wiki, and CVS logs don't even come close.
Check it out, as I believe it's currently mainly available publically for the .NET 2.0 and Visual Studio 2005 platforms.



Yeah, the thing is more the hardware being used more often.
A large majority of people who use Linux are using basically mid-low range current technology.

This is the market mainly catered for because these are the machines being used. Because there is no such thing as a 'Beta' program from Linux, you only get feedback from those actively involved in development.

It's pretty much like, say TGC have several machines in thier office. Each of them have either ATI or NVIDIA cards.. so they start making a shader engine and test it internally.

The only experience they will have is with those two manufacturers. Let's say that one of the new users to DB/P tries shaders on thier S3 card. Because it wasn't in development, and the large population of the community doesn't have any of these cards... more often than not a bug will occure because of small incompatibilities.

As the user is new, they'll just decide they'll probably either decided 'DB/P isn't work my time as it doesn't work.' or they will ask on the forums at which point most people or atleast the one's that are listend to will be like 'well it works on my computer', at which point the said newbie again will get fed up and leave it alone.

It's the same deal with Linux. As it's designed be a small minority around a small very specific group of computers often developing purely to standards.. this causes issues.

Microsoft on the other hand don't, mainly because they lay down the framework; and the companies themselves are told to make thier own hardware compatible. Yet the support back'n'forth for this makes it possible and easy for them to achieve this.

While Cyrix is an IBM, the built it around thier x86 Standard, not Intels.

The problem here is much like when your trying to run things in a browser. Like Cascade Sheets; While sure Explorer and Mozilla have support for the full range of the commands, Mozilla impliments it in a way that combines all of your classes together like

Table Class -> Row Class > Link Class

Where-as Explorer only displays the base class and makes changes based on bottom up.

Link Class -> Row Class -> Table Class

this simple flip of the rendering; while using the same keyword causes very different results.

In a web-browser this just means incorrect rendering, but imagine that with your processor. It'll crash, quite spectacularly.

I mean why do you think Windows automatically wants you to report any error that happens? Just for kicks?
It's so a solution can be provided if it is a common error, and if it's new they'll know that X Hardware using X Util trying X Operationg = Crash.

They can adapt thier systems. This is just something Linux doesn't have or even have the community with which to support.

But given what Linux is ment for, why would they ever need such a thing?

Just to broaden the scope of this post a little bit, can anyone give an example of a free OS that is neither Linux nor Windows (basically a completely seperate OS).

This may sound like a stupid question, but what is the best way to get into OS design? Is there a course, or online reference guide for beginners?

BeOS / BeOS Max.
It's a very good operating system that was suppose to compete against Windows Millennium Edition; unfortunately advertising (or lack there of) killed it in it's tracks.

Still it has some basic support, and DirectX. Worth a look because it definate was cool.

I think it's still at BeOS.SourceForge.Net but I'm not sure.
It's completely Open Source, and BeOS Max (the next version of BeOS) iirc has to be compiled to use. It was never released, unfortunately but still pretty cool.

Best place I've found for OS Design is SourceForge and OSDever.Net both have some excellent examples and articles. Definately help provide the first steps in to Operating Systems.. especially as some are very small and easy to understand.

I like OSDever because they're making thier own in-house OS, but unlike others like HamsterOS or FreeDOS; they're basically using it as a commmunity project. Much like Unix was back in the day.

BonafideOS, it does sound interesting but I've yet to try it.

BeOS is completely closed source and currently owned by Palm and (supposedly) the YellowtTAB Zeta team. BeOS Max is a patch for BeOS Public Edtion which is free (and open source) but the OS itself is still completely closed source. Also, BeOS Max was NOT Be Incorporated's next version of BeOS. That was Release 5.1 and YellowTAB suppposedly owns it.

If you're interested in BeOS (which was one of the coolest OSes IMO) go to http://www.bebits.com and you can download the personal edition and the Max patches there. If you know you want it you can also buy YelloTAB Zeta (which is the "real" extention to BeOS) from http://www.yellowtab.com/ but I always thought it was too expensive to warrant me purchasing it.