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Geek Culture / [LOCKED] Only just began...

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Keaz
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Posted: 29th Jul 2005 18:20
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I've had an interesting programming experience lately. I was working on my editor and getting bored from the tedium. I already knew how I wanted to do a lot of things but it was the tedium of implementing it that was boring me. I like to learn and I thought I had basically mastered DB Programming. What I didn't realize was that a whole new level of programming was about to open up for me.

I had decided from the beginning to eventually convert my editor to Windows DLL function calls (I wasn't even sure it could be done). I started first with simple functions like Sleep and Beep. What I've know come to realize is that I now understand the syntax of C++. This has come to pass because while working with these functions I found myself refering more and more to the online MSDN Library. I have been studying the functions from there. I can now call any function of the API I might need.

In the end I've realized my travels into the world of windows programming has only just began... Next stop the DirectX DLLs.
(I wonder what they can do)

Breaking Stuff=Fun!,Bug Testing<>Fun!, Bug Testing=Breaking Stuff, so...
Bug Testing=Fun! Hmmmm....
DOES NOT COMPUTE! SYSTEM MALFUNTION!
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OSX Using Happy Dude
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Posted: 29th Jul 2005 18:21
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Quote: "(I wonder what they can do)"

Make life not worth living...

AtomZ - its got an A. Its got a Z. Now its just needs U
Blog:http://spaces.msn.com/members/BouncyBrick/
Web Site:http://www.nicholaskingsley.co.uk
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David R
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Posted: 29th Jul 2005 18:26
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Quote: "(I wonder what they can do)"


Give loads of f*ckin errors that don't make sense.

For instance;
Quote: "The oprand = is not recognised by this internal library"



[url=www.lightningstudios.co.uk][/url]
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Nicholas Thompson
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Posted: 29th Jul 2005 18:27
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Quote: "Make life not worth living..."


Please dont tell me they are the source of Big Brother broadcasts?!?!

My Website:
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Keaz
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Posted: 29th Jul 2005 18:36 Edited at: 29th Jul 2005 18:39
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LOL... Well, I just posted this as a whole new area opened up to me and will lead me to C++ which is when I will get the SDK (hopefully it will be closer to completed by then). This has made the DB to DBPro w/Blue to C++ an easier and more logical progression for me going slowly from higher to lower level programming. Before where I am now I din't even understand what a pointer was.(Yeah, It seems stupid to me now). I also think moving on to bigger and better things is what happen to Walaber with the Newton wrapper.

P.S.:
My editor now has a new purpose to help make the transition easier for the next gen of DB programmers.

Breaking Stuff=Fun!,Bug Testing<>Fun!, Bug Testing=Breaking Stuff, so...
Bug Testing=Fun! Hmmmm....
DOES NOT COMPUTE! SYSTEM MALFUNTION!
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Jeku
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Posted: 29th Jul 2005 22:22
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DBP is not even close to C++'s style--- I don't really see the comparison. They're completely different ways of thinking.


My "everyone else has one so why can't I?" blog: http://www.jeku.com/blog/
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Keaz
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Posted: 29th Jul 2005 22:27 Edited at: 29th Jul 2005 22:27
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Yes but I'm learning C in order to continue my current work on my IDE. I'm not sure how I made the transition exactly, but I've been reading C/C++ code and understanding it. I also see why many other people's apps looked so overly complex to me.

Breaking Stuff=Fun!,Bug Testing<>Fun!, Bug Testing=Breaking Stuff, so...
Bug Testing=Fun! Hmmmm....
DOES NOT COMPUTE! SYSTEM MALFUNTION!
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Dave J
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Posted: 30th Jul 2005 10:28
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Quote: "Make life not worth living..."


I see you found the source of your cynicism as well.


"Computers are useless, they can only give you answers."
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NanoBrain
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Posted: 30th Jul 2005 13:35
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Keaz,

Are you trying to learn C/C++ only by looking at the code? If so, I would say that its not a very effective way to do so. Would not you rather go out and buy a book for $30.00 which will teach you more correctly, and effectively?


+NanoBrain+
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Keaz
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Posted: 30th Jul 2005 15:13
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Becuase I don't have VisStudio and I'm trying to access the API. I not trying to learn C++ but I am picking it up quite quickly. It's like living in a foreign country. You may not be trying to learn the language spoken there, but you will pick up a few words necessary for your job and things like that.

Breaking Stuff=Fun!,Bug Testing<>Fun!, Bug Testing=Breaking Stuff, so...
Bug Testing=Fun! Hmmmm....
DOES NOT COMPUTE! SYSTEM MALFUNTION!
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Merranvo
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Posted: 30th Jul 2005 23:43
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Nanobrain (somehow that feels too flamable).
Most programming books teach you very little per page. If you really want to learn a language, get the commands, then sit down and read other peoples code and figure out how it works. + the fact that you don't lose $30 on something you'll only read twice.

Blasting, Shooting, and Maiming. Aspects of Modern Gamming.
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Jeku
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Posted: 31st Jul 2005 00:42
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I disagree. If you want a job in the C++ sector, you need to read the books. Looking at code will teach you only so much. There's a reason why, in all the programming companies I've worked for, the programmers keep C++ reference manuals on their desks at all times.

Looking at code won't teach you terminology, for one thing.


My "everyone else has one so why can't I?" blog: http://www.jeku.com/blog/
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Keaz
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Posted: 31st Jul 2005 02:21
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I know the terminology from working with other languages and reading books on BASIC, but now I'm learning the WinAPI at the moment. I think I've pretty close to mastered it in under a week. If the MSDN Library on "Win32 and Com Development" came in a book form I would buy it. I going to look for where MS sells the CDs for it. I don't need a tutorial book I just need a reference manual.

Breaking Stuff=Fun!,Bug Testing<>Fun!, Bug Testing=Breaking Stuff, so...
Bug Testing=Fun! Hmmmm....
DOES NOT COMPUTE! SYSTEM MALFUNTION!
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Jeku
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Posted: 31st Jul 2005 09:06
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The terminology in C++ is vastly different than BASIC. C++ is an OOP language, and you need to have a different mindset to fully grasp it. Anyone can use C++ to output a few things to a screen. But to build a scaleable framework, game, or useful application takes more knowledge than just knowing the commands.


My "everyone else has one so why can't I?" blog: http://www.jeku.com/blog/
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PowerSoft
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Posted: 31st Jul 2005 09:46
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C++ isnt like BASIC. Its harder. The reason BASIC was developed was to allow anybody (virually) create a computer program without having a ComputerScience Degree....(just an exaggeration re:computer science but some C++ can be very painful)

Always available to help
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Dave J
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Posted: 31st Jul 2005 09:52
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You won't be able to pickup multiple/virtual inheritance or polymorphism by reading code, what's more you'll probably end up with bad habits such as not utilising encapsulation or catching exceptions (most people never address thrown exceptions). I doubt you'll learn what any of the generally accepted heuristics are, or many of the specific design techniques that are commonly used.

Reading code will teach you very basic C++, but you won't know the 'right' way to do anything and it won't even get you close to learning some of the more advanced concepts.


"Computers are useless, they can only give you answers."
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Keaz
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Posted: 31st Jul 2005 15:15
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All three very valid arguments... but at the very least it has served me as an introduction to C++.

Breaking Stuff=Fun!,Bug Testing<>Fun!, Bug Testing=Breaking Stuff, so...
Bug Testing=Fun! Hmmmm....
DOES NOT COMPUTE! SYSTEM MALFUNTION!
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Merranvo
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Posted: 31st Jul 2005 20:37
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True is all of them, but the question is do you learn more by doing something, or by reading something? If you learn the simple commands, you can build up to the more advance commands by extrapolating what the program is doing. Of course you have to go gradually in program complexity. But it is a proven fact that people will learn better if they do something, then if they are just told it.

Come on now, raise your hands and show me how many of you actually did the hello world.

*everyone's hand raises*
oh no...

Blasting, Shooting, and Maiming. Aspects of Modern Gamming.
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Keaz
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Posted: 2nd Aug 2005 00:21
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I did! (Raises hand), when I was 6.

Breaking Stuff=Fun!,Bug Testing<>Fun!, Bug Testing=Breaking Stuff, so...
Bug Testing=Fun! Hmmmm....
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indi
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Posted: 4th Aug 2005 02:46
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good luck mate, your attitude towards new languages will get you further then hating aspects of the language which will make it harder to learn and enjoy.

If no-one gives your an answer to a question you have asked, consider:- Is your question clear.- Did you ask nicely.- Are you showing any effort to solve the problem yourself &#63743;
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Merranvo
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Posted: 4th Aug 2005 02:50 Edited at: 4th Aug 2005 02:58
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Okay... indi I am confused... what do you mean 'attitude'?

Oh... and indi...
Quote: "evil animated GIFs or large flash animations are the only no-nos." - Rich

Blasting, Shooting, and Maiming. Aspects of Modern Gamming.
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Jeku
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Posted: 4th Aug 2005 05:54
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Oh... and Merranvo...
Using the mod image as your avatar is not allowed, and I've removed it once again. If you continue to add it back, we will lock it to something you won't like


My "everyone else has one so why can't I?" blog: http://www.jeku.com/blog/
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Merranvo
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Posted: 4th Aug 2005 07:35
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I really didn't consiter it the mod image, it is inverse of that mod logo... unless, perhaps, a noob came accross... Might as well draw the letters MOD in paint and then ask a noob wither they beilive I am a mod. jk.

I didn't really even know why it was changed, but now I do... Aww, and I was having so much fun with that logo...

Blasting, Shooting, and Maiming. Aspects of Modern Gamming.
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Raven
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Posted: 4th Aug 2005 07:54
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Can't you just lock him instead?

Quote: "I can now call any function of the API I might need."


I'd stand by this being impossible from DB/P at the present.
It's easy enough understanding what is needed, but some limitations on DB/P mean you can't simple use functions as and how you see fit.

The limited pointer support for one is a major hurdle while WinAPI programming. As you don't get direct access over the Message Queue, you can achieve a much slower way fo getting it and working around it. That method itself is again limited. Not to mention some of the functions just are too large to be supported.

DB/P is a good stepping stone as it does teach a number of programming things. Though moving to C++ is a step up in design and syntax. Given your moving from a Procedural to Objective languages. Of course you can still use it in the same way but there are issues with using it exactly the same.

DirectX itself is a lesson in Object Programming, as unlike WinAPI it is designed for this task. So your looking at some of the most complicated aspects of Microsoft and C++ programming you'll ever face.

Getting DirectX working isn't so much an issue though, getting it work well is. Getting it to run how you want is a challenge. Creating Engines with it isn't as simple a task as you'd think, it takes a lot of understanding of how each aspect works. Hardware and Software.

This isn't to scare you off it, but you seriously want to do all your work for DirectX in C++ if that's the route your looking to go down.

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Keaz
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Posted: 4th Aug 2005 15:41 Edited at: 4th Aug 2005 15:43
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Quote: "Not to mention some of the functions just are too large to be supported"

I've sucessfully used functions that took 20+ parameters.
Quote: "The limited pointer support for one is a major hurdle while WinAPI programming."

I've used multiple type of pointers without issue.

As far as the message que goes you can "steal" access to it from DBPro. DBPro only needs to handle very few messages. How the rest are handled can be user defined. This is the area I'm currently looking at because I need my app to handle the paint message(Some controls aren't updating properly, rebar and statusbars don't update with window resize, only after you drag them).

I realize working with DirectX is complicated. What I'm doing is basically like learning a new language from a translation dictionary, but this won't teach grammar/syntax. But I will be using and calling many of the same functions in DBPro I would be using in C++. I know I'm not actually programming in C++, but the code I need is already there I'm just using what I already know to access it.

Breaking Stuff=Fun!,Bug Testing<>Fun!, Bug Testing=Breaking Stuff, so...
Bug Testing=Fun! Hmmmm....
DOES NOT COMPUTE! SYSTEM MALFUNTION!
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Raven
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Posted: 4th Aug 2005 15:52
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Quote: "I've sucessfully used functions that took 20+ parameters."


Bollocks

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David T
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Posted: 4th Aug 2005 16:05
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Ever year or so I think "hey, I'm good at coding. I'll learn simple DirectX". That API is cursed! Even getting hte simplest thing working required tens of functions that, to be honest make no sense at all to anybody trying to learn

Another thing that really did make my head spin at first was how VC++ compiled my DLL. I thought if I had a header that declared a few functions and included it in my .cpp files then I'd have access to them. How wrong could I have been!

"A book. If u know something why cant u make a kool game or prog.
come on now. A book. I hate books. book is stupid. I know that I need codes but I dont know the codes"
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empty
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Posted: 4th Aug 2005 16:10 Edited at: 4th Aug 2005 16:10
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You can't use API functions that require callbacks, for example.
As for DirectX DLLs, you won't be able to succesfully call any of those functions from DBpro.


Play Nice! Play Basic! Version 1.08
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Raven
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Posted: 4th Aug 2005 16:56
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Quote: "Ever year or so I think "hey, I'm good at coding. I'll learn simple DirectX"."


heh, that should be the subtitles to a picture of Bill Gates on it at work.

In truth, DirectX is quite easy to understand. Provided you understand the way the language works. Otherwise it's just horribly complex. Daunting at first, but once you've understood some of the concepts and got some things going the rest really starts to fall in place.

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David R
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Posted: 4th Aug 2005 17:01 Edited at: 4th Aug 2005 17:03
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Talking of Mr Gates, just take a look at this MOV movie file of a Windows Me presentation. lol

Probably been all over the net, but I still find this very funny.

(2mb Mov file)

" Im gonna fire this guy after the presentation.... "

[url=www.lightningstudios.co.uk][/url]

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Raven
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Posted: 4th Aug 2005 17:24
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when did Rich make the file uploads larger than 1MB?

I personally prefer this one of the origin of Ctrl-Alt-Del

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David R
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Posted: 4th Aug 2005 17:31
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@Raven; When the server was changed. 10mb now

Whoah, Bill had a killer stare then (with the crtl+alt+delete thing)

[url=www.lightningstudios.co.uk][/url]
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Raven
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Posted: 4th Aug 2005 17:39
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heh... "I may have created it but I can't take all the credit, Bill here made it famous." best quote ever!

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Keaz
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Posted: 4th Aug 2005 19:06
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@Empty
Callbacks? As I'm new the C++/OOP I'm not sure what this is could you enlighten me?

Is this where the system asks the app for info and the app is sopposed to provide it?

Breaking Stuff=Fun!,Bug Testing<>Fun!, Bug Testing=Breaking Stuff, so...
Bug Testing=Fun! Hmmmm....
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empty
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Posted: 4th Aug 2005 19:54
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Callbacks (or callback functions) are required by some API functions. It's just a pointer to a user defined function and has nothing to do with C++ or OOP. However native DBpro doesn't support function pointers.


Play Nice! Play Basic! Version 1.08
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Keaz
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Posted: 4th Aug 2005 21:56 Edited at: 4th Aug 2005 22:12
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Well. Hmmm.. that could be an issue, but I haven't seen Callback need for any API functions that I've use so far.

Breaking Stuff=Fun!,Bug Testing<>Fun!, Bug Testing=Breaking Stuff, so...
Bug Testing=Fun! Hmmmm....
DOES NOT COMPUTE! SYSTEM MALFUNTION!
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Jeku
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Posted: 5th Aug 2005 06:00
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Quote: "I've sucessfully used functions that took 20+ parameters."


I don't believe there are any useful functions that take 20+ parameters. In fact I've never even seen one before :-P Speaking from a sane point of view, the function should be broken down into 3 or 4 different functions.


My "everyone else has one so why can't I?" blog: http://www.jeku.com/blog/
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Keaz
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Posted: 5th Aug 2005 18:33 Edited at: 5th Aug 2005 18:39
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Well actually only 12 (CreateWindowEx) and then I didn't send it all the parameters. Some take less parameters but take specially structured variables which you can use memblocks for. The 20 was just a pointer to a structure that had 20 elements not the same thing. My mistake I got it confused I thought it needed 20 parameters, but I looked at the code again.

Breaking Stuff=Fun!,Bug Testing<>Fun!, Bug Testing=Breaking Stuff, so...
Bug Testing=Fun! Hmmmm....
DOES NOT COMPUTE! SYSTEM MALFUNTION!
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Raven
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Posted: 5th Aug 2005 21:07
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Quote: "Well actually only 12 (CreateWindowEx) and then I didn't send it all the parameters."


CreateWindowEx takes something like 18 parameters, CreateWindow takes 12 iirc. It will refuse to run unless you atleast pass a blank parameter for each of them.

DarkBASIC Professional can currently only I/O 9 Parameters.

So I'm going to stick by my previous statment of 'Bollocks'

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dark coder
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Posted: 5th Aug 2005 21:23
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Bollocks


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Keaz
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Posted: 5th Aug 2005 22:34 Edited at: 5th Aug 2005 22:41
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Here is CreateWindowEx running:



This means all parameters don't need to be passed when calling some DLL functions.

P.S. Thanks Dark Coder I thought internal functions where limited the same way so I never wrote any with more than 9 parameters.

Breaking Stuff=Fun!,Bug Testing<>Fun!, Bug Testing=Breaking Stuff, so...
Bug Testing=Fun! Hmmmm....
DOES NOT COMPUTE! SYSTEM MALFUNTION!
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Xolatron old
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Posted: 5th Aug 2005 23:13
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Raven, give Keaz a chance - he has done it. I've seen it with my own eyes. DBpro seems to simply pass dll parameters as a memblock with pointers for strings. If you use one memblock, it works. I've done a little simple OOP (in Java), and really it is all programming; if you can think in BASIC you'll be able to learn to think in any language.

Besides, you don't even need memblocks, I've successfully passed a string to a dll through a pointer with NO MEMBLOCKS.

-Xol

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Keaz
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Posted: 5th Aug 2005 23:22
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@Raven
Finally if you don't believe me...
Here's CreateWindowEx's Syntax from MSDN
http://msdn.microsoft.com/library/default.asp?url=/library/en-us/winui/winui/windowsuserinterface/windowing/windows/windowreference/windowfunctions/createwindowex.asp
12 Parameters
CreateWindow only has 1 less. That means 11.It's Here:
http://msdn.microsoft.com/library/default.asp?url=/library/en-us/winui/winui/windowsuserinterface/windowing/windows/windowreference/windowfunctions/createwindow.asp

The only difference between the 2 is the "DWORD dwExStyle" parameter.

Breaking Stuff=Fun!,Bug Testing<>Fun!, Bug Testing=Breaking Stuff, so...
Bug Testing=Fun! Hmmmm....
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Xolatron old
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Posted: 5th Aug 2005 23:24
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Yes, I have Keaz's program calling 12 parameters from user32.dll on my computer, and everything is working properly

-Xol

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Raven
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Posted: 6th Aug 2005 01:14
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:\\ That isn't documented.

Quote: "Yes, I have Keaz's program calling 12 parameters from user32.dll on my computer, and everything is working properly "


Take your head out of his arse, while his solution works it isn't passing all 12 parameters.

Quote: "Raven, give Keaz a chance - he has done it. I've seen it with my own eyes. DBpro seems to simply pass dll parameters as a memblock with pointers for strings. If you use one memblock, it works. I've done a little simple OOP (in Java), and really it is all programming; if you can think in BASIC you'll be able to learn to think in any language.

Besides, you don't even need memblocks, I've successfully passed a string to a dll through a pointer with NO MEMBLOCKS."


Show me.

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Raven
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Posted: 6th Aug 2005 01:15
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Quote: "



Bollocks"


That the hell does that have to do with DLL Functions?
DBP Functions can be up to 255 Parameters.

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Xolatron old
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Posted: 6th Aug 2005 01:38 Edited at: 6th Aug 2005 01:40
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Raven, look at this thread and download the working rebar source:
http://forum.thegamecreators.com/?m=forum_view&t=58010&b=6

I don't have my source that uses make memory and pointers with me right now, but it sends the EM_REPLACESEL message successfully. (So that my IDE has 'To UPPERCASE' and 'To lowercase' functions on the edit menu)

-Xol

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Keaz
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Posted: 6th Aug 2005 01:42 Edited at: 6th Aug 2005 01:43
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@Raven
I corrected myself here:
Quote: "Well actually only 12 (CreateWindowEx) and then I didn't send it all the parameters. Some take less parameters but take specially structured variables which you can use memblocks for. The 20 was just a pointer to a structure that had 20 elements not the same thing. My mistake I got it confused I thought it needed 20 parameters, but I looked at the code again."


I wish you would read completely a thread your arguing with.

You said:
Quote: "It will refuse to run unless you atleast pass a blank parameter for each of them."

My code I posted didn't have all 12 parameters in it. My point is you can work with functions that need more than 9. If you send them 9+ a null/0 parameter and they allow you to set the extras afterword. I haven't yet ran into any where this wasn't the case Working with the API.

As far as messaging goes. It's best to let them be handled internally and just send the needed message to the right control when necessary. Recieving broadcasted messages is the only current thing that is only semi functional. I'm am working on code for getting better message access. Whether or not it fully possible I have yet to determine. So far I can only steal user input related messages. Not things like "WM_CLOSE" or "WM_SIZING" etc...

Breaking Stuff=Fun!,Bug Testing<>Fun!, Bug Testing=Breaking Stuff, so...
Bug Testing=Fun! Hmmmm....
DOES NOT COMPUTE! SYSTEM MALFUNTION!
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Raven
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Joined: 23rd Mar 2005
Location: Hertfordshire, England
Posted: 6th Aug 2005 01:48
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Quote: "I wish you would read completely a thread your arguing with."


Why don't you try re-reading WHO is quoted.

Quote: "My code I posted didn't have all 12 parameters in it. My point is you can work with functions that need more than 9. If you send them 9+ a null/0 parameter and they allow you to set the extras afterword. I haven't yet ran into any where this wasn't the case Working with the API."


Because as you mentioned ALL of the parameters are sent, but those over 9 are BLANK, which WAS my point. So why don't you take your own advice.

Quote: "As far as messaging goes. It's best to let them be handled internally and just send the needed message to the right control when necessary. Recieving broadcasted messages is the only current thing that is only semi functional. I'm am working on code for getting better message access. Whether or not it fully possible I have yet to determine. So far I can only steal user input related messages. Not things like "WM_CLOSE" or "WM_SIZING" etc..."


That's limiting yourself on what your capable of doing. Callback functions are really essencial for a number of operations.

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dark coder
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Joined: 6th Oct 2002
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Posted: 6th Aug 2005 02:20
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@raven

sure put on a show for the cameras you know when you compile it it uses dll`s


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