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DarkBASIC Professional Discussion / VOTE for updated help files

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Sjakie
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Posted: 15th Jan 2006 22:25
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Hey everyone

DBpro is getting upgraded every time. All sorts of new Commands are added, but the help files arent updated. When you need info about new commands, there is nothing available.

so who votes for updating help files?
Maybe if we all discuss this a lot, they will update the files... and if they don\'t, maybe we can start up a project for updating the help files by ourselves

Please respond guys, it might do the trick

Juzt a dude who likez progging - Me loves RTS games
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IBOL
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Posted: 15th Jan 2006 22:28
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yes of course the help files should be updated.

it is silly to release a product that people pay for
that doesn't tell you what it does and how to do it

vote: yes.

(and buying the new dbpro book is not a valid alternative to developer responsiblity)

bob

Starlord Omega: SCI-FI 4X TBS
http://forum.thegamecreators.com/?m=forum_view&t=61670&b=8
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Gamefreak
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Posted: 15th Jan 2006 22:41
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Yeah, they definitely should be updated. And maybe they could explain the pathetic "help" files for the 3dmath commands, which tell you no more than you could figure out from the actual command name...
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FINN MAN
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Posted: 15th Jan 2006 22:55
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YES!!!
And more Tutorials.
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PowerSoft
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Posted: 15th Jan 2006 22:57
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I vote that TGC already know this!

They know and it is being worked on...

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IanG
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Posted: 15th Jan 2006 22:59
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..or so they say - they started it over a year ago and they have nothing, that we have seen, to show for it


amd athlon xp 2600+,1280mb,FX 5200 128mb,200gb,xp pro sp2
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David T
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Posted: 15th Jan 2006 23:03
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No use is trying to stir up some sort of uprising. Been done before I'm sure they're working on something. Wasn't somebody actually writing replacement ones?

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Darkbasic MADPSP
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Posted: 15th Jan 2006 23:06
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@DavidT

Why don't you write some

@Everyone

Yes it would be good if it got updated

http://www.users.zetnet.co.uk/csimon/spain03/days2_3.htm << where i went for my holiday or www.portaventura.es
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SirFire
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Posted: 15th Jan 2006 23:15
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I vote yes. And I suggest everybody come back everyday and vote yes again. When this thread reaches 1000 posts maybe they'll give us the file. It's not like a monumental task to update the friggin help file. One knowledgable person working eight hours a day could probably do it in under a week.

We should also do this for a new IDE too.

Sometimes you need a little uprising to motivate you.

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Mika
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Posted: 15th Jan 2006 23:16
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Hi,

Of course I vote 'yes' for an update of help files, as it is the langage documentation:
- update for new commands added.
- update of help content as sometime, there is nothing more than the name of the command and its input/output parameters.

In other words, more accurate and complete help to be released with the langage as a part of itself and not as optional items.

Mike
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Kangaroo2 BETA2
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Posted: 15th Jan 2006 23:17
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I vote yes - I frequently have to seacrh or post to find out how to use certain commands


Preorder EA here:http://forum.thegamecreators.com/?m=forum_view&t=67575&b=8&p=0
+ Model Pro out now in Program Announcements!
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Tapewormz
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Posted: 15th Jan 2006 23:21
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I'd like to see a CHM version of the help files. Much faster.

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Duffer
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Posted: 15th Jan 2006 23:30
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I vote yes - many new commands undocumented, more and more new 'hidden' commands again undocumented, upgrades with commands undocumented, expansion packs where you have to use a seperate source for the commands which is limited....

one F1 click for all commands (including expansions / add-ons) - far better - firstly it may encourage people to buy add-ons and expansions (ie. missed business opportunity), secondly the longer this goes unremedied the more badwill may be generated, thirdly - are TGC after new purchasers of DBPro and do they think that Help on commands as it is can be described as 'approachable', 'user friendly'?

in other words, I vote yes too...

and without developer diaries I vote yes to the community given something more substantial about upgrade and expansions progress than rumours and lies and the distinct 'mushroom' feeling...

sorry, excellent product, shame about accessibility and communication with the community (now)

a long time dabbler with DBC and DBPro with no actual talent but lots of enthusiasm...
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Tapewormz
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Posted: 15th Jan 2006 23:32 Edited at: 15th Jan 2006 23:32
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or...you could buy the book like I did... I'm getting volume 2.

*edit*
It doesn't cover undocumented commands.

MILKSHAPE3D VIDEO TUTORIALS
http://www.planetquake.com/polycount/cottages/blackboard/tutorials.htm
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Duffer
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Posted: 15th Jan 2006 23:37
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@ Tapewormz,

Excellent, you're sat there programming and you want a quick ref to a new command you're unfamiliar with - if it's 3d (which is likely) you'll have to wait for vol 2 to be published, if its some other command you can start flicking through several hundred pages - or you could just push F1 (if Help worked and covered all commands)...

(p.s. realise the book is excellent though)

vote yes, you know it makes sense...

a long time dabbler with DBC and DBPro with no actual talent but lots of enthusiasm...
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Sjakie
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Posted: 15th Jan 2006 23:43
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Okay, this is getting more hot

@ Moderator David T:
this is not really an uprise or the french revolution or something its more just to stick together to discuss this and find a solution for this.

@ everyone:
thanks for voting everyone, and for people who havent voted yet: what is an awesome program like DBpro without help files. How could people ever learn using these commands, without a nice help file that explains how things work.



And yeah call me 'bush' for this voting style i dont care ^^ i'm a fan of NOFX and they're an anti-bush band, and so am i... sorry, OFF-TOPIC

Juzt a dude who likez progging - Me loves RTS games
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David T
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Posted: 15th Jan 2006 23:55
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Quote: "@DavidT

Why don't you write some "


Why don't you?

Quote: "@ Moderator David T:
this is not really an uprise or the french revolution or something its more just to stick together to discuss this and find a solution for this. "



All I was saying was - it's not as simple as simply getting a few poeple together to vote and the TGC come up with help files. There's obviously got to be a reason why they can't just do that, otherwise we'd all have replacement sets by now

I know richardneail was writing some new ones, there's Jess' dbhelp site and the TGC books too.

What might be a way forward is simply going through the existing ones and adding more to them... pretty easy if you have an HTML editor - and it gives you a base to embellish so you don't have to come up with indices yourselves.

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jrowe
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Posted: 16th Jan 2006 00:40 Edited at: 16th Jan 2006 00:41
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I'd vote for yes, but I don't think it'll happen.

Quote: "there's Jess' dbhelp site"


Yes, but it's in a transition phases at the moment. No new commands can be added until the site is upgraded. It hasn't had any commands added since a while before U5.9, but it's still better than the official help-as it is. It's the resource I use.

http://dbp.tgchelp.com/index.php?nav=dbhelp

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For Fathers and Sons who enjoy wholy spirits.
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Don Malone
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Posted: 16th Jan 2006 02:35
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The application is prety good. The community is why I bought the program. The Help.....


It shows a lack of professionalism. I love TGC; I respect TGC, but not updating the help is inexcusable, and who knows the commands better than the people who wrote the program.

If I (if I were capable) or David T or any of the users wrote the new help system or file. How do we know it is complete or even what the developers intended. We don't have access to the developers notes. We don't know what the developer expects the command to do and what part of the command is best kept unused. That is why the company is responsable for the documentation instead of me. Well that and I dont really know anything

The help needs updating and needs to include all commands even if the The Game Creators addon is not installed ;may help sell another add-on maybe; so people can know what is going on and what is available. Myself; I would settle for the basic commands to be better covered. And about Jess's site. The internet is not always up. I should not have to wait for the internet to become available; you know how cable is; to find out more about a command if it is not included in the help.



Rant over, sorry. but that is how I feel.

In Memory of My Dad.
I miss you very much.
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Peter H
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Posted: 16th Jan 2006 02:51
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It would be nice but i don't think this thread is going to accomplish it...

"Hand over ze document"

"We make the worst games in the universe..."
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Zedane
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Posted: 16th Jan 2006 03:03
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I'm going to vote yes, and hope that this thread gains enough momentum to get TGC to release something..hopefully..


around here.. normal's just a setting on a hair dryer
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Grog Grueslayer
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Posted: 16th Jan 2006 03:35
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We have to take the law into our own hands. I posted an update to the help files that we do have to add which languages each command works in with a new index file that has all the links. It won't be that hard to make new html files for the undocumented commands and add those to the index. We can use JessTiculars page to see which commands are undocumented... we just need his permission first.

And a CHM has already been made for Pro... it's just not updated anymore (it's attached to this message).

JessTiculars Command List:
http://dbp.tgchelp.com/index.php?nav=dbhelp&subnav=all

Modified Help Files:
http://forum.thegamecreators.com/?m=forum_view&t=69615&b=1


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David T
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Posted: 16th Jan 2006 08:46 Edited at: 16th Jan 2006 08:47
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Quote: "If I (if I were capable) or David T or any of the users wrote the new help system or file."


Why am I writing it all of a sudden? Thanks DBMad j/k.

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Kenjar
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Posted: 16th Jan 2006 10:46 Edited at: 16th Jan 2006 11:08
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Taking the law into your own hands is all very well, but each and every one of us paid for DarkBASIC Pro, it is not unreasonable to expect decent help files. They must keep documents of these new commands themselves, and write down what has been created, or they would get into a big old mess very quickly.

On the website the TGC claims http://www.thegamecreators.com/?f=developer_information that the TGC website has over 250,000 hits every single week. Now assuming that 75% of those are just reoccuring hits from existing users, that's 62500 new user hits on the website, assuming that just 2% (1250) of that purchase their cheapest product (3D Game Creator) which is £22.99 that's an average weekly earning of £28737.5 a week, per year that is £1,494,350 and again, given that the developement cost of that product would have been paid for by now, and that normally it doesn't cost more then £5 to produce a CD, Box, and printing, that's £1,169,350 a year based on their own, lowest priced, inhouse designed product. They have on their site a great deal of media, and software, which they sell though their site for a modest commision, so it's safe to say, I feel that the TGC is making at lest £1,000,000 a year, and that's the worst case study I can think of. Given that, you'd think they could afford to hire someone to write up a help file and publish it with each new update.


Run before you can walk, always raise the stakes higher, always keep moving, because you never know who's catching up.
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Nicholas Thompson
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Posted: 16th Jan 2006 10:57 Edited at: 16th Jan 2006 10:58
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Quote: "it is not unreasonable to expect decent help files"


I dont recall anywhere on the box or on the website them claiming to have up to date help files.

I also have yet to have the "lack" of up to date help files hinder any projects.

I either use the forum search facility, or get on with my life

imho - this sounds a lot like people complaining about the help files "because they can".
Quote: "Good workmen never quarrel with their tools."

Don Juan, 1819 (I think)


http://forum.antiblog.com, http://thingy-ma-jig.co.uk/new/
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Kenjar
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Posted: 16th Jan 2006 11:29
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When you buy a copy of Microsoft Visual BASIC or Delphi C++ you get detailed help files, programmers using those products can't be expected to work to any degree of efficancy without correct and up-to-date documentation. Apart from anything else, clear, concise documenation defines the limits that DarkBASIC Pro can be used to do.

The simple fact of the matter is, that no programmer can operate without knowing what tools he has access too, and how they work. You might claim you can, but if you do, you're talking out of your backside. Also, these forums, while very useful, are not ideal. They are created by non-experts and experts alike. I just did a search for "bump mapping" a common game technology these days, and I just counted the number of posts for that subject. There are over 350 posts. That's a heck of a lot for a new and old users alike to wade though. And while ameture websites like jessticulars do exist they are hardly detailed and comprehensive on all accounts, and how exactly do we know, what is posted there is the whole of the command? I've forever hearing of additional little additions to commands, a third, fourth or fifth variable for a particular command. The simple fact is, that while I am not a very good programmer myself, I'd be a hell of alot better if I could just press F1, and read the damned help file, rather the spending hours upon hours on this bloody forum reading though alot of crap to get many hands on the single jem that makes everything clear.


Run before you can walk, always raise the stakes higher, always keep moving, because you never know who's catching up.
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PowerSoft
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Posted: 16th Jan 2006 11:44
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Valid Point but half the fun of programming is problem solving, for example finding he answer....

The other half is drinking coffee/beer/coke/etc,

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Hawkewood
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Posted: 16th Jan 2006 12:00
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No emoties - just words -

I'd certainly like to see updated help files that include info about all the commnds the system has. It doesn't have to have the detail of the programmers reference manuals, but it's got to hasve something. Is this a programming language or a puzzle?

Updated, inclusive help files will certainly not inhibit me from purchasing the reference manuals. If anyting, it's the other way around - I doubt I'm going to spend more money on a dev system that can't be bothered to document the commands built into the language?

And after all, this package which I paid good money for is called Dark Basic Professional. So what is professional about unsupported commands?

Sorry, this came out much more accusatory than I anticipated. But this has hit a nerve.

Hawkewood
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SirFire
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Posted: 16th Jan 2006 13:36 Edited at: 16th Jan 2006 13:41
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@kenjar, preach on brotherman, amen and all that.

Quote: "Quote: "Good workmen never quarrel with their tools."
Don Juan, 1819 (I think)"

In 1819 the most complex tools were probably hammers. Hammers are pretty much self-explanitory dontcha think?

Quote: "I dont recall anywhere on the box or on the website them claiming to have up to date help files."

Did you happen to see where they claim to have computer files inside the box? No, b/c you assume there would be computer files in the box, not some music CD. Whenever you purchase a development package you expect accurate, detailed and up-to-date documentation. Even if it's not up-to-date, at least have accuracy and detail in the documentation for those commands that HAVE been around for ages.

Quote: "I also have yet to have the "lack" of up to date help files hinder any projects."

Let me see ur game. U dont have it. stfu.

Quote: "I either use the forum search facility, or get on with my life"

Which is faster, pressing F1 or searching through ten thousand posts trying to find the syntax for a command? And if you choose to "get on with your life", you've just lost the oppurtinity to be enlightened.

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Don Malone
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Posted: 16th Jan 2006 13:38
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@David T - Just threw your name out there because you were one of the last posters at that point.

To Nicholas.
Quote: "I dont recall anywhere on the box or on the website them claiming to have up to date help files.

I also have yet to have the "lack" of up to date help files hinder any projects."


You never have to read on a package about up to date Help files. If is implied. I don't ever remember reading about it on a Microsoft or Borland box either.

and Powersoft - I agree that that is what programming is about, but not with one hand tied behind your back. Not with incompletely documented commands or even unlisted commands. How do you look up a command you don't even know exists?

Again I will state; Dark Basic Pro is usable because of this forum, and if I lost internet access; I don't know if I would continue with the program. I just think that the Help files need to be complete and list all of the variable flags.
I just wish they would give us an update so we know that they are still being worked on.

In Memory of My Dad.
I miss you very much.
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Nicholas Thompson
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Posted: 16th Jan 2006 14:41 Edited at: 16th Jan 2006 14:43
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Quote: "Let me see ur game. U dont have it. stfu."


Ok... and breathe!! Calm down, I wasn't aiming that at anyone. I just see a lot of people on this forum (and in life in general) blaming other people and other tools for their own issues.

If you want to see any "games" I have made, take a look at my site. Thats a list of the most complete things I have done and things I consider most usefull. I have about 60 project folders on my PC, most of which are incomplete or just idea's...

Seeing as you asked, some of the ones I'm quite "proud" of (in terms of fun rather than commercial value) are:
* GraviKill
* Primitive Maze
* Dodge the Fart
* 3D Gravity Screensaver

EDIT {
FYI: I also spend a lot of time in the challenges thread and I have also developed (and still am in the process of) a challenge database for all the challenges which, hopefully, will serve as some kind of codebase.
}

I understand that a lot of you feel passionately about the help files, and in a way I do too. It would be nice to have a more complete set, however it really isn't as bad (IMHO) as you make out. So, there are a few commands missing - they're covered in the forum. I'm sure I saw a link to an up to date keywords file somewhere... That'd solve the highlighting issue.

I also offered to help Jess out in the development of the new dbHelp site which, hopefully, will have an option to download a fully compiled CHM file and a replacement set for the DBP IDE.

Finally, as I said - I appreciate that people feel passionately about this - but please dont tell me to "stfu" otherwise my mouse will tend towards the abuse button...


http://forum.antiblog.com, http://thingy-ma-jig.co.uk/new/
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adr
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Posted: 16th Jan 2006 15:35
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Quote: "assuming that just 2% (1250) of that purchase their cheapest product"


Dude, if you can get 2% of your market base to part with cash, then you will be the hottest marketing guy in commercial business. In my experience with indirect or even direct marketing campaigns, you're lucky if you can get more then 1.5% of people to take you up on a FREE offer, let alone part with cash.

I would venture that about 0.5% of the visiters to the site download the free demo of DBP.

Back on topic, as someone else said - this whole unruly mob attitude is fruitless. Our best bet is to give Jess' site all the care and attention it needs.

[center]
iv tryed everything!!!!!!!!!! could u please just add The gun and shooting Code thats All!!!!!!!!!
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JerBil
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Posted: 16th Jan 2006 15:47
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As I recall, TGC said a lot about updating documentation
and help files about a year ago, and they would be working
on it, so I suppose they have not "forgotten."

-JerBil

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Duffer
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Posted: 16th Jan 2006 16:08
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@ JerBil,

Historians have a lot to say about when things are 'forgotten' and when they are not - you're right I recall the same sort of stuff posted on the forums - but time moves on and memory fades - if they havnt forgotten the community largely has - I will keep the faith for now though... but I still vote yes here - consider it a quiet and polite cough in the direction of TGC about a minor (for now - but growing) issue which is now longstanding ...

a long time dabbler with DBC and DBPro with no actual talent but lots of enthusiasm...
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_ RealUnReal _
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Posted: 16th Jan 2006 16:21
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I program in darkbasic because the darkbasic community rocks, the community is very willing to help folks with what ever command you are having dificulty with,
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Kenjar
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Posted: 16th Jan 2006 16:43
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Quote: "Back on topic, as someone else said - this whole unruly mob attitude is fruitless. Our best bet is to give Jess' site all the care and attention it needs."


How? Do you have dreams in the night were your magical 3rd eye imparts the deep and meaningful enlightenment of DarkBASIC Pro commands, command variables, command usage and all things commands? Because unless you do we are basically stuck until mike or another TGC programmer turns up and imparts a bit a meaningful knoweldge to us. Then, if someone can be bothered it might get put into Jess's wonderful website, or berried under hundreds upon hundreds of forums posts.

Jess has demonstrated how easy it is to create a website for this sort of thing. I actively run and maintain a website with an active Wiki, it really would not take much effort on the part of the TGC to setup an offical website and put there commands up on it every time they release and update to the language. Like I say, they must keep records themselves, any good programmer does.

Quote: "I program in darkbasic because the darkbasic community rocks, the community is very willing to help folks with what ever command you are having dificulty with, "


Yes the community is pretty good, but how can you ask how a command works when you don't know it exists? The best you can do is say "I want this done, which commands should I use?" on the forum and hope to heck that someone online knows how to do it.


Run before you can walk, always raise the stakes higher, always keep moving, because you never know who's catching up.
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MartinS
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Posted: 16th Jan 2006 16:51
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my vote... YES!!!!!!!
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adr
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Posted: 16th Jan 2006 16:51
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Quote: "your magical 3rd eye"

Please don't talk about my magical third eye.

However, point taken. Although we can document stuff till we're blue in the face, it doesn't matter if the development team insist on adding these mystery integer flags onto the ends of commands.

[center]
iv tryed everything!!!!!!!!!! could u please just add The gun and shooting Code thats All!!!!!!!!!
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Sid Sinister
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Posted: 16th Jan 2006 16:59
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YES! They need to do that!

I also think it's Bullcrap that they are making a DBpro book and SELLING it. If they want their product to thrive it would be wise to have HELP as open information. They could however sell it as a hardcopy but be free for everyone to download. Kinda shooting yourself in the foot if you ask me
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Van B
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Posted: 16th Jan 2006 17:10
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So if someone writes a book about DBPro they should make it available to download for free? - so should the same be true for every other language, or just TGC's?

As far as I know, TGC are working on the help files, what more can they do? - it takes ages, but so did DBPro, there's really nothing left but to be patient IMO.


Van-B

Put away, those fiery biscuits!
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Darkbasic MADPSP
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Posted: 16th Jan 2006 17:12
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Quote: "Quote: "@DavidT

Why don't you write some "

Why don't you? "


Well i might later


Quote: "Quote: "If I (if I were capable) or David T or any of the users wrote the new help system or file."

Why am I writing it all of a sudden? Thanks DBMad j/k.
"

lol

http://www.users.zetnet.co.uk/csimon/spain03/days2_3.htm << where i went for my holiday or www.portaventura.es
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David T
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Posted: 16th Jan 2006 17:56
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Quote: "When you buy a copy of Microsoft Visual BASIC or Delphi C++ you get detailed help files, programmers using those products can't be expected to work to any degree of efficancy without correct and up-to-date documentation. Apart from anything else, clear, concise documenation defines the limits that DarkBASIC Pro can be used to do. "


MS and Borland employ thousands. TGC employs, last time I looked, two full time developers who've worked on DBPro.

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SirFire
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Posted: 16th Jan 2006 18:44
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@Nicholas Thompson: I apologize for aiming at you.

I vote YES again.

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Acolyte Entertainment
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Location: Oregon, US
Posted: 16th Jan 2006 19:00
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Definatly! i vote YES! we need more tutorials and there are so many new
commands that need to be updated

O
what goes up. must come down.
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Nicholas Thompson
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Location: Bognor Regis, UK
Posted: 16th Jan 2006 19:13
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Quote: "@Nicholas Thompson: I apologize for aiming at you."


Tis ok, friends again hehe...

Dont suppose you looked at any of my evidence didja?

I kind of vote yes - however, I'd rather they put their efforts into other things, eg, fixing the system up, speeding it up, making the EXE's smaller, etc, etc...

You know what what be interesting for TGC... If they had a monthly development poll. There would be something like 10 options of things they can do (options can be suggested) and everyone signed up for the forum that isn't in n00b status get 1 vote. That way their loving public get what they want.

Its unfair on the masses if 10 people want a better manual when the majority would prefer a faster engine/smaller EXE's, etc, etc...


http://forum.antiblog.com, http://thingy-ma-jig.co.uk/new/
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Grog Grueslayer
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Playing: Green Hell
Posted: 16th Jan 2006 19:45
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Quote: "Taking the law into your own hands is all very well, but each and every one of us paid for DarkBASIC Pro, it is not unreasonable to expect decent help files. They must keep documents of these new commands themselves, and write down what has been created, or they would get into a big old mess very quickly."


Lets look at this in another way. If you sit down to watch TV and there's a chair blocking your full view of the TV... how long you you sit there complaining about that chair before you decide to get up and move it yourself?

I appreciate what TGC have done with Darkbasic. If they don't have the time to make new help files so be it. We (The Darkbasic Community) can easily make them ourselves. We can even make a thread where people can submit code snips to add for each command (something a lot of people complain about too). Whatever code snip is voted the highest gets added to the help file for that command.


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Richard Davey
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Posted: 16th Jan 2006 19:59
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Quote: "I also think it's Bullcrap that they are making a DBpro book and SELLING it."


We didn't "make" the book. The first we heard about it was when a copy arrived on our doorstep with a note asking if we wanted to re-sell it. Obviously we'd have been mad not to. If we owned it (and the rights to it) we'd have more control over how the content could be used. But we don't. So drop it.

Exit Planet Dust
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Sjakie
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Location: Netherlands - Delft
Posted: 16th Jan 2006 20:20
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Quote: "Its unfair on the masses if 10 people want a better manual when the majority would prefer a faster engine/smaller EXE's, etc, etc...
"


Or the majority is just too lazy to read this post, cause they would vote NO if they did




And some of you guys say that TGC is working on the help files. Well, i wanna believe that... IF THEY POST IT ON THE FORUM. Why isn't there a sticky thread about the progress of these help files, or a topic in the monthly newsletter or something?

Juzt a dude who likez progging - Me loves RTS games
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PowerSoft
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Location: United Kingdom
Posted: 16th Jan 2006 20:21
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Good point, well made. TGC would be absolutly stark raving mad NOT to update DBPro, I would bet alot of money that most purchases for TGC come from DBP and not DSDK or DBC. They therefore need to keep attention on themselves by keeping support of it.

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Richard Davey
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Location: On the Jupiter Probe
Posted: 16th Jan 2006 20:45
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Quote: "I would bet alot of money that most purchases for TGC come from DBP and not DSDK or DBC."


Don't bet your house on it or anything.

Too much, too soon, too far to go, too late to play
The game is over, the game is over
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