VOTE for updated help files - GameCreators Forum

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Kenjar

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Location: TGC

Posted: 16th Jan 2006 21:53 Edited at: 16th Jan 2006 21:54

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Quote: "Van B : So if someone writes a book about DBPro they should make it available to download for free? - so should the same be true for every other language, or just TGC's?"

As far as I know, TGC are working on the help files, what more can they do? - it takes ages, but so did DBPro, there's really nothing left but to be patient IMO.

You know what he ment, it's a bit cheeky selling a guide to a programming language that doesn't have proper help files. It's pretty much saying "stuff you, you have to buy this book, or live with never knowning how to use the language you purchased, but we don't care we got your money!"

Quote: "David T : MS and Borland employ thousands. TGC employs, last time I looked, two full time developers who've worked on DBPro."

As programmers they would be making notes, it's not so hard to write down a command once it's finished and write a breif explination of what it does. Heck, if there's only two developers, hire someone to write up their notes with all the products they are selling though the TGC it's hardly going to be an issue of cash flow.

Quote: "Nicholas Thompson : Its unfair on the masses if 10 people want a better manual when the majority would prefer a faster engine/smaller EXE's, etc, etc..."

With respect, what good is a fast, streamlined engine if no one knows how to use it? It's like this ODE thing, they stuck someone elses GPL engine into DBP, and then said it was unsupported because it was not their work. Fine, I am happy with that, but even OEM software has to have documentation with it especially if you are not going to offer any support at all.

Quote: "Grog Grueslayer: Lets look at this in another way. If you sit down to watch TV and there's a chair blocking your full view of the TV... how long you you sit there complaining about that chair before you decide to get up and move it yourself?"

What are you suggesting? That one of us should walk into the TGC's developement offices, flick though the developement notes and look at the soruce code, write the thing ourselves, and then publish it online? Not a very fair example I feel, the fact is, short of running the language though a brute force letter and number cruncher, writing down the results, and publishing it, or reverse engineering the engine back to soruce code, there isn't anything we can do.

Quote: "Grog Grueslayer: I appreciate what TGC have done with Darkbasic. If they don't have the time to make new help files so be it. We (The Darkbasic Community) can easily make them ourselves. "

As I said eariler, short of you having dreams or a phycic link with the DBP developers there is no way for you to know anything, all the information must come from the source. And it's amazing how they apparently don't have enough time to write down commands yet seemed to be able to develope multiple products such as FPS creator.

Quote: "Richard Davey: We didn't "make" the book. The first we heard about it was when a copy arrived on our doorstep with a note asking if we wanted to re-sell it. Obviously we'd have been mad not to. If we owned it (and the rights to it) we'd have more control over how the content could be used. But we don't. So drop it."

That's interesting at least, perhaps you should ask the author to produce your help files? It has been stated that you don't have the time. Apart from anything else, a first hand account of writing about your commands for a help file, can only improve his up comming 3D book, and allow him to write far more advanced books that will answer all the of questions we want to know.

Quote: "Richard Davey: Don't bet your house on it or anything."

Lets put it another way then. Alot of the products sold on the TGC website claim DBP compatibility, certainly no one buys products like Plant Life, 3D World Studio, a DarkMatter model pack, or any of the other products on the website for another language. If DarkBASIC Pro did not exist, what would be the insentive for people to buy these other products from your website? And assuming that your answer is "no reason at all" is it not, therefore more logical to make producing games with DBP as easy, and trouble free as possible so more people will advance to the level of skill where these additional products become useful? After all, a good programmer isn't always a good artist, and media is so essential when producting a decent game.

Run before you can walk, always raise the stakes higher, always keep moving, because you never know who's catching up.

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PowerSoft

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Posted: 16th Jan 2006 21:54

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Rich. I just have...

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David T

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Posted: 16th Jan 2006 21:55

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As programmers they would be making notes, it's not so hard to write down a command once it's finished and write a breif explination of what it does.

That's generally what the DBPro help files are. People complain they're too brief!

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Kenjar

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Posted: 16th Jan 2006 22:10

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Quote: "That's generally what the DBPro help files are. People complain they're too brief!"

There is a difference between breif, and incomplete. I don't expect a full sample program with detailed references and explinations. But what I do expect is all the variables to be listed. I mean takes set blend mapping on. There's more then the usual X,Y,Z,Flag there, it would be impossible for a programmer to remember all of the switchs and what they did, so surely he has it written down somewhere? Lets face it

SET BLEND MAPPING ON
This command will set the blending map for the specified object. Blended textures are combined with the
main texture to create a multitextured object. The Blend value is the mode used to create the blend effect.

SYNTAX
SET BLEND MAPPING ON Object Number, Image Number, Blend Mode

doesn't come close too:

set blend mapping on Object, Stage, Image, TexCoord, BlendMode

Object - This parameter defines the number of the object you wish to apply multitexturing too.

Stage - This parameter defines which texture stage you wish to add the image too. A texture stage is like a layer on which you can apply a texture of which you can have up two 8 (0-7). The number of texture stages you apply an image too is important as it affects the order the textures are displayed. If we imagine the textures are 8 OHP transparencies the bottom sheet would have stage 0 and the top sheet stage 7. So if you had a picture of a dog on one sheet and some spots on another and wanted to make a dalmation picture, you would put the dog lower in the order of sheets (a lower texture stage) than the spots (so you have a spotty dog instead of a dog on spots).

Image - This Parameter is the number of the image you wish to apply to the object.

TexCoord - This parameter represents the set of UV coordinates you wish to use on the object. UV coordinates are used to assign which parts of the image are mapped to each polygon. These are important for if we had a human model, we would want the face part of a texture drawn on the head and not the groin! The number given in this parameter defines which UV map you wish to use. This parameter takes numbers from 0-17:
0 - Regular UV Coordinates
1 - Sphere Mapping UV Data
2 - Cube Mapping UV Data
3 - Steal UV Data From Stage Zero
10-17 -These are only useful if you object already has multiple sets of UV coords. 10 will mean it steals the UV coords of stage 0, 11 from stage 1 etc.

BlendMode This is possibly the most important parameter, it affects the way the new texture will merge with the other layers. There are 26 options for this command all of which produce different effects. 24 of the different modes are listed here, but the best way to choose your effect is to try them out. Blend mode 24 is quite useful as simple(and fast) bumpmapping and blend mode 4 is quite good in conjunction with a sphere/cube map for fast static reflections.

I'm no expert on multitexturing but have explained it as best as I can. The 5.8 examples download has a pretty little demo showing a globe of the earth with a bumpmap and spheremap to produce a nice effect.
 
On 20th May '05, JessTicular wrote:
 
Here are the different Blend modes available ( Raven originally posted these, so props to him );

1 = Disable
2 = Select Argument 1 (Default)
3 = Select Argument 2

4 = Multiply Arguments (Arg1 * Arg2) 
5 = Multiply 2X ( Arg1 * Arg2 * 0xF )
6 = Multiply 4X ( Arg1 * Arg2 * 0xF0 )

7 = Add Arguments ( Arg1 + Arg2 )
8 = Add Signed ( Int ( Arg1 + Arg2 + -0.5 ) )
9 = Add Signed2X ( Arg1 + Arg2 * 0xF )
10 = Subtract ( Arg1 - Arg2 )
11 = Add Smooth ( Arg1 + Arg2 - Arg1*Arg2 = Arg1 + (1-Arg1)*Arg2 )

( Linear alpha blend: Arg1*(Alpha) + Arg2*(1-Alpha) )
12 = Blend Diffuse Alpha
13 = Blend Texture Alpha
14 = Blend Factor Alpha ( alpha from TEXTUREFACTOR, Unavailable in DBP )

( Linear alpha blend with pre-multiplied arg1 input: Arg1 + Arg2*(1-Alpha) )
15 = Blend Texture Alpha (Pre-Multiplied)
16 = Blend Current Alpha (alpha of current color)

17 = Pre Modulate ( Multiply with next texture before using Multiply Colour Add Alpha ( Arg1.RGB + Arg1.A*Arg2.RGB ) )
19 = multiple colour, add alpha ( Arg1.RGB*Arg2.RGB + Arg1.A )
20 = Multiple colour, add inverted alpha ( (1-Arg1.A)*Arg2.RGB + Arg1.RGB )
21 = Inverted multiple colour, add alpha ( (1-Arg1.RGB)*Arg2.RGB + Arg1.A )

22 = Per Pixel Environment Bump Mapping
23 = Heightmap Environment Bump Mapping (Arg1.R*Arg2.R + Arg1.G*Arg2.G + Arg1.B*Arg2.B)
24 = Dot Product 3 Bump Mapping

+ Code Snippet

set blend mapping on Object, Stage, Image, TexCoord, BlendMode


Object - This parameter defines the number of the object you wish to apply multitexturing too.

Stage - This parameter defines which texture stage you wish to add the image too. A texture stage is like a layer on which you can apply a texture of which you can have up two 8 (0-7). The number of texture stages you apply an image too is important as it affects the order the textures are displayed. If we imagine the textures are 8 OHP transparencies the bottom sheet would have stage 0 and the top sheet stage 7. So if you had a picture of a dog on one sheet and some spots on another and wanted to make a dalmation picture, you would put the dog lower in the order of sheets (a lower texture stage) than the spots (so you have a spotty dog instead of a dog on spots).

Image - This Parameter is the number of the image you wish to apply to the object.

TexCoord - This parameter represents the set of UV coordinates you wish to use on the object. UV coordinates are used to assign which parts of the image are mapped to each polygon. These are important for if we had a human model, we would want the face part of a texture drawn on the head and not the groin! The number given in this parameter defines which UV map you wish to use. This parameter takes numbers from 0-17:
0 - Regular UV Coordinates
1 - Sphere Mapping UV Data
2 - Cube Mapping UV Data
3 - Steal UV Data From Stage Zero
10-17 -These are only useful if you object already has multiple sets of UV coords. 10 will mean it steals the UV coords of stage 0, 11 from stage 1 etc.

BlendMode This is possibly the most important parameter, it affects the way the new texture will merge with the other layers. There are 26 options for this command all of which produce different effects. 24 of the different modes are listed here, but the best way to choose your effect is to try them out. Blend mode 24 is quite useful as simple(and fast) bumpmapping and blend mode 4 is quite good in conjunction with a sphere/cube map for fast static reflections.

I'm no expert on multitexturing but have explained it as best as I can. The 5.8 examples download has a pretty little demo showing a globe of the earth with a bumpmap and spheremap to produce a nice effect.
 
On 20th May '05, JessTicular wrote:
 
Here are the different Blend modes available ( Raven originally posted these, so props to him );

1 = Disable
2 = Select Argument 1 (Default)
3 = Select Argument 2 

4 = Multiply Arguments (Arg1 * Arg2) 
5 = Multiply 2X ( Arg1 * Arg2 * 0xF )
6 = Multiply 4X ( Arg1 * Arg2 * 0xF0 )

7 = Add Arguments ( Arg1 + Arg2 )
8 = Add Signed ( Int ( Arg1 + Arg2 + -0.5 ) )
9 = Add Signed2X ( Arg1 + Arg2 * 0xF )
10 = Subtract ( Arg1 - Arg2 )
11 = Add Smooth ( Arg1 + Arg2 - Arg1*Arg2 = Arg1 + (1-Arg1)*Arg2 )

( Linear alpha blend: Arg1*(Alpha) + Arg2*(1-Alpha) )
12 = Blend Diffuse Alpha
13 = Blend Texture Alpha
14 = Blend Factor Alpha ( alpha from TEXTUREFACTOR, Unavailable in DBP )

( Linear alpha blend with pre-multiplied arg1 input: Arg1 + Arg2*(1-Alpha) )
15 = Blend Texture Alpha (Pre-Multiplied)
16 = Blend Current Alpha (alpha of current color)

17 = Pre Modulate ( Multiply with next texture before using Multiply Colour Add Alpha ( Arg1.RGB + Arg1.A*Arg2.RGB ) )
19 = multiple colour, add alpha ( Arg1.RGB*Arg2.RGB + Arg1.A )
20 = Multiple colour, add inverted alpha ( (1-Arg1.A)*Arg2.RGB + Arg1.RGB )
21 = Inverted multiple colour, add alpha ( (1-Arg1.RGB)*Arg2.RGB + Arg1.A )

22 = Per Pixel Environment Bump Mapping
23 = Heightmap Environment Bump Mapping (Arg1.R*Arg2.R + Arg1.G*Arg2.G + Arg1.B*Arg2.B)
24 = Dot Product 3 Bump Mapping

I know it's not exactly breif, but the writer wasn't trying to be, something like.

set blend mapping on Object, Stage, Image, TexCoord, BlendMode

Object - This parameter defines the number of the object you wish to apply multitexturing too.

Stage - This parameter defines which texture stage you wish to add the image too. A texture stage is like a layer on which you can apply a texture of which you can have up two 8 (0-7).

Image - This Parameter is the number of the image you wish to apply to the object.

TexCoord - This parameter represents the set of UV coordinates you wish to use on the object.
0 - Regular UV Coordinates
1 - Sphere Mapping UV Data
2 - Cube Mapping UV Data
3 - Steal UV Data From Stage Zero
10-17 -These are only useful if you object already has multiple sets of UV coords. 10 will mean it steals the UV coords of stage 0, 11 from stage 1 etc.

Blend modes available: ( Raven originally posted these, so props to him );

1 = Disable
2 = Select Argument 1 (Default)
3 = Select Argument 2

4 = Multiply Arguments (Arg1 * Arg2) 
5 = Multiply 2X ( Arg1 * Arg2 * 0xF )
6 = Multiply 4X ( Arg1 * Arg2 * 0xF0 )

7 = Add Arguments ( Arg1 + Arg2 )
8 = Add Signed ( Int ( Arg1 + Arg2 + -0.5 ) )
9 = Add Signed2X ( Arg1 + Arg2 * 0xF )
10 = Subtract ( Arg1 - Arg2 )
11 = Add Smooth ( Arg1 + Arg2 - Arg1*Arg2 = Arg1 + (1-Arg1)*Arg2 )

( Linear alpha blend: Arg1*(Alpha) + Arg2*(1-Alpha) )
12 = Blend Diffuse Alpha
13 = Blend Texture Alpha
14 = Blend Factor Alpha ( alpha from TEXTUREFACTOR, Unavailable in DBP )

( Linear alpha blend with pre-multiplied arg1 input: Arg1 + Arg2*(1-Alpha) )
15 = Blend Texture Alpha (Pre-Multiplied)
16 = Blend Current Alpha (alpha of current color)

17 = Pre Modulate ( Multiply with next texture before using Multiply Colour Add Alpha ( Arg1.RGB + Arg1.A*Arg2.RGB ) )
19 = multiple colour, add alpha ( Arg1.RGB*Arg2.RGB + Arg1.A )
20 = Multiple colour, add inverted alpha ( (1-Arg1.A)*Arg2.RGB + Arg1.RGB )
21 = Inverted multiple colour, add alpha ( (1-Arg1.RGB)*Arg2.RGB + Arg1.A )

22 = Per Pixel Environment Bump Mapping
23 = Heightmap Environment Bump Mapping (Arg1.R*Arg2.R + Arg1.G*Arg2.G + Arg1.B*Arg2.B)
24 = Dot Product 3 Bump Mapping

+ Code Snippet

set blend mapping on Object, Stage, Image, TexCoord, BlendMode

Object - This parameter defines the number of the object you wish to apply multitexturing too.

Stage - This parameter defines which texture stage you wish to add the image too. A texture stage is like a layer on which you can apply a texture of which you can have up two 8 (0-7).

Image - This Parameter is the number of the image you wish to apply to the object.

TexCoord - This parameter represents the set of UV coordinates you wish to use on the object.
0 - Regular UV Coordinates
1 - Sphere Mapping UV Data
2 - Cube Mapping UV Data
3 - Steal UV Data From Stage Zero
10-17 -These are only useful if you object already has multiple sets of UV coords. 10 will mean it steals the UV coords of stage 0, 11 from stage 1 etc.

Blend modes available: ( Raven originally posted these, so props to him );

1 = Disable
2 = Select Argument 1 (Default)
3 = Select Argument 2 

4 = Multiply Arguments (Arg1 * Arg2) 
5 = Multiply 2X ( Arg1 * Arg2 * 0xF )
6 = Multiply 4X ( Arg1 * Arg2 * 0xF0 )

7 = Add Arguments ( Arg1 + Arg2 )
8 = Add Signed ( Int ( Arg1 + Arg2 + -0.5 ) )
9 = Add Signed2X ( Arg1 + Arg2 * 0xF )
10 = Subtract ( Arg1 - Arg2 )
11 = Add Smooth ( Arg1 + Arg2 - Arg1*Arg2 = Arg1 + (1-Arg1)*Arg2 )

( Linear alpha blend: Arg1*(Alpha) + Arg2*(1-Alpha) )
12 = Blend Diffuse Alpha
13 = Blend Texture Alpha
14 = Blend Factor Alpha ( alpha from TEXTUREFACTOR, Unavailable in DBP )

( Linear alpha blend with pre-multiplied arg1 input: Arg1 + Arg2*(1-Alpha) )
15 = Blend Texture Alpha (Pre-Multiplied)
16 = Blend Current Alpha (alpha of current color)

17 = Pre Modulate ( Multiply with next texture before using Multiply Colour Add Alpha ( Arg1.RGB + Arg1.A*Arg2.RGB ) )
19 = multiple colour, add alpha ( Arg1.RGB*Arg2.RGB + Arg1.A )
20 = Multiple colour, add inverted alpha ( (1-Arg1.A)*Arg2.RGB + Arg1.RGB )
21 = Inverted multiple colour, add alpha ( (1-Arg1.RGB)*Arg2.RGB + Arg1.A )

22 = Per Pixel Environment Bump Mapping
23 = Heightmap Environment Bump Mapping (Arg1.R*Arg2.R + Arg1.G*Arg2.G + Arg1.B*Arg2.B)
24 = Dot Product 3 Bump Mapping

This is breif and not totally informative, but it's what I'd expect to see in a help file. experimentation or looking for a tutorial is what I'd do next, but at least I'd have the basic information.

And there are other commands out there that don't even make it into the help file at all.

Run before you can walk, always raise the stakes higher, always keep moving, because you never know who's catching up.

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The admiral

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Posted: 16th Jan 2006 22:22

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Im in favour of the help files being updated even if its a few tweaks to fix some of the help for afew commands.

The admiral

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Sjakie

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Posted: 16th Jan 2006 22:24

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Quote: " Kenjar: And there are other commands out there that don't even make it into the help file at all. "

Kenjar is 100% right. This is DBpro, not classic. Classic has all sort of example programs and stuff. DBpro hasn't because they expect you to have enough experience with the basics. But these unlisted commands aren't basics. These are sometimes complicated commands that are U-S-E-L-E-S-S without a simple explanation. They only need to be listed in the COMMANDS section, so if you're stuck and smash F1 you'll get a short explaination that should be enough (if it isn't enough, THEN you could refer to these forums )

Reality SUCKS...
programming doesn't =)

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Jedi Lord

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Posted: 16th Jan 2006 22:49 Edited at: 16th Jan 2006 23:03

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So you want me to make a updated help folder... I will do it.
Let me work on it for about 2 weeks or less, I hope so. I will do my best what I can do about it.

But one condition when I give out the new update help folder... GIVE ME ENOUGH REPECT!

Everyone... I DO KNOW HOW TO PROGRAM AND BE QUITE ABOUT THE LAST THREAD WE TALK ABOUT!

Gnome that cast... AMAZING

.

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SirFire

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Posted: 16th Jan 2006 22:57 Edited at: 16th Jan 2006 22:58

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Tylerdx, don't be offended but you should work on your basic english grammer before making a help file.

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Jedi Lord

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Posted: 16th Jan 2006 23:04 Edited at: 16th Jan 2006 23:04

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>:-( I am in the hurry.

I will be sure to DOUBLE CHECK THE SPELLING AND GRAMMER.

Gnome that cast... AMAZING

.

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Kenjar

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Posted: 16th Jan 2006 23:48

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Does anyone know who Tylerdx is? Has he done anything like this before? Why is he offering? No offence ment, but it's rather presumptuos to announce something like that.

Run before you can walk, always raise the stakes higher, always keep moving, because you never know who's catching up.

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Grog Grueslayer

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Posted: 17th Jan 2006 00:03

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Quote: "What are you suggesting? That one of us should walk into the TGC's developement offices, flick though the developement notes and look at the soruce code, write the thing ourselves, and then publish it online? Not a very fair example I feel, the fact is, short of running the language though a brute force letter and number cruncher, writing down the results, and publishing it, or reverse engineering the engine back to soruce code, there isn't anything we can do."

It doesn't have to be that drastic. We can simply ask for a list of the syntax for each command. The undocumented commands aren't that much. When I made the programs to modify the help files I copied all the commands on JessTiculars page and thew together a program that checks the actual html help files vs that list just to see how many undocumented commands were known to us already.

Here's the list:

&&
*
+
-
..
/
3DS2X
<
<<
<=
<>
=
>
>=
>>
ADD BITMAP TO BLOCK
ADD FILE TO BLOCK
ADD IMAGE TO BLOCK
ADD OBJECT TO BLOCK
ALWAYS ACTIVE OFF
ALWAYS ACTIVE ON
AND
APPEND$
AS
BUILD TERRAIN
CREATE FILE BLOCK
DELETE FILE BLOCK
DELETE OBJECTS
DELETE OGG VORBIS
ENCODE OGG VORBIS
EXTRACT FILE FROM BLOCK
FIRST TOKEN$
GET FILE BLOCK COMPRESSION
GET FILE BLOCK COUNT
GET FILE BLOCK DATA EXISTS
GET FILE BLOCK EXISTS
GET FILE BLOCK SIZE
GET INDEXDATA
GET OGG VORBIS EXISTS
GET OGG VORBIS STATE
GET OGG VORBIS VOLUME
GET TERRAIN GROUND HEIGHT
GET TERRAIN X SIZE
GET TERRAIN Z SIZE
GET VERTEXDATA INDEX COUNT
GET VERTEXDATA POSITION X
GET VERTEXDATA POSITION Y
GET VERTEXDATA POSITION Z
GET VERTEXDATA VERTEX COUNT
GLOBAL
IMAGE HEIGHT
IMAGE WIDTH
LOAD BITMAP FROM BLOCK
LOAD IMAGE FROM BLOCK
LOAD OBJECT FROM BLOCK
LOAD OGG VORBIS
LOAD TERRAIN
LOOP OGG VORBIS
MAKE OBJECT TERRAIN
MOD
NEXT TOKEN$
NOT
OPEN FILE BLOCK
OR
PAUSE OGG VORBIS
PERFORM CHECKLIST FOR FILE BLOCK DATA
PLAY OGG VORBIS
PRINTC
RESUME OGG VORBIS
REVERSE$
SAVE FILE BLOCK
SAVE OBJECT
SAVE TERRAIN
SET FILE BLOCK COMPRESSION
SET FILE BLOCK KEY
SET OGG VORBIS VOLUME
SET PHYSICS FRAME RATE
SET TERRAIN HEIGHTMAP
SET TERRAIN LIGHT
SET TERRAIN SCALE
SET TERRAIN SPLIT
SET TERRAIN TEXTURE
SET TERRAIN TILING
SET VERTEXDATA NORMALS
SET VERTEXDATA POSITION
STOP OGG VORBIS
THEN
TO
UNLOCK VERTEXDATA
UPDATE PHYSICS
UPDATE TERRAIN
XOR
||
~~

+ Code Snippet

&&
*
+
-
..
/
3DS2X
<
<<
<=
<>
=
>
>=
>>
ADD BITMAP TO BLOCK
ADD FILE TO BLOCK
ADD IMAGE TO BLOCK
ADD OBJECT TO BLOCK
ALWAYS ACTIVE OFF
ALWAYS ACTIVE ON
AND
APPEND$
AS
BUILD TERRAIN
CREATE FILE BLOCK
DELETE FILE BLOCK
DELETE OBJECTS
DELETE OGG VORBIS
ENCODE OGG VORBIS
EXTRACT FILE FROM BLOCK
FIRST TOKEN$
GET FILE BLOCK COMPRESSION
GET FILE BLOCK COUNT
GET FILE BLOCK DATA EXISTS
GET FILE BLOCK EXISTS
GET FILE BLOCK SIZE
GET INDEXDATA
GET OGG VORBIS EXISTS
GET OGG VORBIS STATE
GET OGG VORBIS VOLUME
GET TERRAIN GROUND HEIGHT
GET TERRAIN X SIZE
GET TERRAIN Z SIZE
GET VERTEXDATA INDEX COUNT
GET VERTEXDATA POSITION X
GET VERTEXDATA POSITION Y
GET VERTEXDATA POSITION Z
GET VERTEXDATA VERTEX COUNT
GLOBAL
IMAGE HEIGHT
IMAGE WIDTH
LOAD BITMAP FROM BLOCK
LOAD IMAGE FROM BLOCK
LOAD OBJECT FROM BLOCK
LOAD OGG VORBIS
LOAD TERRAIN
LOOP OGG VORBIS
MAKE OBJECT TERRAIN
MOD
NEXT TOKEN$
NOT
OPEN FILE BLOCK
OR
PAUSE OGG VORBIS
PERFORM CHECKLIST FOR FILE BLOCK DATA
PLAY OGG VORBIS
PRINTC
RESUME OGG VORBIS
REVERSE$
SAVE FILE BLOCK
SAVE OBJECT
SAVE TERRAIN
SET FILE BLOCK COMPRESSION
SET FILE BLOCK KEY
SET OGG VORBIS VOLUME
SET PHYSICS FRAME RATE
SET TERRAIN HEIGHTMAP
SET TERRAIN LIGHT
SET TERRAIN SCALE
SET TERRAIN SPLIT
SET TERRAIN TEXTURE
SET TERRAIN TILING
SET VERTEXDATA NORMALS
SET VERTEXDATA POSITION
STOP OGG VORBIS
THEN
TO
UNLOCK VERTEXDATA
UPDATE PHYSICS
UPDATE TERRAIN
XOR
||
~~

This list of course mostly has the Expansion Pack commands (which I don't have), some commands that do have html files in Enhanced but not in Pro (like "always active on"... existing help files can easily be converted to the Pro style), and commands we use all the time that I personally don't think need to be explained (like "or" and "then").

I do see where your coming from... but it's not that big of a problem. I'm sure when 6.0 comes out it'll come with updated help files.

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Nicholas Thompson

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Posted: 17th Jan 2006 00:04 Edited at: 17th Jan 2006 00:05

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Tyler - no offence, as said earlier, I dont think your english is up to a help file in what is predominantely an english language based product. For the same reason, I'm not going to offer my services as I have the english skills of a french skunk who has spanish as a second language... And I am from the UK born and bred!

EDIT: btw, I recall Tyler being a young and over enthusiactic member. Not a bad thing - however I just remember you being very much "gimme teh codez!!"... Aint seen you in ages though.

http://forum.antiblog.com, http://thingy-ma-jig.co.uk/new/

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2D Analyst

AGK Developer

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Posted: 17th Jan 2006 00:08

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I could update the help file myself...and all the new command will show up there. It's just basic html code...I already did it for couple of commands already. I might work on this help file this weekend.

eatfishy

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Kenjar

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Posted: 17th Jan 2006 10:33

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Quote: "Grog Grueslayer: It doesn't have to be that drastic. We can simply ask for a list of the syntax for each command. The undocumented commands aren't that much. "

With respect, what is the difference between producing a list of syntx for each command? And asking them to release a help file, as said it is just an html document that anyone could produce inside of a minute. Having a basic list of syntx would be the very minimum of a help file. Of cause once you have this list (and you are not asking them what the syntx does) you will then have to sit down and work out how many different variable's have an effect. As seen with the set blend mapping on command there's 26 different blend modes, at least 6 UV modes, and I'm not entirely sure that the user trying to work out what it does would have a very sucessful time of it, espically with the UV data, after all does it report what it's doing? No you have to know, in order to understand. I have no idea how complicated the other commands that you listed are, and lets face it, that list you put up might not be the whole list of undocumented commands. I would not be suprised, if after a few weeks you discovered that even more ccommands appeared! Right now I can safely state that your list has NONE of the ODE commands in 5.9. This is why we need the TGc to do it because at the end of the day they wrote the commands, and they have a list of the commands, and most importantly they understand the commands syntx.

Quote: "I could update the help file myself...and all the new command will show up there. It's just basic html code...I already did it for couple of commands already. I might work on this help file this weekend. "

Again, anyone could update an help file, this is the whole point. But not everyone has access too, or a complete understanding of the command names, their syntx and what the syntx does! Sure you will update it with what is known, but how is that different from jess's website? It's been done, what we need is a complete list from the horses mouth. As demonstrated here, html files and help files are not hard to make, so why hasn't the TGC done it?

Run before you can walk, always raise the stakes higher, always keep moving, because you never know who's catching up.

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Nicholas Thompson

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Posted: 17th Jan 2006 10:48

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Cant the DLL's be loaded up and somehow a list of commands and arguements be produced? I've never done any work whatsoever with DLL's so I have no idea...

http://forum.antiblog.com, http://thingy-ma-jig.co.uk/new/

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Grog Grueslayer

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Posted: 17th Jan 2006 11:19

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Quote: "With respect, what is the difference between producing a list of syntx for each command? And asking them to release a help file, as said it is just an html document that anyone could produce inside of a minute."

Knowing a command exists is better than not knowing at all but I see your point now. It wouldn't be a problem with simple commands but the more options a command has the harder it would be to figure out exactly what the command does.

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Sjakie

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Posted: 17th Jan 2006 17:56

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Guys, maybe we can try go get as much information about the unknown commands as possible... and then put together a new help index that is a bit better then the existing one... not complete, but still a lot better

For example: i'd like to figure out the updated set object shadow on command... it works with meshes and stuff like that now.

Lets all just dump something together on a public ftp or something, and after a while we'll put it together and build a new help. Who sticks with me ? (im NOT doing it on my own ya know)

Reality SUCKS...
programming doesn't =)

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x1bwork

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Posted: 17th Jan 2006 18:04

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I say we all vote for Dancing Zombies for the TGC's new logo

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Nicholas Thompson

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Posted: 17th Jan 2006 18:35

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Quote: "I say we all vote for Dancing Zombies for the TGC's new logo"

Nah - has to be sheep....

Quote: "(im NOT doing it on my own ya know)"

CLEARLY you dont want it that bad then

http://forum.antiblog.com, http://thingy-ma-jig.co.uk/new/

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Agent Dink

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Posted: 17th Jan 2006 18:36

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I will vote yes. I do think we should have updated help files with an updated program. If DBP is updated with 5, 10, or even 30 new commands, seriously, how much longer does it take to release an updated help file with the download? It would take a few hours. Big deal. Don't get me wrong, I am not a lazy person, but if I have a choice to spend 5 minutes looking up a (currently undocumented) command, or an hour or more looking up a (currently undocumented) command, I would like to choose the 5 minutes, thanks.

I also think that TGC is not active enough with the community. It would be excellent if one of them could simply come to this thread and post whether there is a planned update or not. I mean come on guys, PR is important. I love DarkBasic Pro, and I think its a rather excellent program as it is, but I can't say since I purchased it that I have been overjoyed with the attention given to the community when a problem arises, and they'd like an answer. TGC seems to purposefully ignore this stuff.

I understand that stuff like this comes up often and they may only wanna answer it so many times, but maybe leak some information to the community once in awhile. Make a sticky about the help files, and when they are being updated so all the noobs, don't have to post asking where it is.

Anyhow, thats my 2 cents.

www.badpicsofmatt.tk
www.silver-dawn.net

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Kenjar

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Posted: 17th Jan 2006 20:23

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Ok guys, I know Jess's website is pretty good, but I can never remember the damn web address when I want it, so I've registered a new website called www.darkbasichelp.com this will become active in the next 48 hours. But for now the website is up at http://www.gamersol.co.uk/DarkBASICHelp/Website/ I've installed the main website (but it's not finished yet) a Wiki so everyone who wants too can come along and add a command or a note to the command. I will run weekly backups and convert what has been put into the wiki, into an online help document much like Jess's, and once that is done we or I can convert this information into html files and offer it as a download plugin for DarkBASIC Pro so everyone can have the most up-to-date information at the click of an F1. This project is ambitous, but with an easy to remember website address, and the community working together I'm sure we'll be able to pool our collective knoweledge together and make it accessable to everybody.

Run before you can walk, always raise the stakes higher, always keep moving, because you never know who's catching up.

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SirFire

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Posted: 17th Jan 2006 20:54

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Kenjar, if it works and is actually editable by us (unlike Jess's website) then it sounds like a great idea. Jess's site is great, don't get me wrong, but currently nobody can edit it.

I have a suggestion though: perhaps we could persuade TGC to use the site, and have a note on each entry whether TGC has added to or approved the content of the specific entry. Have TGC entries stand out so that we can feel assured that we have the info "from the horse's mouth". Have a special section just for TGC for info requests for recent commands that have come out or for extra arguments that have been added to existing commands.

This could turn into a great thing!

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DarkBasic Pro Guy

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Posted: 17th Jan 2006 21:04 Edited at: 17th Jan 2006 21:05

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+ Code Snippet

vote$="yes"
print vote$

has someone tried emailing someone yet?

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the_winch

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Posted: 17th Jan 2006 21:06 Edited at: 17th Jan 2006 21:09

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If TGC have the time to go trawling around a wiki checking entries they would have time to improve the actuall dbpro docs. It's also not very practical on a wiki that can be editied at any time, being approved is useless if the page gets edited after the approval.

Quote: "Cant the DLL's be loaded up and somehow a list of commands and arguements be produced? I've never done any work whatsoever with DLL's so I have no idea..."

Yes you can use the dlls stringtables to do that. Gets you a list of all the dbpro commands in the dll, their arguments and often a description of the arguments.

You could have a program that would scan a dll and spit out all the commands within the dll. You would then have the skeleton of the site done very quickly.
I wrote an app that does just that but spits out code so you can easily call commands in dbpro dlls from .net TPC dlls.
I could easily adapt it so it spat out text sutible for use on a wiki if someone supplies a template for the outputted text.

By way of demonstration, he emitted a batlike squeak that was indeed bothersome.

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Kenjar

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Posted: 17th Jan 2006 21:27 Edited at: 17th Jan 2006 21:31

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It's perfectly practical, I've been operating a wiki on the www.openmmo.co.uk website for over a month now. The way it's going to work, is there is the Wiki, it is open for anyone to add notes or commands that they've discovered, they can do this any time and easily enough just by click on edit. Every month or week, or what ever is required I will go though what's been added, and transfere it to the main website where it is set in stone, once the document covered significantly more then the existing DarkBASIC Pro helpfiles these documents can be rendered as help files and put on the website, in an installer for anyone to download and install, once installed you never need go on my website again (unless it's to get the lastest files), then it's F1 all the way. Obviousally with this system there is room for abuse, but until that happens I'm not going to worry too much, for me, at the end of the day it's just a matter of rolling back the database, then forcing people to register before they can edit it, but until then it's open to everyone.

Yes it would be nice for the TGC to get it's act together, and there have been claims since patch 5.6 that they will, but they never did. Who knows, being open perhaps one or two of the developers for DBP will pop by and make the odd update, it's unlikely but you never know your luck. As it is, it's better then a poke in the eye with a sharp stick, and will improve the help files even if it doesn't complete them.

For those who don't want to edit the wiki for fear of what they type being ruined by someone else I've also setup forums for posts, the information posted in these can just as easily be pasted onto the main website and intergrated into the help files.

Run before you can walk, always raise the stakes higher, always keep moving, because you never know who's catching up.

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bosskeith

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Posted: 17th Jan 2006 21:33

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Ladies and gentlemen of the jury...
I also vote yes , however...

if past posts have been read you realize this post is not all that new. In posts around november, if I recall correctly, they had stated that 6.0 will have full documentation. This obviously tells me that they want to have all the bugs ironed out before giving official word on documentation. What good is it for us to have documentaion that says a broken command recieves 3 variables when they add a fourth to fix it?

If you go to forums and search for your elusive commands you can usualy find help from others who have done their own research and are very willing to help...please take advantage of that until they can develope a proper well rounded help file after repairing the faulty functioning commands.

god bless and happy programming

Ink all over the screen...and dang it! Signature still does not show.

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Nicholas Thompson

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Posted: 17th Jan 2006 21:36

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Wiki help - great idea... except... Its online... So you cant "just press F1" which was one of the arguements against this forum.

Admitedly, It'll probably be easier to search than this forum...

I've always wondered what stops people going round a Wiki and deleting all the entries....

http://forum.antiblog.com, http://thingy-ma-jig.co.uk/new/

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Kenjar

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Posted: 17th Jan 2006 21:50 Edited at: 17th Jan 2006 21:52

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The Wiki Stage is the building stage, once it's at a suitable level I can dump it as HTML, and produce a downloadable file that will replace the existing DBP files, then it's a matter for F1'ing it, and making occasional checks to see if there's an updated version of the help file.

For those of you who don't know how to use Wiki, Tinkergirl, from the Open MMORPG project has kindly written some help files about how to use Wiki http://www.gamersol.co.uk/DarkBASICHelp/Wiki/index.php/Help:Contents#Internal_Link

Run before you can walk, always raise the stakes higher, always keep moving, because you never know who's catching up.

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the_winch

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Posted: 17th Jan 2006 21:54

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Quote: "I've always wondered what stops people going round a Wiki and deleting all the entries...."

It takes about the same amount of effort to restore the page as it does to delete it and it's not exactly the wind up of the century. Spamming is a much much bigger problem.

By way of demonstration, he emitted a batlike squeak that was indeed bothersome.

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SirFire

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Posted: 17th Jan 2006 21:59 Edited at: 17th Jan 2006 22:03

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Quote: "please take advantage of that until they can develope a proper well rounded help file after repairing the faulty functioning commands."

and how many more years will that take? technology changes very quickly, and every hour we waste looking for documentation is time our games could have spent in the spotlight. Every minute we spend on the forums arguing about missing help files also is wasted time. If the help files were here, we would all be happily coding along and not debating the responsibility that TGC keeps putting off and has been putting off for a long time.

[edit] I vote yes again.

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Kenjar

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Posted: 17th Jan 2006 22:47 Edited at: 17th Jan 2006 22:50

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Quote: "It takes about the same amount of effort to restore the page as it does to delete it and it's not exactly the wind up of the century. Spamming is a much much bigger problem."

Spammers usually can't be bothered to learn how to use a system like wiki. But as I say, a weekly backup of the database, and if nessassary a daily one will mean that any damage caused can be repaired quite easily, also with the last edited page feature I don't have to look though every single document on a daily basis, I just need to look at the most recently made edits to keep on top of things. And again, once the information is passed from the Wiki onto the main website, it's set in stone and protected from edits. The Wiki is just a tempory document, eventually the website and compiled help file will provide security, and once the bulk of the main work is done, the wiki could even be bandoned for the forum system. Wiki is just the starting point, as the site evolves it will change to protect itself.

I've just finished putting in a list of known commands, there's no information yet in the documents but the list is there, and anyone who feels a known command isn't very well explained, or is incomplete, please feel free to make any additions you want, and if you know of an undocumented command please feel free to add that but put an astrics beside it (*) so we know.

I spent a good six hours setting up the website today, and a bit of cash on the domain name which will be active in 48 so I hope it's used

Run before you can walk, always raise the stakes higher, always keep moving, because you never know who's catching up.

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Lame Brain

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Posted: 17th Jan 2006 22:49

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I'm in favor of a forum topic called manual. Inside would be a comprehensive list of commads, each containing a breif description, explanation of how its used, and then some links to forum threads where the command is described in more detail (if such exist)

Another hair-brained idear from... LAME BRAIN!

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Kenjar

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Posted: 17th Jan 2006 22:54

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Good idea, I like the idea about links to forum threads as well. The danger with a forum thread of commands is that commands will get burried in posts, it's impossible to keep it clean. I did think of using the forum primarily but a wiki makes more sense to my mind. A thread on this forum will get burried pretty quick. I have provided a forum on the http://www.gamersol.co.uk/DarkBASICHelp/Website/ which will be known by the easier address of [href]www.darkbasichelp.com[/href] once the domain name has been processed.

Run before you can walk, always raise the stakes higher, always keep moving, because you never know who's catching up.

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SirFire

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Posted: 17th Jan 2006 23:04 Edited at: 17th Jan 2006 23:06

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Kenjar, you have a typo on the h0mep4g3:

+ Code Snippet

can have the lastest, up to date information availible

just a heads up

[edit] also, in the darkbasic pro contents page of the wiki, there is a [ next to the F

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Kenjar

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Posted: 17th Jan 2006 23:17

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Thanks, I'm always trying to do everything and once, you wouldn't beleive how many open windows are on my PC! NVU is cool if anyone want's to get into web developement (close to dreamweaver but free). Anyway thanks for the heads up, perhaps I'd better assign moderators to the website, is anyone interested? It's all built into the site, it's pretty much just a matter of clicking on edit and typing away as if it where a word processor, and heaven knows my spelling is less then prefect at the best of times!

Run before you can walk, always raise the stakes higher, always keep moving, because you never know who's catching up.

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IBOL

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Posted: 18th Jan 2006 09:43

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just back to vote again:
hello? YES!

Starlord Omega: SCI-FI 4X TBS
http://forum.thegamecreators.com/?m=forum_view&t=61670&b=8

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Kenjar

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Posted: 18th Jan 2006 18:28 Edited at: 18th Jan 2006 18:37

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Quote: "
The following is a reply to your enquiry:

[quote]Can you please send me a complete list of undocumented and incompletely documented commands (such as "set blend mapping on") commands for DarkBASIC Professional version 5.9, including syntax and purpose of syntx?

Please include the new ODE commands, I don't want detailed explinations just a list of command names, their syntax and a breif list of what the syntx does. Thank you."

All of the command names are available from the update59.txt inside your DBP folder. As for ODE, for now it's best to just work on the limited information provided in the forum as the version released with 5.9 as a 'bonus' isn't the same as the current 'in-development' version ... not even remotely similar.[/quote]

So I checked my DarkBASIC Professional directory, and searched for update59.txt... doesn't exist on my system, does it exist on anyone elses? and if it does, did you install the patch from the www.darkbasicpro.com website or are you using one of the beta's?

I did find "upgrade5_9.txt" which contains

Upgrade 5.9
===========

Information
-----------

* Released two new and unsupported DLLs called ODE and MultiplayerPlus (FPSC support)
 * New commands added to U5.9 but undocumented for this release (FPSC support only)
 * In the event of a message about duplicated terrain commands then delete AdvancedTerrain.dll from the plugins-user folder
 * New examples in the projectsu59examples folder - demonstrates collision and ODE

Information about Extras (supplimentary release)
----------------------------

* Released the DBPRO DLL source code to the ODE, making it open source to the community
 * Included latest header files for the DBO format and GlobStruct

FPS Creator Game Engine Source Code
-----------------------------------

* Released the FPSC game engine source code fully compatible with U5.9 upgrade
 * Note that the FPSC game engine relies on functionality provided by the Enhancements expansion pack, if you do not have this pack the source code will not compile, you can find out more information about the expansion pack here  http://darkbasicpro.thegamecreators.com/?f=enhancementpack
 * For those who already own the Enhancements pack you will need to update to the latest version, this can be found in your order history on the web site

General
-------

* Numerous small fixes and changes within several DLLs due to FPSC development
 * New command named "calculate object bounds ID", this can be used to calculate an objects bounds for collision and visibility etc.
 * Alpha mapping an instanced object no longer forces loss of transparency
 * Fog no longer interferes with shaders
 * Radius of objects are now updated when "offset limb" is used, this solves the problem of objects disappearing that have been offset
 * Deleted lights are now removed completely
 * Fixed an issue with "set object" when wireframe state was ignored
 * Point camera will revert to Euler rotation automatically
 * Instanced objects can now be cloned
 * Fixed a problem where cloned objects did not correctly match position data of source object
 * Copy bitmap command now updates size correctly on both axis
 * Resolved a potential crash on "make memblock from file"
 * The command "create animated sprite" no longer crashes when an invalid image is used
 * Animated sprites now use the 1 texture flag by default ( 1 to 1 pixel mapping )
 * Error message now displayed on "open to write" if invalid index is used
 * When setting an object to another objects orientation the pivot is now retained, you can specify an extra parameter 1 to ignore to ensure the pivot matches the other object
 * The command "make mesh from object" no longer crashes after a resolution change
 * Instanced objects can now have their own independant alpha settings
 * Resolved a crash with certain shader settings
 * The size of a sprite can now be updated automatically when their image is changed to match the dimensions of the image by using "set sprite resize 1", this can be disabled with "set sprite resize 0"
 * Stopped a possible crash with "sprite collision" not checking for existence of both sprites
 * Object looping property correctly updated when animation has stopped
 * Alternative "make object plain" command, add extra parameter of 1 to use this
 * Instanced objects will use pivot data from source object
 * Object size values now take into account any pivot data
 * Basic 2D pixel plotter now adds an extra check to ensure not drawing outside of surface bounds
 * Changed ink mode on Basic 2D box
 * Height of stretch sprite is now updated correctly
 * New command for retrieving the priority of a sprite - return integer = sprite priority ( sprite number )
 * Sprites no longer cause a crash if the image they reference has been deleted
 * Alt tab no longer results in losing meshes
 * New bitmap function "set bitmap format" to let you control the format of a bitmap, this is useful for saving alpha data for instance, takes one parameter, -1 will  default to normal format, other values refer to D3DFORMAT structure e.g. use format 21 for A8R8G8B8
 * Solved a slow down issue on copy bitmap
 * Modified some sprite code for animations
 * 3D sounds now updated correctly when fastsync is used
 * Excluded objects can now be deleted

+ Code Snippet

Upgrade 5.9
===========


Information
-----------

 * Released two new and unsupported DLLs called ODE and MultiplayerPlus (FPSC support)
 * New commands added to U5.9 but undocumented for this release (FPSC support only)
 * In the event of a message about duplicated terrain commands then delete AdvancedTerrain.dll from the plugins-user folder
 * New examples in the projectsu59examples folder - demonstrates collision and ODE


Information about Extras (supplimentary release)
----------------------------

 * Released the DBPRO DLL source code to the ODE, making it open source to the community
 * Included latest header files for the DBO format and GlobStruct


FPS Creator Game Engine Source Code
-----------------------------------

 * Released the FPSC game engine source code fully compatible with U5.9 upgrade
 * Note that the FPSC game engine relies on functionality provided by the Enhancements expansion pack, if you do not have this pack the source code will not compile, you can find out more information about the expansion pack here  http://darkbasicpro.thegamecreators.com/?f=enhancementpack
 * For those who already own the Enhancements pack you will need to update to the latest version, this can be found in your order history on the web site


General
-------

 * Numerous small fixes and changes within several DLLs due to FPSC development
 * New command named "calculate object bounds ID", this can be used to calculate an objects bounds for collision and visibility etc.
 * Alpha mapping an instanced object no longer forces loss of transparency
 * Fog no longer interferes with shaders
 * Radius of objects are now updated when "offset limb" is used, this solves the problem of objects disappearing that have been offset
 * Deleted lights are now removed completely
 * Fixed an issue with "set object" when wireframe state was ignored
 * Point camera will revert to Euler rotation automatically
 * Instanced objects can now be cloned
 * Fixed a problem where cloned objects did not correctly match position data of source object
 * Copy bitmap command now updates size correctly on both axis
 * Resolved a potential crash on "make memblock from file"
 * The command "create animated sprite" no longer crashes when an invalid image is used
 * Animated sprites now use the 1 texture flag by default ( 1 to 1 pixel mapping )
 * Error message now displayed on "open to write" if invalid index is used
 * When setting an object to another objects orientation the pivot is now retained, you can specify an extra parameter 1 to ignore to ensure the pivot matches the other object
 * The command "make mesh from object" no longer crashes after a resolution change
 * Instanced objects can now have their own independant alpha settings
 * Resolved a crash with certain shader settings
 * The size of a sprite can now be updated automatically when their image is changed to match the dimensions of the image by using "set sprite resize 1", this can be disabled with "set sprite resize 0"
 * Stopped a possible crash with "sprite collision" not checking for existence of both sprites
 * Object looping property correctly updated when animation has stopped
 * Alternative "make object plain" command, add extra parameter of 1 to use this
 * Instanced objects will use pivot data from source object
 * Object size values now take into account any pivot data
 * Basic 2D pixel plotter now adds an extra check to ensure not drawing outside of surface bounds
 * Changed ink mode on Basic 2D box
 * Height of stretch sprite is now updated correctly
 * New command for retrieving the priority of a sprite - return integer = sprite priority ( sprite number )
 * Sprites no longer cause a crash if the image they reference has been deleted
 * Alt tab no longer results in losing meshes
 * New bitmap function "set bitmap format" to let you control the format of a bitmap, this is useful for saving alpha data for instance, takes one parameter, -1 will  default to normal format, other values refer to D3DFORMAT structure e.g. use format 21 for A8R8G8B8
 * Solved a slow down issue on copy bitmap
 * Modified some sprite code for animations
 * 3D sounds now updated correctly when fastsync is used
 * Excluded objects can now be deleted

So no list that I can see, there are a few undocumented commands there and a couple of mentions of additional parameters but no details in regaurds to how to use these or what the parameters are.

It's nice to meet a company that cares... does anyone know of one?

Anyway, now to pick apart the replay to my e-mail.

Quote: "All of the command names are available from the update59.txt inside your DBP folder."

Fine, he might have ment the upgrade5_9.txt file or the update59.txt might have been lost on my system for some reason, can someone check there directory for it please?

Quote: "As for ODE, for now it's best to just work on the limited information provided in the forum"

Limited is certainly right.

Quote: "as the version released with 5.9 as a 'bonus' isn't the same as the current 'in-development' version ... not even remotely similar"

Huh? What does it matter if it's a bonus or not? I mean if they released an earily version to get feedback on it then fine, but that hasn't been indicated, and if the commands that appear in the "newly developed version" aren't even simular what's the point? Why release it at all? Besides, it was good enough for FPSC wasn't it? They make quite a fuss of it being in there after all. Also what is this New version being developed going to be in? 6.0? Surely with the recent release of 5.9, 6.0 is months away, if not perhaps a year away, given that they only have two coders, or so they say.

So basically, they've released another set of codes, but once again negelected to give us a decoder ring for it.

Oh, and I might be reading this is a bad light because my website service provider just told me that www.darkbasichelp.com is no longer availible because someone else just registered for it. Very annoying, still I've registered for a new time, but this time I won't go shouting it out, obviousally someone thought my idea too good to pass up. Ah well. Still if we are lucky, it will be Jessticulars website that registered for it, I wouldn't mind that so much as I can never remember that sites web address.

Run before you can walk, always raise the stakes higher, always keep moving, because you never know who's catching up.

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Richard Davey

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Posted: 18th Jan 2006 18:53

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Quote: "So basically, they've released another set of codes, but once again negelected to give us a decoder ring"

Two things:

1) Lee always said, right from the very start, that the ODE commands would be released in the next DBPro Upgrade (5.8 back then I believe) but would be UN-SUPPORTED. This means 'un-documented'. That hasn't changed.

2) The 'decoder ring' would be the full C++ source code to the ODE DBPro plugin we released. You don't have the C++ code to the rest of the DBPro libraries, so you can't work out exactly what parameters certain functions take, it's all trial and error. But with the ODE ones you have the code right there infront of you. One heck of a 'decoder' ring if you ask me.

Too much, too soon, too far to go, too late to play
The game is over, the game is over

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Duffer

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Posted: 18th Jan 2006 18:58

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@ Rich,

OK - but you'll agree that TGC said they were moving to put all new commands etc into some sort of accessible and consolidated help format - is there any kind of (will accept nebulous) eta on this? or a similar eta for Upgrade 6?

a long time dabbler with DBC and DBPro with no actual talent but lots of enthusiasm...

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Nicholas Thompson

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Posted: 18th Jan 2006 20:14

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It is indeed registered by Jess...

http://forum.antiblog.com, http://thingy-ma-jig.co.uk/new/

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Kenjar

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Location: TGC

Posted: 18th Jan 2006 20:24 Edited at: 18th Jan 2006 22:46

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Various people have been reporting that the TGC have said that they are in the process of producing up-to-date help files. No one, however, has provided a reference back to a post, where the TGC has clearly stated that they are. I can't find any offical record of them committing publically to writing new documentation and help files.

I think for every single patch since 5.6 someone has said "Oh they'll do it this time" but the TGC has never, to my knowledge made an offical statement on the subject.

What is really annoying though, is that in 12 hours I've setup a brand new database driven website, a forum, and an online wiki, created a template for it, rendered graphics files, wrote a little legal jargon, intergrated the forum into the website, written a few news stories, and managed to list all the ODE and Multiplayer commands on the Wiki Site, and duplicate this work onto the main website. The only other aid has come from SirFire who's uploaded a fair number of commands as well. Granted they are not very detailed yet, but that's simply because I've never used any of the ODE or Multiplayer Plus commands before, the Developers of DBP can hardly say the same thing. My point is, all these people have to do is write one single file and upload it to the website in a quick installer. Clearly help file writing is not hard, and it's certainly not as hard as starting a new website from scratch. Come on TGC, get your act together.

Run before you can walk, always raise the stakes higher, always keep moving, because you never know who's catching up.

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Nicholas Thompson

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Posted: 18th Jan 2006 22:11

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@kenjar - what are you on about in that post?

http://forum.antiblog.com, http://thingy-ma-jig.co.uk/new/

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Lost in Thought

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Location: U.S.A. : Douglas, Georgia

Posted: 18th Jan 2006 22:46

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DBP isn't in any shape yet for an upgraded help files. I'm sure once U6 comes out and it is stabilized more they can work on the help files more. Also I may be wrong but it seems to me that once the help files are done DBP will be in a state that is good enough to become virtually unsupported like DBC. Everyone keeps comparing the DBC help to DBP's, well DBC is finished and unsupported. If it isn't that stable there is no reason to make help files that will be constantly changing and confuse everyone. Also as Rich stated, alot of the commands that are complained about were intruduced as unsupported commands.

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Kenjar

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Location: TGC

Posted: 18th Jan 2006 22:54 Edited at: 18th Jan 2006 23:05

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to: Lost in thought

If DBP is to keep itself in the buisness they will have to keep developing it forever, I find it very strange that people think "Oh 6.0 will solve all our problems!" because eventually, providing these people say in buisness and there's no reason to think they won't, they will start producing 6.1, then 6.2, etc and in a few years, once 64-bit technology, Direct X 10, and vista become normal DBP will have to be adapted or rewritten completely. Then, we will be in the same position as now. 6.0 isn't going to be the end of it, each new point one has added a new command to the collection, and not once have the managed to produce a complete and truthful help file, there's always some undocumented command, or incompletely documented feature. I don't care for the excuse "they only have two people" even if I can setup a website and update most of the new commands, even if only with their names, and the variables they accept, there is no reason in the world why the TGC or these two guys can't do the same, what would it do? Set back the development of 6.0, or FPSC, or some other project a few days? Perhaps a week? It's hardly going to kill their buisness, and who knows, proper documentation might even improve it. I've certainly seen a fair number of DBP's on ebay.

Quote: "The 'decoder ring' would be the full C++ source code to the ODE DBPro plugin we released. You don't have the C++ code to the rest of the DBPro libraries, so you can't work out exactly what parameters certain functions take, it's all trial and error. But with the ODE ones you have the code right there infront of you. One heck of a 'decoder' ring if you ask me."

If I had wanted to spend my time tralling though C++ code, then I wouldn't have purchased DarkBASIC Pro in the first place. You might as well be giving me detailed instructions in german (which I don't speak, read or understand). It does strike me as rather worrying that the TGC and some of it's moderators think that adding an impressive, and important technology such as a powerful physics engine, that everyone is going to want to use, then not telling us how, is a good idea.

Run before you can walk, always raise the stakes higher, always keep moving, because you never know who's catching up.

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Lost in Thought

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Posted: 18th Jan 2006 23:07

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DBP isn't the only thing they sell. And by U6 I am referring to the 6.* series of upgrades. I do think they will be the last.

Quote: "once 64-bit technology, Direct X 10, and vista become normal DBP will have to be adapted or rewritten completely. "

Agreed, that is why I have said that U6 series will be the last of DBP upgrades and they will make a new version and sell it as they did with DBC. And as I said befor if this version of DBP is in pretty good shape then I will buy the next one, if not then I learned my lesson.

Still if they would have updated the help files along and along as they updated DBP then yes it would not have cost them much time, and DBP would be better for it. However there is too much to sift through and fix now to do it in a week. So I am happy waiting until they fix the bugs and then fix the docs. I don't want to wait 3 months or more for the next update just for them to fix the docs. If they fix the collision and the hide limb and hide object slowdown bugs, I will have pretty much everything I need to finish my project. If anyone needs help with any of the commands, just ask someone else or post for now. I help people all the time with alot of commands. Once Jess's help is finished, someone will make an offline version I am sure. I will be helping with Jess's help when the new setup is done.

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the_winch

22

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Location: Oxford, UK

Posted: 18th Jan 2006 23:35 Edited at: 18th Jan 2006 23:38

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Quote: "'m sure once U6 comes out and it is stabilized more they can work on the help files more."

U6 has been talked about since before the latter part of 2003. It could a long time until it is realised if ever. If I was tgc I would keep with 5.x, 5.10, 5.11 etc just to avoid releasing U6 which has been hyped up to fix every problem and can only be a big disappointment.

Once dbpro is done they will have something else to work on. It's not like they will be sitting around with nothing else to do but write help files for an end of line product.

If we want better help files we will have to write them ourselves instead of adding to the mountain of things U6 will make better.

By way of demonstration, he emitted a batlike squeak that was indeed bothersome.

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Kenjar

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Posted: 19th Jan 2006 10:59

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@the_witch

Agreed, and while jessticulars website is very good, and I'll say nothing against it, it's not an easy web address to remember. I've spend the last 36 hours setting up a brand new website, and now it's basically a matter of adding commands to it, there's 156 items of help on both the Wiki and main website (the wiki can be edited by anyone and everyone, while the main website is under my control, protecting the information we have from vandalisam). Once the command list reachs a 1000 commands (and the new ODE, and Multiplayer plus command and known parameters have already been added) then it's time to compile the information into a downloadable installer for DarkBASIC Pro.

I'm using the tempory website address [href]www.gamersol.co.uk[/href]until my new domain name is registered.

Run before you can walk, always raise the stakes higher, always keep moving, because you never know who's catching up.

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Nicholas Thompson

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Posted: 19th Jan 2006 11:15

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@Kenjar - Jess has registered DarkBasicHelp.com, hence you not being able to get it. How is that not easy to remember?

hehe...

You also never answered my last question.

http://forum.antiblog.com, http://thingy-ma-jig.co.uk/new/

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Kenjar

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Posted: 19th Jan 2006 12:59

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lol, if it is going to jess's site then fine no problems here, it was around before mine was. But unless the site undergoes a massive reconstruction it's no where near as advanced as mine is, an open wiki for everyone, it's own intergrated forums, and a permanant home for the wiki enteries on the main website to protect the existing work from vandalisam, and eventually, hopefully within a couple of weeks it will be in the position to generate a downloadable helpfile for everyone, with a list of credits at the bottom of cause for those people who have registered with the site and wiki.

I've also added the ability for any user who registers with the website, and asks for it, to produce articles, news, and tutorials. I'm not bothering with a codebase because there is one on the TGC website that does the job.

In reguards my previous post that you could not understand, I went back afterwards and re-worded it, still might not make sense though, I sometimes speak a privet language of my very own.

Run before you can walk, always raise the stakes higher, always keep moving, because you never know who's catching up.

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jrowe

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Location: Here

Posted: 19th Jan 2006 23:39 Edited at: 19th Jan 2006 23:46

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Quote: "But unless the site undergoes a massive reconstruction"

I'm not exactly sure what's going on, but If I remember correctly, that's one of the reasons Jess' site is currently refusing new entries. They're redesigning on the whole way it works, e.g implementing a html source code highlighter and automatic .chm file production for standard help files.

Tinnedhead Productions
For Fathers and Sons who enjoy wholy spirits.

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DarkBASIC Professional Discussion / VOTE for updated help files