Sorry your browser is not supported!

You are using an outdated browser that does not support modern web technologies, in order to use this site please update to a new browser.

Browsers supported include Chrome, FireFox, Safari, Opera, Internet Explorer 10+ or Microsoft Edge.

Geek Culture / Indie Game Ratings

Author
Message
Saikoro
21
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 6th Oct 2003
Location: California
Posted: 23rd Mar 2006 04:07
Maybe a top-developer list, and a list for the individual ratings. This would make it beneficial if, say, you wanted to have an option to view only items under a certain rating, that way you could simply block a page of items rather than snip out every 17+ rating through the list.

Another idea I had was maybe being able to review the games and give them a rating on a 1-10 scale? There could be a user review and admin review ala download.com. Just to make the site more. Of course, we could also just make that a seperate project altogether...

And the meek shall inherit the Earth...
Jeku
Moderator
21
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 4th Jul 2003
Location: Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada
Posted: 23rd Mar 2006 04:56
Having a developer list would be fine, as it would be handled by the database, and the data is essentially already there.

I don't think we should do anything except give the content rating. If we start doing game reviews, and Top 10s, etc., then we will not look professional. It's good to have the full game list on the site, however, but if we start doing stuff just to fill the site up, then it will not look legit (in my opinion).

Of course, this is a democracy

Saikoro
21
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 6th Oct 2003
Location: California
Posted: 23rd Mar 2006 04:59
Yeah, and after I posted it, thats kind of what went through my mind. We're not exactly trying to be the ebaumsworld of indie games, just raters. However, giving reviews about WHY we gave the game a certain rating would, IMO, be beneficial to both potential buyers and developers alike.

And the meek shall inherit the Earth...
Bizar Guy
19
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 20th Apr 2005
Location: Bostonland
Posted: 23rd Mar 2006 08:18
Hey, I'll register with you... do you plan to rate freeware games as well as shareware? If so I've got a game you could rate pretty soon... if not, I won't have a shareware game ready for quite some time.

Saikoro
21
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 6th Oct 2003
Location: California
Posted: 23rd Mar 2006 08:37
I don't think it should be limited to the price of the game.. anything indie should be accepted.

Also, I wouldn't think it to be a good idea if you were to favor DarkBASIC or anything in the site, I know no one has said it, but I figure I'd put it out just in case. That way the Blitzers and other coders wouldn't be put off by the whole idea that they may be supporting a DarkBASIC ordeal, when in fact its just a group of people who are willing to rate games for higher authenticity.

Once again, I have to say this is a great thing going here, lets just hope it gets its feet off the ground.

And the meek shall inherit the Earth...
Cash Curtis II
19
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 8th Apr 2005
Location: Corpus Christi Texas
Posted: 23rd Mar 2006 11:09 Edited at: 23rd Mar 2006 11:24
Outside of this community, advertise it like it has nothing specifically to do with DarkBasic, just indie games.

I'll rate my game with you guys too. It will be ready in a couple months. It's not my RPG, but it's built with a lot of the same parts. I'm through with the engine, I'm working on levels.


Jess T
Retired Moderator
21
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 20th Sep 2003
Location: Over There... Kablam!
Posted: 23rd Mar 2006 15:42
Again, why are you talking about 'fees'?

Do not... I repeat: DO NOT charge for anything related to the ratings!

Look, if we're going to do this, it's going to be an Organization - It's going to be volunteer - and it's going to be NOT FOR PROFIT.

Indie games are ( for the most part ) not for profit, so why should we ( as indie developers ourselves ) suddenly be making money?

If a poor Uni student ( like me ) who rocks up on the site with a game sees the 'Re-ratings carry a levy of $5', I'll just leave and submitt it to ESRB and happily wait.

DO NOT charge for anything... Not a single thing.

You will give off a completely unprofessional impression if you are giving out free ratings, but then charging if they want it re-rated ( What's to stop them re-submitting the game again, and getting a fresh rating that way?... Nothing [unless our raters have supurb memories] ).

This should be a volunteer effort - Those people of the Indie scene (Here, IndieGamer, GameDev, Gamasutra, etc ) that are commited to providing the free services that help everyone to get that little step up to the big time should be the ones volunteering, not someone who has simply been a member of the DBP forum for 3 years and had xx number of posts...

I'm probably sounding a bit harsh, but think about it... Do you want this to kick off and be taken seriously? Then think about what YOU would do ( honestly, don't kid yourself ) when you release a game...
For the most part, you would never even think about getting your game rated, but if you did... Would you go somewhere that charges stupid petty fees for re-rating, or somewhere that is 100% free like TIGRS?


... Think about it.

Team EOD :: All-Round Nice Guy
Want Better dbHelp Files?
Saikoro
21
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 6th Oct 2003
Location: California
Posted: 23rd Mar 2006 15:48
I have to agree with you, Jessticular (btw, its been a while mate ). This basically wavers down to making money to keep support going, or going free and taking a chance at losing people. However, as Jess said, indie developers will most likely be turned away by the fact that there is any pricing at all. Therefore, the most anyone would make out of it is pocket change, and even then, we'd feel like we took advantage for something as simple as a re-rate. Stick with going free, and think of it as "for indie developers, by indie developers".

And the meek shall inherit the Earth...
Jess T
Retired Moderator
21
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 20th Sep 2003
Location: Over There... Kablam!
Posted: 23rd Mar 2006 15:55
There you go... A Perfect slogan!

"For Indie Developers, By Indie Developers".

That about sums it up, really?

(Long time, no speek, Mat )

Team EOD :: All-Round Nice Guy
Want Better dbHelp Files?
Saikoro
21
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 6th Oct 2003
Location: California
Posted: 23rd Mar 2006 16:09
So who's up for making a EULA?

I wouldn't mind doing it, of course I'd need all your inputs as well.

Some things I've been thinking about what the EULA should specify are: 1. The full extent of our services, 2. The rules that we abide by when rating and such, 3. The rules that the submitting developer must abide by (such as not abusing the system and not charging us for the game if it happens to have a price tag), 4. anything else?

And the meek shall inherit the Earth...
Jeku
Moderator
21
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 4th Jul 2003
Location: Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada
Posted: 23rd Mar 2006 19:06
Yes, there should be no fees whatsoever, and there shouldn't be any mention of DarkBasic or TGC anywhere on the site. It has to be completely unbiased, and really--- what do we care what language the game was made with? It's all about the content of the game.

And we need to have a form for the author where he/she fills out what can be considered important to the raters, in explicit detail (i.e. nudity, gore, etc.) This is what the ESRB does in one way or another, and it alleviates the testers from having to play and complete the entire game. If we had an RPG submitted to us that takes 40+ hours to complete, then it's a waste of time for the raters to have to visually experience every single aspect and path of the game.

the_winch
21
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 1st Feb 2003
Location: Oxford, UK
Posted: 23rd Mar 2006 20:29
Quote: "For the most part, you would never even think about getting your game rated, but if you did... Would you go somewhere that charges stupid petty fees for re-rating, or somewhere that is 100% free like TIGRS?"


I think that's something that nobody has really answered yet. How is this going to translate to more downloads and sales? If it doesn't why is anyone going to bother?
At the moment it sounds like yet another software directory with a slight twist. There are millions of these sites already. Lots of them will review software and give you an image to put on your website, most of them even have user reviews.

By way of demonstration, he emitted a batlike squeak that was indeed bothersome.
Saikoro
21
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 6th Oct 2003
Location: California
Posted: 23rd Mar 2006 21:24
But this one isn't a user review site, and it is being made to be something of the authority on indie game ratings, such as ESRB. Don't think there'll be downloads.

And the meek shall inherit the Earth...
Matt Rock
19
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 5th Mar 2005
Location: Binghamton NY USA
Posted: 24th Mar 2006 00:52
Quote: "How is this going to translate to more downloads and sales? If it doesn't why is anyone going to bother"

It's a ratings system, and that's it. We rate your game based on the content as it relates to sensitive subject matter. If we can establish the IGRB as a respectable/ reputable organization with a proven track-record of honesty and integrity then having our rating on a title will bring forth a level of integrity and professionalism to your gaming titles. The website will list why your game recieved its rating and icons, and will have a sub-directory that lists all of the games you've had rated, plus the ratings they've recieved, which for some detail-oriented consumers may prove to be another avenue for exploring the games you develop.

As for the money thing: You have a really good point there Jess. But we should seriously discuss cost margins, if there are any... is there anything that's going to cost us capital here? Most non-profit organizations have either official government support (which we might not be eligible for because we're an international group) or they live and breath based on donations they receive. The IDGA, for example, is a NFP group, and with each annual print they need to report their earnings, losses, etc. But they have an actual office and whatnot... if we're based on the net, we shouldn't have even close to the same expenses that they have.

But we should accept donations because lets face it: people will want to stick around with the organization longer and they'll be more honest and dedicated if there's a stipend involved. Not that it would probably be very big, but I think all of us who are involved should get a small amount of the donations for all of the hard work we'll be doing to keep this thing up and running. This is, in my opinion anyway, especially true for the web developers and the ratings officials: Jeku, did it cost you anything to register the site? What will it cost to keep the site and server up and running 24/7/365, including the database of developers and titles and all that fun stuff? And the ratings officials should get something, probably moreso than the e-board members, because it's their hard work testing these games for hours and hours and filling out reports and whatnot that will keep us afloat. The charges would have been a decent alternative source for income, but you made a really valid arguement so now I agree, let's ditch the idea... but how will we divide up the donations? I think we should discuss that.

I'm writing up a full charter, which we'd release via PDF (and maybe even by mail if we could afford that) to the developers and media sources that we work with. It includes information regarding a range of topics, including who we are and why we're doing this, our income/ expense reports, rules for developers and submission details, a detailed explanation of our ratings system, etc. It'll probably end up being 30 pages long (somewhere in there), and it'll be finished as soon as we've defined the group fully because I'm writing it as we discuss these things. The EULA might not be applicable to this group because we aren't distributing anything to the developers other than the ratings logos, which aren't software (there isn't technically an end-user). But we should have some formal license agreement that we distribute, something short and to-the-point that goes out to every single developer who wants to work with us... if you want to write it, be my guest my hands are pretty full with the charter.

- Matt

PS.- When the charter is done I'll post it so everyone can explain what changes they want to see. I'm not putting anything in it that we haven't all agreed on so most of those changes will probably end up being aesthetic.


"Hell is an Irish Pub where it's St. Paddy's day all year long" ~ Christopher, The Sopranos
Jess T
Retired Moderator
21
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 20th Sep 2003
Location: Over There... Kablam!
Posted: 24th Mar 2006 02:01
Hey, glad we're in agreance about the money issue

I don't mind donations - Infact, I've come across many a free service site that I've found more than usefull and wanted to give donations (but don't have any money to ), So through personal experience, if we provide, then those who realize that this is a real-world thing that does have expenses will be happy to hand over $5 or $10 here and there just out of generosity!

Team EOD :: All-Round Nice Guy
Want Better dbHelp Files?
Cash Curtis II
19
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 8th Apr 2005
Location: Corpus Christi Texas
Posted: 24th Mar 2006 02:09
Quote: "people will want to stick around with the organization longer and they'll be more honest and dedicated if there's a stipend involved"

You've got plenty of pretty stable people on this forum willing to volunteer. I doubt a small stipend is going to keep anyone involved. How much would it possibly be? $10? I'd be insulted, personally.

The work won't be that hard, anyway. Playing games, rating them, bulding a website. It's stuff that most people will be able to add to their portfolio of accomplishments. Saying "I was on the IGRB rating committe for 2 years", and it has become a good organization, that would be wonderful.

If I release a software product, and it is rated by you guys, I'd certainly donate some money. I think using that money as a stipend would be a poor use of resources, when the help is free.

Matt Rock
19
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 5th Mar 2005
Location: Binghamton NY USA
Posted: 24th Mar 2006 05:14
The stipend is more a sign of gratuity, so to speak. At the radio station, they had e-board members dropping left and right back in the 80's, so they introduced the stipend in the early 90's and, like magic, people started to stay... it was a sign of good faith, that the station wanted to give more and would if they could. Maybe it was some other administrative thing, but I dunno, it seemed to work pretty well. The stipends would be small, as most of the money will go towards the servers and advertising (if we decide to do that... could we advertise without coming across as tacky?). But if by some miracle the group takes in a butt-load of donations it would mean a lot to some members if they saw a small cut of it. $5-$20 a month isn't much to some people, but to others, that's a slice of their cable bill, or a take-out dinner, or service for their website, or a video rental fee that they wouldn't need to worry about. Isn't much, but might be meaningful to some people.

Also, we'll want the raters working hard. To play a game and enjoy it is one thing, but to play a game, pause, take a bunch of notes and fill out some forms, then play it some more... it's almost as harsh as testing, which we all know can be pretty annoying at times. I think it's only fair that our ratings officials get a small stipend.

Most non-profit organizations (in New York anyway) pay their executive boards... not much usually but enough to help keep the lights on. I'm not saying we should take in $50k a year with benefits (like we could afford that, lol), but small stipends, as I said, could be that small extra incentive for some people. I've seen it work at the radio station (those stipends were between $5 and $50, depending on the university's budgeting)... maybe it could work with us.


"Hell is an Irish Pub where it's St. Paddy's day all year long" ~ Christopher, The Sopranos
BearCDPOLD
21
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 16th Oct 2003
Location: AZ,USA
Posted: 24th Mar 2006 06:49
A bold and necessary initiative, glad it's getting up and going.


I'm going to eat you!
Jeku
Moderator
21
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 4th Jul 2003
Location: Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada
Posted: 24th Mar 2006 18:18
Who gets charged the stipend then? Every author who submits a game? I believe that would make the entire thing crash and die before it even gets off the ground. I understand that it's nice to get a little bit of money here and there (to pay for coffee, etc.) but I assume we all have jobs as it is, and myself I'm not doing this for the money. It would be a good thing to tack onto my resume for the future.

The hosting and domain name costs are cheap---- definitely not something that hit the wallet hard.

Matt Rock
19
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 5th Mar 2005
Location: Binghamton NY USA
Posted: 24th Mar 2006 23:25
No one gets charged anything... the stipends are deducted from a small percentage of our income (that being donations). Plus, the hosting/ domain charges shouldn't be your responsibility. It would be great if the organization itself paid you for the hosting costs and whatnot, I mean it's only fair. But that wouldn't be a stipend, I think that would just come directly from donations and you'd earn a stipend on top of that (again, depending on how we do with donations annually).


"Hell is an Irish Pub where it's St. Paddy's day all year long" ~ Christopher, The Sopranos
Jeku
Moderator
21
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 4th Jul 2003
Location: Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada
Posted: 25th Mar 2006 02:42 Edited at: 25th Mar 2006 02:44
Ahhhh, I see. Okay that's cool, as long as it's completely transparent to the public. Is it tacky to have a Paypal donation box on the site?

But yes, anytime Anime Blood or Megaton finish the site template, please send it to my email address in a zip and I'll upload it to the server. Then I'll get to work on the administration module (section for adding games, ratings, etc.)

Do you think we should have an administration forum on the site? I can stick a private forum in a secret subdirectory of igrb.com so we can further discuss things there. How do you guys feel about this?

Cian Rice
20
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 8th Jun 2004
Location:
Posted: 25th Mar 2006 03:14
Okay so I'll just arrange everything with only a paypal button in mind. Which should fit easily with privacy policy links,etc on the bottom of the page.

[url=http://profile.mygamercard.net/Fryedrycestyle]

[/url]
BearCDPOLD
21
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 16th Oct 2003
Location: AZ,USA
Posted: 25th Mar 2006 04:21
It shouldn't be too tacky to have a link to a page for paypal donations or a paypal button, Wikipedia is putting out donation requests.


I'm going to eat you!
Jess T
Retired Moderator
21
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 20th Sep 2003
Location: Over There... Kablam!
Posted: 25th Mar 2006 07:07
Not sure if you're interested, but I wrote the content management systems for both www.impalasolutions.net and www.villagefair.net.au ( down untill the commity is re-formed ), and I'm more than happy to offer up the source for both ( It's mostly spaghetti code with inline HTML, but it works, and is relatively clean ).

Design isn't quite my forte, but I'm happy to share the knowledge of human perception with anyone if they ask as well

Like Jeku said, it's definatly a good thing to stick on your Resume, and registering and hosting a domain is trivial these days; Cheap as chips (literally!), so as I keep saying, I'll help out

Team EOD :: All-Round Nice Guy
Want Better dbHelp Files?
Saikoro
21
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 6th Oct 2003
Location: California
Posted: 25th Mar 2006 07:15
I request, nor do I want any kind of stipend, and I don't care if you start making a junkie load of donations, I will never ask for cash. (Mainly cuz of teh Resume thing <.< )

And the meek shall inherit the Earth...
Jeku
Moderator
21
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 4th Jul 2003
Location: Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada
Posted: 25th Mar 2006 09:14 Edited at: 25th Mar 2006 09:15
Alright dooders, email me if you want an invite to the IGRB administration forum. This is simply a way for us to continue chatting in private. If this is a lame idea, then I'll remove the forum, no problem. I think it's good for us to continue without having the entire world know of our plans etc.

It will also be a place where we can discuss ratings among ourselves, etc. Not for public eyes.

EDIT:

Make sure you tell me your TGC forum username in the email so I know who you are :-P

Matt Rock
19
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 5th Mar 2005
Location: Binghamton NY USA
Posted: 25th Mar 2006 19:35
I like the idea of a private forum but I think we should keep this thread going also in the hopes that it might get more of the "local" community involved. We might also want a completely separate public forum for people to voice their concerns, but we should discuss the forum headers as a group I think.

I don't think a paypal donation thing would be tacky, as long as it isn't on every single page with big huge "give us money" labels everywhere. We should make our best effort to note to the general public and the gaming industry that donations will have no effect on your rating, nor will it adjust the speed at which your rating is alotted.

In terms of documentation, besides the official charter, what else would we need? Obviously we'd need a ratings application for developers, complete with some form of contract that stipulates we'll rate the game for free but you can't self-rate if you aren't happy with the rating we give you, all of that stuff. We'll also need some sort of press release for the general public so that consumers are aware of our ratings. Is there anything else I'm missing?


"Hell is an Irish Pub where it's St. Paddy's day all year long" ~ Christopher, The Sopranos
Matt Rock
19
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 5th Mar 2005
Location: Binghamton NY USA
Posted: 29th Mar 2006 06:36
I'm only posting to keep this thread alive. The charter is giving me trouble because I'm trying to write it so everyone will agree with what it says, and hence I won't need to spend hours and hours doing revision after revision How's the site coming along?


"Hell is an Irish Pub where it's St. Paddy's day all year long" ~ Christopher, The Sopranos
Saikoro
21
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 6th Oct 2003
Location: California
Posted: 29th Mar 2006 07:16
Charter? Did I miss something? I can't see anything on the forums or otherwise...

And the meek shall inherit the Earth...
Jeku
Moderator
21
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 4th Jul 2003
Location: Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada
Posted: 29th Mar 2006 09:01 Edited at: 29th Mar 2006 09:01
Yes, that was my fault. I tried to make the forums invisible until you signed in (for double protection), but ended up making the forums invisible permanently-- except for me, so I had no idea you guys couldn't see it.

It's fixed now

Thanks to BearCDP for alerting me about it hehehe...

Cash Curtis II
19
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 8th Apr 2005
Location: Corpus Christi Texas
Posted: 29th Mar 2006 11:14
Quote: "I will never ask for cash. (Mainly cuz of teh Resume thing <.< )"

I had to re-read that several times to understand it...

BearCDPOLD
21
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 16th Oct 2003
Location: AZ,USA
Posted: 30th Mar 2006 02:04
Glad to ensure forum reading for all Jeku.
I was just slightly confused at the, blankness, now you'll have plenty of company.


I'm going to eat you!
Matt Rock
19
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 5th Mar 2005
Location: Binghamton NY USA
Posted: 30th Mar 2006 22:38
But we should still keep this thread here open to alert potential new members


"Hell is an Irish Pub where it's St. Paddy's day all year long" ~ Christopher, The Sopranos
Cian Rice
20
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 8th Jun 2004
Location:
Posted: 2nd Apr 2006 02:42
Hey guys sorry I didn't get you the layout. I've been really busy and hope to have it for Tuesday.

[url=http://profile.mygamercard.net/Fryedrycestyle]

[/url]
Matt Rock
19
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 5th Mar 2005
Location: Binghamton NY USA
Posted: 2nd Apr 2006 03:42
No biggie, I'm still dodging through the charter, but with a full time job plus my own indie studio to run, free time is a little hard to come by. I'm currently working 100 to 110+ hours per week between the two (40 hours at the regular full-time job, and then an additional 60-70 hours at the other one, and sometimes I get to sleep). How's that for dedication?


"Hell is an Irish Pub where it's St. Paddy's day all year long" ~ Christopher, The Sopranos

Login to post a reply

Server time is: 2024-11-16 19:27:17
Your offset time is: 2024-11-16 19:27:17