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Geek Culture / Well this sucks

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Pincho Paxton
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Posted: 15th May 2006 10:53
Quote: "If I had to pay someone in my office to fix 5 pcs which took an hour each on average per week for spyware crapware and general virii at $80 per hour is $20000."


In business though you don't have to be connected to the internet on those computers. Without an internet connection you just about never get virus, or spyware.

indi
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Posted: 15th May 2006 11:08
your missing the point but i wont bother to elaborate its not worth it anymore.
enjoy this thread

If no-one gives your an answer to a question you have asked, consider:- Is your question clear.- Did you ask nicely.- Are you showing any effort to solve the problem yourself 
Steve J
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Posted: 15th May 2006 18:00 Edited at: 15th May 2006 18:02
He is trying to say that because pc's have more virii, and spyware, and it wrecks them, it costs the industry thousands, but if they switched to something more secure (For Example, linux, osx, unix, bsd) then they could use that left over money (and the money from the window's license) to help the business

=AMD x2 4800+,2gig ddr400,nvidia 6800 XFX oc'd -dual-,80gig hdd=
Seppuku Arts
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Posted: 15th May 2006 19:07 Edited at: 15th May 2006 19:35
Quote: "Wait a sec--- that's ironic. Aren't Mac users supposed to be the drag-n-drop BASIC lovers, and PC users supposed to be the l337 assembly-language coders? Or--- what? My brain is fried.

"


That isn't really that true, yes a lot of the more creative people tend to go towards Macs for some drag and drop stuff, but there are still those who'd rather make games by coding, although they are fewer in number, but that might simply because of the range of support for Direct X like in Blitz 3D, Dark Basic, Truevision, Direct X SDK, but things like Torque or Ogre seem to be giving Mac some credit towards game making

Quote: "All I say to the Mac vs. PC argument is--- show me the games! Show me the games! Haven't seen any good Mac-only games since Bungie's Marathon."


It seems Macs have been favoured by designers, music editors and whatever fits into the category of creativity and computers, but there are Mac games, there might not be as many;
I'll list a few for you straight from Amazon;
World Of Warcraft
Zoo Vet
Sims 2
Myst
Quake 4
Diablo2
Fable
Football manager
C&C
Age of Mythology
Call of Duty 2
Unreal Tournament
Doom 3
Neverwinter Nights
Tomb Raider : Angel Of Darkness
The Incredibles
Halo
Splinter Cell

and like I said, no point arguing about this subject, it will never be resolved

Yey! I removed the sig...
A Llama called Dalai
Matt Rock
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Posted: 15th May 2006 21:10
Microsoft is an evil corporation run by an evil nerd king who doesn't give a flippin' crap about you, your business, what you use your computer for, or anything else other than what's inside your wallet. Period. Why do you think Windows XP is such a resource hog? Because they wanted to make a great OS that could do a bunch of crap, or was it because they wanted to purposefully eat up your system resources so you had to upgrade by force? I absolutely love it when people defend Microsoft and champion them as if they've EVER done ANYTHING for ANYONE that was positive. They haven't, they never will, and that's how the evil three (Microsoft, Walmart, Starbucks) operate. All three of these corporations need to be overrun by ninja monkeys and burned to the ground!


"In an interstellar burst, I'm back to save the universe"
Jeku
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Posted: 15th May 2006 21:29
Quote: "I absolutely love it when people defend Microsoft and champion them as if they've EVER done ANYTHING for ANYONE that was positive. They haven't, they never will"


You're in the wrong field of business if you think that MS has never done anything for this industry. Sure they have a history of bad business practices, but they were also largely responsible for a PC on every desk in every house and in every business. Can't see anything wrong with that.

Seppuku Arts
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Posted: 15th May 2006 21:35
Actually...( I'm defending Microsoft?) Windows is good when it comes to what it is used for, but it has its issues that really p**s me off, like if you don't have enough security your gonna get problems if you surf the net, and once you have that amount it slows your computer down, and other issues like I've had to reformat my hard drive 6 times since I got it because of problems that majorly effected me and I could not figure the problem, but thats due to the security of the bugger, which comes to my original point I towards the beginning of the topic, however as long as it doesn't do anything to annoy me, it does pretty great for itself.

But to return back onto topic, I think these chips wouldn't be necessary if Microsoft did make their OS have better security, I mean if you're willing to solve the problem through Hardware and have limitations, wouldn't it be better to use that energy and effort into making a decent security system that protects the computer from anything or almost anything malicious.

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Jeku
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Posted: 16th May 2006 01:10 Edited at: 16th May 2006 01:12
It is impossible to protect computers from malicious code. Period.

And now we're back to square one. The reason Windows is plagued by viruses and spyware is because it has 90% of the market. It's *not* due to the amount of security holes, bugs, etc. Every OS has security holes and bugs.

Seppuku Arts
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Posted: 16th May 2006 01:25
To be honest, I can't really be arsed, so this is my last comment on this matter, I do not know the structures of OS's, but logically (attempting not to start another PC vs Mac arguement again) there are Mac users out there wanting to break the system for viruses, but there is something in their administrative structure (so I have been told) makes it extremely difficult (Not impossible obviously) to break around it, which is why Macs aren't prone to viruses, I know there is less in the Mac population, but think out of the number of hackers who have tried to make viruses, only a very few found a loophole to make one, then Apple figures it out, it may not be a perfect structure, but my point is if Microsoft decided to put more into their structure, perhaps the security could be a lot better.

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Pincho Paxton
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Posted: 16th May 2006 01:39
If they (Macs) do get a Virus though you are screwed because you have no Virus Killers... (Or very few.) Try looking on Google for one.

Jeku
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Posted: 16th May 2006 05:29
Quote: "Macs aren't prone to viruses"


That is a *myth*, and there's no two ways about it. Every single OS is prone to viruses. And no, there's aren't teams of hackers trying to break Apple's OS--- there's no point. If they release a virus, they're going to affect about 1% of the businesses. If they release a virus on Windows, they'll affect a far greater number. It's all about math.

Quote: "But think out of the number of hackers who have tried to make viruses, only a very few found a loophole to make one, then Apple figures it out,"


Actually Apple knew about their most recent exploit for something like seven months before fixing it. I don't know why people think they're gods :-P

Toby Quan
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Posted: 16th May 2006 15:33 Edited at: 16th May 2006 15:34
I'm not sure what Microsoft has to do with this. The link says that "the TCPA was founded 1999 by Compaq, HP, IBM, Intel and Microsoft. There were 5 companies listed, but all everyone here talks about is the fifth. What about the other four?

Anyway, this could never work, so don't worry about it. If this were enacted, then companies couldn't write their own programs to put on their work computers, like programs to track inventory, or custom made software to perform case management.

Just even take the example of the login script! We always modify it, and write custom programs to put into it in order to update all of our work computers. It sounds like this "TCPA" wouldn't even let things like the login script run on a computer. Give me a break! This will never happen.
Seppuku Arts
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Posted: 16th May 2006 19:23
Quote: "Actually Apple knew about their most recent exploit for something like seven months before fixing it. I don't know why people think they're gods :-P"


I don't think they're gods, I just prefer them to Microsoft, and think their security is better. But you do get weirdos who kneel before their Mac bowing down to them chanting apple, and I know people like that for PC's, and there are those for just about every electronic thing (Holy Nokia 3650, we're not worthy!, okay, not every electronic thing )

Quote: "That is a *myth*, and there's no two ways about it. Every single OS is prone to viruses. And no, there's aren't teams of hackers trying to break Apple's OS--- there's no point. If they release a virus, they're going to affect about 1% of the businesses. If they release a virus on Windows, they'll affect a far greater number. It's all about math."


Well they're not as prone to them, when writing that I was thinking 'accident prone' yet everybody is prone to accidents

Macs are not perfect, nor are Windows or Linux, but I find that Macs are the best of all three which is why I stuck up for them, and I do think this whole thing would have been avoided if Microsoft made Windows better than it already is, but I don't blame Microsoft for starting this whole thing, because obviously there are several others to blame. However I know you disagree, but neither of us are going to convince each other otherwise, now lets go and throw peanuts at people, then point and laugh

Quote: "I'm not sure what Microsoft has to do with this. The link says that "the TCPA was founded 1999 by Compaq, HP, IBM, Intel and Microsoft. There were 5 companies listed, but all everyone here talks about is the fifth. What about the other four?"


Not sure about others, but the reason I spoke about Microsoft has already been mentioned in this post, and mentioned a couple of times before

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Matt Rock
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Posted: 16th May 2006 19:51
Quote: "Compaq, HP, IBM, Intel and Microsoft. There were 5 companies listed, but all everyone here talks about is the fifth. What about the other four?"

Compaq was bought out by HP for packing peanuts, so we can group them together. They don't have as much "pull" in the industry as the other companies, so let's weed them out as orchestrators. IBM, founded right here in Binghamton New York (well, Endicott, a suburb of Binghamton), has a ton of pull in the industry, seeing as how they single-handedly made home computing viable... but the last time anyone bought an IBM Aptiva was 1994 or something, for personal home use anyway. They only make networking stuff, so lets weed them out too... and now we have two. Next there's Intel. Intel massively dominates the processor market, with AMD, their only competition, rumbling in their wake. But not every home computer has an Intel Chip... I'll bet that a lot of people reading this thread are running on AMD's, so let's scratch them off the list too. So who does that leave? Well, let me ask you this: What company monopolizes the home PC market with their problem-ridden resource hog of an OS? What company refuses to allow fair competition by buying out or undermining said competition? What company is known for shady practices arguably more than any other company in the computer business? If you guessed Microsoft you should win a prize

Quote: "Sure they have a history of bad business practices, but they were also largely responsible for a PC on every desk in every house and in every business. Can't see anything wrong with that.
"

You missed my point though... do you think they played such a major role in building the computer industry because they love their customers and want to see us happy? Or do you think they did it because they want to make a ton of money (and potentially take over the universe)? Some people might argue that Wal-Mart helps local economies, but all I see is them always destroying local businesses, paying and treating their employees unfairly, and otherwise uglifying the international business practice. Some might argue that Starbucks helps the coffee industry... do you know why they often build a starbucks right across the street from another Starbucks? It's not so they can satisfy their customers... it's a turf war to make sure other coffee joints don't open in their neighborhood. It's all very "bloods and cryps" in my opinion. Anyway, that's my point... sure they help the industry, but individuals and smaller businesses? They don't care %$@#-all about you, me, or any of us, and that's why I dislike and distrust them. Sorry if I'm overly passionate about this It's the snooty ny liberal in me, lol


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Jeku
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Posted: 16th May 2006 23:06
Quote: "but the last time anyone bought an IBM Aptiva was 1994 or something, for personal home use anyway."


Um, IBM is *humongous* in the business industry. The last two companies I worked for (including the one I work for now) have only IBM PCs, and they kick ass.

Quote: "do you think they played such a major role in building the computer industry because they love their customers and want to see us happy?"


There is no for-profit company on the face of the earth that truly puts customers first. If there's a large profit to be made, then that is what they'll do, and they'll screw over everyone in their way. Think of how Apple just screwed over the Beatles' Apple label. Apple computers made a deal with the Apple label that they could continue using the brandname as long as they didn't enter the music industry. Apple went right ahead anyways with iPod and iTunes, and won the case against the Apple label. Pretty much the label got screwed over.

Apple also screwed over the employees who worked at Xerox when they "borrowed" their GUI ideas.

Quote: "Some people might argue that Wal-Mart helps local economies, but all I see is them always destroying local businesses, paying and treating their employees unfairly, and otherwise uglifying the international business practice. Some might argue that Starbucks helps the coffee industry... do you know why they often build a starbucks right across the street from another Starbucks? It's not so they can satisfy their customers..."


Exactly. If there's a profit to be made, they will do what they want. That is called business. If I had enough money to open a Tim Horton's, I would do it as close to the competition as I could to squeeze some of their business. AFAIK Wal-Mart and Starbucks locations are owned by the franchisee.

Quote: "it's a turf war to make sure other coffee joints don't open in their neighborhood."


No, that's called business. Did you ever take a business marketing course? One of the key ways to grow is to do what the competition is doing, but cheaper, better, and faster. Buy out the competition, open up a store right next to them, or whatever. That's how you survive, because if you don't do it, they will. If Starbucks wasn't around, it would be Seattle's Best (or whatever) taking over the coffee industry.

Quote: "It's the snooty ny liberal in me, lol"


*groan* Hello, I live in B.C., perhaps the most liberal, unionized province in the country. It's pretty bad here too

Matt Rock
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Posted: 17th May 2006 01:54
Quote: "Um, IBM is *humongous* in the business industry. The last two companies I worked for (including the one I work for now) have only IBM PCs, and they kick ass."

I didn't know that. They picked up and left here a few years ago, which I still don't understand seeing as how they were founded here (my dad worked for them). The last IBM computer I had was an Aptiva back when Packard-Bell was still a household name, before they were bought out by whoever.

Quote: "Think of how Apple just screwed over the Beatles' Apple label."

Which was stupid, seeing as how Apple the recording label existed Long, long, long before Apple the computer corporation did (notice the beatle's reference? hehe)

Quote: "Exactly. If there's a profit to be made, they will do what they want. That is called business. If I had enough money to open a Tim Horton's, I would do it as close to the competition as I could to squeeze some of their business. AFAIK Wal-Mart and Starbucks locations are owned by the franchisee."

That doesn't make it right, and if we as consumers stopped supporting such shady business practices we wouldn't have this issue because the tactic wouldn't work.

Take EA for example. They buy up all of these tiny, defenseless companies who have big ideas, slap the EA logo all over them, and turn these fantastic ideas into crap. Wal-mart? They shut down ALL of the local businesses that they possibly can because they're afraid of any kind of competition. Starbucks? When they moved into my city, they closed down seven (yes, seven) popular coffee businesses by simply moving in right next to them. There's a strip mall on the Vestal Parkway where Starbucks reportedly PURCHASED the entire strip mall and all eight stores therein, JUST so they could evict a local coffee emporium, JUST so they could put in a Starbucks to replace it, with crappy overpriced drinks and all... which is right across the street from another Starbucks. Am I the only person who thinks this is the wrongest wrong in the history of wrong? And UGH, Wal-mart. I read somewhere that with the amount of profit they turn over, they could pay all of their employees something like $50,000 and still turn a multi-billion dollar profit every year... but they don't, because they're greedy.

As I've said before... when my company grows up and releases a few super games, and we start earning massive amounts of money, I WILL NOT run my company like that. I won't buy out other developers. I won't start buying stocks in EB and Gamestop. All I'll do is buy myself a nice house, a nice car, and fill the house with some nice stuff... and not a palace, just a small three or four bedroom house, that's it. The rest of it? Paying my employees and pampering them, and everything that's left over is going to charity. And no one and nothing can stop me


"In an interstellar burst, I'm back to save the universe"
Jeku
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Posted: 17th May 2006 03:27 Edited at: 17th May 2006 03:30
Quote: "notice the beatle's reference?"


That song from Abbey Road, right?

Quote: "Starbucks? When they moved into my city, they closed down seven (yes, seven) popular coffee businesses by simply moving in right next to them."


Well that's your community's fault, obviously. If enough of you don't like the Starbucks, you can feel free to buy your coffee from any other over-priced coffee emporium.

For example, in my old city they opened up a Starbucks--- a 24-hour one at that, right next to Ethical Addictions and a few other small-time coffee places. Last time I checked it was just the regular yuppie Starbucks crowd in there, and all the regular Ethical Addictions people were still there. Starbucks didn't manage to remove anyone's business for good.

It's all about the bottom dollar. Don't think for one second that your small mom-and-pop coffee shop wouldn't do the same thing in Starbucks' position.

Quote: "I read somewhere that with the amount of profit they turn over, they could pay all of their employees something like $50,000 and still turn a multi-billion dollar profit every year... but they don't, because they're greedy."


No, it's because those people don't work to garner $50 grand pay. Come on, do you think the box boy and the front door greeter deserve anymore than minimum wage? I think not. Would you prefer communism where we all earn the same regardless of our job and rank?

I guess that's the difference between conservatives and liberals--- I will always stand by good business practices, but putting people out of business is *not* bad business practice. The *only* way to build up a strong company is to step on other's heads. If you don't believe me look at all the top companies across the world, including game companies. You have to pretty much be a prick to get up there.

EDIT:

And before you say it, no, I didn't come from a privileged family and I'm not the heir to a family fortune. I had to start from public school and get a degree from a community college, where hopefully one day I can be in business for myself. But right now I work for EA and I don't have any qualms about them because they started small (half a dozen guys) and through sweat and tears worked their way up to the #1 position. Now they're in something like 30 countries. That doesnt' come easy.

Matt Rock
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Posted: 17th May 2006 09:56 Edited at: 17th May 2006 09:56
Quote: "That song from Abbey Road, right?"

Yeppers... Long Long Long is one of my favorite beatles songs

Quote: "Well that's your community's fault, obviously. If enough of you don't like the Starbucks, you can feel free to buy your coffee from any other over-priced coffee emporium."

That's what I don't get. Starbucks charged more but drove those other businesses into the ground in about a year. But Wal-mart is the real killer in that scenario... it's gotten so bad that organizations of locally-owned businesses have had to band together to help keep Wal-Mart from closing them down. Wal-Mart comes in with underpriced (and typically crappier-quality) goods and local businesses either have to take massive losses to compete and keep customers or close up entirely... And NOW they're talking about Wal-mart banks, wal-mart apartment buildings, and some are even selling cars... they're looking to destroy every local business they possibly can. I don't see how that's fair OR justified, and if that's "business law," then the law is evil and was written by evil people.

Quote: "No, it's because those people don't work to garner $50 grand pay. Come on, do you think the box boy and the front door greeter deserve anymore than minimum wage? I think not. Would you prefer communism where we all earn the same regardless of our job and rank?"

It's just a case in point. How much profit do you need to turn over to have "enough?" And why can't they set new standards and pay their employees slightly more than minimum wage, and offer benefits? They could not only massively improve the lives of the thousands of people they employ, and re-shape the way business ethics are carried out, but they could do something small like that to give back to the communities they've destroyed. That, in my opinion, is a good business ethic.

Quote: "I guess that's the difference between conservatives and liberals--- I will always stand by good business practices, but putting people out of business is *not* bad business practice. The *only* way to build up a strong company is to step on other's heads."

There's nothing "good" about such practices. Putting people out of business and thinking it's a wonderful thing to do is one of the conservative points of view that made me into a firebrand liberal. Look at it this way to understand why I'm so upset... imagine your immigrating ancestors, when they came to the country, founded and established a clothing company. They didn't want to be some big multinational conglomerate cash cow... they just wanted a nice local business in their neighborhood where their neighbors and friends could come to shop and feel welcome. And for 200 years, this family business remained an established entity, surviving the great depression, both world wars, the 70's, and all of the other terrible eras in our nation's history. Then, in the late 1990's, Wal-Mart moved in. Your family's customer base starts to dwindle, and you find out Wal-Mart is offering similar products at lower prices, which THEY can afford due to mass production. Your family cuts their prices to compete, but can't get them too low or they won't be able to afford rent. At this juncture, they'll have two choices: (A) continue to run their business, proudly locally owned and operated for ages, at cut-throat prices that shove them into the red, or (B) close up shop. Not only does it ruin the family and the community, who loses valuable goods, but it hurts the history of that community, and it hurts the national economy because there are fewer and fewer small businesses. Not everyone dreams of one day owning a monsterous corporate entity... a lot of people are satisfied with just living comfortably. And if one day I'm super-successful and I can turn my company into a multi-billion dollar group, I'll bet you everything I own at that point in the future that I'll run my business with a polite attitude and won't do everything in my power to destroy my competition... and I'll also bet that I'll get pretty dang far in life doing just that

Quote: "But right now I work for EA and I don't have any qualms about them because they started small (half a dozen guys) and through sweat and tears worked their way up to the #1 position. Now they're in something like 30 countries. That doesnt' come easy.
"

Which doesn't matter diddly to me because the quality of their games has suffered tremendously because of it. If I were working on the Fight Night Round 4 team as a conceptual designer I'd turn that game into a cashcow because I actually give a crap about gamers... a group of people EA has long forgotten. If they spent less time strategizing on marketing maneuvers and more time focusing on gameplay, story development, and free thought, they'd actually start churning out games worth purchasing.

Quote: "And before you say it, no, I didn't come from a privileged family and I'm not the heir to a family fortune."

You know me better than to assume I'd ever say that, and I know you better than to assume that's where you're coming from in life


"In an interstellar burst, I'm back to save the universe"
Saikoro
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Posted: 17th May 2006 10:26
For once (maybe twice), I'd have to agree with Matt. It seems as though the only time Wal-Mart or other large organizations give to the community is when theres some sort of national disaster and they're more or less obligated and required to, else lose customers. Other than that, in my small town of Manteca (yes, it means lard), when Wal-Mart rolled into town, we lost EVERY local business save a quarter mile strip on one of our main streets. It was more than a little pathetic, and the business owners ended up having to look for jobs, some even went to the very much lower paying Wal-Mart for sustinance. Being in a smaller town like I am, people started complaining about that, and eventually started hating Wal-Mart, yet because it's right off the highway, it's still in business. Then in came the Home Depot, Starbucks, and Targets, and now its a small corporate hellhole. What can we here do about it? Nothing. We've complained about it, argued that there needs to be more fairness for local businesses, which is what my town was founded on, but all we're getting is more of the same companies adding their little branches all about. As boring as this town was, we Mantecans were damn proud of it, and now it's all turned to mush.

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Jeku
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Posted: 17th May 2006 18:38
We're back to square one. People drive the market. If Wal-Mart is hell, then don't shop there. Obviously if they had no customers, *they* would go out of business.

Quote: "How much profit do you need to turn over to have "enough?""


The sky's the limit. Why put a maximum on profit? That's ridiculous.

Quote: "You know me better than to assume I'd ever say that, and I know you better than to assume that's where you're coming from in life"


I just wanted to make sure, because most of the liberals I've spoken with assume that I'm already setup, so I can't say anything about the poor, etc.

Seppuku Arts
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Posted: 17th May 2006 19:41
Quote: "If Wal-Mart is hell, then don't shop there."


I've never been to Asda (UK walmart place) but I wouldn't want to work there, as being an American business, it uses American policies like, workers aren't allowed to date, which would annoy me, as when I was working out of woolworths...Sophi...maybe not

Is it true in every walmart there is a soul of somesort if you destroy it, all of the brainwashed zombies of walmart wake up and the shop implodes? Or have I been watching too much south park?

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Matt Rock
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Posted: 17th May 2006 21:28
Quote: "If Wal-Mart is hell, then don't shop there. Obviously if they had no customers, *they* would go out of business."

Typical consumers don't think of the long-term effects of their purchases before they shop. They're just out looking for a "better deal," and by the time they realize what their money is doing to local businesses the damage has been done and the community has passed the point of no return. I hear that from a lot of people... "jeesh, I didn't realize that buying a computer desk and a bunch of DVD's forced that place to go out of business." Well... it did. Wal-Mart can mass produce, whereas smaller mom-&-pop shops can't. So, in turn, Wal-Mart can release cheaper goods (both monetarily and quality-wise), and the mom & pop shops can't compete with the costs, so they close, as we already discussed before. Wal-Mart prides itself on its growth, thinking that destroying local businesses is cool, fun, whatever goes through their heads. But then you hear stories like Saikoro's... small town gets eaten alive by Wal-Mart and they have no method of fending for themselves... you have to be completely heartless to agree that it's a good way to run a business. I'll never understand why people can be that greedy.

Quote: "The sky's the limit. Why put a maximum on profit? That's ridiculous."

Wal-Mart turns over billions of dollars a year. Would it be so wrong if they offered health benefits? Just because it's the "standard" doesn't mean they need to live to that standard... why not expand and be the better corporation? And yes, they're a franchise, but to acquire the franchise license you need to meet their corporate standards, and those standards aren't only selfish, they're foolish... destroy an entire community and ruin the lives of generations to come so the upper 0.1% can have big houses (plural, more than one)? Seriously, supporting business practices like that doesn't make a lick of sense to me.

Wal-Mart wants to become the Microsoft of the shopping industry. That makes me sick. If I released an OS I would openly welcome competition. I would endorse people to come out and try to make their own systems, and I would try my best to work with all of them to make our software cross-compatible. Microsoft does the exact opposite and doesn't allow consumers any choice in how their computers work. The only option Microsoft offers is to not use a computer. And as long as people continue to support such aweful business practices, monopolization will continue to thrive. Didn't you study BUSINESS ETHICS in that business class? on dictionary.com the definition of Ethics is (and I c&p):
Quote: "The study of the general nature of morals and of the specific moral choices to be made by a person; moral philosophy. / The rules or standards governing the conduct of a person or the members of a profession: medical ethics."

When we start ignoring business ethics and allow corporations like these to run the planet, it will, as a fact, destroy the global economy for future generations. Competition, as history has proven repeatedly, is a good thing, and we should be endorsing that. Is their a solution to Wal-Mart problem? Shy of an international boycott, I doubt it. But that doesn't mean we should praise them. If anything, it's up to our generation to find a solution, not bombard them with love and affection. The ball's in our court.


"In an interstellar burst, I'm back to save the universe"
geecee3
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Posted: 17th May 2006 21:39
look,
back in the day we could use our computers safley, now every tom dick and harry has a computer and thinks its a way to get free stuff, computers were here before the 'digital and streaming media age' so dont mess with the hardware just to suit business. what happened to the customer is allways right. I like the aussie approach, you can mod your ps2 or whatever till your hearts content, but its still illegal to copy the software to run on it, tighter penalties for pirates are whats needed. not hardware encryption. after all you bought the hardware and should be allowed to fully expliot it's potential as you see fit(within reason). think of it as a car. and see the light. i'm sorry sir you cant have your super cool alloys, and these cars must run on pertol produced by megacorp OIL. they're not FIAT certified alloys and your BP petrol constitutes an offence. this is a joke and an evil move on behalf of preserving billion dollar profits. its sick.

but nobody will actually take a stand, we'll sit back and moan about it, watching it happen, being dictated to by big business and their greedy ways. protect protect protect, whatever happened to give give give.


my 2 bobs worth.

Ohd Chinese Ploverb say : Wise Eskimo, not eat yerrow snow.
Seppuku Arts
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Posted: 17th May 2006 22:49
Quote: "I like the aussie approach, you can mod your ps2 or whatever till your hearts content, but its still illegal to copy the software to run on it, tighter penalties for pirates are whats needed."


I like that, 'aussie' and 'pirate' makes me think of Wigget.



Quote: "what happened to the customer is allways right."

I'm suprised this hasn't been considered in any of these petty arguments, the customer is always right, if they are not satified with their product, then they are entitled to complain and say what they want about it, yey Tesco's bread sux!! and doesn't stay fresh for very long!! Okay, I'll calm down about the bread...

Yey! I removed the sig...
A Llama called Dalai
soapyfish
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Posted: 17th May 2006 22:59
Quote: "I'll calm down about the bread..."


1.Give stale bread to birds
2.Allow cat to catch bird
3.Enter Tescos
4.Place bird in box of birdseye fish fingers
5.Sue Tesco, get rich and hire your own bread chef.

Here's to the crazy ones.
Seppuku Arts
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Posted: 17th May 2006 23:23
Quote: "1.Give stale bread to birds"


Well I suppose its better than giving them toothpaste

Quote: "2.Allow cat to catch bird"


Which one, there's 20 of them, seriously



Quote: "4.Place bird in box of birdseye fish fingers"


Or just the bird's eye, meaning I get bird's eye fish fingers, quite literally

Quote: "5.Sue Tesco, get rich and hire your own bread chef."

Or spend the money on myself and buy Hovis or Sainsbury's bread instead

Yey! I removed the sig...
A Llama called Dalai
Matt Rock
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Posted: 17th May 2006 23:34
All of this bread talk has me confused


"In an interstellar burst, I'm back to save the universe"
Seppuku Arts
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Posted: 17th May 2006 23:56
Quote: "All of this bread talk has me confused"


Will crumpets leave you off less confused?

Yey! I removed the sig...
A Llama called Dalai
Jeku
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Posted: 18th May 2006 03:09
Quote: "Wal-Mart can mass produce, whereas smaller mom-&-pop shops can't. So, in turn, Wal-Mart can release cheaper goods (both monetarily and quality-wise), and the mom & pop shops can't compete with the costs, so they close, as we already discussed before."


What do you want to do, penalize success? If a company does "too good" by your figures, fine 'em a bunch of money and tell them to stop growing? North America was built by industry, and you want to stifle innovation. Nice

Quote: "Would it be so wrong if they offered health benefits?"


That's not for me to decide. I have *never* seen a minimum-wage employer offer health benefits--- EVER. If Wal-Mart would rather keep that money for their coffers, then don't work there. Plain and simple. Let's see you get your health benefits at the rundown, overpriced mom-and-pop store :-P

Quote: "Didn't you study BUSINESS ETHICS in that business class?"


As a matter of fact I did. CIS 485, as a matter of fact. Listen, *your* ethics don't have to be the same as everyone else's ethics. Your mommy instilled values in you, and so did mine, but they don't have to match. I hate when people try to cram their morales down my throat like they're on some kind of higher plain than me. (not saying you, just your... umm.... *type* )

Quote: "Shy of an international boycott, I doubt it."


In history there are examples of huge companies that have been dwindled down to nothing, so it's not like it can't happen. If you really hate big corporations (even though they pay a ton of tax which goes toward social programs, etc.) then write your congress members letters every day asking them to change corporate law. Or run for senator yourself. What's stopping you??

jasonhtml
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Posted: 18th May 2006 07:22
OMG! IF this somehow passes ill make an underground, secret society of computer programers who build custom computers for anyone that doesnt want to be in the grasp of M$'s power... Ya....

Deathquest (MMORPG)
Deathquest Thread: http://forum.thegamecreators.com/?m=forum_view&t=61108&b=8
DD Studios Website: http://www.geocities.com/jasonhtml/
Matt Rock
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Posted: 18th May 2006 10:58
Quote: "What do you want to do, penalize success? If a company does "too good" by your figures, fine 'em a bunch of money and tell them to stop growing? North America was built by industry, and you want to stifle innovation. Nice "

I don't want to penalize success, I want to penalize the methods that said success was reached by. You shouldn't be allowed to ruthelessly attempt to monopolize any industry whatsoever. Whatever happened to checks and balances? IBM was HUGE back in the day in the home computer industry, but I didn't see them attempting to squeeze every ounce of life out of their competition. And where are they now? A multi-billion dollar company who DOESN'T screw over their competition to get ahead.

Quote: " have *never* seen a minimum-wage employer offer health benefits--- EVER. If Wal-Mart would rather keep that money for their coffers, then don't work there. Plain and simple. Let's see you get your health benefits at the rundown, overpriced mom-and-pop store :-P"

Radioshack. Major corporation pays their employees a little tiny bit more than minimum wage (about the same amount that Wal-Mart offers in wages, in fact). What do they offer? Health insurance. Wal-Mart could buy out every Radioshack in the world and still turn over several billions of dollars, let alone offer health insurance without really denting their profits, but do they? No. Why? Because they're evil, plain and simple. Joe's Drum Shop. Never heard of it? It's a little music store here in Binghamton, owned by a guy named Joe. he isn't in business anymore due to family problems (wal-mart had nothing to do with it, since they don't sell drum kits), but what did he offer to his two employees, excluding himself? Health benefits. And I know of at least two other locally-owned businesses who offer the same. One of those two, a little pizzeria, not only offers health benefits but dental, too. So yeah, I'm pretty sure Wal-Mart could try a little harder to treat their employees with the respect they deserve. Even a greeter works for a living, albeit it mindlessly simple work. But what about the people in the back who literally do all of the heavy lifting? Those guys (and girls) deserve health benefits, seeing as how they could get hurt on the job and the company forces them to sign waivers stating they won't sue if an accident should occur.

Quote: "Listen, *your* ethics don't have to be the same as everyone else's ethics. Your mommy instilled values in you, and so did mine, but they don't have to match. I hate when people try to cram their morales down my throat like they're on some kind of higher plain than me. "

Don't kill, don't steal, don't rape, don't lie... there's my four basic rules in life and I don't intend to (A) break them, or (B) socialize with people who do. I'm pretty sure most of us on here believe in those ethics too. In business, ethics exist to attempt to defend the little guy from the big guy (and vice-versa if somehow that should ever come up), to set up a silent code wherein you don't destroy other businesses just to make a name for yourself. And if you twist those ethics, those moral foundations, and re-conform them "LEGO-style" into some oddly-shaped misinterpretation, then the bi-product of your toying with generally-accepted ethical codes of conduct is the destruction of said codes completely. There is NO moral justification for destroying a local business. None. Zip. Nada. And those aren't my morals... none of us were alive when the codebook of business ethical conduct was written. In college, *I* learned that ethics are, in a nutshell, a means to protect consumers from companies, companies from consumers, and companies from other companies. And we discussed Wal-Mart a lot in that class for their lack of any morality whatsoever. It may have only been a lowly 116 class, but the general idea I walked away with was that you don't screw over the little guy just because you can, at every possible juncture that presents itself.

Quote: "If you really hate big corporations (even though they pay a ton of tax which goes toward social programs, etc.) then write your congress members letters every day asking them to change corporate law. Or run for senator yourself. What's stopping you??
"

I don't hate all of them. Some of 'em are alright. The afforementioned Radioshack doesn't lash out against their competition... they openly endorse their employees to suggest other stores, preferably local ones, to customers. And their a huge corporation with thousands of stores. McDonalds, Burger King, and Wendy's fued constantly, but they don't attempt to shut each other down. They move into a local area but rarely in the food industry does a fastfood chain shut down a local joint... anyway, they don't kill each other (just us with their naughty food), and they actually provide options when they're all grouped up like that.

I wrote to my congressmen several times, but no reply. My governor, Pataki, is a power-tool so I wouldn't even bother. And Hillary Clinton? I may be a hardcore firebrand democrat leftist liberal extremist, but her friend I ain't. And of course I tried sending an e-mail to George W. Bush, mostly to be funny while hanging out with friends, which of course got the standard "The President loves you, fight terror" response. The only response from a government official I've ever gotten was from Chuck Shumer, where at least a secretary responded with a pre-written "he'll look into it" letter. When I turn 35 I'm going to run for president, lose, drink for two years, spend 2 years sobering up, then run again That's my ultimate goal.


"In an interstellar burst, I'm back to save the universe"
Saikoro
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Posted: 18th May 2006 11:32
I have to agree that the business ethics that some corporations take where they decide that certain maneuvers would work better because it would take down opposing competition are unjust. Granted, if a business opened next to another and because of that, the second business shut down, it would be fine so long as that wasn't the intent of the first business to position a store there in the first place.

Some companies care about their employees and some don't, and it seems to be the bigger ones that don't. In'n'Out Burger offers their employees $10/hr starting wages along with benefits. McDonalds is minimum wage. I used to work at Janis Music, which is a local, very small music store. Even they tried their best to give as much pay as they could to their employees, by offering quick raise rates based on merit. But when I worked at Target or Mervyns, they gave you a raise once every 6 months which were generally between 5 and 20 cents, no benefits.

I'll also have you know that there is MUCH MUCH MUCH MUCH more to the job than greeting people and breaking boxes. I worked as a Cart Attendant for Target, and not only was I outside pushing carts in traffic during rain and heat, I also cleaned up EVERY spill in the store, took out the trash, compressed and destroyed all empty boxes and hazardous items, cleaned the carts and bathrooms (oh the stories I could tell ), and helped customers with finding items, item selections, and carrying out larger items such as televisions and furniture and what have you. For minimum wage, no benefits, and complete disrespect from a good portion of the staff and a 90% majority of the direct administration. Needless to say, the local company Janis treated me much better.

So what causes Wal-Mart and Target to stay alive? My town has been slowly transformed into a shopping hub, where you can clearly see both those names while on the highway. Living in the center of the California Central Valley, we get a lot of cross traffic from San Fransisco, Sacramento, the rest of the Bay Area, and San Jose, so naturally, by the highways that cross through us would be a perfect choice for a store. Unfortunately, companies like the aforementioned decided to fund and build up entire shopping sections right off the highway of their branches of stores, which ultimately means that when people drop by, they no longer shop at the mom and pop stores because they won't see them. These shopping centers were put up as shields around our town, and no commuters can shop here anymore because they'll see their oh-so-favorite store and go there instead, rather than purchasing quality down the street. The only local businesses which even do remotely well (and they STILL struggle immensly) are ones owned by people who have deep roots in Manteca and a nice chunk of money. Raymus, the man who basically sold a very nice portion of houses into Manteca, opened up a sports entertainment center with bowling alley and arcade, movie theaters, and other town specific things. He also gave back dollar after dollar to help support this town. I'd be damned if I ever see a dollar from Wal-Mart, however.</endrant>

"One World, One Web, One Program" -Microsoft ad.
"Ein Volk, Ein Reich, Ein Führer"(One People, One Kingdom, One Leader)-Adolf Hitler.
Jeku
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Posted: 18th May 2006 18:42
Quote: "Granted, if a business opened next to another and because of that, the second business shut down, it would be fine so long as that wasn't the intent of the first business to position a store there in the first place."


And what dream world do you live in? If mom-and-pop burger joint closes because fat tony's burgers moved in across the street, you can bet your life savings that fat tony did it on purpose.

Matt Rock
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Posted: 18th May 2006 22:05 Edited at: 18th May 2006 22:05
Quote: "Unfortunately, companies like the aforementioned decided to fund and build up entire shopping sections right off the highway of their branches of stores, which ultimately means that when people drop by, they no longer shop at the mom and pop stores because they won't see them. "

That's sort of what they're doing here. Binghamton is a major traffic artery for New York State, with 81, 86, and 88 all merging here and only here It's sort of the "gateway" to new york city for anyone coming down from upstate, and now those stores are doing that. Luckily, we're a pretty big city and our proximity to NYC means that most of our thru-traffic is from there, and in turn they prefer local over global shopping centers. But it's still putting a strain on local businesses.

Quote: "And what dream world do you live in? If mom-and-pop burger joint closes because fat tony's burgers moved in across the street, you can bet your life savings that fat tony did it on purpose."

That's not always true. What if mom-and-pop burger was around, and then fat tony's pizza moved in across the street. But as the years went by, people discovered the Fat Tony sucked at making pizza, so Fat Tony started selling other stuff to stay on his feet... hamburgers, spiedies, hot dogs, and deli meats. Then, he strikes gold with his burgers and people totally start loving them. He makes so much money from said burgers that he decides to change the name of his joint to Fat Tony's Burgers. You might even go so far as to say that Fat Tony could have had a sit-down with mom-and-pop from the adjacent restaurant to discuss how his restaurant's name change would effect their business. And before you say it, yes this has happened before... often. At least here anyway. Small businesses like that often converse with their competition and even discuss pricing.

My first job ever was working in a pizza/ deli called Guiseppe's, on Leroy St. in Binghamton. Down the street you had Leroy Pizza, and in the opposite direction, you had Gravis's, who also sold pizza. Like Sicilian Mafiosos, the owners of these three places would meet together over home-cooked food, every other tuesday, to discuss how the neighborhood market is going and to talk about prices and whatnot. And I've heard of similar situations happening in other places, too. My girlfriend owned her own Massage Therapy business when she lived in Coeur D' Alene Idaho/ Spokane Washington, and she frequently conversed with other therapists to discuss their prices, how busy business can be, etc. AND, like in any other small local business, they'd often trade clients. If I went into Saikoro's music store when he worked there and wanted a Gibson Les Paul, and they didn't have one, I'm sure they would encourage their employees to direct me to a different local business that would. And that's one of the many true benefits of local businesses.

Why are local businesses better for local economies, before anyone asks (I'm sure Jeku knows this better than I do but this is targeted at the people who don't really know)? I'm sure someone will wonder about this at some point, because it seems like small businesses, at first glance, don't have as much to offer as big ones. When Wal-Mart or Starbucks or Target or whoever makes money, only a small amount of it gets recirculated locally through paychecks. The rest of it is shipped off to Corporate. Some of these people are paid directly from corporate, so in turn, no local money recirculates through the local economy. And these megolithic businesses don't buy their supplies and whatnot locally, they have them shipped in from other places. So, in turn, they eat up the local economy, which I'm sure you can imagine is very, very bad. It's never good to have a cashcow eating away at local industry. Microsoft may be evil in my opinion, but at least they don't do that (and yes, before anyone says this, you can buy Microsoft products in little local stores, in my area anyway). See my point yet as to why I think corporations like that are wrong?


"In an interstellar burst, I'm back to save the universe"
Saikoro
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Posted: 19th May 2006 02:33
Well said Matt. You'd be suprised Jeku at how often local businesses converse with each other. They're almost friends, they even manage their prices so that no one eats out another store, and though they might not get the most money, it certainly keeps them alive. As much strife as people may give Microsoft for dominating the computer OS market industry among other things, they haven't yet opened a chain of stores to sell their products at, which allows them to give local economies more strength. It's also a wise business move, because 1. people won't hate them for damaging local economies, and 2. if people have that much more money, then Microsoft may get it back. That's proper business ethic while still maintaining a strong business and profit. Starbucks, however, sells their products ONLY at Starbucks stores, and keeps the money in the business rather than the local economies. As unimportant as they may seem, local economies are the true lifeblood of people, and if that gets damaged the people that REALLY matter, you and me and everyone trying to live, get damaged.

"One World, One Web, One Program" -Microsoft ad.
"Ein Volk, Ein Reich, Ein Führer"(One People, One Kingdom, One Leader)-Adolf Hitler.

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